Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => General Discussion => Topic started by: TASSER on 26-01-2012, 02:01:33
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Hey everyone,
I was wondering is some of the old timers wouldn't mind chiming in to give some insight into how the Forgotten Hope mod got its start. While its certainly easy to see how any person playing BF1942 would crave a more realistic experience; who was the person (or group) who actually said, "Hey! We should de a realism mod!" and got it going?
The archives on the website go back until October of 2003 (getting pretty close to a decade ago, how crazy is that?) and BF1942 was released in 2002.
I'm just interested in the history of the mod, any help is greatly appreciated! (That's why we're all interested in FH right? History? ;D)
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Well it was a bunch of people who thought that while BF42 was a great multiplayer game it lacked
A) historical accuracy and
B) an important part of the war (hence the name)
The inital idea was to add the early war (e.g. Poland, France) to BF42. And from there on it all developed gradually, slowly but also very impressively.
Some of the very early devs: AceS, ArminAce,Lobo (who was active quite a while).
I think from the current dev staff none was there at the very beginnings (or am I wrong?)
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IIRC, at one point the original Forgotten Hope mod merged with a pacific focused mod, and from there they started to expand into the rest of the war. Sadly this was before I started playing.
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whatever happened to Lobo?
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don't worry about it...
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I often wonder what happened to many of the late and greats from days gone by,
In general, most of them used Fh2 to buff their credentials and the moment that paycheques start to roll in they generally fucked right off from ever seeing us again. Personally, I miss their participation alot, as there used to be a time when we as the playerbase could actually interact with the creator's in the environments that they created.
In days gone by, it was not uncommon to face off against Dev squads. Hell, even Lobo used to visit WOLF (during NA hours) and there was, in general, a much greater sense of camarederie than exists today.
don't worry about it...
believe me when I say that many of us have worried about this. To this day, I still remember the last time I saw RAD online and it was shortly before his passing. He briefly joined us online, reminisced about past development, (in particular how RAD and CTZ spent shitloads of time just trying to get the BF2 mod editor to work) He finally said his goodbye, encouraged us to keep playing this wicked mod and...
A couple days later, he was dead, and we only found out because his sister saw fit to google us down and report the sad news of his passage.
Personally, after developing strong relationsships to some of these people, I see it as a slap in the face, the way that retired-Dev's are sort of pushed to the margins and not properly celebrated. For a change, it would be nice to know what happened to them.
Did they retire? Die? go bankrupt? Sign Non-disclosures/participation agreements? Get forced out over internal issues? Move onto bigger/ better mods? Martyr themselves in Afghanistan? Have children/get married?
It would be nice to know, but I bet we never will. The Fh2 community is mature and we can deal with the good news, as well as the bad, but I harbour suspicion that the FH2 team doesn't respect that fully.
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don't worry about it...
Although I sparred with Lobo a great deal on the filrfront forums I actually liked the guy. So where did he go?
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don't worry about it...
Although I sparred with Lobo a great deal on the filrfront forums I actually liked the guy. So where did he go?
Last seen about a month ago.
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Lobo left the team a while back for real life reasons. Other than that, its not really my place to say. I would love to comment further on this topic, but right now I have class, so I'll do so when I get back.
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Who is keeping you bunch together under his iron fist then?
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Noone. The dev team operates under the time honored principle of "creative chaos" and "whoever screams the loudest" ;)
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Aah, so angrybeaver leads you guys.
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Its like the Senate of Rome all over again!
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Aah, so angrybeaver leads you guys.
No no, Lightning is the screamer.
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@Sheik
Nobody is prohibited from posting. If any retired devs feels like posting they will. It''s just the way it goes, people get older and move on.
It''s good to see young people joining as developers, they are needed to keep this mod going.
And what's that about paychecks ? Anyone making dough because they modded for FH?
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Lobo is like online all the time. He plays loads of games like every day. :)
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Lobo is like online all the time. He plays loads of games like every day. :)
Yeah, I was about to say this. He's alive.
Or someone stole his Steam account.
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If I'm not mistaken, the guy that made FH so special (with its pretty realistic physics, non-wobbling tank, tank combats, heavy surface controls of the aeroplanes, etc) is Takiwa... then he moved to the Frontline mod, which fate for BF42 is unknown, but then it merged with BG42 to become BG:F.
