Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Off-Topic => Off-Topic => Topic started by: [130.Pz]S.Tiemann on 17-07-2010, 23:07:04

Title: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [130.Pz]S.Tiemann on 17-07-2010, 23:07:04
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/07/16/canada-jets.html (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/07/16/canada-jets.html)

Canada recently bought some new F-35s, and im curious on peoples opinion of the aircraft.
Waste of money? Or valuable purchase?
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Tolga<3 on 17-07-2010, 23:07:03
I think Canada could use something more 'multirole' than an F-35, seeing as though an F-35 can only carry 2 A2A missiles (at least internally)... I would have gone with Eurofighter, but eh good choice nonetheless. Congrats to the Canadians.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 17-07-2010, 23:07:06
Since the canucks often built these plane's localy (CF86, CF-104, CF-18) this will be a great boost for their economy
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Mr.Deceptive on 17-07-2010, 23:07:49
This is actually super sick.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Fuchs on 18-07-2010, 01:07:33
After seeing the whole mess in the Netherlands around the 'JSF' I can surely say this feels like having a huge pile of money, putting some petrol on it, lighting it up and then applaud to your great deeds.

Bad Canada.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 18-07-2010, 02:07:05
Yeah i have to agree with Tolga...Either a Eurofighter or maybe a Mirage 2000-5 since both are great airplanes...
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: silian on 18-07-2010, 02:07:12
Seeing as Canada has invested something like $150m into the JSF program, it's highly unlikely that they'd replace their CF-188's with Typhoons, Gripens or Rafales.

Quote from: Tolga<3
I think Canada could use something more 'multirole' than an F-35, seeing as though an F-35 can only carry 2 A2A missiles (at least internally)... I would have gone with Eurofighter, but eh good choice nonetheless. Congrats to the Canadians.

The F-35 can carry four AAM's internally.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [130.Pz]S.Tiemann on 18-07-2010, 03:07:38
IMO you cant compare the european fighters to american ones. The f35 is much more advanced then the euro offerings. I would rather keep the CF-18s then buy typhoon or gripen.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Stefan on 18-07-2010, 04:07:09
its gonna be very very expensive, i hope Belgium will buy Eurofighter or Rafale next, i feel sorry for you Canadians.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [130.Pz]S.Tiemann on 18-07-2010, 04:07:47
Some of the cost will be recouped through the business opportunities our industry will recieve. Also when i comes to things like fighters i don't think you can cheap out and buy the less expensive but less capable choice. Put a eurofighter up against a F-35 and your going to take some heavy losses.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 18-07-2010, 04:07:35
Quote
The F-35 is supposed to have 3/4 stealth, versus only front quadrant for the EFA. Also, only the RAF Eurofighters will have Lockheed Martin stealth technology, so the rest will be significantly inferior to the F-35 in that regard. Finally, the F-35 has internal weapons, vs external for the Eurofighter, but, Detection ranges for both will be significantly reduced, compared to today's engagements. That may only mean the F-35 detects a Eurofighter ten or twenty of kilometres before the latter detects the F-35. That is not very far, when jet speeds are considered. Also, don't forget the Eurofighter has a modern IR tracker on board. It may be able focus the unit down the path of an F-35's active radar signal, using ESM, to detect the F-35 for a shot much earlier than the latter expects. Finally, the Tranche 2 and 3 Eurofighters will have vectored-thrust, making them very manouverable. That means if well flown they might be able to break a radar lock, or dodge AMRAAMS, and close rapidly for an IR tracker guided shot or a WVR engagement. Up close, things would equal out a lot, perhaps with the odds going slightly in the Eurofighter's favour, due to better manouverability. In short, the F-35 has some advantages, but its pilots would be well advised not to underestimate the EFA.

