Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => General Discussion => Topic started by: CologneSky on 12-03-2012, 12:03:27
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So when is 2.45 finally coming out??
No, was just kidding! Seriously, I have a question regarding the upcoming release.
Will there be reworking/rebalancing of existing maps?
I think this has been confirmed for Op. Cobra. But what about other maps?
Currently some maps are really unbalanced and are therefore not played allot/at all. Tunis comes to my mind (which is quite impossible for Axis), Luttich (quite impossible for Allies) and others such as Goodwood (at least difficult for Allies), Giarbub (difficult for Axis).
So, in general, have you thought about tweaking existing maps? And if so, which ones? what is status?
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If you look in the feedback section, Natty has already written in some of the threads that the maps have been rebalanced. In some cases "rebalanced" is the wrong word though. I would say "overhauled" or even "redesigned" in Cobra's case, as you can see fromt he screenshots that were posted a while back.
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Could we get a list of maps which have been overhauled? Maybe saying were just the tickets have been changed and which map is been changed more than that?
P.S.: Probably I am not getting an answeer but I couldnt stop my self :D
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Couldn't tell you (without getting flogged internally). Maybe there will be a news update about it or Natty might make a devblog if there is enough interest. Generally speaking: a lot has changed. See, 2.4 was all about general gameplay changes, 2.45 is all about map changes ;)
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See, 2.4 was all about general gameplay changes, 2.45 is all about map changes ;)
Honestly I am far more excited about the map changes after those two posts of you. And was already incredibly excited about the new maps and vehicles!
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Couldn't tell you (without getting flogged internally). Maybe there will be a news update about it or Natty might make a devblog if there is enough interest. Generally speaking: a lot has changed. See, 2.4 was all about general gameplay changes, 2.45 is all about map changes ;)
go Natty, go!!
:)
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Well Natty has outlined the changes in the Push system (for total domination maps like Tobruk).
Other than that many maps have had overhauls and I won't dare to say that they are better balanced now, but play more focussed. There is pretty little a mapper can do against stacked teams with people who know a map like the backside of their hands.
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Well Natty has outlined the changes in the Push system (for total domination maps like Tobruk).
Other than that many maps have had overhauls and I won't dare to say that they are better balanced now, but play more focussed. There is pretty little a mapper can do against stacked teams with people who know a map like the backside of their hands.
Well, the mapper could for example change equipment/assets or ticket settings.
For Luttich for instance the ticket settings would eiter need to be changed, the bleed settings (e.g. allies would only bleed if they lose all/all but one of the flags) or the equipment (not sure maybe less tanks for germans, to be honest not sure if that would work).
In Tunis, as another example, I think ticket & ticket bleed should be changed. Dont know if allot can be done via equipment..
So IMHO there are things mappers can do, or I am misunderstanding sth. here?
Anyways, a "changelog" of things/aspects changed on the maps would be more than great! So, go Natty, go!! :-)
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See, you yourself are sporting the nice sentence bit "not sure" quite often.
All changes that have been made can have a positive effect on balance, but then again it can also be easily negated by great teamplay. This is the hardest thing to test prior to a release and I think I know at least one mapper who lost his sanity trying to balance a map while having stacked tester teams playing the map one version as allies and the other version as axis ;D ... but that's the nature of the game and I'm glad it's there, as it keeps the gameplay fresh and diverse. I for one enjoy changing to the 'harder' side of a map just for the challenge. Sure my blood boils when good players stay on the easy side just for their K/D and W/L score, but hell that's humans for you. ^^
But this still means that suggestions and feedback are always welcome, so continue nagging! :)
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See, you yourself are sporting the nice sentence bit "not sure" quite often.
All changes that have been made can have a positive effect on balance, but then again it can also be easily negated by great teamplay. This is the hardest thing to test prior to a release and I think I know at least one mapper who lost his sanity trying to balance a map while having stacked tester teams playing the map one version as allies and the other version as axis
I fully understand how difficult it is to test prior to release and have total understanding when maps turn out to be "unbalanced" after initial release and during public play. You probably can't even reproduce typical public play during the beta testing? (as you have more experienced players in beta testing only?)