FH was so over the top back then. It quickly introduced me to more WW2 vehicles than any other books in the planet that you can read in less than a week without getting bored. From the guys back in FF like Jummy, Bunny, Meadow (where is he now?), Yosssarian and many other guy I learned politics. From Lightning, Mudra, Anlushac, and most FH fans I learned history. People here still look down on gamers, but they know nothing about history, one of many school subject that we must take back then. So, I found FH a bit educational and contradict many other reality-bending games like Command&Conquer, MoH:AA, or many other title many people deemed "quite realistic."
I chose this community over many others, because it has this unique mix: gamer, into realism/accuracy, internet-savvy, WW2 and military enthusiasts, generally not afraid to push on difficult topics (it was much heavier discussions back in FF).
I moved on from other communities of my hobby like Avsim.com, and several other add-on developer forums from time to time. Even though they shared the same interests with me, but the people there aren't that up to my taste, too many typical CoD noob-like joining, untouchable devs, shallow discussion (too many stupid arguments on typical Airbus vs. Boeings), it gets tired easily, so I chose to move on to real life, hanging around with aviation enthusiasts community in real life. But for FH, it has been like 6 years (since late 2005) and still going on.
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Takiwa
No.
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Not him?
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You know sheikyerbouti, it is always shocking to see how much your posts lack both in humility and common sense.
In general, most of them used Fh2 to buff their credentials and the moment that paycheques start to roll in they generally fucked right off from ever seeing us again.
What are you even talking about? Or who? And if you are indeed talking about anyone in particular, it wuld be thrilling to find out which dev landed a high paying job thanks to FH2 and what you are basing that information on...
In days gone by, it was not uncommon to face off against Dev squads. Hell, even Lobo used to visit WOLF (during NA hours) and there was, in general, a much greater sense of camarederie than exists today.
The obvious nostalgia aside, one could probably argue that the devs would help the mod more by, you know, actually modding instead of running arund ingame in order to give random pubbies like you a feeling of involvement. However, a short glance at the stats page shows that there are tons of devs having played longer than you since 2.4, including MayhemicMAD, Kev4000, Schism RVTL and kettcar.
Personally, after developing strong relationsships to some of these people, I see it as a slap in the face, the way that retired-Dev's are sort of pushed to the margins and not properly celebrated. For a change, it would be nice to know what happened to them.
First of all: strong relationships?? Since I am generally under no illusion concerning the closeness of my relationship to any dev, I can't really tell how they spend their private lifes, however I will make an educated guess and say that they don't spend it knocking back beers with you. In fact, considering you are a vocal member of this community, yet have made no appearance on the beta testing team at all, one could argue that they don't even particularly like you or respect any opinioins you display on these forums. But again, that's just me, no dev ever talked to me about that and I in no way claim that that is their opinion.
To change the topic: "Celebrate them"? Like what? All the celebration a dev needs is people playing the mod and maybe their name on the site when they made something. What else do you want, updates on their social and professional life? Befriend them on facebok or something... RAD obviously was an exception due to the circumstances.
Sign Non-disclosures/participation agreements?
What kind of scheme do you think the devs are running here?
Get forced out over internal issues?
Yeah like the team is going to throw out actual talented people, it's not like they grow on trees.
Have children/get married?
Some devs did these things, yes. I'm sure azreal is hard at work on a news update detailing the private lives of all developers for your entertainment. I heard one of them is gay. I can't wait to find out which one!
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In fact, considering you are a vocal member of this community, yet have made no appearance on the beta testing team at all, one could argue that they don't even particularly like you or respect any opinioins you display on these forums.
You people don't like me? :'(
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Alright, we might as well be honest now you found out, Siben. No, we don't.
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I feel that not much is left from the old forgotten hope...
I still remember the good old days. The community feels more solid at that time, now, I just feel that there is indeed a community hanging around but the mod could be dead all of a sudden. (warning: this is just FEELING!)
There is one moment the mod started to lose the appeal, I think it is at FH 2.1 or something. Many problems contributed to the decline of the forgotten hope community and the development team ignores the suggestions from die-hard forgotten hope fans. While no-one now might agree, but I am a firm believer of the current SL-spawn system is something that crushed the mod. A war feeling is gone, as it was traded for fun. There are numerous posts on this and while no a single person could really defend the SL system with good logic it still stays.