Quote
- Is superior in load missiles and munitions performance fighter aircraft, business high altitude, extreme maneuverability, high thrust to weight ratio, sustained supersonic and hypersonic flight businesses without afterburning (supercruise)
- Is equivalent in mediating the Networked sensors and conduct mission
-Its only inferior to stealth capabilities

This one is translated from Greek so its not good translated


Greece was/is planning on buying either the F35 or the EFT . I would say they take the Eurofighter.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Stefan on 18-07-2010, 04:07:28
how would you know?

I read about planes on a daily basis since its a hobby of mine since i was a kid, and i havent read much good about the F35, delays , got very expensive... and shortcutting alot of the capabilities for the sake of "stealth".
So im not sure what you mean by "less capable", the euro canards do very well in competitions even against the F22.

About the participation in the program, as you read above, several nations that signed up early not only got shocked by the total cost of the program, but also the lack of technology transfer and lack of local contracts for their industry, not to mention you wont be allowed to assemble them , with 65 planes you would be allowed to assemble the Eurofighter.

In the end, just like was the case with Australia, it is a political decission, not one of cost and capabilities.

Quote
The contract with US company Lockheed Martin was signed without a competitive bidding process

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10667633

Says it all
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 18-07-2010, 05:07:51
There's some serious business competition going on in the fighter world these days, between the MiG-35, JSF, EF2000, F-16 Block 52+, Silent Eagle, Rafale, Super Hornet, Gripen and Su-30MKI.

It's all about, do you want to wait for an expensive 5th generation fighter that will hopefully allow you to dominate the skies, or get a 4.5 generation fighter now that's a lot cheaper than a 5th gen and with only slightly reduced capability?

Part of it I think is based on how urgently a nation thinks its fighters need to be replaced. And the rest is who has the best political/business ties.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Captain Pyjama Shark on 18-07-2010, 05:07:04
Is it really that unpracticle that this plane thingy doesn't have many anti-aircraft missiles?  I may be wrong but I don't see many future situations where the Canucks will have much to shoot down.  (Or anybody else for that matter.)
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: :| Hi on 18-07-2010, 07:07:08
F-16 block 52 plus <3
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Mud Buddha on 18-07-2010, 11:07:10
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/07/16/canada-jets.html (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/07/16/canada-jets.html)

Canada recently bought some new F-35s, and im curious on peoples opinion of the aircraft.
Waste of money? Or valuable purchase?

Here in Holland we're kind of obliged now to get the F-35 too, since we've invested such a large amount of money in the project (@ S. Thieman: it's almost just as european as the Eurofighter), but personally I think it's gone out of control. With this recent financial crisis there's a lot to do about cutting costs. College-grants, healthcare, pensionfunds, everything gets the treatment, while all they have to do is just dump the F-35 program and save piles of cash. Just get a couple of Gripens and were good (no Eurofighter please, it's hella ugly). We're a small country and simply don't need such an overly expensive sci-fi fighter. The whole JSF thing is just the dutch sucking up to big brother US of A.

Same goes for Canada, they don't need it and getting the F-35 can only be described as a political choice. Even if they build it themselves (good for local economy) why not just build some Dassaults or some Saabs?
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-07-2010, 12:07:50
its gonna be very very expensive, i hope Belgium will buy Eurofighter or Rafale next, i feel sorry for you Canadians.
Hahaha! My dad works in the Belgium airforce (well, he is retired since 3 weeks ago) and everyone their knows that their wont be any new planes after the F16  ;D
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Kelmola on 18-07-2010, 13:07:29
I think the F-35 is a true "Jack of all trades, master of none". Or rather, a brave but futile attempt to downscale F-22 in size and in cost, at the cost of capabilities.

Sure, it's stealth, but it's still no F-22 or F-117. It carries a pitifully small weapons load internally (four AAM's, but only of certain size - can't fit four AMRAAM's, has to be two plus two Sidewinders). Add weapon pylons, and suddenly it's not so stealthy anymore. And even with the extra pylons, it still can't carry very much compared to the planes it is supposed to replace. The 25 mm cannon might be more powerful than the venerable M61 Vulcan, but it's still no tank-busting cannon like the GAU-8/A of Warthog. Without drop tanks, the range is also nothing to write home about. No supercruise, although the thrust/weight ratio is decent in the CTOL version. Instead of having completely vectored thrust like the Harrier, the STOVL versions use a liftjet which is just so much dead weight when not taking off or landing, plus makes the plane bigger than it would be without.