However in the "2nd test phase" after the release and during public play two things occur.
1) players come back with feedback
2) you can see the stats of the maps played (I would love to see these as well if possible ;-) )
Combined you should be able to derive that certain maps do not play as well and balanced as others. Not going into details (i guess thats what the feedback forums are for) maps such as Tunis & Luttich are really unbalanced currently and should probably be given a rebalancing try. If this does not work out in the next release, then so be it..
I for one enjoy changing to the 'harder' side of a map just for the challenge. Sure my blood boils when good players stay on the easy side just for their K/D and W/L score, but hell that's humans for you.
Yeah, I know what you mean. But I beg to differ. I also like the "harder" side on maps such as St. Lo (where storming the hill is really hard), Ramelle (stopping the tiger) etc..
In these cases one has a real challenge and gets some sense of satisfaction when overcoming the obstacles.
However on maps such as Luttich (as Allies) this IMHO turns out to be highly frustrating as the inbalance is just to grave.
Just my 2 cents of nagging.. :-)
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Lüttich?Really? I always thougth of this one as pretty balanced. I've seen both sides win quite alot.
What needs rebalancing are some of the new Bulge Maps. Even i have to admit that it is too easy to win as germans on Meuse River, Bastogne and Eppeldorf.
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Lüttich?Really? I always thougth of this one as pretty balanced. I've seen both sides win quite alot.
What needs rebalancing are some of the new Bulge Maps. Even i have to admit that it is too easy to win as germans on Meuse River, Bastogne and Eppeldorf.
honestly? well, thatswhy it would be really great to see overall map stats!
maybe my perception is really off.
but i havent seen allies win it one in the last ten times.
or are you reffering to pre-2.4. as far as i remember it was "rebalanced" for 2.4
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Feelings vary as you see. ;D
Iirc the devs have had access to the server stats from the official Awards, but... you know what I mean.
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But...?
but the not to the Win/Lose statistic of 762 servers? I am sure the 762 would give their stats to teh devs, really really sure.
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Actually I was about to say stats don't always show the true picture either, you'd have to evaluate them with the separate players and where they play. We have a lot of 'badass' players who own the entire server and thus can pull a map any way.
I fully understand how difficult it is to test prior to release and have total understanding when maps turn out to be "unbalanced" after initial release and during public play. You probably can't even reproduce typical public play during the beta testing? (as you have more experienced players in beta testing only?)
Actually this isn't any different to 'public' play. The skills all vary and a map can play totally different with a dedicated squad. Anyhow the only solution would be mirror-balanced maps and even then the players would define the balance.
I guess Natty could write an essay about this problem with his knowledge. It is really not easy to circumvent.
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Actually this isn't any different to 'public' play. The skills all vary and a map can play totally different with a dedicated squad. Anyhow the only solution would be mirror-balanced maps and even then the players would define the balance.
Not sure about this one. Some maps are highly dependent on a single role/vehicle. As an example Ramelle and the Tiger on German side. On public play, if a total newbee takes the tiger and decides to "camp" outside of city entrance the entire round, the game is over for Germans. With beta testers - Im quite sure - this wont happen. This might be an extreme example but I guess you understand where Im heading..
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Lüttich?Really? I always thougth of this one as pretty balanced. I've seen both sides win quite alot.
What needs rebalancing are some of the new Bulge Maps. Even i have to admit that it is too easy to win as germans on Meuse River, Bastogne and Eppeldorf.
Just checked your stats. You played Luttich 5 times & won it 3 times. All 3 times as Germans...
Interesting perception you have my friend..
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Seems balanced to me. 3 -2 is the most balanced result you can get with best of five.
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Just checked your stats. You played Luttich 5 times & won it 3 times. All 3 times as Germans...
Interesting perception you have my friend..
