Gaddafi and Libya

[Alakazou]

all goverments are evil
All religion are evil

I dont wanna be part of neither

People are evil... you should'nt be a part of us. So go in the forest live like animal without technology:)

[VonMudra]

Oh wait, animals are evil...hmm.

And by your logic Theta, my religious beliefs are evil....  Does that mean I'm evil?

[[130.Pz]S.Lainer]

Oh wait, animals are evil...hmm.

And by your logic Theta, my religious beliefs are evil....  Does that mean I'm evil?

As long as you don't dress up and prance about like an animal I think you are safe....

[hankypanky]

Here is the thing, you think it is great because in the West religious governments are feared. So a secular government is great? right? No. The truth is it is not up to you to decide what government the Syrian people deserve, because secular or not the people deserve a shot at democracy. Hey do well to remember that Saddam ran a secular government, but was he really any better?  Btw please quote sources idk as you claim a lot of things.

If YOUR form of Democracy hurts my Democracy or anybody elses Democracy then I do not consider it a Democracy. My country tried to mediate between Gadaffi and the rebels and you know what the rebels ended up doing? Attacking our consulate in Benghazi, I see they're very fkn Democratic for people that are only trying to help them. I would take Secularism over Radical-Islam any day of the week and Libya is no exception, because like I said its countries like ours that are close to these shitholes that have to pay for higher security and aid because of these countries. I certainly hope you're right and the Libyan people take a good shot at Democracy, but if they do not I'll bump this thread with an "I told you so".

Btw here's my source, all 582 pages of it. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194456-Libya-Unrest-Thread

Dude did you just site ANOTHER FORUM as a source? You  need to be more specific about your responses if you want anyone to respond to them. What country are you from? Who got attacked? Link me to an article about it.  Btw don't other democratic countries often attack/hurt other democratic countries? You know like in war? 

[hankypanky]

BTW everyone talks about Islamic fighters from Al queda. But can anyone actually provide any solid proof of their existence? Like a picture? Perhaps an interview? All I see is speculation, and the usual WTF TERRORISTS! Ya sure their are independent tribes fighting with the rebels. But the Middle East is FULL of tribes! Those tribes are not necessarily terrorists. BTW I'm still waiting for the Muslim Brotherhood to take over Egypt, and wage holy war with their Abrams tanks like many people claimed :/     

EDIT: I looked thru the internet and I finally found the Islamic extremists. It turns out they were in my pants the whole time. Silly me.

[Tolga<3]

Of course its speculation, what you say is a speculation too not a damn fact unless you went over there and had a nice conversation with the rebel leaders yourself?? Listen, fact is there are jihadists operating in the Libyan rebellion, there are normal citizens amongst them making up the majority but those people just want regular lives, can you say the same about the jihadists in Libya? Don't come at me protecting Islam, I too am a Muslim (I'm Turkish) but I don't have faith in fellow Muslims like yourself for obvious fkn reasons. A former jihadist himself says there are around a 1000 jihadists operating in Libya right now, I could link that to you too if you want.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

EDIT: I looked thru the internet and I finally found the Islamic extremists. It turns out they were in my pants the whole time. Silly me.

Now you're saying Islamic extremism doesn't exist?

[THeTA0123]

its like when somebody here says something awesome about german stuff, i prove it is issent true, and they do weird things like=Pics or it dint happen. Source? But real source?

and even then if you provide the actual source, they try to smug there way out of it

[Steiner8834]

So true, and a good statement by Hankypanky.

If they democratically elect a 'radical' muslim party, well that's a majority vote and as long as all goes along with international observers, who are we to complain?

Just because a majority of the people vote for a specific party doesn't means that is right and lawful. You see I hold it with the principle, that every individual has some god given unalienable rights. Now if a majority lets say 51 % vote for the killing  of the other 49 % percent do you really think that is ok? No, democracy is in the end "mob rule".
Thats why in my opinion the majority has to be restricted in their rights. Let's take the MB for example. If the MB gains power in the parliament members of other religious minorities like christians, buddiths and some sects will loose their unalienable rights. They will fall under the so called "Dhimmitude". In a democracy it is absolutely ok because the majority voted for that. For me as republican it is absolutely shameful because these people will loose their freedom.

If these arab spring countries mean it really serious  than they should ban organisations like the Muslim Brotherhood because these evil monsters will enslave great parts of the population.

I mean some Republicans/Democrats can be seen as radical Christians and do we throw a fit every time the US elects a President from the GOP? (well ok I do, but that's me ^^)

The United States and their constitution were built on Christian priniciples

Some quotes from the Founding Fathers.

John Adams

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Thomas Jefferson

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

Oh yeah the dailymail... they fail to mention that the elections are yet to come, as they were set to be held in autumn right after the revolt was over...

Yeah cause it is from the "evil" dailymail it must be wrong. 

[DLFReporter]

Just because a majority of the people vote for a specific party doesn't means that is right and lawful. You see I hold it with the principle, that every individual has some god given unalienable rights. Now if a majority lets say 51 % vote for the killing  of the other 49 % percent do you really think that is ok? No, democracy is in the end "mob rule".

Why do I always get the all or nothing end of the debate?
Kid, we are talking about a vote, I've seen dozens of 'radical' parties that had to rethink their entire roots once they took to power in a democratically run country.

I will bet with you a hundred dollars that Egypt will not descend into a theocracy like you make it out to be. Even with a victory of the MB, they also have other parties in Egypt you know.