The only thing that still make this mod survive is the exceptional quality of work. The mod indeed provides you of unrivaled gaming experience despite some shortcomings. For once, the 128p server seemed to bring FH2 back to its old glory, as it brings true large scaled fighting and eliminates "fun" for unrealistic/badass behaviors. Unfortunately, for whatever unknown reason the guy who almost made a revolution decided to hold back and 128p disappeared from the FH2 community.
To me fun is important but the core value of forgotten hope is something that cannot be traded away and must be preserved at all cost.
sorry for going off topic.
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Well anctoville was first without SL spawn and it was total flop.
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I remember ArminAce being one of the top developers of the early days. In those days he was often fighting with others in the comment section of BF1942.de when a FH newsupdate arrived. You can't imagine how noobish claims and statements were. A discussion like "We need the PIII" - "No, we don't." could be already considered substancial back then.
I'm not sure though whether it was him who created the armor system of tanks with its different penetration depending on the armor thickness. However that system seperated the noobish mods from the pro mods. There was no other mod for BF1942 having the ability to make a shell actually bounce off or draw different amounts of hitpoints depending on distance and angle. In BF1942 there was only hit or miss, always drawing the same amount of hitpoints.
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Well anctoville was first without SL spawn and it was total flop.
The spawnpoints were placed poorly and the APC spawn is not a good idea.
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I actually like the spawn system on Anctoville. Partly because it plays differently than other maps, but mostly because of how suddenly spawn points become the most vital part of the game. You really cant do anything but defend/attack spawn points, because a) that's where you always spawn, and b) that's where the enemy always spawns.
I've had plenty of epic attack/defense struggles over flags, most notably that one in the open field with the trench and wrecked tank.
I feel like this board is still pretty solid. It's just a little less open to casual posters. I tend to lurk more than post, and one of the biggest turn offs to my posting more often are the 600 page threads that seem impenetrable to someone who hast read them all or posted in it yet. I like to get into a fresh discussion of only a few pages or less so that I know what has been discussed. I dont see the point of combining similar threads into one massive "pictures and discussions about war" or "games of FH2 I've enjoyed" conglomerates. I know they're meant to cut down on repeat topics, but they make the forum less flowing, in my opinion.
As for the "decline of FH2" I think that is just some of the older segments of the community taking on more responsibilities and drifting off, other parts of the community becoming a bit jaded towards fresh ideas and suggestions, and the newer community joining when the mod is fully matured and thoroughly discussed.
tl,dr: Anctoville system makes for CP focused battles, forum is a bit bogged down, FH community needs to stop being old codgers.
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Mostly @ TS4
I won't name them but there is a minimum of 3 devs that come to mind as being employed in the software industry and I never said anything about "high paying". Play the google game and you can even track them down... (it's wicked easy to do especially NATTY WALLO ... cough)
BTW, i have turned down 3 separate offers to become a member of the Beta team. With published title experience (as a tester for EA, R-star, and others), I have no doubt that I could be a valuable asset but unfortunately the Fh2 testing hours are not amenable to both my geographic locale and the fact that in my 30's, I need to worry about getting paid and that means Sundays around the time that i wake up and Tuesdays during work hours don't exactly mesh well for me.
You completely missed the point that I tried to make, so maybe next time ask before you get on the offensive against me. I am a massive supporter of the FH2 community, unfortunately you don't see fit to recognize that.
P.S. ""However, a short glance at the stats page shows that there are tons of devs having played longer than you since 2.4, including MayhemicMAD, Kev4000, Schism RVTL and kettcar.""
With an official ranking (according to Ifihada) of 559/13429, how much more often do I need to play ???
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Lobo left the team a while back for real life reasons. Other than that, its not really my place to say. I would love to comment further on this topic, but right now I have class, so I'll do so when I get back.
Hey azreal, mind following up? I'd love to hear your experiences with the Mod!
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Oh. Well I was just going to respond to sheikyerbouti said, but Ts4Ever pretty much did it for me.
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Many of the older devs are still around, others have gone off with RL.
Major Hartmann coded the initial armour systems afaik. From what I heard, he's now got a job working with Abrams tanks somehow.
Zero is absent atm, though he always returns, typically after 6 months to a year without warning. He initially worked on the Pacific Shores mod which merged prior to FH 0.5's initial release.
