FH2 Teamwork theory

[SiCaRiO]

thats not level 1 from doom, i think is one of the last levels from the first chapter, dont remember the name trough

EDIT: its E1m6, "central processing" :]

[Natty]

They don't "happen" to run in the same direction. They do so because the map is designed that way, and that, leads to them working together to achieve the objective.

Definition of teamwork = players cooperating in efforts to reach the objective (to solve the map).

Now, if you want to head deeper in to this discussion, we could switch to what actually is a much much more important issue with FH2; the objectives. The goal with the map. Now on maps where there aren't any clear goals, no clear objectives, you won't see the same type (or any) of teamwork, simply because there is no point in really teamworking, since there is no clear objective to clear. Players just kind of aimlessly cruise around killing eachother until one teams timer (tickets) is up.

[LuckyOne]

They don't "happen" to run in the same direction. They do so because the map is designed that way, and that, leads to them working together to achieve the objective.

Definition of teamwork = players cooperating in efforts to reach the objective (to solve the map).

Now, if you want to head deeper in to this discussion, we could switch to what actually is a much much more important issue with FH2; the objectives. The goal with the map. Now on maps where there aren't any clear goals, no clear objectives, you won't see the same type (or any) of teamwork, simply because there is no point in really teamworking, since there is no clear objective to clear. Players just kind of aimlessly cruise around killing eachother until one teams timer (tickets) is up.

Exactly, and that's why we need the changes djinn proposed (well at least some of them). If you could get the commander to coordinate the battle and "create" those objectives you would not need to make levels that feel like playing a corridor shooter... But the players need to change their mindsets too, and stop going for k/d ratio, focus on taking the objectives and winning the round instead... Sadly the new awards system is not helping this...

[djinn]

They don't "happen" to run in the same direction. They do so because the map is designed that way, and that, leads to them working together to achieve the objective.

Definition of teamwork = players cooperating in efforts to reach the objective (to solve the map).

Now, if you want to head deeper in to this discussion, we could switch to what actually is a much much more important issue with FH2; the objectives. The goal with the map. Now on maps where there aren't any clear goals, no clear objectives, you won't see the same type (or any) of teamwork, simply because there is no point in really teamworking, since there is no clear objective to clear. Players just kind of aimlessly cruise around killing eachother until one teams timer (tickets) is up.

Exactly, and that's why we need the changes djinn proposed (well at least some of them). If you could get the commander to coordinate the battle and "create" those objectives you would not need to make levels that feel like playing a corridor shooter... But the players need to change their mindsets too, and stop going for k/d ratio, focus on taking the objectives and winning the round instead... Sadly the new awards system is not helping this...

FH2 has only one or two maps I can think of that come across as 'corridor'.. i. e Brest, Hurtgen and Tunis. Otherwise... I don't see that aspect generally. And the scarcity of this type of map makes each a welcome addition imo.

Anyone figure out how to make a perfectly CQB map anything more than this, I am all ears.

@TheLuckyOne
Which of my ideas don't 'work' for you, and which do

OT, You don't happen to be formerly called Leagion, do you, LuckyOne?

[Natty]

wait a minute.. would removing ammoboxes just to force some dude to take a truck and drive it somewhere be classified as "teamwork"?To me that's just creating arbitrary chores as some layer on top of what the game actually is about.

[djinn]

wait a minute.. would removing ammoboxes just to force some dude to take a truck and drive it somewhere be classified as "teamwork"?To me that's just creating arbitrary chores as some layer on top of what the game actually is about.

You don't remove ALL ammo boxes. But you do make them more scarce, so that they matter. Currently, people don't suffer ammo loss at all. You can spam grenades because the box is at every single base. the truck guy will simply be a relief to people who no longer have AT devices, grenades, medical equipment and stuff... I'd add, put a medical kit at more bases to make the bandages matter too.

 And the ammo-truck driver will be playing for the benefit of others. Its not like he will just be driving the whole round, but his having moved the truck to an area at all will require one of three things,
1. Luck
2. He knows they lack
3. It was called for.

Besides no. 1, that all screams of teamplay imo. Being more conscientious of the team's need. Now imagine, he knows there is an active tank there somewhere, and needs to drive it round back to avoid detection, and has to call for sit rep on the tank to avoid it, that's a new level altogether.

