Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Battle of the Bulge => Feedback => Bastogne => Topic started by: Toddel on 16-07-2011, 22:07:58
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
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The P-47 feels quite awkward for this map, due to visual range and the speed of the plane + it's slow maneuvering speeds.
Tends to slam into the ground or a tree after it has managed to do a attack run.
Maybe another 76 sherman instead of this vehicle would benefit the US team better.
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You need to have Goljatti flying that thing and you will come into other conclusions.
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Replace a 75mm jumbo with a 76mm jumbo. And the ticket bleed for allies is ridiculous
Ticket bleed should only start when all flags BUT bastogne is captured.. And the tanks the allies then get are not up to the task AT all.
Also the Jumbo should be fixed. 1s1k from PZIV is ridiculous from the front.
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It used to have a 76mm Jumbo but there were a lot of talk about the Jumbo's being on all of the three bulge maps and one of them being 76mm which was very rare, even more so than the 75mm. So if we have Jumbo's, they are most likely going to be 75mm.
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So for the allies "historical accuracy" is used....ye got it
It is still heavily needed here guys.. So far i havent saw a single match of Bastogne being won. The front flags are very easily capped in wich the germans only need to hold the middle flag to win. And the armor is simply Not enough to counterattack, let alone hold the last flags
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I agree. The whole fighting around the town of Bastogne is rarely taken place because the germans just need to capture 3 flags to have americans bleeding.
Nevertheless Bastogne is one great map. It feels so great to play this map on the 126 player server. You got fighting with infantery in the woods. Shooting at Panzers with the AT guns. Few housefighting situations. Tanks driving all around. Heavy Artillery to destroy the advancing german Panthers. The map feels really great.
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We had small discussion on Hslan on the other day. So, why the planes?
BoB, or Ardennes Offensive, is notorius of the bad wheather which gave Axis upper hand. Why? Because Allied air superiority couldn't be used. Needless to say, so couldn't the Axis. On map the wheather is bad (= visibility is low) like it was in real life. Airforce was used during the Offensive, but fighters only when the wheather was clear. Therefore it should not be hard to induce there should be no planes in the map.
These are the facts, but of course the map maker has freedom to use his artistic liberties and dictartorship on his own creation.
P.S. That's was the critical feedback part. The map is awesome piece of work.
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The P-47 feels quite awkward for this map, due to visual range and the speed of the plane + it's slow maneuvering speeds..
The view distance can be increased if players keep having problems with flying.
So for the allies "historical accuracy" is used..
The 76mm Jumbo was indeed replaced with a regular Jumbo because it was too rare. However, I can imagine that another Hellcat could have the same impact on the balance of this map.
We had small discussion on Hslan on the other day. So, why the planes?
You have to understand that this map is not just about the siege. It's about the entire battle, from the fighting that took place before the 101st even arrived to the US counter attack that lasted until January. During the first days the weather was bad, that is true. But later in the battle the weather improved and the P47s flew whenever possible.
I tried to recreate this by giving the US team planes that spawn only after several flags have been captured. And the German plane represents the bombings that the Luftwaffe carried out during the battle. I'll admit it's still debatable how many planes should be on this map (if any). I think the current amount is reasonable at least.
(one of the sources I used: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ardennes:_Battle_of_the_Bulge/Chapter_XIX)
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The map itself is brilliant , the balance is slightly axis favoured.
Another hellcat should do the trick.
But even more crucial than the vehicular component is the flag layout. Its too easy for axis to capture mont and in public games allied team frequently do not defend mont AT ALL only to have their main base capped and then are wondering "hey wait a sec waht da hell just happened !!!1! ". Mont is the only most important point in the map and allies constantly dont bother defending it.
I dont know how that can be balanced, it needs to be shown on the map to have more importance then other flags , or , dont allow main base cap unless mont and one other flank is secured. Or something because still havent seen an allied win but have seen some very close ones.
