FH2 Teamwork theory

[Archimonday]

Your not understanding my point.

Say a squad of five guys goes against a Mg42, which btw can use suppression, (and this was proved by my experience with the bren gun) the Light Machine gun is able to put down enough rounds of ammunition to cover that entire squad on equal terms. Yes mathematically if there are five guys shooting at one target the chances of it being hit are high, but thats not what we are talking about, this has nothing to do with the probability of killing the target. This however has to deal with the fact, that those five guys are shooting at, lets say an entrenched Mg42 hiding behind cover or hidden behind a small embankment, the MG42 is not only putting down enough rounds of ammunition to match their firepower, BUT he also has the advantage that his fire, is able to make those rifleman blind because of the suppression effect.

If however that rifle squad also had suppression, and in turn could effect the MG42's vision, the MG42 suddenly is less effective, and the two sides fire at each others position until one moves, either side is annihilated, or something else comes along and changes the situation.

Im not asking for some magical suppression over hall like Djinn, I just want my squad to have the ability, when we are working together to fire our rifles and know that when our bullets impact down range that there is an effect which is giving that same visual hindrance which I'm receiving.

And I've told you people over and over and over again, that when one man would go up against a larger squad, not only are his chances of being hit greatly increased (like you stated) but with suppression on everything he would effectively be rendered combat ineffective due to the overall visual hindrance he is receiving, which he cannot possibly hope to return due to his lack in numbers, unless of course he has a weapon system which can match it.

Warfare is won by the side that puts down the greatest volume of rounds down range, Suppression helps reenact this, it needs to be put on EVERYTHING.

The two of you can continue to believe that it wont improve teamwork at all, but I can almost assuredly say it will. I won't bother making examples since any I make will instantly be dismissed.

[Natty]

Blind?... Where did I miss when this turned to a blindness effect?

- Still no actual example of why they would need to work in larger groups... Your example of an MG42 guy (take Hurtgen forest as example) tells me that you want all the 6 players to be blind... Him, being fired upon by small arms fromt he squad of 5, and they being fired upon by him. Why on earth would this be a more enjoyable experience?

"Warfare is won by the side that puts down the greatest volume of rounds down range" is your mantra, might be quoted from some military site, I don't know. But game play, isn't won this way. The maps aren't "ranges" and players - who sit comfortably in their chairs at their PCs - are very clever, and adapts very well to game mechanics. They don't care if they die and they will ignore this effect as long as it has no real mechanical or punishing characteristics.
Just hop on to a FH2 server now... Expose yourself to suppressing fire.. do you care? No, you don't.. you think "ah ok, someone is shooting at me, I will just go around the house here and frag him"... you don't even see the effect! As it comes and goes constantly, it is almost the same as if it was never there.

And I would also like you to explain how when adding this to every "gun, pistol, rifle, sub machine gun", you would counter the "boy who cried wolf-effect" by which I mean: when the effect is constantly playing, all the time, everywhere. How will you know where the gunman is, and when you are in real danger, as opposed to no danger, if the effect is constantly there - aka crying "wolf"

[Archimonday]

Blind?... Where did I miss when this turned to a blindness effect?

- Still no actual example of why they would need to work in larger groups... Your example of an MG42 guy (take Hurtgen forest as example) tells me that you want all the 6 players to be blind... Him, being fired upon by small arms fromt he squad of 5, and they being fired upon by him. Why on earth would this be a more enjoyable experience?

"Warfare is won by the side that puts down the greatest volume of rounds down range" is your mantra, might be quoted from some military site, I don't know. But game play, isn't won this way. The maps aren't "ranges" and players - who sit comfortably in their chairs at their PCs - are very clever, and adapts very well to game mechanics. They don't care if they die and they will ignore this effect as long as it has no real mechanical or punishing characteristics.
Just hop on to a FH2 server now... Expose yourself to suppressing fire.. do you care? No, you don't.. you think "ah ok, someone is shooting at me, I will just go around the house here and frag him"... you don't even see the effect! As it comes and goes constantly, it is almost the same as if it was never there.

And I would also like you to explain how when adding this to every "gun, pistol, rifle, sub machine gun", you would counter the "boy who cried wold effect" by which I mean: when the effect is constantly playing, all the time, everywhere. How will you know where the gunman is, and when you are in real danger, as opposed to no danger, if the effect is constantly there - aka crying "wolf"

Hahaha, see this is why nobody can have a debate with you, because you take things WAY too literally. I'm not asking for the Suppression effect to make you "blind", hahaha.

Its not a Mantra, its not taken from some book, its a fact. However, I wouldn't expect you to deal in fact, I now know your stance on Forgotten Hope 2 and how it should be played, that is: spawn die, spawn die, spawn die.

