Author Topic: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48  (Read 26661 times)

Offline ajappat

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #255 on: 18-08-2012, 11:08:27 »
@up. I luv ya. Will u marry me? I agree with you and thats why I'm not playing in this mod atm. This isn't opinion of few ppl as someone might think. There's a large group of old, good players who hate this new sys and because of it they just stopped playing in this mod. That's sad, very sad.
Yes it's sad that good old panzer whores are not immortal gods on battlefield anymore.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #256 on: 18-08-2012, 12:08:15 »
@up. I luv ya. Will u marry me? I agree with you and thats why I'm not playing in this mod atm. This isn't opinion of few ppl as someone might think. There's a large group of old, good players who hate this new sys and because of it they just stopped playing in this mod. That's sad, very sad.
Yes it's sad that good old panzer whores are not immortal gods on battlefield anymore.
That´s not the point Erwin and Guzkovek are making. As I understood it they prefer a more realistic tank combat system like we had before. And a tough fact is that Panthers where a tactical nightmare to fight against and that by 1944 the Germans had a proper gun to knock out any Sherman on almost all armoured vehicles. The fact that not everything was perfectly balanced was the charm of FH2. That´s what differed it from all the arcade games out there, where the "blue" fought versus "red" team. It´s still better than all those games but imo not as good as it used to be.

I proposed to give Allies more Shermans back in 2.4 or to reduce the numbers of german tanks by one or two on most maps to balance it, while keeping the actual tank engagements realistic. But the arcade combat right now is frustrating, a lot more frustrating than the one before. In fact there are more engagements where we don´t get realistic results than there are good ones.

And before we get to the axis biased part again: I also don´t like the fact that a by 1944 almost non existing Luftwaffe gets 3 FW190 on Cobra just for balance. The mod should stay with its roots and that was always a rather big part realism. Hell, we have awesome maps that represent the actual battlefield as good as its humanly possible and then we drive arcade tanks through that?
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Offline Guzkovek

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #257 on: 18-08-2012, 13:08:58 »
@up. I luv ya. Will u marry me? I agree with you and thats why I'm not playing in this mod atm. This isn't opinion of few ppl as someone might think. There's a large group of old, good players who hate this new sys and because of it they just stopped playing in this mod. That's sad, very sad.
Yes it's sad that good old panzer whores are not immortal gods on battlefield anymore.
It's very sad that we have now immortal sherman whores. 2 shoots from Pfaust to sherman ass to destroy it, bravo. The same with Pschreck, even moar epic. I didnt say that I want to see uber-omg-wtf-overpowered Panzerwaffe. I just wanna see well balanced armor fights.

@Butcher. Bingo.

Offline kingtiger1891

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #258 on: 18-08-2012, 15:08:53 »
Yes it's sad that good old panzer whores are not immortal gods on battlefield anymore.

The new system kills the fun of tank vs tank(for both side), but doesn't kill the fun of raping tons of infantry ;)

Offline F.E.Glöckner

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #259 on: 18-08-2012, 15:08:34 »
Which fun of raping infantery?  ::)

Offline Musti

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #260 on: 18-08-2012, 16:08:24 »
I proposed to give Allies more Shermans back in 2.4 or to reduce the numbers of german tanks by one or two on most maps to balance it, while keeping the actual tank engagements realistic/
Yah 2.4 was realistic allright
German armor vs Bazooka M1A1.
Panther's side armor - 50mm - 3 bazooka hits needed to kill.
Stug's III rear armor - 50mm - 2 bazooka hits needed to kill.
Panzer IV's front turret armor - 50mm - 1 bazooka hit needed to kill.

German Armor vs Sherman 76mm
Panzer IV's frontal armor - 80mm - 1 76mm shell needed to kill.
Stug's frontal armor - 80mm - 2 shells needed to kill.
Tiger I's side armor - 80mm - 2 shells needed to kill.
Tiger I's lower side armor - 60mm - 2 shells needed to kill.
etc.

German tanks should have certain advantages (which they had IRL), but 2.4 realistic? far from it.

« Last Edit: 18-08-2012, 16:08:52 by Musti »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #261 on: 18-08-2012, 16:08:30 »
My bad, I meant more realistic than now.