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If the map is intended to be about the whole battle, and if we want the fighting to move into Bastogne proper more often, then I would suggest that after the "front" flags fall, Allied armour stops spawning (representing the siege), then a few minutes after Mont falls, will start respawning in Bastogne to represent the relief column.
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To make the map more about bastogne that makes sense but the last thing needed is to give the axis more of an advantage, axis win on this map 99% of the time anyway.
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You are basing those stats on what?
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You are basing those stats on what?
Basing my opinion on what I have seen, I have played it more than a few times an not seen an allied win yet, same as eppeldorf. Mabye its just a crazy coincidence and allies win half the time but im yet to see it.
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Why then have I seen mostly Allied wins on Bastogne (except when IRISHFORCE won the map for Germany)? Quite coincidentally, I have seen mostly Allied wins of Eppeldorf as well.
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Why then have I seen mostly Allied wins on Bastogne (except when IRISHFORCE won the map for Germany)? Quite coincidentally, I have seen mostly Allied wins of Eppeldorf as well.
That is very interesting, I cannot believe it until I see it !
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If the map is intended to be about the whole battle, and if we want the fighting to move into Bastogne proper more often, then I would suggest that after the "front" flags fall, Allied armour stops spawning (representing the siege), then a few minutes after Mont falls, will start respawning in Bastogne to represent the relief column.
During the siege there were still US tanks in and around Bastogne. Especially tank destroyers like the Hellcat played a key role in defending the town. So removing all of them is not needed.
I've seen both teams win. And I expect that the US team will defend the key flags better once they know the map better as well.
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Bleed on allies is so ridiculous. The first two flags are almost impossible to hold as allies because of little to no armored support and low zooka number vs a HUGE armored force.
Then axis need 1 more flag and they have basically won, AND if they do take MONT theres no back capping allowed on the first 2 flags. Terrible map balance imo. Axis have to be extremly poor in comparison to allies to lose on this map. With even teams there no competition axis win.
Even if axis take and hold mont for like 5 minutes allies have lost because the bleed in so harsh.
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Bleed on allies is so ridiculous. The first two flags are almost impossible to hold as allies because of little to no armored support and low zooka number vs a HUGE armored force.
Then axis need 1 more flag and they have basically won, AND if they do take MONT theres no back capping allowed on the first 2 flags. Terrible map balance imo. Axis have to be extremly poor in comparison to allies to lose on this map. With even teams there no competition axis win.
Even if axis take and hold mont for like 5 minutes allies have lost because the bleed in so harsh.
first I love the map, it is very well done except no actions at Bastogne most of the time. German thrust could be stronger but less Allied Bleed.
I don't think you are supposed to hold the first two flags for the whole round - your job should be to delay enemy advance for as long as possible (bleed their tickets).
I almost never lose on this map as the Americans. Maybe I could share some tips.
1. use the AT gun in the front church flag: don't face it directly to enemy hide it in a dirty corner that couldn't be HEed or artied that easily.
2. use the church tower (not the topmost floor), enemy tanks don't dare to charge in (1s1k from above) if you are with a zook up there. Plus it is safe from artillery fire and is very difficult to HE.
3. if you want to do zooking after the front flags have fallen, get into the forest.
4. Mont is incredibly easy to defend, there are only 3 ways to get into the inner perimeter, you could easily lock one up by facing an MG there, in case of smoke just keep shooting you have enough ammo to shoot until the smoke subside. Another two could be defended with some effort, again, you have an incredible advantage of cover as the defending side. Hold onto mont and you can't lose that easily. To defeat a decent defending force at mont the Germans have to mass armour with the best infantry squads.