[LuckyOne]

@TheLuckyOne
Which of my ideas don't 'work' for you, and which do

OT, You don't happen to be formerly called Leagion, do you, LuckyOne?

Basically I like all of them, but I don't think the devs have the time or resources to implement  them all...  And yes corridor maps are scarce now, but will the devs make more of them looking for "teamwork" instead going the other way... ?

OT, No you got me confused with someone else there...

[Gezoes]

Making it harder to play a certain role or channelling a route in a level is not the same as encouraging teamplay. It only looks like that. Some people will always play like they want, not giving a crap about the team. If the stupidity becomes too much, I lone wolf too. But always helping the team, and I look a lot at the tactical map. Push mode and objectives are the best ways to encourage teamplay imho.

More medic kits? They are never used as it is. I like being a medic, but with only a handgun, realistic or not, I will never use it. Besides, before you can lay down a bandage, players will have used their own.

[Natty]

You don't remove ALL ammo boxes. But you do make them more scarce, so that they matter. Currently, people don't suffer ammo loss at all. You can spam grenades because the box is at every single base. the truck guy will simply be a relief to people who no longer have AT devices, grenades, medical equipment and stuff... I'd add, put a medical kit at more bases to make the bandages matter too.

 And the ammo-truck driver will be playing for the benefit of others. Its not like he will just be driving the whole round, but his having moved the truck to an area at all will require one of three things,
1. Luck
2. He knows they lack
3. It was called for.

Besides no. 1, that all screams of teamplay imo. Being more conscientious of the team's need. Now imagine, he knows there is an active tank there somewhere, and needs to drive it round back to avoid detection, and has to call for sit rep on the tank to avoid it, that's a new level altogether.

But if you're out of ammo, it's much quicker to suicide and get new ammo from the new kit than to wait for some dude with a truck who might or might not appear sometime in the near future, maybe or maybe not where you need him, or where you will be at that time.
No, there isnt ammoboxes at every single flag. Far far from it.
The scenario where the truck driver "calls for a sit-rep" from his team mate to be able to "drive the truck round back", on what map could you ever expect this to happen? because Im having problems seeing this occur more than on a very extreme occasion... it's just not how people play this mod.

[djinn]

You don't remove ALL ammo boxes. But you do make them more scarce, so that they matter. Currently, people don't suffer ammo loss at all. You can spam grenades because the box is at every single base. the truck guy will simply be a relief to people who no longer have AT devices, grenades, medical equipment and stuff... I'd add, put a medical kit at more bases to make the bandages matter too.

 And the ammo-truck driver will be playing for the benefit of others. Its not like he will just be driving the whole round, but his having moved the truck to an area at all will require one of three things,
1. Luck
2. He knows they lack
3. It was called for.

Besides no. 1, that all screams of teamplay imo. Being more conscientious of the team's need. Now imagine, he knows there is an active tank there somewhere, and needs to drive it round back to avoid detection, and has to call for sit rep on the tank to avoid it, that's a new level altogether.

But if you're out of ammo, it's much quicker to suicide and get new ammo from the new kit than to wait for some dude with a truck who might or might not appear sometime in the near future, maybe or maybe not where you need him, or where you will be at that time.
No, there isnt ammoboxes at every single flag. Far far from it.
The scenario where the truck driver "calls for a sit-rep" from his team mate to be able to "drive the truck round back", on what map could you ever expect this to happen? because Im having problems seeing this occur more than on a very extreme occasion... it's just not how people play this mod.

Well, with the current architecture, it isn't.

We don't have those radios that allow the Squad leader to speak to the driver (team). We don't have the degree of limited kits I envisage. And we don't have hefty enough a penalty for suicide to deter that kind of tactic/ exploit.

Currently, if you sit in a tank, by the time you can  type out to your tank commander or team tanks that there are enemy to their flank, the would be burning piles of scrap metal... With the commo-rose I suggest, this will be a simple 'enemy infront', 'enemy right of us' etc...

Its the effect of the entire system in place. Tanks aren't feared, because they are going up against enemy with zooks that have 3 rounds, each of which can 1-shot kill them if aimed right, and reload about 5 times faster than they can with maingun, and can be concealed in a 6foot by 2 foot area anywhere, maneouvers alot faster than the tank can...

