Gaddafi and Libya

[Schneider]

I can't stress this enough, Germany is run at the moment by the Christian Democratic Party... oh noes, religious nuts in power... help! ^^

Well, they may not be overly religious, maybe not even evil, but nuts they definitely are and extraordinarily stupid. One would think the federal government to be somewhat idiot-proof, but the sheer amount of amateurishness makes me snap for air sometimes, asking myself if this is our supreme government or maybe only the mayors bureau in Hinterschmiding.

[DLFReporter]

You are so sweet Steiner. 
A kicked dog barks.

[Steiner8834]

The Rebels are also very anti-semitic.

Here you can see some of their "cartoons":














http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/funny-anti-gaddafi-cartoons-reveal-rebel-racism-anti-semitism/2/

[Ciupita]

The Rebels are also very anti-semitic.

Here you can see some of their "cartoons":

*many pictures*

Yeah well..  For (most) arabic people Israel and jews are same than communists and leftists are for americans.

"Obama is a communist".. yeah.. with same logic Gaddafi is a jew.

[Tolga<3]

Oh yes, because Western people are thrilled by the sight of us yelling Allahu Ekber. It ain't free, we're taking a break while our future enemy starts settling in.

We can sit here and dismisses the Arab spring and the Libya revolution as a farce, and as "Future enemies", or we can give them the time and maybe see new stable governments. You know there is already a stable national transition council with heavy western support. So Libya already has the framework for a stable government.

The Arab Spring or the Jasmine Spring as we call it is most certainly not a farce but something everybody should keep their eyes on. The rebels in Libya do have some Al-Qaeda connections, there are known Islamists among them and its really not similar to the situation we had in Tunisia or Egypt. Look at Syria now, people cutting eachothers heads off and hanging dead babies around and about. This doesn't feel like the sweep of freedom one bit.

What? You do know in Syria the government is the one doing all the killing right? lol Al-Qaeda. Doesn't the American government still claim that there are uber sleeper cells still in America...hahaha.

That is only a portrayal. Everyone is killing everyone in Syria right now, not just Syrian Army and not just the other side and the refugee's are trying to get away from all of that. See I don't want some rebels taking control of a Government if they are going to break International law before they even get settled into their positions because my country has to actually border these poor excuses for countries no matter what Government controls them. No matter what anybody says, the Syrian Government is a Secular one and I take kindly to anybody that could change that.

[Eat Uranium]

This may be useful:

[hankypanky]

Oh yes, because Western people are thrilled by the sight of us yelling Allahu Ekber. It ain't free, we're taking a break while our future enemy starts settling in.

We can sit here and dismisses the Arab spring and the Libya revolution as a farce, and as "Future enemies", or we can give them the time and maybe see new stable governments. You know there is already a stable national transition council with heavy western support. So Libya already has the framework for a stable government.

The Arab Spring or the Jasmine Spring as we call it is most certainly not a farce but something everybody should keep their eyes on. The rebels in Libya do have some Al-Qaeda connections, there are known Islamists among them and its really not similar to the situation we had in Tunisia or Egypt. Look at Syria now, people cutting eachothers heads off and hanging dead babies around and about. This doesn't feel like the sweep of freedom one bit.

What? You do know in Syria the government is the one doing all the killing right? lol Al-Qaeda. Doesn't the American government still claim that there are uber sleeper cells still in America...hahaha.

That is only a portrayal. Everyone is killing everyone in Syria right now, not just Syrian Army and not just the other side and the refugee's are trying to get away from all of that. See I don't want some rebels taking control of a Government if they are going to break International law before they even get settled into their positions because my country has to actually border these poor excuses for countries no matter what Government controls them. No matter what anybody says, the Syrian Government is a Secular one and I take kindly to anybody that could change that.

Here is the thing, you think it is great because in the West religious governments are feared. So a secular government is great? right? No. The truth is it is not up to you to decide what government the Syrian people deserve, because secular or not the people deserve a shot at democracy. Hey do well to remember that Saddam ran a secular government, but was he really any better?  Btw please quote sources idk as you claim a lot of things. 

This may be useful:

Wtf is that?

[Steiner8834]

A very good article from the Daily Mail and the best it is from today. 

Why this is the moment Libya's Islamic extremists have prayed for

As Tripoli fell to anti-Gaddafi rebel forces, the euphoria that erupted in some parts of the city was matched only by that which broke out among Middle East pundits in the West.