5. most AT guns are left unused despite they are placed in relatively dirty places (the 57mms)
6. Avoid heavy casualties by defending-to-death-under-heavy-bombardment (will lose you the map). Fall back (and then come back with force) when needed. Sometimes you must let the KT to go to the middle of the map to kill it. (else you have no chance flanking it)
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The most common mistake the German team does is that after the first two flags fall, instead of attacking Mont, they attack the two other north/south flags that are essentially a sideshow (I would even say a "decoy" or "diversion"). Concentrating all available forces on Mont (apart from what is needed to defend the first two flags), and once that is capped, exploiting the breakthrough in the spirit of Blitzkrieg and zergrushing into Bastogne itself (moving the defenders from the first two flags to Mont as they just became uncaps - never mind if there's Yanks there!) is the key.
However, what you usually see is huge combined arms battles in the northern and southern woods with only a few lone backcappers trying to ninja the Mont flag. Also, even if Germany manages to (accidentally) cap Mont, people keep spawning on the first two flags for all eternity. Fortunately, there's usually plenty of equally inept American players as well, who keep attacking them instead of retaking Mont.
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So do you feel that the intended tactics are understood by the majority of the players?
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So do you feel that the intended tactics are understood by the majority of the players?
understanding is totally another story - sometimes you understand something is right but it just can't be done... you know, usually in pubbie people just love to stay alive camping/killing rather than to fight for victory.
mont is surprisingly unpopular for epic combat (those usually only happen in the first two flags) - I think people are just uncomfortable to attack something in the centre without securing the flanks. Especially for tanks - lone APC to the front usually don't worked.
I have never see any epic defense around Bastogne - there are some reasons, one being that the Americans are bleeding, another being that Germans are unlikely to rush to Bastogne with brute force - usually they are capped by sneaky infantries.
The main reason why the Germans dislike brute force attack of Bastogne is maybe because their armour thrust is really lacking - you have to drive tanks half-way across map to stage an attack facing brutal TDs like hellcats and brutal tanks like jumbos. (which means really easy to get killed)
People love to stack at the first flags - I could think as that they are excellent in terms of availability of cover compared to the other flags.
Just some thoughts - would it be better if the first two flags would be un-recap that would also provide forward tank spawns? That way the Germans don't need to waste men on defending them but just to charge forward with all they get. (which is the essence of Battle of the Bulge?) This way you could move bleed of Americans to Bastogne, in exchange, Germans should get fewer tickets (probably start with less tickets than the Americans so they would have the strong desire to push Americans to extinction).
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This came up today on hslan during Ramelle (Irish was the one who said it)---
---just how epic would it be if Bastogne had 1000 or 2000 tickets in the beginning? Right now, the round is over "too soon" all too often, considering the hueg size of the map.
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thx keloma, I use to say this often cause its true.
So what are my suggestions:
More tickets! Same ticket amount like Sidi. Map is hugh, have lots of tanks = more kills per death.
New pushcode. At the moment is just -sorry- stupid. CApping on of the first flag, then Mont, then victory --
What I would like too see:
1st Line: South and North first line Flag- After both capped, 2nd Line opens.
2nd Line: all 3 flags. After all capped Bastonge is open. When all 3 are capped, high tank reinforcements for allied to make a nice counterattack.
3rd Line: Bastonge.
Imo the best push code is still on Goodwood, compared with the tank reinforcement it makes the map really interesting.
Do allies cap both 1st line flags, and risk a german counterattack?
Do allied just cap one of the flags, cap the city and hold it?
Do allied cap 1st and 3rd line, and leave the city alone, to confuse german troops?
Bastonge could get such a extreme good map if just the ticket code, and push map is made better!
Its sad that its always over when Germans get close to Bastonge, or when Allies try to reattack.
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The ticket amount might be a nice idea, but the push has been tested extensively, and this was considered the best one. Of course all maps can be changed, but now the Bastogne push has something unique to it. If it'd be changed according to what you write, it will just be "white Goodwood".
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but this way all flags would get some attention. Now they are just capped, and used as spawmpoints. Noone really set up a good defence.s
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but this way all flags would get some attention. Now they are just capped, and used as spawmpoints. Noone really set up a good defence.s
But that happens on every map where a team wants to attack only and forgets to defend the flags they already have. So maybe that is something to put in the /Tactics forum.
