Author Topic: Questions Thread  (Read 86021 times)

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #960 on: 30-12-2016, 20:12:03 »
Well you asked a very basic question, you got a very basic answer.

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #961 on: 19-01-2017, 18:01:14 »
What was the role of light bombers, like the A26 or the Bristol Blenheim? Did they fulfill their intended role, or were they increasingly devoted to things like night fighting?

If I can ask a related question, what about heavy fighters? Did they have any success in their intended position or were they all used for other things too?

 Both of these aircraft types seem to have been built for niches that failed to actually materialize during the war.


Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #962 on: 19-01-2017, 19:01:58 »
So light bombers were mostly due to the expense of bombers- it was a cheap, economical way to have a bomber, and to have one capable of operating from less-than-adequate airfields.  They WERE used quite a bit, but soon got their roles eclipsed by medium bombers like the Ju88, B-25, B-26, and such, which were capable of bigger bomb loads, more armour, more attack capability, and could operate from similar runways with more powerful engines and such.  Basically, the light bomber was a stepping stone to the great medium bombers of the war.

As for heavy fighters, well, there is a LOT of myth about those.  To summarize as best I can, most of the mythos comes around from the Me110 and its performance in the Battle of Britain.  The myth goes that Me110s were a total failure, couldn't dogfight, and soon had to be escorted themselves by Me109s!  Like any myth, there is a nugget of truth in it- the Me110 could not dogfight really.  It could turn with Hurricanes easily, but its big problem was that, due to the wing span, it couldn't roll quickly, so a good Hurricane or Spitfire pilot would bank one way, get the Me110 following, then quickly bank the other way, something the Me110 pilot couldn't really do, thus getting him off the tail of the Spit/Hurri.

The big issue is that a lot of people apply that to heavy fighters and go 'see so they suck.'  The problem is, these people seem to assume that there is only one method of aerial combat- that of the dogfight.  What they're not looking at is that heavy fighters were NEVER, I repeat, NEVER supposed to be used that way.  The training doctrine for all heavy fighter units was to be boom and zoom fighters- and this was where they excelled.  Due to their wing size and two engines, the heavies had much better climb rates than single engine planes, and that plus their weight meant they also have very fast dives.  The optimum way to use a heavy fighter was to fly high (and thanks to those wings/engines, they had higher ceiling levels than single engine fighters), and basically conduct fighter sweeps, booming and zooming any flights of planes beneath.  In the main idea of the Me110, it was to fly high, dive on an enemy formation, use the concentrated fire in the nose to break up that formation (possibly taking some of it down), then zoom away and climb back up to escape.  After that was done, a following unit of Me109s would come into the now broken, scattered enemy formation and pick it apart, while the Me110s went back to overwatch, diving on escaping enemy planes/breaking up anyone who came to rescue.  This was the doctrine for the P38 as well, and somehow we don't see people claiming the P38 was an 'obsolete, useless, niche fighter'.  Instead it's considered one of the best day-fighters of the war- and the big reason is that the US stuck to using those tactics for the majority of the war.

The Germans though, had a quandary during the battle of britain.  The Me109s simply could not keep up with the bombers- they had about an hour's flight time, even with drop tanks, over Britian, and couldn't actually escort the bombers.  The Me110 meanwhile could.  Now, this might have worked, had the Me110s been flying high over the bombers.  HOWEVER, German escort doctrine had the idea that escorts were supposed to fly at the same level as the bombers, maintaining the same speed (the idea being it meant faster reaction time to an enemy attack on the bombers).  This, however, meant the Me110s were basically sitting ducks.  They couldn't get up to speed, they couldn't dive, they were left basically unable to use their doctrines.  The wings that were assigned to escort duty suffered tremendously as a result, while the wings that stayed in heavy fighter sweep mode did spectacularly well, leading to weird cases where one day, there might have been 10 or 20Me110s shot down, and then in the next day, another Me110 wing would take out 10, 20 RAF fighters without loss.  The fun information is that, during the BOB, the Me110s actually scored the SAME kill to death ratio as the Spitfire, and outperformed the Me109, despite these losses.  The big reason the Me110 disappears from the skies over England towards the end of the BOB though is production- the Germans only entered the campaign with less than 300 Me110s, lost a bit over 200, and simply were unable to keep up with the losses.  The Me109 suffered just as badly, but having started with greater numbers and production, was able to keep in the skies.  The Me110 had never been expected to take much in the way of losses due to the doctrine of not sticking around to actually do combat, and so when it was forced into that role, there was not the production or numbers to keep it up.  It was supposed to be the tip of the sword, and that's all.

In the end, the myth persists because yes, heavy fighters were sitting ducks when tied to escort duty.  As the USA experimented with escorts, the P38 was pressed into service, and basically did as well as the Me110.  It was pulled out, later replaced with the P51, and went back to doing awesome work as a heavy fighter over the ETO and PTO until war's end.  But all that does is validate the heavy fighter in its role- it was a boom and zoom sweeper, NOT a dogfighter.  It was never meant to stay in contact with enemy fighters, and failed when pressed into that task due to the needs of the generals.

