Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 26700 times)

Offline Solifuge2

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #180 on: 03-08-2012, 00:08:52 »
Actually, you're dead wrong.  FH isn't scaled in distance, thus why rifles can and will hit someone at fog distance with an aimed shot.  The only scaling is in distance between objectives. size of towns, etc.  However the distance you are shooting ingame and the drop, penetration, etc, is all actual distance.

The penetration rage is scaled, otherwise alot tanks would be almost equal since combat range ingame is mostly around 300m. If tank guns have realistic penetration according to the distance ingame the performance of tanks relative to eachother would feel the same. (not counting extreme cases like crusader 2 vs tiger ofc...) That's how the system works, maybe a dev can confirm this?

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #181 on: 03-08-2012, 00:08:15 »
@Solifuge: the system isn't scaled as you described it. The side hull of the Sherman is planar, same as the side hull of the PIV. But you will kill a PIV from any range with a proper angle with one shot - good luck on trying this with the Sherman.

Stop it THeTA, those people are also complaining about that weakness on allies tank too. So you are merely defending a one-sided argument?

@5hitm4k3r : The Zoologic comment also fits you.  We know new tanking system is applied equally on all tanks (axis and allies) so stop complaining about one sided arguments.

No, tank system isn't applied equaly on axis and allied tanks. Otherwise I could kill a simple Sherman from the side with the PIV or StuG, and this isn't the case in many situations. The scaling doesn't fit. Ofcourse a Firefly should able to 1S1K a Tiger, but I will never be able to 1S1K a Firefly with the counterparts like  StuG and PIV in many situations - also when it should. Much, too much luck is involved. Tankdestroyers don't work as tankdestroyers anymore - on both sides. Sherman 76 can easily 1S1K the StuG from the front - why can't I do the same with the StuG to the Sherman 76 though it should? M10 needs two shots on a PIV and I need two shots on the M10 with the PIV - is it supposed to be like this?  :-\

No - it isn't equal and I tested enough to be sure, what works and what not. And trust me - the system we have now, is worse than 2.4. Panzergranate was taken away from the StuG and on the NA maps it is next to useless to use them and I don't bother anymore to switch to them. A Lee or Sherman M4A1 can 1S1K me from the front equal whether in PIII or PIV. If I manage to flank a Lee or Sherman on Sidi Bou and shot him in the side with the PzGr from 50 metre, then I deserve the kill! That's a fact ... but it isn't like this. Take a tank and try it and you will see how frustrating this system his. When some more experienced players tell me, that the system is fine - then I could live with it. I don't know, how much time you spent in the tanks but I tested enough now to judge it - and it isn't equal.

Please bring back 2.4 tank system and improve the real flaws like the bugged Cromwell. That would be great.

Offline Horstpetersens

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #182 on: 03-08-2012, 04:08:55 »
There are really some good improvements in this patch, like the different HE power.

But now the reward employing flanking tactics is almost taken away.
AT guns and tank destroyer loose their right to exist if they can't 1s1k because the first shot returned by the enemy is fatal in 99% of cases.
One exemple what happened to me:
I shoot at the side of a sherman with an 88 at gun.
no kill > sherman returns fire and kills me
In rl the sherman didn't get into range to return fire.

I think shitmaker allready said everything and i totaly agree.
Don't tell me i haven't played enough 2.45 to know that 2.4 was better in this case.
everybody who is experienced in this game i spoke to confirms this.
« Last Edit: 03-08-2012, 04:08:43 by Horstpetersens »

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #183 on: 03-08-2012, 06:08:20 »
I think shitmaker allready said everything and i totaly agree.
Don't tell me i haven't played enough 2.45 to know that 2.4 was better in this case.
everybody who is experienced in this game i spoke to confirms this.

You obviously haven't spoken to enough people then. I've been playing FH2 since it was first released 4 1/2 years ago, primarily driving tanks, and this is the best state the tanking system has been in since then.

But now the reward employing flanking tactics is almost taken away.
AT guns and tank destroyer loose their right to exist if they can't 1s1k because the first shot returned by the enemy is fatal in 99% of cases.
One exemple what happened to me:
I shoot at the side of a sherman with an 88 at gun.
no kill > sherman returns fire and kills me
In rl the sherman didn't get into range to return fire.

I've 1-shot Panthers to the side with the US 57mm at gun and the M10 in 2.45.

Actually, you're dead wrong.  FH isn't scaled in distance, thus why rifles can and will hit someone at fog distance with an aimed shot.  The only scaling is in distance between objectives. size of towns, etc.  However the distance you are shooting ingame and the drop, penetration, etc, is all actual distance.

