Author Topic: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections  (Read 35198 times)

Offline Slayer

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #360 on: 24-04-2012, 21:04:56 »
The don't accuse me of stuff either, Slayer  :P
I'm not.
Really, all the guilt talk from your side.
Guilt talk? I was only saying something about our planet, if I thought it was all your fault, again: I'd say so.
I'm simply living my own life on this planet the way I like it, I'm 1 out of 7 billion and there's no way that if I go full environmental it will change even a single thing.
That's what I thought, it is just indifference, more than it is "protest" against anything. And nice to see that conversation stopper "I can't cange anything on my own, so why bother?"  :P


Offline Fuchs

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #361 on: 24-04-2012, 22:04:20 »
You did not accuse me of anything? You accused me of polluting this planet. And all that other crap about the future and making this planet useless. This planet will be just fine, Slayer. And if we ruin it then that is evolution and survival of the fittest. All hail the cockroach overlords.
I quote;
Quote
...you'd rather go and continue polluting the planet until it is useless and we all die?...

It's a cynical indifference generated by shove-it-in-your-face activists, Slayer. I used to care greatly for the environment but once I saw how other people who cared tried to change it I decided that free will of people is more important.

An example: fur. I think it's ridiculous that animals are being bred for the sole reason of making fur coats but does that give the activist with red paint any justification to throw it on some old lady's coat? No. Live and let live.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline sheikyerbouti

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #362 on: 25-04-2012, 06:04:56 »
 if they don't raise animals for fur, then they use pet dogs and cats, or they make synthetic fur using overly-polluting barrel's of oil.

@ Slayer,

 The netherland's is full development partner of the JSF project which carries certain liabilities but to date your country is only committed to a handful of test models (that does not make an airforce). At the moment, Italy, Australia, and the USA are the only truly committed partner's by having actual, committed production numbers.

 given the recent developments in defence co-operation (Benelux, Denmark, Norway), there is an opportunity to rationalize aircraft numbers as well as to determine the model's that will actually be flown.

IMO, I find the Dutch pragmatism in defence to be quite beneficial to your country from a broad perspective.
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Offline Slayer

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #363 on: 25-04-2012, 23:04:11 »
You did not accuse me of anything?
No, I didn't. I just said that the planet gets polluted. I don't know you, so how can I judge if you are polluting it? You read it in my rhetorical question, but that's not the same.

This planet will be just fine, Slayer. And if we ruin it then that is evolution and survival of the fittest.
Yes, and now you can go back to sleep.

It's a cynical indifference generated by shove-it-in-your-face activists, Slayer. I used to care greatly for the environment but once I saw how other people who cared tried to change it I decided that free will of people is more important.
Oh, yeah, so it is other people's fault that you don't care about the environment?  ::) I'm amazed at how easy you can be brought off your principles.

IMO, I find the Dutch pragmatism in defence to be quite beneficial to your country from a broad perspective.
I'm all for pragmatism, I just don't see why my country needs those aircraft. I believe it is only for show, and to be able to say "but we have JSF's, now we can help out fighting terrorists!" while that isn't our job. Even if my government buys only one, it will still be very expensive.

My government can buy them when everyone in my country has a reasonable wealth level, when the EU is stable economically and when thriid world countries have no debts anymore.

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #364 on: 26-04-2012, 00:04:23 »
One more thing about the JSF's: keeping the F16's will cost more in the long run. Safely flying planes from the 70's requires a lot of maintenance.

And you don't have to worry about my principles at all. If I where brought off them that easily I would've agreed with you but instead we've been discussing it for the last 10 posts we made in this thread.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline sheikyerbouti

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #365 on: 26-04-2012, 01:04:33 »
 a couple of points here,

 The Netherland's has NOT purchased the JSF. As a second tier partner, the Netherlands has invested in the development of the aircraft in order to secure advanced domestic production techniques that benefit the aerospace industry of NLD.

 Should the decision be made to not purchase the aircraft, then there will be cancellation costs but the actual cost is not fixed and has to date, been largely offset by the existing contracts which have been made with the Dutch aero-industry.


WRT F16 costs and maintenance, yes, older planes do cost more money BUT the question is raised as to whether or not an advanced 5th generation aircraft is required to maintain air sovereignty. The JSF is designed for bombing, close air support and first-strike capability, all of which are debatable needs for a country like the Netherland's that ostensibly does not participate in such tactical scenario's.

