Author Topic: Bad admin  (Read 6098 times)

Offline Harmonikater

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #45 on: 15-05-2013, 20:05:25 »
I see the point. Our approach was to create an atmosphere where even newcomers get their chance.
If you don't add this rule or at least a notion like this (it should not be necessary, it should go without saying, but you know as well as I do that it does not) -  there will only be the pros getting into vehicles and that would frustrate new players.

Simply doesn't work that way...
Did you read Surfbird's post?
I'll restate that:

The current interpretation does not account for the fact that new players don't know the exact place down to the meter where the vehicle/kit they're waiting for spawns. Experienced players do however know this and while the new player has to run around the general spawn area hoping that a tank will spawn next to him  (in many places there are no camouflage nets or other markers that indicate where vehicles spawn), the experienced player will run straight to where he knows his preferred vehicle will spawn. Now the new player, who has been waiting in the general vicinity for a longer time might see the other player wait in a specific spot so he thinks to himself that maybe that other guy knows a tank will spawn there. So he runs to the same spot.
Now (from what i can gather) the precedent, as established by your server admin's desicions, is that the person standing in the specific position is first in line, because there are single lines for each vehicle. And unless you know where the vehicle spawns exactly, you less likely to be first in line, especially on the 128p server.
Result: Pros are much more likely to get vehicles. And as you said yourself, this frustrates new players, especially as they don't know the exact procedure for this rule, and might think that others are skipping the waiting line.

"Wait your turn" describes it pretty much. People who want to understand it, do so. Others...

You know that the window in that loading screen only allows for a certain amount of digits per line, right?
We tried to make it as clear as possible, frankly, I don't see where the problem is.

You are the first person who needs to have added  "there is only one line for each asset".

From my personal experience, I can definitely say that the last line is not the case. In many cases new players want to try out driving tanks or flying planes. Try telling a new player that to wait for the Sherman 76 he has to wait in line exactly where it spawns. He will NOT know where it spawns and likely also not know what exactly a Sherman 76 is. If you ask them what they're waiting for they can just tell you "a plane", or "a tank".

So your concept to create a "environment where new players get a chance", while in all intentions good and noble is fundamentally flawed.

Also, and now this time I relate to the argument between Smooth and Boo(Rus), if server policy is to create such an environment, I should think that all admins should work towards that goal also, and not exploit the fact that new players don't know spawn locations. In this instance Boo(Rus) walked towards the location where he, but not Smooth, knew where a specific tank was going to spawn. Now he did ask Smooth what specific vehicle he was waiting for, however that question will in most cases be unanswerable to new players.
I fully support a server policy that makes it more enjoyable for new players to join, but in that case all admin staff have to pull in the same direction.
As a responsible admin I would have expected Boo(Rus) to step back and let a new player take a vehicle (since he had technically been waiting longer for it. A desicion backed by rules/law doesn't always have to be a morally valid desicion.
I can understand that Boo(Rus) wants to play just like any regular player, but the priviliges he gets as an admin also carry duties with them. In this case using the rigidity of certain rules to his advantage does not display sensible admin behaviour, reflects badly on his fellow admins and, which I think is the most significant problem, undermines Odium's goal of creating a new player-friendly environment.

I fully support a waiting in line rule, however please adapt it to the reality ingame, and instruct all admins to follow in the same direction.
I do bad things to the BF2 engine.

Offline Fred

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #46 on: 15-05-2013, 20:05:04 »
What to do instead of waiting for your turn and waiting on a special position. Team killing everyone who wants to take your vehicle?

I think if you nearby the vehicle you want to use no admin would kick you.

But like sex_bomb said 30m away from the vehicle and team killing a player and saying that is mine is not the right way.

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #47 on: 15-05-2013, 21:05:21 »
Well, I have talked to Boo and believe he has seen the problem.

On the other hand, I cannot argue with you about an imaginative fight that you might have somewhen in the future, Smooth. That is asked a bit too much imho.