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well I still think that you should need both first line flags to get to Mont.
Mont is the masterflag in the map, and can be capped to fast atm.
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well I still think that you should need both first line flags to get to Mont.
Mont is the masterflag in the map, and can be capped to fast atm.
That is not a bad idea.
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well I still think that you should need both first line flags to get to Mont.
Mont is the masterflag in the map, and can be capped to fast atm.
This would be a great and positive change in the map yes
Also a hellcat at start....the tank spawnraping is so massive in the beginning and you have very little weapons at your disposal
Bastogne had Hellcats at there disposal
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well I still think that you should need both first line flags to get to Mont.
Mont is the masterflag in the map, and can be capped to fast atm.
This would be a great and positive change in the map yes
Also a hellcat at start....the tank spawnraping is so massive in the beginning and you have very little weapons at your disposal
Bastogne had Hellcats at there disposal
I think you have Hellcat since the beginning...
I have a question - is it a map bug or sth connected with server that when Germans cap all flag and kill all Americans, map doesn't want to end?
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@Kwiot: I think the bleed for the Allies id just much to low? Has it already been fixed Devs?
And I completly agree with Irish the Pushcode makes the map way to fast, its basicly an invitation to steamrole the Allieds. Its not that the allied team would be stupid if they get steamrolled, its just easy.... the germans can completly ignore two falgs when Mont and the first two flags are capped. I dont think that can make any sense toanyone.
Also a change to the pushcode wouldnt make it just like white goodwood in my opinion. Goodwood is all about Cagny in my opinion and Cagny is very different from Mont. It has two command posts it is heavily defended and has most of the time verylittel tank support. The Arty can also play a big role.
Mont in comparision is not very well defended in my opinion. As pretty much all paks on Bastogne the ones at Mont are pretty useless. They just cant stop the heavy Germans armor, they can be taken out very easy by infantry from the forests. (Which is okay in my opinion since Allies have enough tanks and there are forests all around which make an ambush easy) And the major difference is probably just the seize of the command posts Cagny is huge Mont really small and the spawn points are far away. I think Arty also doesnt play a big role on Bastogne, I have never really noticed it.
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@Kwiot: I think the bleed for the Allies id just much to low? Has it already been fixed Devs?
And I completly agree with Irish the Pushcode makes the map way to fast, its basicly an invitation to steamrole the Allieds. Its not that the allied team would be stupid if they get steamrolled, its just easy.... the germans can completly ignore two falgs when Mont and the first two flags are capped. I dont think that can make any sense toanyone.
Also a change to the pushcode wouldnt make it just like white goodwood in my opinion. Goodwood is all about Cagny in my opinion and Cagny is very different from Mont. It has two command posts it is heavily defended and has most of the time verylittel tank support. The Arty can also play a big role.
Mont in comparision is not very well defended in my opinion. As pretty much all paks on Bastogne the ones at Mont are pretty useless. They just cant stop the heavy Germans armor, they can be taken out very easy by infantry from the forests. (Which is okay in my opinion since Allies have enough tanks and there are forests all around which make an ambush easy) And the major difference is probably just the seize of the command posts Cagny is huge Mont really small and the spawn points are far away. I think Arty also doesnt play a big role on Bastogne, I have never really noticed it.
Noone defends mont because it is boring to do so, else two dug-in squads could easily repel most attacks.
The side-flags are not very important as they are not quite useful in threatening the flanks of the advancing Germans - in this game you simply don't need to care about your flanks being threatened or not while in real life it must be a dangerous business to do such a kind of attack without securing the flanks.
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We got the following issue today - round did not end despite all flags being captured by Germans and all Americans being dead. Here's a video of this round, roughly at the moment when the guy, who shot it, looks at scoreboard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmdg2Kai-V4&feature=player_detailpage#t=889s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmdg2Kai-V4&feature=player_detailpage#t=889s)
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Seems like the map isn't using the airborne kitset as it should be...