McGibs is still around, though not active as a developer, he's gone pro doing graphic designs.
I've recently looked through FH1 airplane code a lot, and it does seem that initially Takiwa set it up. Digging through the archives, there was some rubble around his name, but he ended up on good terms.
FH team is like a rollercoaster ride. Overall we're doing as good as ever.
In some departments, content output is down, in others, its going better then ever.
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...
FH team is like a rollercoaster ride. Overall we're doing as good as ever.
In some departments, content output is down, in others, its going better then ever.
And that is mostly due to the work of such great and dedicated guys as yourself.
Thank you! ;D
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Yep thank you Kev
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thanks for the update Kev!! Much appreciated!
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Many of the older devs are still around, others have gone off with RL.
Major Hartmann coded the initial armour systems afaik. From what I heard, he's now got a job working with Abrams tanks somehow.
How cool is that :)
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Major Hartmann coded the initial armour systems afaik. From what I heard, he's now got a job working with Abrams tanks somehow.
How cool is that :)
That is pretty damn cool!
Kev, do you know if he's working for General Dynamics? (They're the company that actually builds the Abrams)
Just curious because I recently accepted a job with GD, although it's with a different department (Naval Systems as opposed to Land Systems. Submarines > Tanks on the coolness scale anyways ;)) I would be ecstatic if I bumped into a FH dev, especially working at a defense contracting company!
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Consider any company out there, most of them replace their entire staff in a 5-10 year period. A proof that FH is strong, is that we haven't gone belly-up just because some devs have left. We've acquired new ones to replace them. Pretty much like a company does. FH is old, really old in game-dev time. Older than many big studios out there :)
Then consider a human body, in a 7 year cycle, you replace your entire body. skincells etc, a fresh new "you" every 7 year!... The "you" you occupy when reading this sentence will be completely replaced in about 7 years from now. But you will still consider yourself "you" right? Because you carry over your memories and personalities etc to the new "you" The same way organisation does, bit by bit (person by person). Organisations functions like organisms, adapts, and evolves. As long as the personality is strong, it doesnt matter "who" runs it ;)
Im sure in a few years we have even more new guys, and some of us current devs are gone, as long as we have active players, and developers keen on learning how all this works, and with motivation to 'keep the ship floating' and going forward, we'll have a team and a living, breathing mod.
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Awww you guys still ARE adorable. :) Reading through all this can make one grumpy old man like myself pretty nostalgic. Those days.. long gone - and virtually covered under tremendous amounts of digital history - were the pinnacle of my activity as game developer. At no times before or after did I participate in anything quite like it. But people change and life draws one away from the joys of modding. And one after another us devs went on to spend their time with setting up families, revolutionizing medicine and designing automotive oddities. It is in the nature of such a project that things change, new people bring fresh air and old people resign. For such dynamics keep FH alive. I will not bath in the warm but deceiving waters of yesterday but rather leave you with this: Kudos to you new devs, who work to create and find joy in this alone. And kudos to you community, for being critic, base and bears.
Long live FH,
AceS
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Ow Hi oldtimer!
Good to see you still lurking around.
I've recently looked through FH1 airplane code a lot, and it does seem that initially Takiwa set it up. Digging through the archives, there was some rubble around his name, but he ended up on good terms.
Yeah I've heard that, I'm glad it ended that way.
Major Hartmann coded the initial armour systems afaik. From what I heard, he's now got a job working with Abrams tanks somehow.
How cool is that :)
That is pretty damn cool!
Kev, do you know if he's working for General Dynamics? (They're the company that actually builds the Abrams)
Just curious because I recently accepted a job with GD, although it's with a different department (Naval Systems as opposed to Land Systems. Submarines > Tanks on the coolness scale anyways ;)) I would be ecstatic if I bumped into a FH dev, especially working at a defense contracting company!
He could also be working for the Army Maintenance in Mobile, Alabama though. There are a lot of jobs created by this monster tank.
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Hey AceS! Great reading from you! I hope all is well and that you're having as much fun as ever!
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Hey AceS:
Cool to see a real oldtimer on the forums.
And youre the one of the only two FH devs who were featured on TV.. A real celebrity..
IIRC you and ArminAce were on GIGA TV around 2003 or 2004, correct? ;)
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Ah no...no, iirc our dear McGibs was also on TV. ;D
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and that was aces and towbee at giga tv. oh the good ol' days 8)
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anyone know whether/if their tv appearances are available anywhere on the web?