He's right, it is scaled, maybe not for infantry combat but it is for tanks/at guns. The muzzle velocities of the guns are scaled down to around 70% the velocity of their real life counterparts. The amount of damage a projectile does drops off over distance starting at 10m reaching min at 300m to simulate the decrease in armour penetration over range which BF2 can't do.

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #184 on: 03-08-2012, 08:08:25 »
I've 1-shot Panthers to the side with the US 57mm at gun and the M10 in 2.45.
Of course, that works sometimes, I know that too. But when you do it 3 times and only one of it succeed in one shot kill, I can't say it's working properly.

He's right, it is scaled, maybe not for infantry combat but it is for tanks/at guns. The muzzle velocities of the guns are scaled down to around 70% the velocity of their real life counterparts. The amount of damage a projectile does drops off over distance starting at 10m reaching min at 300m to simulate the decrease in armour penetration over range which BF2 can't do.
75/L70 has 89mm penetration over 2km, now it doesn't one shot the sherman side hull(<40mm) beyond 245m ingame, what kind of scale is this?

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #185 on: 03-08-2012, 10:08:06 »
Of course, that works sometimes, I know that too. But when you do it 3 times and only one of it succeed in one shot kill, I can't say it's working properly.

I've done it repeatedly, managed to get the same dude driving a Panther 3-4 times in the same place with the 57mm in 1 shot before he wizened-up and went somewhere else, I'll admit that it was 2-300m though.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #186 on: 03-08-2012, 11:08:02 »
The devs said that they will revisit the system until they are comfortable with the amount of experience of their players.

So wait nicely and keep recording your encounter experiences. Carry on. Meanwhile, I am now able to confirm that it took 2 x 17 pdr rounds to Tiger I tank to properly kill it.

One perfect example of the working angle mod: my 17 pdr bounced off a Panther in Villers-Bocage, but that was from an extreme angle. The panther was climbing the slightly arched bridge and I shot its front hull from afar. I can see the tracer bounced away. Weird, but happened on another occasion as well, my Cromwell 75 mm shells bounced from the side hull of a Panther, also from an extreme angle (the Panther is tumbling onto a ditch).

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #187 on: 03-08-2012, 12:08:06 »
The devs said that they will revisit the system until they are comfortable with the amount of experience of their players.

So wait nicely and keep recording your encounter experiences. Carry on. Meanwhile, I am now able to confirm that it took 2 x 17 pdr rounds to Tiger I tank to properly kill it.

One perfect example of the working angle mod: my 17 pdr bounced off a Panther in Villers-Bocage, but that was from an extreme angle. The panther was climbing the slightly arched bridge and I shot its front hull from afar. I can see the tracer bounced away. Weird, but happened on another occasion as well, my Cromwell 75 mm shells bounced from the side hull of a Panther, also from an extreme angle (the Panther is tumbling onto a ditch).

That sounds more like a bug, as AFAIK you can't see when the shells bounce because of angle mod, only when you shoot thicker armor than you can penetrate.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #188 on: 03-08-2012, 12:08:52 »
I think shitmaker allready said everything and i totaly agree.
Don't tell me i haven't played enough 2.45 to know that 2.4 was better in this case.
everybody who is experienced in this game i spoke to confirms this.

You obviously haven't spoken to enough people then. I've been playing FH2 since it was first released 4 1/2 years ago, primarily driving tanks, and this is the best state the tanking system has been in since then.


It hasn't anything to do with to how many people we have spoken to. Horst is one of those kinda "sick" players who spent over three hours a day with 2.4 - that's just a average calculation, but just to give you an idea. I think he can judge quiet well, whether 2.45 is worse than 2.4 or the other way around in terms of tanking.

You have to get ridiciolous close to a Sherman to kill it with one shot - and that's not scaled. Where is the charm of tanking when it feels lie CQC? I managed to shot the KT in the side with the M36 on Meuse River from the Allied side of the river - nicely hiding in the forest - and spotting him at the Saw Mill. Perfect shot, perfect angle and good range. Where is the reward for doing all this. I needed a second shot and may have had the bad luck that he spots me or that he manages to escape. I just don't get the sense of this. The player, who takes the risk and attacks the enemy gets penalized for working out an advantage and the player who made a mistake gets rewarded.

