Author Topic: RULE CHANGE ON [762] starting tomorrow 26th of January - please read!  (Read 2300 times)

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Dear Players,





What is this about?
After watching the server for 2 years now, we have decided to remove the
"Only attack flags you can capture! (green circle) - no ABCs." rule and replace it with
"ABC lines & main bases: do not fire into / out of there!"


What was the initial idea behind the rule?
We introduced the protection of crossed flags about 2 years ago, after the FH2 team had introduced
push code on several more of their new maps.

In newer games, there is a penalty built in when you fire into zones that you are not supposed to (kick, death, etc.). FH2 has not had this penalty and, as the developers have let us know, it is technically
not feasible to include it. Therefor it is not planned to do so.

So with the old rule, we tried to guide the players along the shifting front lines.


What did we achieve?
The players were guided along the switching flags and did not have to worry about someone
attacking their rear areas. Nor did they have to worry about being shot on their way from
the main base to the front line. So gameplay became more relaxed for some.


What were the problems that the rule caused?
Our players became complacent. They started complaining whenever they only FELT that someone
fired into a forbidden area. Even when it was not the case. Other players simply ignored the rule
or tried to push it whenever they felt no admin was watching.

It causes arguments and an overall foul mood because players think they are entitled to us admins
taking care of them 24/7 like they were childs. We would need 64 admins to follow every single player in
death cam to make sure that he is not firing into an uncap zone.

It is an inhumane task and it wears down our admins, and to be frank, us 2 head admins as well.
We cannot possibly enforce this rule and be fair to all parties. Do you remember this
explanation in the news? It was pinnned there for years now, easy to understand and still is ignored so often.

70% of the work that Sandre and I are doing is looking after arguments about admins kicking
or not kicking for violations of the crossed flag rule. We have to explain to players, calm down
admins, mediate flame wars. Admins get worn down, resulting in:

Annoyed behaviour towards players, even if they are behaving o.k. (we can empathise).
Overlooking of really important things: Teamkills, Racism, Tk for assets, flaming.

This is the point where we as Head Admins, who are responsible for rules being enforced on [762],
have to intervene.


Just an outlook on what lies ahead:
Many CMP maps have crossed flags that do not generate a clear front line so they
cause arguments. The FH2.50 maps will have similar flag setups. It will only get worse.
Would you like an example? Check how close these flags are together.


(material taken from the public live stream, we're not leaking new things).


This is why we will remove this rule, effective tomorrow.


I will take your concerns, complaints, comments here. But at this moment we are resolved
to remove that rule which is causing more trouble, anger and worry than it is helping.
As a player, you may not see it, but from the stand point of the [762] admin team,
(red and yellow tags), it has become untolerable and we watched it for too long.


We will again focus on what is important. No racism, no Nazi ideology, no teamkills,
no excessive flaming. Those are the basics that we need to enforce on [762] to make the
server an enjoyable place.


FH2 is a war game after all. You players have to figure out for yourselves where to go,
when to sneak in and pre-cap, where to go to camp or "interdict" with tanks/squads, where
to put AT/AP mines to cut off reinforcements. We give you back your flexibility and remove
an excessive work load from us admins.


For the [762] admin team,
x4fun I<ODIUM>I.
« Last Edit: 26-01-2016, 13:01:33 by x4fun ODIUM »
Kind Regards / MfG
x4fun I<ODIUM>I


Offline Ts4EVER

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Yes, this is a good move, I can imagine the problems of enforcing it, especially if you consider grey area cases like people being left at captured flags or flags switching status due to a counter attack.
Sadly, it appears a coding solution here is not possible. For instance, it does not appear to be possible to create out of bounds areas that change with the map progress (like in newer BF games). The oob areas in BF2 are static and I have never heard of any mod who managed to change this.
I had the idea a while back to attach a radar function to the push symbols, so that the red cross thing would automatically reveal the positions of enemy players around it, but our coders said that this was not feasible as well (for one thing, variable flagzone size means that there would have to be a way to resize these easily).

In the end, the only solution I can offer is the one that is already implemented on Hurtgen and Omaha, meaning the last, most vulnerable push flag is unlocked with a minute of delay.
That being said (and I know one is not supposed to blame the players ;) ), I always find the tactics used by most of the defending players weird. With some exceptions, like the command bunker on PdH, most players and especially also experienced players who lead squads, tend to adopt a remarkably aggressive stance when defending. I am always baffled when I see Germans running into the open fields in the second sector of Omaha Beach, when it seems quite obvious to me that the best bet for a defender would be using the town and its cover. I've even seen the little at gun being pushed into the middle of these fields, even though it has no range at all.
Maybe defending is simply not fun enough in this game or there is some lingering resentment against "camping", but I have always wondered why people do this. Sometimes when I run a squad, people leave it as soon as I give a defend order... Food for thought, maybe ;)

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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ADHD has become virulent among computer gamers these days, I hear.
Well from now on certain people will learn patience the hard way.