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It is really not that hard to figure out what happened to the original devs of 2002, 2003. Ten years ago, they were at a point in their lives where they had the skills and the time to work on the mod. This means that they were likely in, or had just finished university.
For those of you who have not yet experienced it, let me tell you what usually happens over the next ten years:
1) You get a job; and/or
2) You get married; and/or
3) You have kids.
Anyone of those three can be enough to completely derail your modding, (with the exception of number three which will almost defiantly derail your modding.)
It is no surprise to me at all that most (if not all) of the original devs have moved on.
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1) You get a job; and/or
2) You get married; and/or
3) You have kids.
Actually many of our devs have kids. Also many are married and have jobs. Some even all three. Luckily I have none.
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And that's why your name pops up as often as it does in the change-logs. ;D
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Kev4000: Forever alone.
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Kev4000: Forever alone.
He meant jobs. LOL, GG.
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Awww you guys still ARE adorable. :) Reading through all this can make one grumpy old man like myself pretty nostalgic. Those days.. long gone - and virtually covered under tremendous amounts of digital history - were the pinnacle of my activity as game developer. At no times before or after did I participate in anything quite like it. But people change and life draws one away from the joys of modding. And one after another us devs went on to spend their time with setting up families, revolutionizing medicine and designing automotive oddities. It is in the nature of such a project that things change, new people bring fresh air and old people resign. For such dynamics keep FH alive. I will not bath in the warm but deceiving waters of yesterday but rather leave you with this: Kudos to you new devs, who work to create and find joy in this alone. And kudos to you community, for being critic, base and bears.
Long live FH,
AceS
Hey Aces! Long live FH! Many of you guys don't know who the original creator of forgotten hope is! My old developer name was Stealthblade, back in 2002 I started recruiting new members to help create this wonderful mod. I created the name Forgotten Hope, and with the help of SenorDingDong we created a game based on 1940-1941. I also helped create one the first maps, weapon model, texture, and launched the first build of the game. A lot of the crew along with Sholin had departed from the FH project back in 2003 because of conflicts between members (this would happen because most of us were young to late teenagers at the time we started the project). SenorDingDong, ArminAce, Aces, Lobo, Sholin (also not mentioned in the forgotten hope staff), were the original staff and can vouch of my existence :)..
But regardless Forgotten Hope has came along way, and I'm proud every time I see a new update, or patch. Good luck all, and thanks for helping continue a project that started from the hopeful minds of a bunch of young guns, now adults :).
Myself, Now SGT Matlock of the US Army (6 years), is headed to TK afghanistan in jan 2013. I actually started making maps(worlds) for Quake and then for Tribes. Half life is what got me into the modding community and the idea of Forgotten Hope came before the launch of bf1942 believe it or not! Just thought I'd blow everyone's mind :) Not alot is known about the actual founder, most people think it was SenorDingDong, but he was actually the co-leader at the time before the first build launched on fileplanet. FHMOD was actually started over 10 years ago!
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Hey Stealthblade! Thanks so much for chiming in! I can't believe you found this thread! Not going to lie, I'm absolutely amazed we got your response! Just want you to know how much this mod which you brought to fruition is appreciated, right up to this very day. You laid the groundwork for over a decade of game development. That's pretty god damn incredible, you should be real proud!
Best of luck on your upcoming deployment. God bless ya for your service, and here's to a safe return home.
Tass
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Its always great to read this kind of stories.
Thanks for posting.
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Many thanks for starting this project back then and for the time you invested in it, Stealthblade. This mod definitely developed to something really awesome. Take care!
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Hey Stealthblade! Thanks so much for chiming in! I can't believe you found this thread! Not going to lie, I'm absolutely amazed we got your response! Just want you to know how much this mod which you brought to fruition is appreciated, right up to this very day. You laid the groundwork for over a decade of game development. That's pretty god damn incredible, you should be real proud!
Best of luck on your upcoming deployment. God bless ya for your service, and here's to a safe return home.
Tass
Thank you Tasser and everyone else for your responses. The truth is, without your thread here and the interest from fans to know the origins and history of FH I would have never came out from under the rock so to speak. It all started very much the same way.