I find it funny how you try to pull down Muslims and make them out as non humans... why on Earth would such a mob vote ever come to be, even if the MB came to power? Anything coming to Egypt from now on is better than the last years of Mubarak's reign.

I know that the founding fathers of the US were mostly Christians, but they could all have been Muslims and we would still have the same 'freedoms', that we enjoy today. The liberal parts of the constitution like the freedom of religion aren't Christian traits.   

Yeah cause it is from the "evil" dailymail it must be wrong. 

I just said that they failed to mention that the elections have a set date, while they were constructing this 'article' you cited.

[Stefan]

thing is about elections, can you vote for those you want in charge, or is it a choice between 2 people who are bought and paid for and will do the same things?

when i hear democracy i think about politicians doing their best to improve the country for everyone, the voting part is kinda... pointless if all politicians would think the same way, it would basicly mean voting colors instead of concepts.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The problem with radical Islamists and elections is that radical Islamists think democracy is sinful because government should be run by the word of God as expressed in Qur'an/Sharia, not by the will of the masses. Because the will of the people is usually sinful.

This means that when Islamists take power in elections, they often never give it up. For example, look at the Gaza Strip. Hamas won elections there in 2006. Then a year later they killed off most of their political opposition and there hasn't been another election since.

[Zoologic]

Hanky, Tolga is Turkish and you should get the clue from his nickname.

The problem with radical Islamists and elections is that radical Islamists think democracy is sinful because government should be run by the word of God as expressed in Qur'an/Sharia, not by the will of the masses. Because the will of the people is usually sinful.

See this:

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/churches-cant-be-built-in-streets-with-islamic-names-bogor-mayor/460241

BTW, that news source came from charismatic Christian businessman. So it should contain opinion of American right centrist (Republicans). But to most Indonesians, it is like Fox News or Daily Mail already. But we are all agreed, the mayor is a retard. Not long after that, twitter was flooded with messages containing mosques in streets with Christian names and churches in streets with Islamic names. Coming from the largest Muslim nation in the world.

I can understand if you view Muslims so negatively because of the materials you read. Some are true, I have to admit that, but if you take it too much, it will be blown out of its realistic proportion. Kinda Japanese game depicting world war 2 tanks as super mechas... unrealistic, yet mind ticklingly awesome if it was for real.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Well by radical Islamists I meant Qutbist/Wahabi strains of Sunni Islam or Qoms sect in Shia (Iranian gov.). Not all Muslims that are involved in politics. I agree that there are places were devout Muslims are a part of the democratic process, like Indonesia, India and the USA.

[Dukat]

If these arab spring countries mean it really serious  than they should ban organisations like the Muslim Brotherhood because these evil monsters will enslave great parts of the population.

Based on this argumentation, you could have banned right winger fascist parties in US a long time ago. But no, you let em spread their ideas and you call it freedom of speech. Especially every time, the banning of swastikas in Germany is being discussed. Let me ask, would you accept radical islamic symbols along with radical islamic agitation in your country?

@ Tolga:
If you would be a Turk living in a kurdish country under the same conditions the Kurds are living in Turkey, you'd be the first to scream for armed rebellion.

[hankypanky]

Of course its speculation, what you say is a speculation too not a damn fact unless you went over there and had a nice conversation with the rebel leaders yourself?? Listen, fact is there are jihadists operating in the Libyan rebellion, there are normal citizens amongst them making up the majority but those people just want regular lives, can you say the same about the jihadists in Libya? Don't come at me protecting Islam, I too am a Muslim (I'm Turkish) but I don't have faith in fellow Muslims like yourself for obvious fkn reasons. A former jihadist himself says there are around a 1000 jihadists operating in Libya right now, I could link that to you too if you want.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

EDIT: I looked thru the internet and I finally found the Islamic extremists. It turns out they were in my pants the whole time. Silly me.

Now you're saying Islamic extremism doesn't exist?

Should have put Libyan extremists. 

Ok lets sort this out:

There is bound to be extremists in Libya because there Muslim extremists in every Muslim country.  Now the question is how influential they are. Now you have mentioned that the majority are normal citizens? Where is the problem? Extremists are everywhere, there is nothing you can do about it. Muslim extremists, Zionists, and Christian nuts. We got extremists even in American congress. Here is the thing, the problem is not the uprising. Everyone should support it. The question is the aftermath. All the west has to do is support the majority "Normal" Muslims, and Libyans will just side step the extremists.

You made your argument extremely personal! lol why do you not like Muslims like me? How well do you know me? I'm a born and raised  American , and a Muslim with Palestinian heritage (Parents).  I lived in Jordan (a liberal country) for a year. I go to a Christian college and live in a hispanic community in Chicago. Do I sound like a fucken extremist to you? Your a Muslim yet you insult Jihad.

Jihad is not terrorism!  Jihad is fighting for god and protecting your rights. The Taliban/ Iraqi insurgents have claimed Jihad against the west, but they are really just manipulating one of the most holy words in Islam. You guys want to know why Libyans yell Allah akbar? Because they believe they are fighting a Jihad against Gidaffi, their dead are martyrs. A fight for freedom is a fight for god, hence Jihad.

Jihad is the religious duty of every Muslim. Fight for your rights, your family, your honor. However extremists have manipulated the word and turned it into something negative.

Funny I always like Turkish Muslims. Salam alaikum.