The point is your reinforcing my argument when you talk about flanking a player to frag him. His fire was effective enough to make you change your tactics, that's what Suppression is about to begin with. It has nothing to do with making people "blind" or making some drastic physical change to the weapons accuracy or the avatars abilities, it simply has to do with the ability to make players more aware they are being engaged. It wouldn't be everywhere, every second, or every game, because that's simply not what happens in Forgotten Hope 2, if you played often you might know that.

On the contrary adding the current suppression effect to everything would give players just another tool to use to their advantage, currently one only reserved for light and heavy machine gunners which gives them an advantage.

By educating players about the uses of that tool, players would gladly work together to use it effectively to win the battle. Not everyone playing the game is a heartless bastard just looking to get a high Kill to Death Ratio, there are those of us who like to sacrifice our score for the victory, that includes doing support tasks. Suppressing targets is just another support task, a support task which is based heavily in reality.

[LHeureux]

@Eat Uranium: Yes, the feedback when getting suppressed is obvious, and works.

Feedback when supressing is non existant (LuckyOne is wrong, as you always wont see people "taing cover" it is not feedback that works every time)
Feedback when your teammate is suppressing (you have rifle) is non existant as well

If those two are fixed, it would be a different discussion.

The feedback is there. Because when you shoot the enemy you know that he's being supressed, because when they shot you, you were supressed, it's the same for them, their game isn't different. And it's the same for your friend too, because he plays the same game, while he shoots the enemies the average joe knows that they are supressed because it already happened to him.

[LuckyOne]

Why can't we get something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpCOROFmGek&feature=player_embedded#at=383

I know that "real" weapon sway isn't possible in BF2 but I believe that even fake weapon sway would really help in distracting the aiming of the person being suppressed...

[djinn]

Not possible in this engine.

[LuckyOne]

Not possible in this engine.

Not even fake, visual only? Damn...

I guess then our best bet is some subtle camera shake as the bullets land near you: more bullets = more shake.

[Beaufort]

@ Archimonday

You seem to be complaining about the suppression effect giving an advantage to the mg gunner because the other guns don't have it, but this advantage was wanted by the devs to make mgs more effective iirc, not so much for suppression... 

[Natty]

@Archi, if you attempt to have a serious discussion, first of all you need to learn to talk literary. If you say blind, I hear blind.. I dont know what you mean. If you ever did any actual implementation of things or have needed to communicate this to others, you would know the importance of absolute clarity in how you word things.. If you just mod for yourself, then.... well, no one else need to know.
This is why Im asking you to basically give me a walkthrough in a typical scenario when more suppression will make players stick together more. you avoid this constantly.
And saying you know my stance and that it's spawn-die etc.. reallly.. this makes you look very childish in this discussion... I mean come on  Im embarrassed...

In FH2 there is constant gunfire.. just hop on any full server... yes, the effect would be enabled pretty much all the time. Unless your idea is that the radius is so tiny, only bullets that is an inch from you trigger the effect... that wasnt really the picture you painted earlier, with that one MG guy who suppressed 5 guys... that would mean a radius per bullet of some meter or more.

whiiiiiiich would result in over half our maps being totally covered in this effect, as most maps are high density maps where we kill eachother on quite a small area.

and you contradict yourself again, saying now suppression is only to "alert" you you are being "engaged" (another arbitrary military term) Someone shoots at you in FH2, you know it. Without the suppression.

OK - 2.4 has the bullet crack too low, I give you THIS.. it will be back to 2.3 volume in the next patch.
I also have a to-do note on making bullet impacts louder and heard a bit longer. This way the bullet crack + the bullet hitting the wall, will tell you someone is "engaging" you.. No need for us to throw Boomer-puke in your face also.

[Archimonday]

@Archi, if you attempt to have a serious discussion, first of all you need to learn to talk literary. If you say blind, I hear blind.. I dont know what you mean. If you ever did any actual implementation of things or have needed to communicate this to others, you would know the importance of absolute clarity in how you word things.. If you just mod for yourself, then.... well, no one else need to know.
This is why Im asking you to basically give me a walkthrough in a typical scenario when more suppression will make players stick together more. you avoid this constantly.
And saying you know my stance and that it's spawn-die etc.. reallly.. this makes you look very childish in this discussion... I mean come on  Im embarrassed...

In FH2 there is constant gunfire.. just hop on any full server... yes, the effect would be enabled pretty much all the time. Unless your idea is that the radius is so tiny, only bullets that is an inch from you trigger the effect... that wasnt really the picture you painted earlier, with that one MG guy who suppressed 5 guys... that would mean a radius per bullet of some meter or more.

whiiiiiiich would result in over half our maps being totally covered in this effect, as most maps are high density maps where we kill eachother on quite a small area.

and you contradict yourself again, saying now suppression is only to "alert" you you are being "engaged" (another arbitrary military term) Someone shoots at you in FH2, you know it. Without the suppression.