Unfortunately, there has been few reports on mock dogfights against other modern jets, but on paper it would seem that it is clearly inferior to the F-22, and that the Eurofighter would be better in air-to-air role (maybe also in strike role). I hear the manufacturer has been claiming that with the helmet-mounted display (and supposedly "360 degree view") and such, manoeuverability would no longer be an issue, but I think we heard pretty much the same story slightly before Vietnam War. Less wealthy nations would probably ignore both and go for Su-35BM or the "future aircraft" MiG tries to build for the Indian Air Force.

The wild card is the development of next-generation UAV's, which could potentially become operational around the same time when F-35 enters large-scale service. Interestingly enough, there has not been "mock dogfights" between combat UAV's and manned aircraft yet, depending on what the results of those would be, the entire F-35 program might be simply too late.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-07-2010, 13:07:21
Planes like the Gripen, rafale, eurofighter or a new block F16, F18 and F15 have same or even better performance, payload, 3 times less costs and maintance needed

With only a sacrifice in an amount of stealth capability, wich btw doesnt make the F35 fully stealthed.

Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Mud Buddha on 18-07-2010, 16:07:47

[...]  the entire F-35 program might be simply too late.

Yeah, I think the F35 is one of the last gasps of breath of the cold war. The world has become such a different place the last 15 /20 years or so, compared to 50 years of polarized Cold War, and decades long development periods for billion dollar airplanes simply don't fit into this day and age anymore, no matter how versatile they are.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-07-2010, 16:07:07
Airforces around the world will probaly invest more in Small counter insurgency aircraft then billion dollar jets. Simply because the main threats atm are terrorism. Not gaint armies
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Nerdsturm on 18-07-2010, 18:07:07
The wild card is the development of next-generation UAV's, which could potentially become operational around the same time when F-35 enters large-scale service. Interestingly enough, there has not been "mock dogfights" between combat UAV's and manned aircraft yet, depending on what the results of those would be, the entire F-35 program might be simply too late.

I work with non-military UAVs at school, including working on ones that compete in military-sponsored competitions, and I honestly can't say I could see these competing with manned jets anytime soon in an air superiority role. Under the current control system, you would need to have a way to track enemy targets and fire on them autonomously, as the controller doesn't have direct control of the UAV(all he can do really is give is preset orders, such as to fly to a GPS location, or in a set pattern, ect. A more direct method would cause problems due to the signal delay between the UAV and controller, not to mention defeat a lot of the reasons UAVs are useful). This creates a problem with stealth fighters, as aircraft would be jumping in and out of radar, and any sort of evasive maneuvers or countermeasures would be difficult to implement.

I can't say UAVs won't improve significantly by the time F-35s enter service, but it would be pointless to have mock dogfights involving UAVs at the current time because they would be mauled by any modern aircraft.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Stefan on 18-07-2010, 19:07:33
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 18-07-2010, 19:07:40
Well stealth is good but i can recall that F117 which got dropped at Yugoslavia a few years ago.It was stealth and yet it got shot down some way...And the F35 is not exactly sure if it does have good Stealth capabilities .


Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Nerdsturm on 18-07-2010, 19:07:00
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

This would be equivalent to nuclear war, no sane nation would do it because it would screw everyone over for a very, very long time. Pieces of debris from an exploded satellite would not fall back to earth, and it's estimated that only a few more cases such as the one where China blew up a weather satellite in orbit would make debris a serious threat to all satellites still in orbit, as well as disrupt some telecommunications. Destroying dozens of satellites at once could prevent usage of all technologies that use satellites, which is a lot of very important ones.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-07-2010, 20:07:39
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

This would be equivalent to nuclear war, no sane nation would do it because it would screw everyone over for a very, very long time. Pieces of debris from an exploded satellite would not fall back to earth, and it's estimated that only a few more cases such as the one where China blew up a weather satellite in orbit would make debris a serious threat to all satellites still in orbit, as well as disrupt some telecommunications. Destroying dozens of satellites at once could prevent usage of all technologies that use satellites, which is a lot of very important ones.
Actually, if a global war like that would commence, not a single army would dare to launch their nukes.

Nukes are a threat weapon. Just like gas was in WW2. All countries had huge stockpiles, and they never used them
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 18-07-2010, 21:07:37
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

The problem is, other countries also use our GPS for their military operations, including countries that we might be fighting.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 18-07-2010, 21:07:29
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

This would be equivalent to nuclear war, no sane nation would do it because it would screw everyone over for a very, very long time. Pieces of debris from an exploded satellite would not fall back to earth, and it's estimated that only a few more cases such as the one where China blew up a weather satellite in orbit would make debris a serious threat to all satellites still in orbit, as well as disrupt some telecommunications. Destroying dozens of satellites at once could prevent usage of all technologies that use satellites, which is a lot of very important ones.
Actually, if a global war like that would commence, not a single army would dare to launch their nukes.

Nukes are a threat weapon. Just like gas was in WW2. All countries had huge stockpiles, and they never used them

Italians did.So did American i think and Japanese but not sure about those.For Italy though i am sure they used them against the Ethiopians.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 19-07-2010, 00:07:12

Italians did.So did American i think and Japanese but not sure about those.For Italy though i am sure they used them against the Ethiopians.

Italians used gas in the Abyssinian War of 1935-1936, not in WW2.

Japanese did use chemical and biological weapons in China on several occasions.

The USA never used chemical weapons, although they had them on stockpile in case they were needed. A ship carrying mustard gas was bombed by German planes in an Italian port and released the gas into the city, killing a lot of people.

The US also considered using gas against Japanese troops hiding in tunnels on Iwo Jima, but decided not to. The use of chemical weapons was also considered for the invasion of Japan.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Fuchs on 19-07-2010, 01:07:53
And if I remember correctly, told to me a long time ago when I asked it, some gas was accidently fired on Monte Cassino.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: siben on 19-07-2010, 01:07:05
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

The problem is, other countries also use our GPS for their military operations, including countries that we might be fighting.

Europe is building its own at the moment and it should be operational within a few years (only europe at he moment, not the rest of the world), and IIRC Russia already has there own system that is basicly the same as GPS.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 19-07-2010, 01:07:49
Sukhoi T50 what do you say about this plane? I heard it will be better than a F22 Raptor ?? As i've read somewhere it can go supersonic without the need of afterburn use.Although it is currently at prototype level...
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Kelmola on 19-07-2010, 01:07:37
Re the F-117 shootdown, it's still debated whether the Serbs modified their radars to help detect the F-117 when it (briefly) opened its weapon bay doors on its attack run, or did they simply shoot by visually sighting with an IR tracker or night vision. The F-117's had until then used fixed "corridors" to fly in and out of target areas, and those fixed corridors would have made them also extremely vulnerable to radars, stealth or no stealth, and even detection by the plain old Mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball.

Re the UAV's and their reliance on satellites, read a couple of articles of US Predators & Reapers in Afghanistan. What people might not realize is that in case of satellite failure there is always a full piloting team near the frontlines ready to take over through direct radio link. Also, landings and take-offs are always conducted by this team, to avoid the lag, and with the purpose-defeating direct control input. Nevermind that the drone could do this better than a human, it's just a political decision to have human input when taking off/landing. Also, current software allows the drones to acquire targets independently, basically if in "combat mode" they will pick up the nearest laser designation (on an allowed frequency) and manoeuver into attack position, again the human "pilot" is only required pull the trigger both for practical (target ID and confirmation) and political, not for any technical reasons. The only part a UAV cannot (yet) do itself is target designation.

