JumJum you were right !

[Michael Z Freeman]

Hello,

I posted a topic back on the old forum asking for help with someone being subjected to electroshock. You can search the FF Off topic forum if you want to see it.

JumJum responded with a "there's something fishy going on here" or something to that effect. I must admit, to my shame, that I thought he had a bad attitude and lacked the morals to help this poor fellow. How wrong I was ! JumJum you actually pointed out something quite interesting as I have found.

See this FAQ about Ray Sandford ... http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/sandford-faq

Jump / search to the section "SINCE RAY IS AN OUTPATIENT IN A GROUP HOME, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST ESCAPE?".

Now, I appreciate where Mr Sandford is coming from. Who wants to be seperated from their family and friends ? But the logic does not hold. Why stay and risk being killed or permanently brain damaged by electroshock ? I appreciate Mr Sandford is under duress. Has possibly had mind changing Pharma drugs, not to mention the electroshock it's self. But I've seen this kind of thing before. I've seen people state they are being subjected to human rights abuses and torture but then they take little appropriate action to stop it.

Is this the "beaten wife" effect ? The victim assumes that if they just change their behaviour then the beating will stop, rather than admitting that a real abuser is victimising them.

So, thanks JumJum ... there is a little more to this case than meets the eye

DJ Barney

[jumjum]

DJ B, I don't think I've ever had anyone make this kind of apology. It's extremely gracious of you, and denotes a sense of intellectual honesty and honor that just isn't seen that much these days. You are to be commended. But there was absolutely no need for any apology, though. I wasn't in the least offended - disagreements are just a  part of life.

As far as it sounding fishy, it's just that I've had long experience in these kinds of things, and when I hear a tremendously outrageous story of inconceivable violations of human dignity in the Western world, I have to wonder, "How did it get to that point before someone stopped it?" Unfortunately there's a lot of exaggeration in these things. 

But here's the big secret. About two weeks I happened to think about this thread: "I certainly sounded like a know-it-all, cruel curmudgeon in that electroshock thread of DJ Barney's. I wonder if I leaped to an incorrect conclusion." Funny how things work.

But all was ever well between us. Thanks and cheers.

[Moose]

Takes balls to go that far back to admit you were wrong. Jummy still hasnt said sorry for me being right that obama would win.

[jumjum]

Haha! I didn't realize I was supposed to. But as I recall, I think there was a time when I thought there was no way in hell the electorate would be insane enough to turn the country over to a guy with embarrassingly little experience in governance, no experience in foreign policy, and who would nationalize banks and automakers while running the printing presses at the treasury night and day. 

Damn. Moose. I'm sorry. You picked it: the electorate was insane enough to do that. Now,let me settle down into checking the news accounts about what chintzy piece of kitsch the O-Man is giving to the British PM and the Queen today. It was incompatible dvds the other day, and a second Ipod to her majesty. Maybe he'll give French PM Sarkozy a gift certificate for some McDonald's Happy Meals.

[stylie]

Absolutely embarassing and incredibly narcissistic of Obama. You know what it was loaded with right?? All of his speeches. A stinking ipod, thats embarassing. Dont assume that because you get to meet the queen she is automatically fond of you. Like she is gonna sit there for hours while you whisper sweet nothings in here ear buds. In fact, assume that you have a little work to do to impress that 100 year old lady. She has seen it all. You are number 11 in a long line of American Presidents for her. Give her something special and with meaning. Something historical from the American people.

-An ipod, unreal.

[Schneider]

What? Here in the tv news they said it is full with the queens favourite songs...

[VonMudra]

Nope, it was his speeches, and videos of her visit to the US.

[Ts4EVER]

Nope, it was his speeches, and videos of her visit to the US.

er... fail?

[[130.Pz]S.Tiemann]

Wow, that sounds a little bit egotistical. Thats like giving someone a picture of you for their birthday when you hardly know them. "Here take this picture of me, it'll make it easier for you to worship me."

[bosco]

The queen gave him a picture of herself, though. 

[Danger X]

The queen gave Obama a silver-framed signed photograph of herself and the Duke of Edinburgh. She seems to give that to most of her guests.

Give a bad gift, expect a bad one back.

Anyway, I really don't understand what all the fuss was about. They exchanged gifts! That's all that happened. Sure, they should have chosen something else. Rumour has it the Queen already has an iPod. Big deal. As long as they are both happy.

Cheers

edit: was just a second later.

[Eat Uranium]

I don't think she minds too much.  Over the years she has been given thousands of gifts, from a childs drawing to a dancing horse.  The only thing from this visit that I think will resurface again will be the footage on a comedy show with someone dubbing over the Duke of Edinburgh to make out he said racist comments under his breath.  And even thats been done before (its a running national joke).

[Michael Z Freeman]

DJ B, I don't think I've ever had anyone make this kind of apology. It's extremely gracious of you, and denotes a sense of intellectual honesty and honor that just isn't seen that much these days. You are to be commended. But there was absolutely no need for any apology, though. I wasn't in the least offended - disagreements are just a  part of life.

Aha. I do these things that I assume everyone else does and then wonder why everyone is congratulating me .. lol. Thanks JumJum. I was not offended by the disagreement, it's just a sensitive subject.

As far as it sounding fishy, it's just that I've had long experience in these kinds of things, and when I hear a tremendously outrageous story of inconceivable violations of human dignity in the Western world, I have to wonder, "How did it get to that point before someone stopped it?" Unfortunately there's a lot of exaggeration in these things. 

Tell me about it ! Yes, how did the situation with the Pharma and Psych industries get to this point ? There is Mindfreedom now who are protesting for proper rights. As far as I know the situation is the converse of what you are getting at. It's not that people don't protest it, or won't stand for it. The problem IMO is that the "patients" put up with almost anything from extreme torture to almost death with barely a squeak.

But here's the big secret. About two weeks I happened to think about this thread: "I certainly sounded like a know-it-all, cruel curmudgeon in that electroshock thread of DJ Barney's. I wonder if I leaped to an incorrect conclusion." Funny how things work.

It is funny. As I said. I'm not sure I would have looked as carefully at this case without your comments.

But all was ever well between us. Thanks and cheers.

Cheers Sir