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It uses the UC_airborne player model set (u stands for us, c for cold)
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I'm talking about the kitmesh, not the playermodel. UC playermodels differ only in the insignia really, whereas the kitmesh is the equipment on a soldier. And currently the default (army one, with Haversacks) is used, not the one in the airborne subfolder (which has Musette bags instead for all kits).
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I think that one wasn't even added to bulge player models.
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It was, it basically is just a copy of the Normandy (PHL) ones.
in map's tmp.con:
rem *** KITSETS ***
run ../../objects/kits/uc/uc_kits.inc
should be:
rem *** KITSETS ***
run ../../objects/kits/uc/airborne/uc_kits.inc
and somewhere before that should be a line:
rem $fh2_kitgeomsubfolder=uw:airborne
I guess. I don't know if it requires repacking or some other changes are needed, because if I do this, then the airborne kitset is loaded up correctly, but it messes up the flags on the minimap.
Oh and when someone changes this, he should also look at the helmet textures. Some hearts/spades would seem adequate for this kitset (101st AB) :)
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No radio in both HQ's, but there is one in Mont. Add some to the HQ's
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Also this dug-in position doesnt look good.
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2439/screen069.png)
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About the non reproduceable bug - well let's say we reproduced it. On several days as can be seen here:
(http://www10.pic-upload.de/thumb/20.03.13/i6u2q4yw1tri.png) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-18590749/screen005.png.html)
(http://www7.pic-upload.de/thumb/20.03.13/1t3zsxd7y9j6.png) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-18590750/screen007.png.html)
(http://www10.pic-upload.de/thumb/20.03.13/oo2f6hlieyn.png) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-18590736/screen009.png.html)
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guys, wtf. I casually walk into that building with my M1919A4 thinking how awesome it will be once I deploy that baby in that hole in the wall I'm aiming at in the screen.. BUT WAIT, that room is closed off by stupid doors.. that hole would've been a perfect spot for that tripod, I don't think I will ever understand why the mapper chose to negate it.
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2.46 changelog for Bastogne 64
- Fixed the long evading bug of a round not ending when the Germans capture all the flags and the Americans are all dead.
- Fixed the allied reinforcements keep spawning when the Germans capture all the flags.
- Fixed the allied reinforcements sometimes not spawning until the Germans capture one of the last two flags.
- Fixed a couple of dummy flag poles visible to pilots.
- Fixed players unable to enter the 2 M1919A4 tripods at Wardin and Mageret.
- Fixed one spawn point at Bastogne Outskirts being outside of the combat area.
- Team-locked spawn points at the American airfield.
- Changed the American kitmesh to the airborne one (reported by McCloskey (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=15803.msg267664#msg267664)) (also affects Bastogne 32 and 16).
- Added some "decking" at Mont (the patio and the ladder entrance) to ease navigation and to prevent getting stuck in some slits (also affects Bastogne 16).
- Removed a tree and bush in a dug-in position (reported by Turkish007 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=15803.msg280402#msg280402)).
Minimap for reference:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/jgo4ly.jpg)
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(http://i.imgur.com/tPyJnro.jpg)
can we ged rid of these pointless planks? they are really annoying and makes harder to resupply.
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Best suggestion I've seen in a long time :)
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2.5 changelog for Bastogne 64
- Removed two lone trees right in front of the German runway as reported by Berkolok (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=15803.msg337010#msg337010).
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Hi, I have 1 small issue about object placing:
There is a tree right infront of the nebelwerfer, so that when you are zeroed in on wardin (the south flag that is usually well defended) your rockets are hitting that tree. could this tree be removed, please?
(https://i.postimg.cc/bGRzjNQd/bastogne-nebel-tree.png) (https://postimg.cc/bGRzjNQd)
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These little improvements make all the difference.