Yesterday an allied player shot me with the PAK 40 through the turret of my PIV from 5 metre and took me only half of my HP. I made a mistake so I should had been dead, but it was just bad luck for this poor guy. It wasn't a bad angle or anything else - just bad luck.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #189 on: 03-08-2012, 13:08:23 »
The damage system is FH2 doesn't work with luck or randomness. It's based on rules. You shoot a Panzer IV in the side of the turret with a PaK40 and you'll kill it unless the angle was bad.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #190 on: 03-08-2012, 14:08:56 »
The devs said that they will revisit the system until they are comfortable with the amount of experience of their players.

So wait nicely and keep recording your encounter experiences. Carry on. Meanwhile, I am now able to confirm that it took 2 x 17 pdr rounds to Tiger I tank to properly kill it.

One perfect example of the working angle mod: my 17 pdr bounced off a Panther in Villers-Bocage, but that was from an extreme angle. The panther was climbing the slightly arched bridge and I shot its front hull from afar. I can see the tracer bounced away. Weird, but happened on another occasion as well, my Cromwell 75 mm shells bounced from the side hull of a Panther, also from an extreme angle (the Panther is tumbling onto a ditch).

That sounds more like a bug, as AFAIK you can't see when the shells bounce because of angle mod, only when you shoot thicker armor than you can penetrate.

It bounces with similar animation like when you try to shoot Matilda with Panzer II's 20 mm cannon a.k.a ricochet. You can clearly see the tracer went upwards and all over the places. The bounce animation is already featured before FH2.45. But the anomaly of big tank shells bouncing off thin armour due to angle of impact is new to me. But I'm not sure whether it damages the health bar or not.

I'll post screenshots.
« Last Edit: 03-08-2012, 14:08:30 by Zoologic »

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #191 on: 03-08-2012, 15:08:28 »
The damage system is FH2 doesn't work with luck or randomness. It's based on rules. You shoot a Panzer IV in the side of the turret with a PaK40 and you'll kill it unless the angle was bad.

He was shooting in the frontplate of my turret from 5 metre and not into it's side as I was facing towards him. So yes I call it bad luck. Otherwise the damage is scaled wrong in this example, though I doubt that there is anything to scale at this range with this gun and armor. It should be a clear 1S1K and nothing else.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #192 on: 03-08-2012, 17:08:21 »
THe biggest problem lies in the Sherman. The Panzer IV H and StuGs without sideskirts are easily oneshot killed by piats in the side and rear. That´s okay, but the Sherman takes 2 Piat hits to said areas. Schrecks now also have to hit the Sherman two times, Panzer IV H and StuG are down with 1 shot. The Sherman always could stand a shot from 75mm/L48 to the turret and certain versions a hit to the hull. And of course the occasional Panzerfaust hit that leaves the Sherman with 1 or 2 healthbars.

And this combined with the anglemod and the power decrease over range makes the Sherman a ridicolously powerfull machine in FH2.

I have to agree with Shitmaker here: To the side I haven´t experienced problems to easily 1s1k StuGs and Panzer IVs. Attacking a Sherman however has become a gamble ... even from the sides.

Yesterday I was manning one of the 88s on goodwood and could manage to get 5 tank kills in that round. and only 1 of those was a 1s1k. The others needed 2 to the side mostly and one at a distance of about 100 metres even took 3 hits frontally. Now should that really happen? That Cromwell took 2 hits to the side. That shot on the pic simply bounced. I doubt at this short distance and at a velocity that high a slope would leave the tank intact. I died btw, because a Sherman could stand a shot in the end and put an HE round into my 88.
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Offline [KamiKaze] Destroyer

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #193 on: 03-08-2012, 17:08:16 »
I would remove the ratio of bounced shots... I remember few days ago i sneaked past to the back side of a tiger and shot it 1 time in the butt, 2 times in the side and 1 time to the turret... It didint even start to smoke :/ I was in a crusader 3 tank i think. What i can tell about this situation is, that even through i outsmarted the enemy, the enemy still won just becouse he had better tank, which i think is "unbalanced" =)

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #194 on: 08-08-2012, 06:08:06 »
I've been playing heavily in LAN for the last two weeks. So far the result is confirming the apparent "bug" or unwanted consequences from the angle mod.

I played numerous times in El Alamein, Eppeldorf, Bastogne, Operation Cobra, Operation Totalize, Operation Goodwood, Villers-Bocage Meuse River, and Alam Halfa.

So far, here are the results of my tank vs tank encounters.