The fall of the Libyan capital represents a clear victory for freedom over tyranny, they tell us, and a new country — defined by an enthusiastic embrace of democracy, pluralism and representative government — will emerge.

However, we have been here twice before in the Middle East in recent months. First, when Tunisia’s strongman, Zine El-Abidene Ben Ali, fled Tunis, and then when Egypt’s dictator Hosni Mubarak vacated the presidential palace in Cairo.

Seven months on, both countries are as authoritarian as ever. The Islamists have hijacked the popular uprisings there. And little evidence of a popular thirst for democracy can be found.
In Tunisia, a paltry 16 per cent of eligible voters had bothered to register before an initial deadline for doing so passed last month.

Egypt’s first free and fair election in March — voting for a new constitution — drew just 41 per cent of the population to the polling booths.

If the Arab Spring has so miserably failed to blossom into an enthusiasm for democracy in these two relatively modern and unified Arab states, what chance is there of it doing so in a desert backwater such as Libya?

Other events in the Middle East also bode ill for Libya’s future. A decade after the American-led invasions, Afghanistan and Iraq — also deeply tribal countries — are, despite regular elections, just as far in social terms from Western notions of liberalism and pluralism.

Instead, their populations are busy tearing each other apart along tribal and sectarian lines, and the liberals are so marginalised they barely manage to get a word in.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban, once Enemy No 1, are looking more and more like an acceptable negotiating partner if the land is to be, if not pacified, then at least becalmed.

In Iraq, as in Libya, the U.S. was only able to fight its enemy by buying the support of local Sunni tribal leaders — never the most open-minded kind of men one is likely to find.

Now, more suddenly than any of us imagined, we are confronted with the same question that has caused us so many problems in those countries: what happens next?

,.......

Only in the weeks and months to come will we discover if the West has repeated the deadly mistake it made in Afghanistan and Iraq: arming fanatical jihadists and tribesmen who will, sooner or later, turn against their paymaster.

For not all the rebels are chaotic. One of their commanders, Abdel-Hakim Al-Hasidi, has been a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) since the Nineties.

This is a violent jihadist outfit that, for decades, had been waging a holy war against the Gaddafi regime with an aim of creating an Islamic state.

It was banned worldwide after the 9/11 attacks, when Al-Hasidi fled to Afghanistan.

Now he admits he recruited dozens of Al Qaeda members to the insurgent cause in Iraq, where the LIFG made up the second largest group of foreign fighters; and, worse, that many of his jihadists have joined the rebellion in Libya.

Al-Hasidi said his fighters in Libya ‘are patriots and good Muslims’, but added that Al Qaeda men ‘are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader’ in Iraq.

Even as the rebels continue to pour into Tripoli, the numerous Islamist militias, who have been fighting independently, are still refusing officially to join their ranks.

Only a fool would bet on their long-term allegiances, or consider them a unifying national force. And only a buffoon would expect them to embrace Western democratic principles any more sincerely than the Islamists will.

.........

Take the powerful Obeidi tribe, which was among the first to join the anti- Gaddafi alliance.

For them, maintaining honour is always paramount, and there could have been no greater provocation than the assassination, by unknown assailants, last month of their leader Abdel Fattah Younes.

Once a powerful interior minister under Gaddafi, Younes had defected to the rebels in February 2011 and became their star army commander.

He was shot dead with two aides, also from the Obeidi tribe, after being summoned to Benghazi by the Western-backed National Transitional Council (NTC).

Immediately, the suspicion was that the NTC had something to do with the assassination, but the Obeidis rejected an offer of an investigation into Younes’s death by the Council, instead deciding to take the law into their own hands.

‘We will leave it to the tribe to bring us justice,’ Younes’s son threatened, hours after his tribal followers went on a gun-firing rampage.

The entire NTC was then sacked by its acting leader, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, as a pacifying move, meaning the only way for the rebels to maintain any semblance of unity since then has been to have only a nominal, national political leadership.

Not that the rebels have ever managed to achieve anything other than superficial unity. Even before Younes’s assassination, rebels from Misrata, Libya’s third largest city, were refusing to join ranks with revolutionaries from Benghazi, because of different tribal affiliations. And they still refuse to take orders from the NTC.

Factions within Misrata have been at each other’s throats because of a historic feud between the Misratans and other locals known as Tawerghans. They still refuse to recognise the transitional council.