OK - 2.4 has the bullet crack too low, I give you THIS.. it will be back to 2.3 volume in the next patch.
I also have a to-do note on making bullet impacts louder and heard a bit longer. This way the bullet crack + the bullet hitting the wall, will tell you someone is "engaging" you.. No need for us to throw Boomer-puke in your face also.

What?! Your making all sorts of assumptions based off of nothing! I don't just "mod for myself" in-fact I have been a part of Dev teams, the big difference in them, was that people were not so stubbornly resistant to try and change things, to the point where they would spend hours debating them rather than testing them and deciding what works and what doesn't. If an idea got brought up in BGF, we tested it first, debated afterwards.

There is no constant gunfire in Forgotten Hope, Hell I played three rounds of the mod today, and there was not a single time where I continuously spawned and found myself under continual gunfire. Where did you get the idea that the suppression effect is to be a meter wide or more? The suppression effect as IS, is fine, don't confuse my argument with Djinn's, I just want to see it put on all weapons. The idea of the MG42 suppressing five guys is that the gunner was traversing their position covering them with bullets to suppress multiple targets at once.

You also only know your being shot at in FH2, after the enemy has hit you, or if you hear the shot, there is no other feedback telling you your being shot at. The bullet impacts are too small, the crack is now bugged so even that is gone, despite the fact its being fixed.

I have given you scenarios where the suppression effect helps teamwork, specifically in the case of a lone man finding himself faced against a squad. Currently in Forgotten Hope 2, as I stated, a man with a chest high cover and a rifle can take on a squad by himself simply by spamming his control key and pixel shooting with his iron sights rapidly. This is unrealistic, and Suppression helps change this, because now that man has a visual hindrance placed upon him, which makes the rapid acquiring of targets THAT much more difficult, and as a result that one man is now rendered useless against the combine power of a squad, and is forced to find companions to help him fight. It is a team play oriented change, based around the placement of a visual hindrance which creates a visual representation of "fear".

To reiterate: Do not confuse my argument, with Djinns.

[djinn]

Natty is a rock. You wont win by trying to barrel him down, Archi.

I think for all concerned, let's move this to another topic for teamwork. We're boring the rest of the community. The data is all there for the decision makers

[Natty]

Let's take this lone dude as example.. he is behind a wall, and is getting suppressed (by say, 2 guys with SMGs), how is this making him teamwork more? What is he supposed to do, run to his squad mates and get de-suppressed?

Im having serious problems converting these assumptions to real-game events. I have seen Band of brothers, and many other war movies where they shout "supressing fire!!" and 3-4 guys pop up and shoot, while some others advance..

Is this the goal with this change?

If so, I think first of all we would need a game where players do cover each other in the first place, or heck, even care what others are doing.... In FH2 pubby rounds, it's not like 3 guys would synchronological fire at a controlpoint, while I sprint over the field in glory knowing my enemies are "supressed"... it's simply not what happens.

It could happen, yes.. maybe once in a round... when your teammate happened to be shooting in that direction anyway, and you happened to be running there as well. Forget about synchronizing this so a bunch of guys are laying out cover fire while the rest advance. Maybe in tournament game play..... or in a hardcore VoIP squad, or in PR.. I just dont see this happening in FH2.
Relying (in this case "trusting fully") on player cooperation for a feature to work, is doomed to fail.

On another note: I would not fully object adding suppression to all weapons. In a completely different context. I dont think it would "increase teamplay" which we now instead can call "make players synchronize gunfire so his teammates can advance", but there are other effects that could be achieved (which I will not talk about here)

And about me being "stubborn"... I was debating heavily in this forum about the removal of crossairs, but after looking carefully (as in, for real, not chatting and arguing) at what we wanted to do with infantry play, and what the goals were, and discussing it seriously in the devteam, I was the one that removed it from the mod So you see... Im using these threads as a spring-board on which to grow new arguments, and so far this thread made me realize that weapon aim-time (deviation time) if made longer  + suppression on all weapons, would result in a side-goal we wanted earlier.
Nothing to do with teamplay at all.
But then it's the business of pursuading Kev4000 that this would be achieved as well 

[SiCaRiO]

Let's take this lone dude as example.. he is behind a wall, and is getting suppressed (by say, 2 guys with SMGs), how is this making him teamwork more? What is he supposed to do, run to his squad mates and get de-suppressed?

he is going  find counter attacking those 2 smgers by himself its impossible, dying in the try and learning next time to stick with more players to have a better chanse to survive. all the games/mods with supression have made that happened to a diferent degree, in PR by pind down the enemy, in DH by making them less able to fire accuaratly,ect.

teamwork is relaying in your teammates to bost your chanses of success. teamwork is not running in the same direction because the map is designed to make people run in the same direction.