Very few nations have any anti-satellite capability by the way, and taking out enough GPS and communication satellites to make a noticeable effect would be a challenge even for the superpowers. Also, the Chinese, Russian and Indian kill vehicles are essentially modified ICBM's (instead of a pimped SAM like the American SM-3 or an airplane-launched rocket like the ASAT of old or the Russian system in development), and in the case of a shooting war, I certainly wouldn't launch several ICBM's and assume that the opponent believes I'm just firing kinetic projectiles at their satellites.

Yes, F-35 will likely be in service sooner than it could be fully replaced with UAV's. Most likely, some tasks simply cannot be performed by an UAV in the foreseeable future and will have to be handled by manned aircraft. However, the question remains, do you need a non-stealth stealth fighter full of compromises costing several times as much as a regular fighter, or a "conventional" aircraft to perform the said roles? And even though you would have logistically easier having one plane do all the combat roles, can it really deliver good enough results as opposed to more specialized plane types?
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 19-07-2010, 01:07:01

Europe is building its own at the moment and it should be operational within a few years (only europe at he moment, not the rest of the world), and IIRC Russia already has there own system that is basicly the same as GPS.

Russia does have its own GLONASS system but China IIRC currently piggy-backs on the American system.

The hardest part about shooting down a GPS satellite would be shooting down ones in other places. Remember GPS satellites are in geostationary orbit which means they are far enough away from the earth so that they orbit at the same speed the earth is turning. China might could shoot down the GPS satellites over its own territory with its new ASAT missile, but shooting down satellites stationed over other countries would be far more difficult.

Also with regards to the F-117A shootdown I remember reading somewhere that the plane may have been wet when it was shot down after flying through rain and that being wet reduces its stealth characteristics. Is there any truth to this?

Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: siben on 19-07-2010, 02:07:29
Well, water reflects radar otherwise there would be no weather radar...

So it could have an effect, but does being wet make such a difference? My common sense says no, there is a difference between being wet (and how long would a plane be wet in flight anyway, you would think a 500+ km/h wind on a hard surface would make you dry in a matter of seconds, and a storm would be a very good cover from radar with all the fake signals) and a massive downpour.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Eat Uranium on 19-07-2010, 02:07:32
The hardest part about shooting down a GPS satellite would be shooting down ones in other places. Remember GPS satellites are in geostationary orbit which means they are far enough away from the earth so that they orbit at the same speed the earth is turning. China might could shoot down the GPS satellites over its own territory with its new ASAT missile, but shooting down satellites stationed over other countries would be far more difficult.
GPS satelites are in the zone just above low earth orbit.  They are nowhere near far enough out to be geostationary.  So it would take a few days I think, but you could shoot them all down over your land.

I'm not even sure if these anti-satelite rockets would even be able to reach geo-stationary orbit.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 19-07-2010, 03:07:29

GPS satelites are in the zone just above low earth orbit.  They are nowhere near far enough out to be geostationary.  So it would take a few days I think, but you could shoot them all down over your land.

Hmm...it seems that you are right and it seems that geostationary satellites must be placed over the equator. So a geostationary system could not provide full coverage in the far north and south.

However GPS satellites are in what is called Medium Earth Orbit at about 20,000 km out from the earth (LEO is 160-2000 km, Geostationary is 35,000). So they're closer to Geostationary than they are to LEO.

GPS constellation:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/ConstellationGPS.gif)
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Eat Uranium on 19-07-2010, 03:07:44
That far out?  Well, I never knew that.

I wonder where they launch from to get retrograde orbits.  Though saying that, I've looked at that gif now for 2 minutes and I actually have less idea of the 3D shape than when I started.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: siben on 19-07-2010, 03:07:18
try this site, explains it rather clear.
http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/orbits.htm
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 19-07-2010, 04:07:41
That far out?  Well, I never knew that.