Rebels from the Zintan tribe, meanwhile, instead of fighting Gaddafi’s forces head-on, took up arms specifically against the pro-government Mashashiya tribe — taking advantage of the chaos to settle old scores.

This confusing mish-mash of alliances is a taste of the way Libya will be ruled in the future, if and when the rebel groups attain national power.

And from all this it will be clear why the only way Gaddafi was able to rule Libya for decades was by playing a much more skilful game of tribal repression and coercion, all the time trying to undermine tribal alliances through intermarriage, modernisation and urbanisation.

But the tragic irony of the Libyan civil war is that the tribes, and their byzantine web of links and rivalries, have once again became central to the fate of the country — as have the once-repressed radical jihadists.

The fiercely independent Islamists, moreover, will not relent on their demands for an Islamist state. In the transitional council’s draft constitution it is clearly stated that Islamic law will be ‘the principal source of legislation’.

Nato, then, can at best achieve replacing the Gaddafi regime with an Islamist-infiltrated tribal council.

And that means Libya is as far as ever from being a Western-style democracy. Indeed, it is more likely to turn into the West’s worst nightmare.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2029026/Libya-Tripoli-falling-moment-Islamic-extremists-prayed-for.html#ixzz1VsQuTCdu

The majority of the commentators are of the same opinion.

[silian]

lol the daily fail, the fox news of british tabloid journalism, not that the rest are much better.

[DLFReporter]

So true, and a good statement by Hankypanky.

If they democratically elect a 'radical' muslim party, well that's a majority vote and as long as all goes along with international observers, who are we to complain?

I mean some Republicans/Democrats can be seen as radical Christians and do we throw a fit every time the US elects a President from the GOP? (well ok I do, but that's me ^^)

Oh yeah the dailymail... they fail to mention that the elections are yet to come, as they were set to be held in autumn right after the revolt was over...

@Hanky: That formula represents all the ways in which the media has written Mua...amar EL...Gadd..affi...somethings name ^^

[Fuchs]

Ladies and gentlemen. We got his hat.

Wtf is that?

All the ways to spell Qaddafi's name.

[sizum85]

Gadaffi is gone yay!

BTW, who is this Green fanboy, has he lived in Libya and experienced the opression there or seen his family killed in the lockerbie bombing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w0efVH6aZw

Steiner seems to have no problems with cutting off 13 year olds genitals.

Edit:Also they hate West so much in Libya

[Tolga<3]

Here is the thing, you think it is great because in the West religious governments are feared. So a secular government is great? right? No. The truth is it is not up to you to decide what government the Syrian people deserve, because secular or not the people deserve a shot at democracy. Hey do well to remember that Saddam ran a secular government, but was he really any better?  Btw please quote sources idk as you claim a lot of things.

If YOUR form of Democracy hurts my Democracy or anybody elses Democracy then I do not consider it a Democracy. My country tried to mediate between Gadaffi and the rebels and you know what the rebels ended up doing? Attacking our consulate in Benghazi, I see they're very fkn Democratic for people that are only trying to help them. I would take Secularism over Radical-Islam any day of the week and Libya is no exception, because like I said its countries like ours that are close to these shitholes that have to pay for higher security and aid because of these countries. I certainly hope you're right and the Libyan people take a good shot at Democracy, but if they do not I'll bump this thread with an "I told you so".

Btw here's my source, all 582 pages of it. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194456-Libya-Unrest-Thread

[Dukat]

If the Islamic Rebels win this civil war, the country will be transformed into a Islamic Caliphate with the Sharia as the supreme Law of the Land.  Equal rights for women will disapear. Public hangings for homosexuals and stonings will be a common thing in Libya.

Wait. Since when do you people care about civil rights for homosexuals? As far as I remember, the christian religion is the base for legislation in many western countries. Is that so different from Article 1 in the Libyan Draft Constitution saying "...the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence"? Did you also read Article 4, stating that "the state shall seek to establish a political democratic regime [...]? Did you read Article 6, stating that "Libyans shall be equal before the law[...] without discrimination due religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship or political opinions or social status"?

There is more to read:

Libya Draft Constitutional Charter for the Transitional Stage


You should also stop lumping together Islam, fundamentalism and Al Qaeda. The are differences. Islam is not evil by default. That doesn't get you any further than somebody stating that christianity is evil by default. Which sound almost legit, considering what had been done in the name of christianity in the recent centuries. Stop thinking in terms of black and white, leaving you, your religion and your views as good in general, while everything else is evil.