Hope that's an ok summary, lemme know if you have any more questions.  I can try and find the actual KDR's of the 109, 110, and Spit/Hurri in the meantime.


Ah, here it is:

Spitfire 550 victories to 329 losses – a ratio of 1,7:1
Hurricane 750 victories to 603 losses – a ratio of 1,2:1
Bf 109 780 victories to 534 losses – a ratio of 1,5:1
Bf 110 340 victories to 196 losses – a ratio of 1,7:1
« Last Edit: 19-01-2017, 19:01:20 by VonMudra »

Offline Wilhelm

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #963 on: 19-01-2017, 19:01:24 »
Interesting read, Mudra.

But why would they have continued using the Me110 in the wrong way? You would think if they had a lot of losses on one mission, then an almost opposite outcome on another that they would figure out the original doctrine was superior to the forced escort role.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #964 on: 19-01-2017, 20:01:21 »
The best way to see how this work is actually to play war thunder. If you use a heavy fighter, like a heavy fighter, you're results might be quite amazing. Go for boom and zoom. Did your pass fail? Do not turn. Max throttle and just get out of there.

I had great succeses with the ME110, beaufighter and P38 in War thunder. Many people complain about these planes but the reality is they pilot them like single engined fighters.
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Offline FHMax3

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #965 on: 19-01-2017, 20:01:18 »
heavy fighter, like a heavy fighter
Good explaining  ;D
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #966 on: 19-01-2017, 21:01:47 »
Interesting read, Mudra.

But why would they have continued using the Me110 in the wrong way? You would think if they had a lot of losses on one mission, then an almost opposite outcome on another that they would figure out the original doctrine was superior to the forced escort role.

Quite simply because they had no other option.  The Me109, even with drop tanks, could not make it far enough to escort the bombers.  They basically had to accept heavy Me110 losses as a trade for not leaving the bombers undefended, which would have been catastrophic.  So the Me110s that were assigned to escort basically drew the short straw.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #967 on: 20-01-2017, 15:01:51 »
To cut cost and keep producing more Bf-110, why not ditch that useless tail gun anyway? I think it is one of the reasons why the heavy fighter is unnecessarily heavy. Sure, they did pack more guns, but do they need that extra crews?

With the way they use it in BoB, of course they really need that tail gun, as they were more or less, one of the sitting ducks along with the bomber formation.

Anyway, Richard "Dick" Ira Bong, the highest scoring US Ace flies the "heavy fighter" P-38. He mostly downed far more agile and fast-turning but shabby roll-rate Japanese fighters. The P-38J has aileron booster, which makes its roll rate quite competitive. So to excuse the myth, unlike the Bf-110, P-38J can be ambushed, but still fight back effectively.
« Last Edit: 20-01-2017, 15:01:47 by Zoologic »

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #968 on: 20-01-2017, 16:01:50 »
The idea for the tail gunner came from the Bristol F2B fighter in WW1- of course it didn't work as well as it did in WW1, due to fighter armour/armament.  That said, BF110 pilots actually liked the gunner, as it gave them an observer in the cockpit, and someone who could, potentially, spray lead at anything that might try to chase them after a boom and zoom (the window would be short, so the point would be just to ward of anyone who might try and follow).

During the night fighter role, they actually wedged a 3rd crewman in to deal with the radar equipment, and kept the tail gunner, as he was useful in spraying lead at bombers after a pass (or up at them in a Schrage Musik attack), and again, more eyes was always better.

And actually, there was a version of the Bf110 that was as agile as the Me109- the BF110F.  Apparently, according to the pilots, it was the best of the Bf110 versions and was fully acrobatic due to much, much more powerful engines, and some redesign of armour and such.  However it didn't come out until 1942, so too late to reverse the myth, and did most of its service over the Russian Front, as well as being a bomber destroyer/first purpose designed night fighter.  What with the night war heating up dramatically at this point, plus the constant allied bomber streams in day time, the 110 got pressed into those roles, both of which it excelled at.  However by the time P51s showed up, it again became cannon fodder, as it couldn't both penetrate bomber streams (heavily laden with rockets and extra guns), and not be pounced with ease by allied fighters.  In the night war though, it continued to excel to the end of the war and produced the top night aces of the war, alongside Ju88 and Do217 conversions.

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #969 on: 21-01-2017, 15:01:47 »
That's fantastic VM, thank you very much.

Offline FHMax3

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #970 on: 23-01-2017, 12:01:20 »
The idea for the tail gunner came from the Bristol F2B fighter in WW1- of course it didn't work as well as it did in WW1, due to fighter armour/armament.  That said, BF110 pilots actually liked the gunner, as it gave them an observer in the cockpit, and someone who could, potentially, spray lead at anything that might try to chase them after a boom and zoom (the window would be short, so the point would be just to ward of anyone who might try and follow).

During the night fighter role, they actually wedged a 3rd crewman in to deal with the radar equipment, and kept the tail gunner, as he was useful in spraying lead at bombers after a pass (or up at them in a Schrage Musik attack), and again, more eyes was always better.