And I´m pretty sure that a StuG was 1s1k with bazooka in the rear.
Panther side armour was 3 hits with a bazooka on the version with skirts. Other than that it was down with 2 hits.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #262 on: 18-08-2012, 16:08:59 »
Had some very frustarting situations yesterday while driving the Sherman 76. I managed like three or four times to flank several Panthers and shot them from a very good spot - now please don't come with the air molecule that forced the shell into a different direction as I knew what I was doing. The distance to the targets was rediciulous close so no chance that I could have failed. And still I only shot those Panthers burning and ofcourse those bastards got the chance to smootly turn their ass and shot me in the face or to escape. Give the players the right to succeed with proper tactics please and don't reward mistakes like not covering the own flanks.

Still the Panther needs too many shots at the heavily sloped armored Sherman turret  ::). Had some nice engagements yesterday with Gotkai and he simply got frustrated more with every shot he slammed into my Sherman with his Panther from 20 metre. So to say - it was fun for me ... the tricked noob  ;D

You also can kill a Panther from the front with a Sherman 76 with a ridiciulous steep angle with two well aimed shots to the tracks where in reality shots would certainly just bounce off.

Cromwell is still bugged as hell and shots bounce off from ridiciulous angles and ranges and shells of all german main tanks (Panther, PIV and the different StuGs, Tiger I) deal two few damage.

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #263 on: 18-08-2012, 18:08:25 »
Cromwell is still bugged as hell and shots bounce off from ridiciulous angles and ranges and shells of all german main tanks (Panther, PIV and the different StuGs, Tiger I) deal two few damage.

How many times does it need to be said, there is no bouncing shells anymore that was removed! Either the shell penetrates or it doesn't; if it does and it was a steep angle then the damage is reduced based on what the angle was.


As for the current tanking system, you guys realize the only change (apart from muzzle velocities) was to damage modifier? It went from being exponential to linear. Instead of all chanting revert, why not actually make a practical suggestion like "we could try doubling the damage modifier" (actual suggestion). So far most of the feedback in the thread is just complaining with no one attempting to suggest a practical solution, and no reverting to a previous version is not practical as that means throwing hours of work out the window (no one seems to see that).


About my actual suggestion underlined above (aimed at someone who actually knows this), would it be possible to do that server-side and let people try it out?

Edit: Adjusted my statement as I was sleep deprived and misread 1 thing about it (distance part).
« Last Edit: 19-08-2012, 02:08:03 by [F|H]Taz18 »

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #264 on: 18-08-2012, 22:08:55 »
How much time do you actually spent on the servers and how much time do you spent in a tank to tell me that I tell bullshit? That would be damn interesting mister clever.  ::)

Ofcourse many people are complaining, since things worked better in 2.4. Our suggestion was to roll back the whole system to 2.4 standard because now, we get ridiciulous situations which reward mistakes and punish skill. You can tell me what you want, but you won't be able to change the experiences I made in the past month with the new system in 2.45 and I played quiet alot.

My example with the Panther that gets shot from an exrtemely steep angle from the front shows, that the angle/damage calculation doesn't work in some cases. Because in this case it is equal, wich angle I have. I will kill it from 90 degree with two shots to the side and I will kill him from less than 30 degree with two shots to the side though it should bounce off from the lower angle and melt through from 90 degree and kill the tank. And you will find similar problems on all the other tanks. You can tell me that it got solved, but my experience says just - Nope ... it is that easy.

The problem in FH2 is the too high influence of the angle at close range. On long range I can life with such bouncing shells or reduced damage, but not from 5 metre or even from ten or twenty. The armor of the Cromwell isn't that sloped or thick that a 88 would bounce of from 5 metre. Because according to the earlier explanations would this speak for a too thick armor and that is just not the case. The 88 just deals too few damage at all, thatswhy the armor gets registrated as too thick ingame. Atleast that's the only exlpaination I can find myself. I just tried FH .7 to take a look at the old system and it works better tbh.

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #265 on: 19-08-2012, 03:08:34 »
How much time do you actually spent on the servers and how much time do you spent in a tank to tell me that I tell bullshit? That would be damn interesting mister clever.  ::)

Way to make something personal, there was no need to be an ass.