The same goes for the MB [edit: Muslim Brotherhood] because if we dont stop them, they will undermine us and establish an islamic caliphate in Europe.

How can somebody establish an islamic caliphate in Europe, when the majority of europeans is christian? You're singing from the same hymn sheet as Anders Breivik. Europe will not become an islamic caliphate unless a broad majority of europeans want this. Currently we are far, far away from an islamic majority. And once there might be a majority, maybe someday, it is simply an expression of the will of the people living in those days then. I find nothing wrong in letting a majority rule the country. It is deeply democratic then.

Sure because I'm against a islamic theocracy where girls are stoned to death and gays are hanged I must be a National Socialist or something like that. You're absolutely wrong mate. My political belief is American Republicanism. If you don't know what it is read it here:

Read the Charter. Theocracy has not been mentioned at all. And in the end, there are muslims living in Libya. Do you want them to adopt western laws based on christianity? Do you really claim that? What is your legitimation to speak for the people of Libya? I don't want the teaparty to rule the US either, still, I have no say. Even though I consider them the pure evil, endangering my prosperity as well.

That is only a portrayal. Everyone is killing everyone in Syria right now, not just Syrian Army and not just the other side and the refugee's are trying to get away from all of that. See I don't want some rebels taking control of a Government if they are going to break International law before they even get settled into their positions because my country has to actually border these poor excuses for countries no matter what Government controls them. No matter what anybody says, the Syrian Government is a Secular one and I take kindly to anybody that could change that.

Meanwhile Turkey bombs the shit out of northern Iraq together with Iran, violating Iraq borders. All covered up by the libyan unrest. That is caused by supression of minorities, denying them equal rights and proper treatment. Obviously they are Kurds, a unique ethnic group with its own language and own culture. Why don't you grant them the rights to speak their language, to teach their language to have their culture accepted, as a part of plurality in the turkish state? Why do they have to be forced to adopt the turkish culture? You won't have peace until you let those people live the way they want to live, as a part of the turkish state and culture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/world/middleeast/22iraq.html

In the end, some people are totally paniced by the changes happening on earth, trying to establish the order of yesterday. However, yesterday is gone, whites and the West will become a minority on earth, having to grant concessions to the future powers of tomorrow. If you do not, you establish another dictatorship of a minority over a majority, which opposes the principal ideas of democracy. And as all dictatorships, that condition would never last forever.

Edit:///

on topic:

I almost forgot: There was an interesting article on a german newssite today, giving a hint about the size of the bunker below Gaddafis residence. Employees of the famous hotel housing the journalists in Tripoli told, that there is a door without handle in the basement, probably giving a direct link to the bunker below Gaddafis residence. The hotel is about 1 kilometer away from the residence. They also told about a locked onramp for vehicles leading below the hotel. Rumors say, that the Gaddafi bunker features tunnels large enough for vehicles to move inside, linking the different elements of the compound. Absolutely crazy.

I can also recommend this link to the BBC livestream site for latest news of fighting in Tripolis:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14610722#play-video

[Tolga<3]

Hi, the status of our airstrikes in Iraq have been discussed many times, and does not break International law simply because the Kurdish Regional Government and the Iraqi Government do nothing to get rid of the terrorists on their soil, the same thing has been practiced in Afghanistan. The airstrikes are a response to 60+ soldiers being killed in the course of 2 months. And Iran's operations have nothing to do with Turkey's, on the contrary one of our targets is Qandil mountain which is partially in Iran. Quite frankly I think they're lucky we aren't stacking 400 of them on top of each other like in the 90's.

Kurdish is optional to be taught in schools,  so I do not see any issues there, you from the 80's or something? Even the roadsigns in some cities are also written in 3 languages now (Turkish, English, Kurdish). The issue has outgrown rights of Kurds and is now about creating a Kurdish state, which btw will only cause more airstrikes because thats real violation of borders.

Now pl0x, get back on topic.

I'm not talking about Sharia or Islamic Caliphate in Europe, I'm talking about the future dangers these rebels we support could cause us. And I'm not an American Republican like Steiner here, I just don't hop on the Al Jazeera train yelling all the rebels are freedom loving democratic people and Qaddafi is the source of all the evil in the world.

FYI, if you guys wouldn't spend so much time looking at my country intervening in Iraq you guys would have noticed France too intervened by dropping bombs in Libya without even notifying other countries. Hell at least we give Baghdad a call when we go in.