Author Topic: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea  (Read 4579 times)

Offline johnkeel105

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Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« on: 01-04-2009, 01:04:27 »
I brought this up on the old forum a long time ago. It is something that has stuck in my head for a while.

There is one battle location that is often missed with the Italians. It was shown in a quite short sequence of Captain Corelli's Mandolin. The battle was known as Operation Asche which was basicly a massive betrayl of the Italian troops by the Germans.

The Italians fought back against the Germans for a week on the small island of Cephalonia at the command of Captain Amos Pampaloni. The battle resulted in the deaths of over 5000 Italian soldiers. I believe that this important battle should be in Forgotten Hope 2.

It would be neat to see the Italian weapons used to fight off the Germans. I believe in addition to the aircraft attack on the island, the Germans landing on the island would make the map quite interesting.

So what do you guys think?
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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #1 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:36 »
Hmmm sounds like an interesting concept. But I am going to predict that you will get the same response that everyone else gets especially since the Italians are already in FH2.15. And that is to learn to map and and make it yourself. All the mapping devs are busy with Normandy maps and maps made off of someone else's idea generally either don't happen or tend to not be very good.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #2 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:17 »
I would rather like to see the battles of the Fallschirmjaeger against italian troops in rome.

Offline Schneider

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #3 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:58 »
Sound interesting, but I don't really get what's the betrayal in there? How can you betray someone you are fighting?

Offline johnkeel105

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #4 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:58 »
The Germans were allied with the Italians and then demanded the Italians surrender and turn in their arms. The Italians fought back with help from resistance and well, the Italians didn't win.
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Offline Schneider

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #5 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:13 »
Ah that's what you mean. However, if you watch the things from the other side of the fence, you could give a different estimation of who betrayed whom in both World Wars.  ;) But that is not topic of this thread.
If you feel like it, you should look into the modding section. One of the devs made some nice tutorials, feel free to ask for the link there.

Offline Torenico

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #6 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:30 »
Sounds like a cool idea. Since i started my current map.. im in love whit the Italians.

If nobody takes the Map.. i can. However.. more information about the Battle.. like the Map of the island or something.


Offline johnkeel105

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #7 on: 01-04-2009, 02:04:57 »
Well I don't have mapmaking skills but I can help you with research if you want to give it a shot. I think that would be awesome!

Edit:

http://johnkeel105.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=weapons&action=display&thread=354


A better description and the invasion map. I am sure there are better ones tho

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/apr/11/worlddispatch.philipwillan
« Last Edit: 01-04-2009, 03:04:17 by johnkeel105 »
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Offline Torenico

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #8 on: 01-04-2009, 03:04:07 »
Ok cool.

I will save this.. since its an interesting proyect. But unfortunely.. i think it requires -good- skills.

I may do it when the Italians gets more Equipment.. since 2.15=.. italian faction is a baby yet.


Offline johnkeel105

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #9 on: 01-04-2009, 07:04:09 »
I understand and think that is a great idea. We will keep this in mind til then!
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #10 on: 02-04-2009, 00:04:05 »
The Germans were allied with the Italians and then demanded the Italians surrender and turn in their arms. The Italians fought back with help from resistance and well, the Italians didn't win.

No, the italians switched sides, and the germans started disarming the Italian army units that they could, before they could start fighting.  Most of it happened peacefully.  These italians fought back.  If anyone betrayed anyone, it was the Italians for switching sides in the middle of WW2.  But even that is understandable considering the situation.  however it is stupid to think that the Italians were somehow just randomly attacked by the germans for no reason.

As for what happened after, there's no excuse for it.  The italian troops were mostly executed as traitors, under orders from Hitler.  Only 1,600 died in combat, 5000 were executed.  Twas a rather horrible massecre, and was perpetrated by one of the few nasty Wehrmacht divisions, the 1st Gebirgsjager.  Led by a full fledged nazi party member, it was not known for being nice.....=/  The executions were horrible, but the battle was almost nothing.