My experience has nothing to do with this, it was based on the fact that the bouncing projectiles mechanic was disabled, what you see is the effect of the shell hitting. But for the record, since you decided to make this personal I have been around a lot longer than you have and have played with this system longer than you have as well as tanked in general longer than you have.

Now why don't we get back on topic shall we?!

Ofcourse many people are complaining, since things worked better in 2.4. Our suggestion was to roll back the whole system to 2.4 standard because now, we get ridiciulous situations which reward mistakes and punish skill. You can tell me what you want, but you won't be able to change the experiences I made in the past month with the new system in 2.45 and I played quiet alot.

My example with the Panther that gets shot from an exrtemely steep angle from the front shows, that the angle/damage calculation doesn't work in some cases. Because in this case it is equal, wich angle I have. I will kill it from 90 degree with two shots to the side and I will kill him from less than 30 degree with two shots to the side though it should bounce off from the lower angle and melt through from 90 degree and kill the tank. And you will find similar problems on all the other tanks. You can tell me that it got solved, but my experience says just - Nope ... it is that easy.

The problem in FH2 is the too high influence of the angle at close range. On long range I can life with such bouncing shells or reduced damage, but not from 5 metre or even from ten or twenty. The armor of the Cromwell isn't that sloped or thick that a 88 would bounce of from 5 metre. Because according to the earlier explanations would this speak for a too thick armor and that is just not the case. The 88 just deals too few damage at all, thatswhy the armor gets registrated as too thick ingame. Atleast that's the only exlpaination I can find myself. I just tried FH .7 to take a look at the old system and it works better tbh.

Your missing my point, I didn't say you guys were wrong I said you are not making any constructive suggestions (rolling back/reverting is not constructive as it wastes the time spent). Its not your time being wasted here!

A constructive suggestion from what you posted above would be to add an extra modifier that reduces the angle modifier based on distance (don't know if possible).

Or make it so the angle damage modifier only affects armour above a certain thickness (may address the issue with cruiser tanks but I don't know if possible.



I still think doubling the damage modifier (not angle mod, the modifier that determines the damage based on shell penetration and armour thickness) may help with some of the issues you guys have with the current system.

Offline »KeFeng

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #266 on: 19-08-2012, 03:08:13 »
Hey Guys! (Yay, first post!)

In my Opinion, many German Tanks lost their (important) Advantages. For Example, the STUG's Front Armor is as helpful as a Chest Hair Trimmer for Women. Same with the Panther. Nearly every Allied Cannon can penetrate it from most Ranges.

The Tank-System from 2.4 was far better, if you ask me.
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Offline Cheesus Krighst

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #267 on: 19-08-2012, 03:08:14 »
Before 2.45 everyone was whining about tank battles being to quick, now after the patch everyone is whining about the battles being to arcadey >:( Make up your mind!

Keep the angle mod, increase damage to superior weapons by 11%.

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #268 on: 19-08-2012, 03:08:39 »
Before 2.45 everyone was whining about tank battles being to quick, now after the patch everyone is whining about the battles being to arcadey >:(

It would be arcardey, if every Tank had the same Armor and Cannons (like in BF2/BF3). The System of Forgotten Hope is that the Germans have the Quality, the Allies have the Quantity - isn't it? It's okay. If the System is balanced. That's the Problem. The Cromwell is a "bounced off-Monster", the 76' Sherman is a rolling Victim and the Panther is equal to the Panzer IV. Plus: Using the Panzerschreck is same terrible as using a Bazooka (Accuracy? Damage? Denied!).

The current System is demotivating.
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Inefficiency of the 75mm/L48
« Reply #269 on: 19-08-2012, 09:08:43 »
Must investigate the probable cause...

The Cromwell is way too powerful currently, It survived so many frontal hits from 75 mm L/70 and also FlaK 18 cannons. Also, the 17 pdr is somewhat nerfed, you can't easily kill Panther with that now.

I have to agree to that "penetration means kill." So be it, but keep the damage threshold, please. However, made it so when the armour value (thickness) is under the penetration power, it kills. But if it can't penetrate, you can reduce the health bar (to simulate weakening joints and weld spots).