One day there was an idea to create a game, "by gamers for gamers". What does this mean? We all wanted "more than the usual", that means, accurate history, more realism, more weapons, vehicles, maps, planes, tanks, and everything powered by this wonderful refractor game engine (bf1942). This same structure of Forgotten Hope seems to have held strong, even over a decade of years past, has yet to change that fact.
My passion for gaming hasn't left me, nor will it ever leave a true gamer. Right after FH, I went on to join a Half-life 2 mod called Jedi Timeline, where I helped design, texture, and write most of the initial story. After spending months consumed in modding it was that time period of my life where I needed to decide what to do with my life. So i got a job, a car, and a girlfriend, we all know how life goes sometimes. I always loved everything military so I had that something inside me that wanted to experience anything similar to the stories I grew up hearing, seeing, and playing. The one thing it has given me is the respect for all those who have sacrificed for a greater good, even sometimes when they didnt agree.
I will press on, and there is nothing more satisfying than knowing thousands of people have enjoyed playing a game that was created for them from the very start.. this mod came to be without the help of funding, advertisement, and everything else but HOPE.. hope that people would enjoy the very same game we wanted to play as well.
Will I ever try again? Time has yet to answer that question but don't think for a second I haven't thought about what could be. Thanks very much to every single modder that helped on this project, it couldn't have been done without you. But thanks to the fans of the game most of all because you guys are the ones that motivated them to press on, to keep rolling out those updates, and patches because you wanted more, the very same foundation this game was created on.
To many more years of Forgotten Hope! *cheers*
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CLASSIC thread, thanks to everyone for chiming in and more importantly thanks to anyone and everyone that put work into FH2. Such a big part of my life.
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About 10 years ago my username was still [GFAQS] AbuzerNL and I rocked BF42 around the clock. I played the desert mod a bit, and the Vietnam mod, both were nice but I also noticed this 'authentic' WW2 mod. I found it a bit weird in the first instance, since bf42 was already a ww2 themed game ( ;D).
The ww1 mod actually looked more interesting to me (bf1918? That never really got off the ground).
But I tried FH 0.5 or 0.7 and was instantly hooked. The community was nice and the game was really really good. I remember when it merged with the pacific mod, and boy there were so much maps to play on.
Fast forward to 2007, I just got around to buy a new pc before FH2 was released (such a long wait) and I am now enjoying FH on a weekly bases. Of course I miss some players from back in the day, I can't remember most of their names even. And I miss some players nowadays as well (has anybody seen Beatrix NL lately? Or VonSmall?)
Today, I enjoy the community and the board a lot. Like someone said before: nice, tech savy, people with a knack for history, warfare and WW2. Just like myself.
But I'm bothered by the low playercount at times and the schism between the regular (almost never played servers) and 762 server. Also the maps now become a bit boring at times, I can't enjoy Gazala or Totalize with 40 people anymore. :-\
I guess that stuff gets to you after you play a game for 5 years (or 10 if you count my early FH days)
Last word goes out to the devs and players that keep this community and game going. Thanks for giving this important part of my leisure life. (Close second to alcohol)
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*EXTREME NECROMANCING*
Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I wanted to put this in a related thread and this one seemed most appropriate (and perhaps interesting for those who may have missed it).
Anyway, I was poking around the Way Back Machine internet archive site for some nostalgia trips and you can see one of the early FH websites back when the mod was still young.
I got introduced to Forgotten Hope shortly before this pre-0.7 version of FH1 website was abandoned for the current website. The snapshot is heavily fragmented and fucked up, but you can still see some interesting early FH history! :)
There is content hidden against the black background, just highlight the area with your mouse. The links still work to bring you to different parts of the site or to other snapshots.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040701083303/http://forgottenhope.bf1942files.com/main.html
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Oh that's really cool! Thanks for sharing this piece of FH history- I had never seen the old site :)
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Wow I lot of vehlichles is developing faze!
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Wow, lots of vehicles never made it past development phase!
Corrected that for you.
And yes, it's really weird seeing all that stuff that never made it into the mod. Like the B-24 Liberator, SM79, Short Sunderland, V1 ... Or did it? Can't seem to recall it being used on any map...
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My guess is that at this stage of development their ambition was bigger than their competence, so many models might have been unreleasable or ditched later. You can also see lots of maps in there that were later deleted because they were clearly not very good.