Believe me that i had my fair share of this map before the introduction of the ranking system ;) The only thing that should have changed after 2.4 is imo the angle mod, but i doubt that it had statistically significant impact on the results. Speaking of, 3 of 5 games is nothing you could base a solid evaluation on.
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I played Lüttich 112 times and my Team won it 84 times. And i play most of the time german.
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Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.
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Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.
Fanially somone thinks the same as me. Its good to hear that the Devs dont base their decitions on the Win/Losse ratio, but on things like one team getting raped all the time.
In my opinion getting rapedby arty/tanks/planes/fieldarty is most annoying thing (may next to attackign uncap) so maybe the Devs would consider to remove "raping elements". A first step would be to get rid of field arty completly (accept for maps liek Fall of Tobruk or Point du Hoc)
For example I am pretty sure that i didnt win Tunis very often. As we all know the bleed is unbalanced but the map is still fun as hell so i dont care too much. I think it is pretty much the same for the Allies on Eppeldorf you can have alwasy fun eventhough your loosing. (Probably not as a Allied tanker, but that will be fixed)
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Quite frankly I am not under the impression that hte devs care much about "balance" in the sense that you are thinking. If one team always gets raped before taking a single flag, like on old Anctoville, then that's a balance issue they want to fix, if the Germans win Lüttich 75 out of a 100 times but the map is fun regardless, they couldn't care less.
Fanially somone thinks the same as me. Its good to hear that the Devs dont base their decitions on the Win/Losse ratio, but on things like one team getting raped all the time.
In my opinion getting rapedby arty/tanks/planes/fieldarty is most annoying thing (may next to attackign uncap) so maybe the Devs would consider to remove "raping elements". A first step would be to get rid of field arty completly (accept for maps liek Fall of Tobruk or Point du Hoc)
For example I am pretty sure that i didnt win Tunis very often. As we all know the bleed is unbalanced but the map is still fun as hell so i dont care too much. I think it is pretty much the same for the Allies on Eppeldorf you can have alwasy fun eventhough your loosing. (Probably not as a Allied tanker, but that will be fixed)
Fine, if you think this is fun, then good for you, I do not!
I play maps to WIN them, I dont care about my stats I just want to win the round.
In my understanding this is the way the game should be played. If people were not focused on winning the round they would only spawn-camp and we all know how much fan this is.
So IMHO every single map should be winnable by each side. This does NOT mean it has to be 50:50 in terms of rounds played but it MUST NOT be 90:10 or worse either..
attached of another round of Luttich just know on HSLAN.. super fun indeed. I quit.
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Cologne, I really can't understand why you think luttich is so badly balanced. You pic doesn't show anything, we see axis having 3 flags and not too big ticket lead?
I still think that luttichs is one of most balanced maps on FH2.
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Cologne, I really can't understand why you think luttich is so badly balanced. You pic doesn't show anything, we see axis having 3 flags and not too big ticket lead?
I still think that luttichs is one of most balanced maps on FH2.
wow!! just wow! I really really would love to see the stats. I really cannot understand how an experienced player (who also plays on HSLAN) can say such a thing. really beyond my imagination.
Just had a chat during the game and Metal Marthy confirmed he has NEVER seen Allies win it!
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I think theres more a problem with the players and tactics on the allied side than any inherent balance issue. Something tells me players that gravitate toward auto weapons and easy-to-grab armor are the deciding factor.
I mean, the map is almost a perfect mirror.
The allies have advantages in weapons and *number* of tanks.
The only disadvantage I can see is that the church is closer to axis and is easy to defended, while the farm closer to allies is easily taken...
I have never played this round and not had fun. I dont care about stats, and I try to win, but I dont require a win to have fun.
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I mean, the map is almost a perfect mirror.
The allies have advantages in weapons and *number* of tanks.
The only disadvantage I can see is that the church is closer to axis and is easy to defended, while the farm closer to allies is easily taken...
And this is the perfect example why it is hard to balance the map. Even though everything seems to be balanced, 148 German wins out of 183 Rounds speak for themself.