Offline silian

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #11 on: 02-04-2009, 01:04:44 »
The Invasion of Leros (Nov '43) would probably make a good map, Fallschirmjager and regular infantry versus Brits and Italians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leros

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #12 on: 02-04-2009, 16:04:10 »
The Germans were allied with the Italians and then demanded the Italians surrender and turn in their arms. The Italians fought back with help from resistance and well, the Italians didn't win.

No, the italians switched sides, and the germans started disarming the Italian army units that they could, before they could start fighting.  Most of it happened peacefully.  These italians fought back.  If anyone betrayed anyone, it was the Italians for switching sides in the middle of WW2.  But even that is understandable considering the situation.  however it is stupid to think that the Italians were somehow just randomly attacked by the germans for no reason.

As for what happened after, there's no excuse for it.  The italian troops were mostly executed as traitors, under orders from Hitler.  Only 1,600 died in combat, 5000 were executed.  Twas a rather horrible massecre, and was perpetrated by one of the few nasty Wehrmacht divisions, the 1st Gebirgsjager.  Led by a full fledged nazi party member, it was not known for being nice.....=/  The executions were horrible, but the battle was almost nothing.
Eheeehm? For what I know Heer officers could not join the Nazi party.
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Offline rattovolante

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #13 on: 02-04-2009, 17:04:12 »
Cephalonia and the similar events on other Italian-controlled Greek islands were a messy, nasty thing, and the Italian HQ (and the allies as well) have to share at least part of the responsibility.
The problem is that the Italian troops were under a German command, but after the armistice Italian HQ ordered them not to comply with orders from the German commands.

Thus when fighting ultimately broke out, the Italians were treated as armed mutineers (not PoWs), as they were resisting German orders. As such the officers were actually passible of death penalty and the soldiers of prisony. This was (probably) legitimate, although the debate on legitimacy of this treatment are probably moot, as there was a direct, explicit order from Berlin on that matter.

Anyway the extent to which the penalty was carried out was probably unheard-of: almost all officers of an entire division were executed. While most (all?) armies in WW1 and WW2 allowed death penalty for armed mutiny, it was most often commuted to heavy prison or forced labor sentences.

In any case, Italian and Allied HQs have some serious responsibilities in the event, as they gave orders to the Italian divisions in Greece to resist the Germans while refusing to provide any sort of supply, reinforcement, air cover, or evacuation to most of them. Basically, they left them to die - even ignoring the later executions, more than 1000 Italian soldiers died in battle at Cephalonia alone, for no strategic advantage.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Acqui_Division




About the Italian defense for Rome someone mentioned, I believe it's not suited at all for a FH2 scenario, for a bunch of reasons.



A map that could be made is Monte Lungo (Dec 1943) - the first (and one of the very few) battle fought by the Italian co-belligerent (i.e., allied) army.
It's not very widely known because the allied attack was not successful, and especially because the Italian soldiers were so appalled by their perceived treatment by the Allied command that shortly after the battle morale in the whole italian co-belligerent army completely broke, and never really recovered until the end of war (unlike in the post-armistice Italian RSI (i.e., axis) units, which usually had decent to good morale).



In any case: the rather limited number of italian weapons/models/vehicles/guns makes very difficult to actually make such a map in FH2 so far
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Offline Torenico

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Re: Italians vs. Germany Map Idea
« Reply #14 on: 02-04-2009, 19:04:07 »
Tru dat Ratto.

Like i said Before.. Italy its still a Baby in FH2.  Making them in Battle of the Camps is really difficult. They dont have AT weapons, Snipers. Artillery, Trucks, Cars, Halftracks, Airplanes (They do but its a static one..) and no AA Guns.

Plus my map, for the Italian Side, is 80% Placeholder (Mayne it reachs 95%), its kinda difficult but i have done alot now.. and look back its stupid.


But.. this map (Not Rome) will be by far.. more easier for the  Italians. Since they only needs 3 Placholders.. Lefh18, Kubel and Opel Blitz..

Will be kinda hard for germans.. since they dont have the Good Old Stumboot or something. Maybe they can raid the island whit the Sub ?