Villers-Bocage

Sherman VC Firefly (me) vs. Tiger I
Result: I win
Distance: Farm flag near the house (me) while the Tiger is near the FlaK 18 just at the front of church ruins.
Shots taken: 3, shell APCBC
Shot 1: Hit the top front hull, register a hit (red circle flashed around the crosshair), the Tiger returned fire.
Shot 2: Hit the track wheels, register a hit, the Tiger wasn't even burning.
Shot 3: Hit the gun mantlet and kills the Tiger.

Cromwell Mk. IV (me) vs. Panther G
Result: Panther wins
Distance: I was at the crossroads bocage, near the flag building, the Panther has just appeared out of the closest junction, north of my position.
Shots taken: 3 (by panther)
Shot 1: Hit me at the front turret, probably at the gun mantlet, health bar red out. My return fire ricocheted off its gun mantlet.
Shot 2: Hit me frontally, health bar near exhaustion, my return fire to the tracks register a hit.
Shot 3: Hit me in the tracks, I retreated and exposed my flanks, I was instantly killed.

Tiger I (me) vs. Sherman V
Result: I win
Distance: I was at the bridge crossing the main river, the Sherman has just made a turn towards me from the T-intersection from the farm flag to the road that connects the bridge.
Shots taken: 2, shell APCBC
Shot 1: Hit the turret side, the Sherman burned, but it kept charging forward and the turret started to turn into me.
Shot 2: Hit the front hull, kills the Sherman.

Operation Totalize

Churchill V vs. Panther A
Result: I win
Distance: I was just exiting the alt. bridge crossing into FlaK battery flag, and the Panther is at the other bridge mouth crossing into the Windmill flag.
Shots taken: 3 hits (by Panther, against me), 5 shots (by me, all hits) APCBC shells
Shot 1 (me): Hit the panther at the side turret, hit registered. He begins to notice.
Shot 2 (me): Hit the panther at side hull, registers a hit.
Shot 3 (Panther): Hit me frontally, probably to one of the track mud guards. Health bar reduced by 1/4.
Shot 4 (me): Hit the Panther at side hull (probably the track wheels), registers a hit, the Panther burns.
Shot 5 (Panther): Hit me at the side (extremely angled shot, my health bar barely reduced).
I was frustrated, so I moved forward, and the Panther took the chance to fire again.
Shot 6 (Panther): Hit me at the side (slightly angled shot), my health bar is now 1/2 full.
Shot 7 (me): Hit the gun mantlet and kill the Panther.

Tiger I (me) vs. Cromwell IV
Result: I win
Distance: I was about crossing the bridge to the Windmill flag, the Cromwell has just turned at the T-intersection to the road ahead of me from the mainbase.
Shots taken: 2 (Cromwell), 5 (me), shell APCBC
Shot 1 (me): Hit the Cromwell frontally, registers a hit. The Cromwell evasively ditched to the roadside.
Shot 2 (me): Hit the Cromwell (wasn't clear), registers a hit, probably scraped its paint along the side hulls.
Shot 3 (me): Another hit registered, the Cromwell tilted slightly to the left when he ditched, probably landed along the side hull. So I adjust my aim.
Shot 4 (Cromwell): Hit me at the front hull and reduced my health bar by almost 1/3.
Shot 5 (me): Hit the Cromwell frontally, registers a hit.
I approached the Cromwell, fired another shot that misses. Then continues to cross the bridge.
Shot 6 (Cromwell): Hit me at the gun mantlet (probably), barely reducing the health bar.
Shot 7 (me): Hit the Cromwell frontally and kills it.

Tiger I (me) vs. Sherman VC Firefly
This is not long after the Cromwell encounter above, I managed to travel into the factory (German flag), passing by several defenders of Windmill flag (in Canada team's hand) to support the defense there.
Result: I win
Distance: I was entrenching myself at the Factory flag sandbags, at the exact position where the FlaK 18 cannon was before being destroyed by a Typhoon. The Firefly approached from the train station, a near point-blank distance. He managed to surprise me by landing the first shot.
Shots taken: 2 (by Firefly), 2 (me), APCBC shells.
Shot 1 (Firefly): Hit me at the side turret (maybe), my health bar reds out.
Shot 2 (me): Hit the Firefly at the front hull, hits registered and it burns.
Shot 3 (Firefly): Hit me somewhere, health bar is reduced slightly, I was frantically clicking the fire button.
Shot 4 (me): Hit the Firefly at the same spot, killed it instantly.



These are the encounters I remember exactly. Red text indicates probable unrealistic events.  :P
« Last Edit: 08-08-2012, 06:08:18 by Zoologic »