And actually, there was a version of the Bf110 that was as agile as the Me109- the BF110F.  Apparently, according to the pilots, it was the best of the Bf110 versions and was fully acrobatic due to much, much more powerful engines, and some redesign of armour and such.  However it didn't come out until 1942, so too late to reverse the myth, and did most of its service over the Russian Front, as well as being a bomber destroyer/first purpose designed night fighter.  What with the night war heating up dramatically at this point, plus the constant allied bomber streams in day time, the 110 got pressed into those roles, both of which it excelled at.  However by the time P51s showed up, it again became cannon fodder, as it couldn't both penetrate bomber streams (heavily laden with rockets and extra guns), and not be pounced with ease by allied fighters.  In the night war though, it continued to excel to the end of the war and produced the top night aces of the war, alongside Ju88 and Do217 conversions.
Was the Do-17Z used as a night fighter late war?
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #971 on: 23-01-2017, 17:01:13 »
There were test-bed attempts but it was never actually used due to poor performance, instead serving more as testing of early on-board radars that would later go into the real night-fighters.  The Do215 and 217 had the actual night fighter types, though it took awhile to actually get them performing well, culminating in the rather good Do217N

Offline Wilhelm

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #972 on: 23-01-2017, 18:01:19 »
Why were such planes useful as night fighters?  Was it because they provided enough capacity to fit the equipment needed for the role while still being relatively agile, or was there other characteristics of the airframes themselves that facilitated successful night operations?

Did planes that were more vulnerable during day operations (BF 110 when used outside of its intended role, for example) excel at night operations simply because of the extra protection offered by the night, which offset their poor maneuverability/speed/etc?

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #973 on: 23-01-2017, 21:01:53 »
In addition to boosted ailerons, P-38 also had more raw engine power (thrust/weight ratio) and better aerodynamics than 110 (once the automatically activating flap was installed under the rudder so that rudder wouldn't lose lift in a high-speed dive due to compressibility) so was the better fighter to begin with. The myth about P-38 being unable to fight if surprised is about half true: in the early versions the ergonomy had taken a backseat, so to transform the Lightning from travel to combat you had to turn and press about 20 switches and levers that were conveniently placed all around the cockpit. Of course, this was the byproduct of it having been designed to be an interceptor defending US eastern seaboard against ze Amerika Bombers, and would obviously take off in "combat mode" or at least the pilot would use the time to climb to altitude to make it so - no surprises there so plenty of time to pull those knobs. In later versions the controls were rearranged and some automated (and for example, the gunsight changed so that the lightbulb would not burn out after a few minutes), which made it easier to respond to surprises. Then again, these problems were not unique to P-38, devices like the Kommandogerät (automatically adjusted ignition, boost, mixture, propeller pitch, etc. based on throttle settings, RPM, engine knocking, etc.) were late-war inventions, so a pilot who was suprised was usually in big trouble anyway.

Also, in the Pacific theatre, basically every American fighter except Airacobra had to use zoom'n'boom, yo-yo, etc. tactics against the Zero (and other Japanese acrobatic planes). Airacobra suffered from its single-stage supercharger which limited it to low-altitude fights (critical altitude 3,5km), but down low it was faster and actually had better roll rate than Zero, which is why the Soviets loved it - they didn't need to fly high to gain long range, so could utilize it to the full. I can dig that the Americans needed to fly high to gain the necessary range to anywhere in the Pacific so it was in a wrong place there, but why the RAF never considered to use it against the low-altitude 190 Jabo attacks is a mystery (instead of abandoning the Airacobra because it was not suited for high-altitude fighter sweeps, what a surprise), considering that the chose solution ie. Typhoon was faster than the 190 but seriously outmanoeuvred if it caught its prey.

---

Re why use two-seater twin-engined heavy fighters and light bombeers as night fighters, early radar sets were bulky and heavy so required a larger airplane to carry them. Yes, development was fast and later in the war radar would fit in a pod carried on a wing pylon on a single-engine plane (if the radar used a dish antenna: the "laundry rack" antennae favoured by the Germans were difficult to relocate to wings), but the early radar scopes were horribly unclear, so they basically required a separate radar operator who could dedicate all his time trying to make sense out of all the clutter and interference on the primitive screen.

Even with modern HUD's, large multi-coloured touchscreens, and whatnot, research still shows that a pilot's situational awareness is better if there is a guy in back keeping an eye on the radar, FLIR, etc. while the pilot concentrates on flying and hitting the enemy - this is even more pronounced when in air-to-ground role.

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Questions Thread
« Reply #974 on: 24-01-2017, 01:01:37 »
Basically what Kelmola said.  Early experiments with single engine fighters at night fighters were 'mostly' failures, thanks to lack of radar, but also the inability to carry heavy weaponry (night air combat had exceedingly short windows of opportunity, so you had to make a kill in the first pass basically).  Basically the only successful single engine night fighter was the Boston Paul Defiant during the Battle of Britain, as it would do what the Germans would later perfect- use upward firing guns to attack from below.

But, in the end, twin engine planes had enough speed, maneuverability wasn't an issue, and could carry both the radar, the radar operator, and the heavy armament that were all needed for a successful night-fighter role.  Thus, heavy fighters, and light/medium bombers like the Ju88 and Do217, were perfect choices.