I wonder where they launch from to get retrograde orbits. 

According to Astronautix.com the first 11 Block 1 development satellites were launched from Vandenberg AFB in California, but since then all launches have been from Cape Canaveral.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: DLFReporter on 19-07-2010, 09:07:50
A lot of nations are building their own GPS system nowadays, which is quite sensible if you rely on the system for almost everything and then the US goes to war again and suddenly the service is shut down or reduced in quality.

Anyhow imo (and I am saying this as an aeronautical engineer) the age of fighters is over. Any investment there is like burning money. We have drones that can do the job cheaper and more efficient with less risk to a costly trained pilot.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 19-07-2010, 10:07:59
I watched a program yesterday about how future airwar will take place.  The hypothetical scenario put the Co-allition forces flying F-22 (Raptor), F-35 (Lightening), and B-1 (Lancer), MQ-1 (Predator) into attack against an heavily defended country with an extensive SAM network, Rafele and Mig 29s.

The F-22 using stealth - break through small corridors in the SAM network
The MQ-1 predators deliberatley trip the SAM network, lighting up SAM sites on radar to for the F-35s
The predators are immediatley shot down by the SAMs - and Rafele /Migs scrambled
F-35s attack the SAM sites knocking a wider hole in the network for B-1s to continue to main target
F-22 are already in position to deal with or divert the Rafele/ Mig who have taken to the sky
As the F-22 are stealthed, they do not appear on Rafele or Mig radar unless in visual contact, the F-35s are faint but the B-1s (not stealthed) show up - chances are someone will go after the B-1s.
The F-35s get radar contact on any Rafele or Mig that break through the F-22 formation and relay the enemy positions to the B-1 - it's the B-1 that does a lot of the firing from miles and miles away, the F-35s essentially play a forward eyes only role.

So having read a lot of the comments, yes the F-35 is shitty compared to most other aircraft in the sky - but you are putting it into a plane vs plane scenario, which future wars will not nesessarily be fought like this, it will be joint operations between aircraft skilled in different roles.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 19-07-2010, 12:07:33
Not much new about that scenario, sounds like they copied Israel's plans for the Battle of the Beka'a Valley in 1982.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Zoologic on 19-07-2010, 17:07:54
Exactly, replace that shitty F-35 with attacking A-4s and "wild-weasel"ing F-4I Kurnass and the super F-22 with F-15.

BTW, didn't military and civilian GPS use the same satellite feedback? You didn't jam them or destroy them on purpose, because a lot of civilian aircraft navigation relies on GPS precision to back their standard Inertial Reference System IRS/ADIRS/ADIRU (some stupid different manufacturers who have their own term for the same thing). These days, you can't guarantee accelerometers and gyroscopes are free from interferences.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Kelmola on 19-07-2010, 18:07:06
F-35s attack the SAM sites knocking a wider hole in the network for B-1s to continue to main target
The F-35s get radar contact on any Rafele or Mig that break through the F-22 formation and relay the enemy positions to the B-1 - it's the B-1 that does a lot of the firing from miles and miles away, the F-35s essentially play a forward eyes only role.
Ummm... attacking fixed SAM sites (or waiting for mobile launcher to turn on its radar) is actually something that a UAV, particularly a stealthed next-gen UAV could easily do. Considering SEAD is where you are most likely to lose pilots and planes, that is also probably the first application of next-gen "combat UAV's". Also, working as a remote sensor platform does not require a pilot on board. Also, if the F-35's in this scenario just fire at the "leakers", they are not expected to really dogfight, so again, no need for a pilot.

In a conventional, large-scale war with easily identifiable (and designated) targets the UAV's would actually be easiest to deploy, even in autonomous mode. Paradoxically, they were first deployed in counter-insurgency warfare, which requires constant human supervision and totally precludes autonomous target designation.

