Should the devs incorporate small arms deviation into FH2. A poll

[djinn]

I did say something about mg margins didn't I?

Those cause deviation but act as visible feedback of it. Now they move when you swivel and again when you actually walk (For LMGs). So imagine having them pulsate natually to represent breathing, then switch that when in ironsights and walking, to even rapid pulsing to match the walk-speed

Very doable, imo.

But I imagine a coder saying I don't know what I am talking about. I am saying its easy to do, but from what those margins already do for mg deviation in ironsights, I think logically its a possibility.

[Kev4000]

Deviation what?

Djinn, you've continued on the assumption that rifles will hit on 90% of all shots out to 500m ingame.
This is simply not true!
At 200m, I'd estimate that it takes on average 4 rifle shots to hit someone, if they're moving or prone.
At 300m, it can take upwards of 6 - 15 shots to hit someone who is moving or prone. However yes, once you've adjusted to the lead and drop at that given range, you may very well do it in half the # of shots.
No sway? Sway at 300m when standing is 1.5m left/right and 0.7m up/down. You must time your shots in accordance to your breathing (badly simulated, but its there), or estimate how far off it'll shoot, in order to hit while standing.
Even then, adding more deviation will cause those whom are in fixed positions and have deviation settled already (the defenders) to gain a higher advantage.

As I pointed out, backup your claims! Unless you can prove it, it is not deviation which causes the resulting gameplay as described in this thread, or "short firefights". It is 1s1k. And it works as intended.

[djinn]

Well, you are the coder, Kev. I am only using what I see ingame and applying it slightly differently.

I'm just saying that what is already the case for mgs can be used for all guns.

It takes a split second to fire accurately if you wait for the margins, but the point is, there IS a wait. Although the gunman in defensive poisition may have perfect aim, he is also subject to breathing, so it isn't guaranteed he has an advantage, he may be on the widest margin (9:15),so he also needs to settle it before he fires.

The margins pulse by themselves to imitate breathing. Nothing arcade, nothing more than the cosmetic gun sway really.
At close range, this is insignificant. At range, however, it will appear as deviation.
When you dash, dive, etc. The margins pulse faster and wider for a bit before settling to regular breath. Same goes for after a shot, it needs to resettle into its breath routine.
It is not about waiting for them to squeeze back to perfect aim and holding it there, its about waiting for the pont in the cycle where it is at 12 o'clock. That lasts no longer than any other point, so its not automatic that the defender will be there first.
How long it takes to settle is a matter of tweaking.
If you get it right, then you have perfectly mimiced proper gun handling for Fh2's scale. In this case, the realistic is really what makes gun firing perfect. And those margins, imo, are the mechanic that allows for that adjustment, NOT the cross hair.

Like i said, at close range, you wont even notice a difference. Its at range, you might.

For snipers, to account for holding their breath, the margins stay longer at perfect aim before pulsating to 9:15, so you don't have to add any other mechanic to hold your breath, it is assumed the sniper is doing it already. Just as it assumed a rifleman will work the bolts after a shot ingame.

[Paavopesusieni]

PR weapons only have deviation when you do stupid things, like jumping, running turning 360º in .2 seconds. when you move slow, track enemys running sideways, deviation is almost nonexistance, and you can actualy hit the thing you are aiming at.

Those stupid things sadly include things such as normal movement. I can shoot 100% accurate after long run, PR deviation has nothing to do with realism, it's for gameplay, to keep it more slow paced so that the teamwork aspect would work better and be more rewarding.

[SiCaRiO]

run for 5 minutes with 10 kg of equipament and 3 kg or rifle in your arms, then stop and fire at something in less than a second, can you? ingame you can, in PR takes you 3 seconds at least to have cone of fire the size of a man at 200 m. to aim you just have to move your mouse in the X and Y axis, while IRL is much more than that, and takes a lot of factors that deviation represents.

and again, deviations does not mean luck, its pretty easy to hit something at 500 in PR.

[djinn]

I strongly dont recommend us comparing PR and Fh2, as the OP stated. You are trying to achieve something to do with real life, yes? Well, PR did theirs. Deviation is deviation. No need to copy the copy.

Or say, do it like PR.

Let's focus on what happens in RL and what type of deviation we want before this degenerates into another PR vs FH2. It takes only a few fallacies and the train will be off the rails and airborne.

[SiCaRiO]

PR didnt invented deviation, I just use it as an example on the refractor engine. FH 1 had deviation, and settle time after a jump or after running was quite high. hitting targets after running/moving jumping was a lot harder there than in FH2.

[Paavopesusieni]

run for 5 minutes with 10 kg of equipament and 3 kg or rifle in your arms, then stop and fire at something in less than a second, can you? ingame you can, in PR takes you 3 seconds at least to have cone of fire the size of a man at 200 m. to aim you just have to move your mouse in the X and Y axis, while IRL is much more than that, and takes a lot of factors that deviation represents.

and again, deviations does not mean luck, its pretty easy to hit something at 500 in PR.

I can do that if you can't then you need to start jogging. Also in PR it's enough if you run for 5 seconds. After you need to aim you target like 5 seconds.

The deviation is for gameplay, it has nothing do with realism.

[djinn]

PR didnt invented deviation, I just use it as an example on the refractor engine. FH 1 had deviation, and settle time after a jump or after running was quite high. hitting targets after running/moving jumping was a lot harder there than in FH2.

Yes, but bringing it up always causes the discussion to degenerate - So let's talk deviation purely without PR is all I'm saying.

[Toinman]

I'm not sure what I need to pick.

Take any Heavy Machine Gun pickup kit and put it on a strategic spot. I would expect to surpress ennemies, or creating a strong defence line. It is not. As soon as they notice you, they hide, prepare, pop-up and one-shot-kill you at 300m. You often see the ennemie hiding, waiting for him to pop-up. Now, it should be almost impossible for him to hit me first, since I'm in a defending position and already aiming. He has to stand-up, find his target, aim and shoot. But is isn't, it's fifty-fifty. For me this is the only mayor 'frustration' in FH2 firefight.

But I do realize that changing this would have huge implications on map-balance, since defenders would have greater advantages.

So I like the idea, but if this would ruin FH2... no way!

[Steel_Lion_FIN]

^^What he said.

Also this is even worse with the Bren, as you can't hit shit. If deviation could be increased with the suppression effect then blam-o! That would greatly add up to the immersion.

[Jobabb Jobabbsen]

I voted no change. Ive never played PR, so i dont exactly know how deviation works. I guess in a few specific situations deviation could be nice in FH perhaps, but since this poll doesnt explain the details well enough, i vote no, cause all in all i like how FH2 works very well.