 It is commonplace for any military to seek out the most capable/ potent weapon's that they can employ but those bells and whistle's don't really sympathize with the civilian population when domestic needs are more pressing. In terms of European arms acquisition, there is a growing trend of supporting domestic infrastructure and production over multi-national projects which may be expensive but can generally provide a greater tactical return. 

It all boils down to either keeping jobs at home and spending much more money or co-operating on commonplace needs with traditional allies with the larger up-front costs that generally become more affordable as economies of scale are introduced.

 ex: Franco-british carrier program (would have saved more money in the long run and provided greater capacity but has now been trumped by the domestic demands for supporting indigenous capabilities and maintaining employment numbers at home)


 it's all about the benjamin's and the votes that they buy...

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Offline Fuchs

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #366 on: 26-04-2012, 10:04:19 »
We currently have 1 JSF and another one is being assembled at the moment, these are the Dutch test models. So we do have JSF's.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline sheikyerbouti

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #367 on: 26-04-2012, 10:04:19 »
 You miss my point, the Netherland's has test models that are part of the development program. No further final production aircraft have been ordered, nor has any price been determined.

 The test models are not part of any JSF purchase, they are provided essentially as teaser's. The same principle is in place with the British, they have officially cancelled the version of the JSF-B (STOVL) but still have two test models that they have bought already.

 The JSF is funny business but most nations are only hanging in there to help prop up the only current 5G aircraft that is allowed for Foreign Military sales.
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Offline Gezoes

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #368 on: 26-04-2012, 17:04:29 »
Boss, boss, the plane, and we're probably selling our Leopards to Indonesia.

Meanwhile... did the opposition, except PvdA and SP, just agree to the cuts VVD / CDA / PVV were planning in the first place!? Before PVV blew that up.

What the...

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Offline Fuchs

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #369 on: 26-04-2012, 18:04:05 »
Of course they did, get real Gezoes, politicians are whores  :P Those parties do everything to improve their chances on being in the cabinet this fall.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline Slayer

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #370 on: 26-04-2012, 19:04:05 »
One more thing about the JSF's: keeping the F16's will cost more in the long run. Safely flying planes from the 70's requires a lot of maintenance.
Yes, but my point is not: let's keep the F16s flying, my point is: let's quit flying warplanes altogether.

We are good at navy stuff, so let's focus on that if we really, really really want to participate in anything military across the globe.

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #371 on: 26-04-2012, 20:04:30 »
Can we keep the helicopters? Please?
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To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline Gezoes

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #372 on: 26-04-2012, 20:04:43 »
Of course they did, get real Gezoes, politicians are whores  :P Those parties do everything to improve their chances on being in the cabinet this fall.

My thoughts exactly. This is a kabinet formation. Some serious backstabbing going on. Quick, let's sign the package that's already done, or the country is gone tomorrow! It's a load of manure, sure, but we can easily wait two weeks. I doubt Brussels would like the biggest annual contributor cutting funds. How's that for a cut. Groen Links' true colors are quite a surprise. I hope it costs them dearly.

For once, the PvdA stands where I want it to. I like Samson, never mind what everyone says. We like to parrot in this country, so we can laugh at the ones that think different. It's as Dutch like clogs and cheese. I stand with the PvdA and SP. Cuts have to made, but not like this.

The new cabinet, apparently, I didn't know we had elections last night, is unwise to ignore a potential 2x25 seats (or even more) left block and a willing Wilders on the sidelines.

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Offline Slayer

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #373 on: 26-04-2012, 20:04:38 »
Cuts have to made, but not like this.
I read a short summary, but the changelog doesn't sound so bad. Most cuts in education, health and aid are stopped.

For once, the PvdA stands where I want it to. I like Samson, never mind what everyone says.
In the same news flash I read that Samsom wants to change his stance in the upcoming debate, so I think he will turn towards agreeing with this new plan too.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Dutch (and Belgian) parliamentary elections
« Reply #374 on: 26-04-2012, 20:04:04 »
My father was in the airforce, and he also guaranteed, that the best cost effective tool was to replace F16's.

It would be better to get rid of our(Belgian) 120 F16's and aquire something like 30-40 new aircraft, like the Saab Gripen, or eurofighter.
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