[Archimonday]

Let's take this lone dude as example.. he is behind a wall, and is getting suppressed (by say, 2 guys with SMGs), how is this making him teamwork more? What is he supposed to do, run to his squad mates and get de-suppressed?

Im having serious problems converting these assumptions to real-game events. I have seen Band of brothers, and many other war movies where they shout "supressing fire!!" and 3-4 guys pop up and shoot, while some others advance..

Is this the goal with this change?

If so, I think first of all we would need a game where players do cover each other in the first place, or heck, even care what others are doing.... In FH2 pubby rounds, it's not like 3 guys would synchronological fire at a controlpoint, while I sprint over the field in glory knowing my enemies are "supressed"... it's simply not what happens.

It could happen, yes.. maybe once in a round... when your teammate happened to be shooting in that direction anyway, and you happened to be running there as well. Forget about synchronizing this so a bunch of guys are laying out cover fire while the rest advance. Maybe in tournament game play..... or in a hardcore VoIP squad, or in PR.. I just dont see this happening in FH2.
Relying (in this case "trusting fully") on player cooperation for a feature to work, is doomed to fail.

On another note: I would not fully object adding suppression to all weapons. In a completely different context. I dont think it would "increase teamplay" which we now instead can call "make players synchronize gunfire so his teammates can advance", but there are other effects that could be achieved (which I will not talk about here)

And about me being "stubborn"... I was debating heavily in this forum about the removal of crossairs, but after looking carefully (as in, for real, not chatting and arguing) at what we wanted to do with infantry play, and what the goals were, and discussing it seriously in the devteam, I was the one that removed it from the mod So you see... Im using these threads as a spring-board on which to grow new arguments, and so far this thread made me realize that weapon aim-time (deviation time) if made longer  + suppression on all weapons, would result in a side-goal we wanted earlier.
Nothing to do with teamplay at all.
But then it's the business of pursuading Kev4000 that this would be achieved as well 

Your still only focusing one part of the suggestion. This has nothing to do with reenacting movies like Band Of Brothers, Band of Brothers was reenacting real life. Covering Fire is a tactic, a tactic which cannot be utilized in games effectively because there is no actual fear being placed upon the players, if people were actually afraid to die like they were in real life, nobody would play a game. That fact I am not arguing. However, mods like PR, and Games like Red Orchestra have implemented this visual hindrance to help simulate the effect of bullets acting on, not the player, but the avatar, the characters self-image in-game. The Avatar, not the player is the one being "scared" by this effect, that is what its goal is to represent. I'm not asking for it to be longer, or shorter, or different for all guns, or have some magical camera shake, I just want it on all weapons so that it is universal.

THEN, and here's the original part of my suggestion that everyone ignored, and it went hand and hand with the posters, once Suppression is implemented on all weapons, you educate players about the effective uses of this new feature, and how to work together to implement it. The biggest hindrance to team work in any game is ignorance, ignorance not only to the actuality of the war that is being portrayed, but to the tactics that were used to win it.

As I stated so very long ago in this thread:

As long as people are educated about the usefulness of suppression, and the various tactics they can employ to use it properly, they will work in larger groups to use it more effectively.

The thread then digressed into a long discussion about Suppression, when originally my suggestion was that Suppression be added to every gun, and then be coupled with education for the players, by means of news updates, youtube, facebook, loading screens, posters, whatever it was. THAT, was why things like Suppression would have improved teamwork.

[LuckyOne]

In FH2 pubby rounds, it's not like 3 guys would synchronological fire at a controlpoint, while I sprint over the field in glory knowing my enemies are "supressed"... it's simply not what happens.

I think they would, IF they knew it COULD work...Right now they know it's bloody useless, so what's the point...

It could happen, yes.. maybe once in a round... when your teammate happened to be shooting in that direction anyway, and you happened to be running there as well. Forget about synchronizing this so a bunch of guys are laying out cover fire while the rest advance. Maybe in tournament game play..... or in a hardcore VoIP squad, or in PR.. I just dont see this happening in FH2.
Relying (in this case "trusting fully") on player cooperation for a feature to work, is doomed to fail.

You don't see it happening because it's not in yet...

On another note: I would not fully object adding suppression to all weapons. In a completely different context. I dont think it would "increase teamplay" which we now instead can call "make players synchronize gunfire so his teammates can advance", but there are other effects that could be achieved (which I will not talk about here)

Good to know.