Plus, MiG-29 is old technology, the scenario becomes more complex if new Russian planes that are as "semi-stealthy" as Rafale (Flanker derivatives at the moment) are added in the mix. Granted, nobody (including the Russian Air Force) is using them at the moment, but probably will by the time F-35 has entered service.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 11:07:49
Yeah the same program stated that the MQ-1 Predator was just the tip of the iceberg and that sucessor models would carry yet another forward observation drone - a drone on a drone, this smaller lightweight (cheap) aircraft would trigger the SAM network ahead of the motherships so that the mobile and static SAMs show on Radar, allowing the mothership UAVs carrying the bomb payload to take them out.

And I was looking forward to seeing what the Aurora can do :( - seems the US is taking a divert into unmanned areial technology and satalite networks to do the job of high flying spy planes, makes sense really, but man, the whole Aroura thing was cool, Mach 10.5, fuck could anyone withstand that? I mean the stopping ditance once you got to Mach 10.5 must be the width of the US itself...
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Raziel on 20-07-2010, 12:07:28
seeing what the Aurora can do ...

I once saw the Aurora or something similar flying over our airspace. It was definitely flying really fast and high. Was also producing doughnut smoke trails behind it. (It sounded like a muffled very fast wham wham wham wham)  :o
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: DLFReporter on 20-07-2010, 13:07:58
... Mach 10.5, fuck could anyone withstand that? I mean the stopping ditance once you got to Mach 10.5 must be the width of the US itself...

What's so bad about Mach 10.5? It's all about how fast you reach that speed. Iirc a jet would be designed to get there with a mere ~4 G, as not to destroy the plane and the pilot.

[I once saw the Aurora or something similar flying over our airspace. It was definitely flying really fast and high. Was also producing doughnut smoke trails behind it. (It sounded like a muffled very fast wham wham wham wham)  :o

Pulsed Thrusters are an interesting thing. I love the megalomaniac idea of the Orion project. ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3Lxx2VAYi8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3Lxx2VAYi8)
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 13:07:26
Quote
What's so bad about Mach 10.5? It's all about how fast you reach that speed. Iirc a jet would be designed to get there with a mere ~4 G, as not to destroy the plane and the pilot.

if you hit a flock of birds at 10.5?



Orion, I remember that, it was on the tail end of a conspiracy that the $9 billion hole in the US defense budget was being plyed into CERN in exchange for dark matter which could be used in a pulse detonation engine for an interplanetary vessel.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: DLFReporter on 20-07-2010, 13:07:05
if you hit a flock of birds at 10.5?
Show me a flock of birds that flies at the altitudes which you need to go Mach 10.5. ^^

Orion, I remember that, it was on the tail end of a conspiracy that the $9 billion hole in the US defense budget was being plyed into CERN in exchange for dark matter which could be used in a pulse detonation engine for an interplanetary vessel.

When was that supposed to be? ^^
Edit: I mean, when did the defence budget ever run with a $9 billion hole?
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Kelmola on 20-07-2010, 14:07:21
Orion, I remember that, it was on the tail end of a conspiracy that the $9 billion hole in the US defense budget was being plyed into CERN in exchange for dark matter which could be used in a pulse detonation engine for an interplanetary vessel.
Uh.... real-life Project Orion effectively ended in 1963 and it was about using nukes for propulsion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Thorondor123 on 20-07-2010, 14:07:23
Nay, this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(spacecraft)
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 14:07:01
Show me a flock of birds that flies at the altitudes which you need to go Mach 10.5. ^^

Flamingoes you idiot!

Quote
Uh.... real-life Project Orion effectively ended in 1963 and it was about using nukes for propulsion...

I'm simply quoting a program I watched, where the narrator says - from the project Orion came new ideas for PDEs, including the SCi-Fi application of new materials such a dark matter, or refinement of the ion thrust propulsion.  I am not stating any of this as fact simple regurgetating a TV show, so pls, stop debunking my comments like I've stamped "this is the law" on them.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: DLFReporter on 20-07-2010, 14:07:12
Flamingoes you idiot!