The odds are still stacked against the tanker.

I do beg to differ about the teamplay you say doesn't exist often. Every time I play FH2, it takes simple use of the text-chat to get people in line. I have called mass charges of alll tanks on 128 server, and infantry charges on many serves from HSLAN to that server that wont go official-ranking on us, and EACH time I get people to follow orders. I have had a complex attack occur each time I called for it. I got smoke barrage to fire across the enemy line, with creeping barrage on their position, and got infantry and armor to move in enmasse. people WANT to play as a team - Especially on maps like El Alamein where it drags on because of the lack thereof.
Why have I been so succesful? Because, players aren't stupid. They JUST need the tools to allow them to play for tactically than they currently do. Without these, only a small percentage like myself will go out of our way to.

With it, WWII tactics will become an everyday occurrence.

[Zoologic]

Well, it is still pretty much what it is right now, because one guy still believe that he can grand-scheme it all.

"Ha! That noob is trying to go to the open field through the barn, stupid idea! I put a dead cow in the opening so he can't pass through!"

"Now look at that one, he think he can enter that building somewhere, now he is trapped hahahaha!"

"Right there, people are predictable, he exactly drove on the paths that lead to the flag despite the clear area!"

"Finally, a guy fords through the shallow waters I placed just there!"

When this kind of guy enters the game, players expect more from him, like knowing every exploit (or vantage points) of the map he designed and claims to know so well. Give them some freedom, but let's direct them, to where they can be free.

The worst thing is:

"Now you teamwork here, but you don't teamwork there!"


PR approach however, is more like, let's create a map from the real one, then place some flags on several vantage points. Perhaps Muttrah is the example. This is more like true freedom, chaotic, unpredictable, yet can be fun most of the times.

"Hey I don't know that we can enter this building! But what for?"

"Gosh that house over there, if only we can enter it, this firefight would have been more interesting!"

"Can we access the roof of this building?"

Despite the freedoms, they also put some enforcement to restrict/direct player behavior. PR used game mechanics to force the teamwork, while FH claims that it came from the map design. Well, mostly.

[NTH]

Which game mechanics Zoo?

[LHeureux]

Which game mechanics Zoo?

"YOU MUST JOIN A SQUAD"

"You must have at least 4 players in the squad to request that kit" (so join another squad and wait 2 minutes to have it or ask people to join your squad)

"You must have a driver to operate the main gun"

Many other exemples.

[Lydecker]

FH2 has tons of teamwork and it's forced to players in a way that is FUN. It is designed and players these days do have the idea of working together. 6 years of BF2 and other games empathizing teamplay more and more have changed a lot of people from "me,me,me" to "we,we,we." Sure, we're all individuals and we all still go full out lonewolf with a kit, tank or even a jeep, but the basics of working together are, IMO, well inserted in everyone's playstyle.

I don't need VOIP, teamchat nor other comms to know exactly whats going on with the team. Maybe that's just me, but it's pretty clear on the map how things are going, where people are going to attack next and what troubles may lay ahead. Maybe it's formed in my head clearly like this because I've played the role of pilot for so long and reading players intentions from the map is a second nature to me.

In tactical situations, clearing a town with house-to-house fighting, VOIP can be a valuable asset. Other than that, I usually just find it annoying, hindering the experience of WW2 battlefield. A Mumble support with voice alternating technique could make it much more interesting for me. Sorry, but your voices are not sexy

//Lyd

[NTH]

Which game mechanics Zoo?

"YOU MUST JOIN A SQUAD" --> Server rule.

"You must have at least 4 players in the squad to request that kit" (so join another squad and wait 2 minutes to have it or ask people to join your squad) --> Is this really teamwork or just 6 people that need to join a squad

"You must have a driver to operate the main gun" -> Yeah here you could have some teamwork between the driver and the gunner. A bit like between a spotter and Artillery, the Willy calliope and the Stuka Zu Fuss.

Many other exemples.

See comments in red. I think PR has it's merits in the way you play the game and I think FH2 has found a very nice balance between player freedom, historical accuracy, teamwork and fun.
The way FH2 does it is in the map design and the assets you get in the map. Mind you need all maps were made like that. Some of them are good old conquest maps.
I wouldn't mind seeing old maps changed with clear objectives (semi-push, full assault)