Either camp and get some E-penis enlargement kills = loss.
Or play smart and only camp the important stuff = win.
Kind Regards / MfG
x4fun I<ODIUM>I


Offline jan_kurator

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what about excessive spawnrape, now possible also on crossed out flags, is it a good reason for kick/ban, or is it allowed?

Offline Ts4EVER

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That's more of a problem for the mapper though, not the server admins.

edit: although I should stress that with the toolset of BF2, you will never be able to completely make it impossible. What you can do is have a good selection of spawn points in varied locations with reasonable cover and then hope for the best.
« Last Edit: 25-01-2016, 19:01:25 by Ts4EVER »

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Nope. Spawnraping and spawncamping is just as impossible to enforce
as uncap control. You would need 1 admin following each player 24/7
to see which claim is true / untrue.

Therefor we never had and will not, as long as I am responsible,
ever have a rule that forbids "spawncamping" or "spawnraping".
Where is a spawn point? How far do you have to be away from a spawn,
so that a kill is "okay"? 5, 10, 15m? Nope. That just leads down the same road.


« Last Edit: 25-01-2016, 19:01:13 by x4fun ODIUM »
Kind Regards / MfG
x4fun I<ODIUM>I


Offline Alubat

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So from tomorrow.
Players are allowed too sneak into crossed enemy flag and camp until it gets green for capture ? 

Offline Oberst

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I appreciate this change! Impossible to enforce rule and a lot of players just using it as excuses, whenever possible.

Regarding spawnrape: enough spawns in safe locations will do the trick. Here some of the CMP maps need improvement!

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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So from tomorrow.
Players are allowed too sneak into crossed enemy flag and camp until it gets green for capture ?

Yes. But you have to decide if that helps your team win. In most cases it will not.
Kind Regards / MfG
x4fun I<ODIUM>I


Offline LuckyOne

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Well after 2 years, you guys have finally seen the light. That rule always struck me as odd.

Anyway IMHO spawnrape is only a mapper's problem on the very LAST flag of the map.

If a flag is getting camped and people are being killed the moment they spawn, it's entirely the players responsibility to understand that enemy has brought overwhelming force and RETREAT in order to organize a counterattack.

In most games (unless the other team is being total dicks about it), there's always at least one clear flag that is safe to spawn. And even if all the flags are being spawnraped... well that just means the enemy spawns have be totally lightly defended too, therefore a sneaky squad should have no problems turning the tables.

It's all about the players playing it smart. No need to babysit them around.
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline GeoPat

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I think there are code-based solutions if the Devs wanted to go that route.  I know FHT at least has used some special script(I don't know how computers work) to kill players that violated their tournament rules.  It kill players that made kills in main base and players that repaired tanks while in the back seat.  A few other scenarios too.  I wonder if that type of thing could be used to create death zones in crossed-out areas or just killed people who shot into or out it.

Offline FORGOTTENKEVINOHOPE

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now I am wishing for more random spawn points on all maps...  I have no problem with the rule change, just now I know certain players that know exactly where the other teams players will spawn will enlarge their e-penis's a lot more now!

 I guess I can lay my s-mine's out like that too though!

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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And we are online.

Kind Regards / MfG
x4fun I<ODIUM>I


Offline Oberst

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Well after 2 years, you guys have finally seen the light. That rule always struck me as odd.

Anyway IMHO spawnrape is only a mapper's problem on the very LAST flag of the map.

If a flag is getting camped and people are being killed the moment they spawn, it's entirely the players responsibility to understand that enemy has brought overwhelming force and RETREAT in order to organize a counterattack.

In most games (unless the other team is being total dicks about it), there's always at least one clear flag that is safe to spawn. And even if all the flags are being spawnraped... well that just means the enemy spawns have be totally lightly defended too, therefore a sneaky squad should have no problems turning the tables.

It's all about the players playing it smart. No need to babysit them around.

+1

Offline hitm4k3r

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I think there are code-based solutions if the Devs wanted to go that route.  I know FHT at least has used some special script(I don't know how computers work) to kill players that violated their tournament rules.  It kill players that made kills in main base and players that repaired tanks while in the back seat.  A few other scenarios too.  I wonder if that type of thing could be used to create death zones in crossed-out areas or just killed people who shot into or out it.

I think, this is not gonna happen. Preventing the player from doing something by killing him is a quite cheap route and from my POV something that I always hated about PR. The game is complicated enough and with this rule change we try to make it easier and more clear for players. There are still some rules required, no question. But with the upcoming release and some new player I think "easier to understand"=better.

On a side note: spawnrape is part of the game. Ofcourse there should be clever placed spawn points and enough of them. But you will never get total randomness. Afterall, nobody forces people to hit the spawn button in a zone that is in danger.