if i get annoying by white folks, then i hate them.

That is totally racist though.

Exactly. I don't understand people who have not even tested it and try to judge it. It is no fantasy crap, it is the result of some hard work and alot of discussions and research. People simply have no idea how far 500m are ingame. You can snipe enemy tanks over half the map.

I don't agree with this statement to be honest.

Let's go through the 5 points of the tank damage system I noted earlier and see how the values for each are determined.

1. Base damage and minimum damage

Base damage = 50 + Calibre in mm
Minimum damage = Calibre in cm * 25

Note that the unmodified damage a projectile does depends solely on the calibre of the projectile. This means that the unmodified damage of the Sherman's 75mmL40 and the Panther's 75mmL70 are identical.

2. Distance modifier

The distance modifier for all AP projectiles in the latest beta is currently a linear decrease from base damage to minimum damage over 600 metres. Note that this means that the Panther's 75mmL70 loses damage just as quickly as the Sherman's 75mmL40! If we compare the actual penetration tables for the 75mmL70 and the 75mmL40 we see that at 500 metres the 75mmL70 penetrates 120mm and at 2000m 90mm and that the 75mmL40 penetrates 70mm at 455 metres and 50mm at 1820m. Thus the 75mmL70 retains 75% of its damage at that distance and the 75mmL40  under 70% (it is hard to compare, as the distances aren't directly comparable). If we look at the 75mmL43 for example, we see only a 63% damage retention. Thus, it makes little sense to have the same distance modifier for all projectiles, yet this is exactly the case.

3. Material modifier

Each projectile is assigned a material based on the penetration it has at 500 metres at 30 degrees (basic reported value in literature). We saw in the previous point that the 75mmL70 penetrates 120mm, so it gets the material "120mm_penetration".

Do note that the actual penetration is 124mm, but since we only have materials at 10mm intervals, we have to use 120mm. Making materials for every 5mm interval will make the damage impossible to manage (if it isn't already!).

To calculate the material damage modifier we use the following algorithm.

The 120mm penetrating projectile will have a damage modifier of 3.75 against 120mm thick armour. For every 10mm less armour you have, your damage modifier will increase by 1.5. For anything above the penetrating values, the damage modifier will be 0 (no penetration).

So, against the Sherman's 80mm front armour you will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 4 = 9.75.
The Sherman has 70mm penetration, so it will not penetrate 80mm.

Against the Sherman's 40mm side armour the 75mmL70 will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 8 = 12.75.
Against 40mm the Sherman's 75mmL40 will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 3 = 8.25.

This has been the major change from 2.4 to 2.45. Before this, the relation was exponential.

4. Anglemod

I am not 100% sure how the anglemod works and I can't check, because its discussion was mostly held in a section of the old internal forum that was not fully copied.

At any rate, the anglemod regulates the damage done, so it will only be applied on penetrating hits. Then, the angle is checked, in increments I believe, and another damage modifier is executed. Due to its quantified nature, it does not follow the sine curve exactly, but rather does 100% damage up to 20 degrees and 0% damage over 80 degrees or something along those lines.

This is actually, in my opinion, the factor in the damage calculation that is least arbitrary and most closely follows the physical world.

5. Hitpoints

This is probably the most arbitrary values in the damage calculation.

The general formula is:

(Side armour (in mm) + Rear armour (in mm)) / 2 * 25

So for the Tiger that would mean: (80 + 80) / 2 * 25 = 2000
For the Sherman: (40 + 40) / 2 * 25 = 1000

These values are however often modified. For example, the Tiger actually only has 1500 hitpoints, because otherwise it would be far too powerful.




Of these 5 points, the internal beta differs from the 2.45 public release only in 2 things:
1. The range modifier has been changed to have minimum damage at 600 instead of 300.
2. Some few vehicles have had their hitpoints changed based on individual feedback.

Of course, there are other changes, such as the awesome new collision meshes, which greatly reduce the chances of greatly unexpected results, such as accidentally hitting at an odd angle because of a bad collision mesh or getting hits that do no damage.



But do not be fooled by the range modifier. This is actually a pretty large change.

Minimum damage is generally about 40% of base damage. In 2.45 at 300m you will do 40% of base damage. Now you will do 70% of base damage, so that is nearly twice as much. However, the further you get from 300m, the smaller the difference between 2.45 and the current beta will be. So at point blank range and at 600 you will do the same amounts of damage in both 2.45 and the beta.