While there are many other aspects that can bring us to balance a map the win/loose ratio is a important factor.
But it is time consuming to do it. We have around 40 maps to look after. To balance a map you have to play it frequently to find out what are the issues that are causing the imbalance. The solution might be a easy one like changing ticket numbers, bleed speed, or number of flags needed to start the bleed. Unfortunatly many times it is much more complicated. While the easy fix already is a time consuming task, the hard way can end in a frustrating issue.
We are trying to make broken maps better and with 2.45 you will most likely get more overworked maps than ever. Still we might note be able to fix all of them and even fixed maps have to be proven to work on a full server again.
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And this is the perfect example why it is hard to balance the map. Even though everything seems to be balanced, 148 German wins out of 183 Rounds speak for themself.
While there are many other aspects that can bring us to balance the map the win/loose ratio is a important factor.
THANK YOU!! THANK YOU! 148:35! Thats sort of what I thought. I was really questioning my perception after a couple of (even experienced) players where saying that the map was balanced...
Anyway the thread actually was not about Luttich but about general rebalancing issues. And thanks again also for that answer. Good to hear, that you guys are looking at the stats and are rebalancing some aspects. I also understand how hard it is to find the "perfect" balance, I guess this is something which is (if at all) only to be achieved iteratively (i.e. by trial-and-error).
Thanks again and "keep it up"!! :)
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Why can't we see all those stats about maps on awards page btw?
I'm actually surprised to see germans actually have won so much more, but still it doesn't feel like it. Neither side still isn't too overpowered to make it feel unbalanced. I wouldn't change a thing on luttich. And before someone yell axis bias, my awards show I have played more on allied side on this map ;)
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All this luttich discussion could have been somewhat useful if it was in its own thread at the map feedback forum.
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All this luttich discussion could have been somewhat useful if it was in its own thread at the map feedback forum.
We cant really help it Flippy, the discussion was started to find out if there were map balance changes in 2.45, and it naturally developed into a focused discussion on one of the maps. Is there a way to copy the relevant posts in this thread into a new one in the map feedback forum?
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Yeah the discussion driften "a little" off, but Knoffhoff brought it back on track and gave answers to the initial questions. so we're all happy I guess.
And regarding the map feedback section, it is just not visited by enough people and therefore does not lead to fruitful discussions. I mentioned my issues with Luttich there a couple of months (iirc) ago, yet no reaction and no reaction..
Cheerio!
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I just played a lüttich round as american, and i have to agree! impossible to win, we lost by 150 tickets though we held most of flags most of the time..did anything change with the ticketbleed at last patch? cause i really don't rember it like that
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Most maps are quiet good balanced, though there are some problem cases. I don't want to have perfectly balanced maps, but you should be able to win a map with the given possibility on both sides -> this is the goal of the game. On some maps this isn't possible even with the best team against the most crappiest team.
Best example is Tunis. It is impossible to win on Axis side on a ful server. I won 2 times so far in the time of 2.4 and I played a lot and these victories happened on almost empty servers. General problem on this map is the ticket bleed itself and the speed of the bleed. Same goes for PeB, where it is almost impossible to win on axis side caused by not fitting bleed speed and some problems with the pushmode. "Wiederstandsnest 57" could be capped much too early in the game and after recaping certain flags the pushmode seems like a mess and not like a progressive battle. Though the environment and design of the map is just beautyful and I realy like to play the map. Ramelle has too many tickets and the ticket bleed on the german side stops too early and is too low.
The Bulge maps seem all to be quiet good, Bastogne gets it's tweaks for the next patch and Eppeldorf the needed M36 for the American team. And with some tweaks of the angle mod and damage system maps like Op. Aberdeen and Supercharge can be real fun on both sides. It is not all about these statistics and the interpretation of them, but a team should atleast have the possibility to win a battle with the given assets.
Luttich for example is a quiet good balanced map. Both sides have enough possibilties to win the map. A StuG can be taken out with a single Bazooka, same goes for the PZIV and the Puma. On this map it is more a matter of teamplay.