Silly me, how could I forget the stratospheric red Flamingoes, the scourge of all Aviation. Damn!
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Fuchs on 20-07-2010, 14:07:23
Scourge of all aviation? They are the true aviators, mankind hopped in real late annoying the flamingoes.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 14:07:43
When was that supposed to be? ^^
Edit: I mean, when did the defence budget ever run with a $9 billion hole?

The only online ref i can find to it is on Wikipedia (so it must be true) and Popular Science 2006 (Oct) which you can read online http://issuu.com/yufei.chang/docs/popular_science_october2006
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 20-07-2010, 14:07:14
We all know that USA is using its money to create in secrecy a metal gear...That whole BP incident is just a cover up for this.They are building Arsenal Gear .
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 14:07:58
We have a public access document in Uk that lists 3 types of supersonic US aircraft permitted over Uk airspace at high altitude, of course two of the names are erased - only the retired Blackbird name remains.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: Kelmola on 20-07-2010, 15:07:49
So that means Aurora and Blackstar ;D
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 20-07-2010, 16:07:19
According to the former director of Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works, Aurora was just a codename for an early design of the B-2 Stealth Bomber.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: DLFReporter on 20-07-2010, 16:07:01
According to the former director of Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works, Aurora was just a codename for an early design of the B-2 Stealth Bomber.

Heard that as well some time ago.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: von.small on 20-07-2010, 16:07:30
So that means Aurora and Blackstar ;D

Blackstar - the same as Blackswift? I saw (on a conspiracy site) some radio chatter where two aircraft flying out of Groom Lake had callsigns 'Blackstar Novemeber' and 'Blackstar Mike'.  Although the author did say that 'Blackstar' was the callsign of an Arial Recon unit, it was the first time anybody had heard it in use outside of the military. 
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: sniper77shot on 20-07-2010, 16:07:45
Old news for me, we also bought some joint support ships to anyone who is intrested. Most likely from the Dutch design of there joint support ships, I had a picture but the site has malware now, so I won't post links.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 20-07-2010, 17:07:32
The rumor of a spaceplane codenamed "Blackstar" surfaced in an Aviation Week article in 2006:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/030606p1.xml

The above report has been met with widespread skepticism:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Blackstar_A_False_Messiah_From_Groom_Lake.html [website is down ATM]
http://thespacereview.com/article/576/1

Now, obviously classified aircraft exist. The US Air Force just a few months ago revealed a new type of stealth reconnaissance drone that had been used in secret for 5 years.

But I'm skeptical of reports of secret spaceships and Mach 10 superplanes. It just doesn't make sense, technologically or economically.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: THeTA0123 on 20-07-2010, 17:07:55
dam

i so miss the cold war


i just wish their was a battlefield FH2 style cold war game but then with superb engine and then 200 players
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: :| Hi on 21-07-2010, 03:07:22

Now, obviously classified aircraft exist. The US Air Force just a few months ago revealed a new type of stealth reconnaissance drone that had been used in secret for 5 years.

But I'm skeptical of reports of secret spaceships and Mach 10 superplanes. It just doesn't make sense, technologically or economically.

What was the name of the drone?
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: [WDW]Megaraptor on 21-07-2010, 03:07:15

Now, obviously classified aircraft exist. The US Air Force just a few months ago revealed a new type of stealth reconnaissance drone that had been used in secret for 5 years.

But I'm skeptical of reports of secret spaceships and Mach 10 superplanes. It just doesn't make sense, technologically or economically.

What was the name of the drone?

RQ-170 Sentinel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_drone

USAF was forced to admit its existence after pictures taken in Afghanistan started appearing in the media. All they did was reveal its name, designation and the units operating it, we still don't know any specs, mission or capabilities.
Title: Re: Canada buys F-35s
Post by: :| Hi on 21-07-2010, 03:07:03
Oh that, yeah I know about it