And considering the panther gun vs sherman side is a very extreme case (IRL 124mm@500m versus 38-45mm sherman side), I do think the new settings are still conservative, maybe the minimum damage should be enhanced.

Oh dear, the Sherman side armour is 40mm indeed, not 60mm. I don't have the internal developer version installed, so I can only look at the text files in the online repository. And those text files only list the materials used, not where they are used. I just assumed 60mm would be the side without checking.

So 40mm is mat 126 and the damagemod for 330 126 is 15.75. The correct values for the Sherman side armour are:

Damage at 0m: 1968 hp to side.
Damage at 300m: 1370 hp to side.
Damage at 600m: 772 hp to side.

So since distance modifier is linear, you lose 2.0 hp of damage per metre, so beyond 484m you will need 2 shots.

Do mysteries like that often happen Lightning?

No, not really. Most of the problems are usually pretty obvious.

Funny story about Kuuterselka.

During testing we got some very strange FPS drops that only happened when there were more than 20 people on the server. We figured (logically) that it might be a problem with the new player models, so we had everyone meet up in the centre of the map, but oddly, there was now no lag at all.

As we're discussing what the problem might be, the beta testers start screwing around and suddenly we notice the lag creeping in again.

Getting an idea, I asked everyone to suicide and come back with either a PPsH-41 or a KP/-31 Suomi. So everyone meets up again and I say "Ok, at the count of 3 shoot your entire magazine up into the air. 3... 2... 1...".

My FPS dropped from 60 to 0.5...

Turns out the little empty bullet shell models we far too complicated and 1200 of the little buggers interacting with the environment at the same time was more than any PC could handle.

What's that in FH-maths? Lets say compared to pre 2.45 damage drop?

distToMinDamage has been 300m since 2.4 (and was 400m before that).

The primary 2.4 - 2.45 difference is in the linearisation of damage modifiers. In 2.4 they followed an exponential curve, in 2.45 it's more linear.

For example, the damage modifier against an 80mm plate (Sherman front hull) (2.4 / 2.45)
75mmL40-APCBC: 1.5 / 3.75
75mmL43-AP: 4.5 / 5.25
75mmL48-AP: 7.75 / 6.75
88mmL56-AP: 11.31 / 8.25
75mmL70-AP: 15.26 / 9.75
90mmL50-AP: 19.69 / 11.25
17pdr-AP: 24.7 / 12.75
...
88mmL71-AP: 52.29 / 18.75

So, in 2.4, guns got exponentially more powerful against a certain armour thickness. In 2.45 it is linear. As you can see, in 2.4 the Tiger II did 4.6 times as much damage as the Tiger I. In 2.45 only 1.5 times as much. This does mean that compared to 2.4 the Tiger II does 2.8 times less damage in 2.45.


These values are unchanged from their 2.45 values in the latest beta.





Vehicle damage is very complicated in Forgotten Hope 2. To calculate how much relative damage your shot does you need to know:
1. Base damage of your gun (each projectile has its own base and minimum damage)
2. Distance modifier (damage decreases over distance, this is linear from base to min damage, min damage is generally 40% of base damage)
3. Material of your projectile and of your target (each projectile interacts differently with each material, this table contains the damage modifiers)
4. Anglemod (this checks the angle of impact and reduces the damage accordingly, from full damage at 90 degrees, to no damage at 0 degrees)
5. Hitpoints (each vehicle has its own unique amount of hitpoints, so hitting the 80mm side of a Tiger II does the same absolute amount of damage as hitting the 80mm front of a Sherman, but because the Tiger II has 2000 hitpoint and the Sherman 1000, the relative damage is twice as low)


To get something that feels right, you need to tweak these all these factors against eachother. With near 100 tanks (just tanks, not other vehicles), roughly 20 materials for armour (only counting regular unspaced, unskirted armour) and 74 materials, base damage and minimum damage for projectiles (not counting HE projectiles), this is ridiculously complex.

This reminds me a little of the annually recurring tradition of accusing atheists of trying to destroy Christmas. A very small minority raises some concerns, eliciting a completely disproportionate reaction of seemingly every single person who enjoys Christmas.

The same is happening now. I can't open the newspaper or watch television without people complaining and complaining and complaining. It even goes so far that I am bothered by it on the bus, having to listen to the conversation of the person next to me, complaining that "those damn immigrants should be grateful we let them into our country and shut the hell up". It's a pointless discussion that only polarises groups that aren't getting along very well today as it is.

And for fuck's sake it's still 6 fucking weeks until December 5th...