If you have a complaint, contact the admin responsible, and if you cannot sort it, you can come to Sandre or me. That's the best I can offer.
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Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #48 on: 15-05-2013, 21:05:15 »
That people still keep arguing about this stuff.  ???

One single question for the people, who argue in a quite active way against our server management but use our server management nevertheless quite often, some on a daily basis:

What are the servers doing, that

1. don't have such an active administration and
2. such rules and
3. discussions about the incompetence of admins who are doing their job half assed?

Right, they are empty and this for almost 24/7 and that shows that we are doing something damn right.
So I can life with the consequences. That we can only enforce this rule, when an admin is witnessing it is the most stupid bs I had to read for a long time. Every rule can only be enforced when an admin is there and - more importantly - active, be it on the server or not. Simple as that.

I especialy like it how everybody is going on a rampage just because a new admin did one single mistake and start questioning the server management at all. We have a better organisation than some of you might think.

Cheers  ;)


Offline Surfbird

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #49 on: 16-05-2013, 00:05:23 »
I wonder why you try to cut the discussion and who you relate this too?

On the last page nobody argued "against your server management".

I brought up constructively that the rule is not expressed clearly. Smooth brings this up too and Sex_Bomb as well, but has a different opinion arguing against the rule as it can be misleading and is difficult to enfore and having the bad aspect of causing flamewars, which is absolutely true and I also somewhat share this opinion, as I stated before. Harmonikater brought up a very good post I agree 100% with.

Sorry, but I don't see any attempt to bash the 762 team here. It feels more like you can't deal with criticism and everyone who expresses it is an unthankful moron visiting the forums for the whole purpose of bullying 762 admins, which is just not the case.

You should rather be happy about suggestions and criticism, but you seem to rather ignore the totally constructive complaints about the rule being unclear and therefore frustrating for many people, which is sad. While it's correct you make something right with your server, this does not mean you can't improve ;)

You consider criticism as attacks as you have a different opinion, and now this is something I indeed dislike. Furthermore, you pretend that it's all your superawesome server administration that brought you where you are.
All your pride of finally being the only admin team running FH2 servers succesfully around makes you blind. Find the light switch.


Edit: ^Here you finally got someone arguing against your server management unlike before. Now tell me that your players love your server (which is to a big part true and totally fine) and that I can go fuck off, because I have a different opinion :)

(I also love how this is my post Nr 762)
« Last Edit: 16-05-2013, 00:05:26 by Surfbird »

Offline CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #50 on: 16-05-2013, 01:05:07 »
Something that was touched on earlier could use a bit of clarification is that the rule requiring you to wait in line for a kit or vehicle applies to specific kits and vehicles. In other words, you must learn where vehicles spawn and wait directly there for them, and if you are the first person doing this, the vehicle is yours when it spawns and remains yours until you die.

For example: at the American main on Eppeldorf, there are 5 tanks that spawn there. 1 x 75mm Sherman, 2 x 76mm Sherman, 1 x M36 Jackson, and 1 x M8 Greyhound. If you want the Greyhound but someone has it, you must go wait where it spawns. If you want the M36, you need to go stand where it spawns. If you are the only person standing there, it's yours when it spawns. But you can't just stand in a random spot at the flag, and when someone else spawns and happens to be closer to a tank when it appears and takes it, you really can't complain, because you weren't waiting in line, you were just standing around.

It may seem harsh and yes it can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but I think it's a very necessary rule to enforce. Running around like a chicken with your head cut off is not waiting in line and the other person is not stealing your vehicle if they get to it first.

For newbies here are some tips:

  • It never hurts to simply ask someone else if you can have the tank if they are waiting there first. I've seen plenty of players forfeit a vehicle that was rightfully theirs and have done it many times myself over the years, simply because the other player showed that rarest of characteristics in online war gaming: politeness. Don't expect someone to hand over something they've been waiting 10 minutes for, but it can't hurt to ask.
  • Secondly, and another admin may correct me on this but this is at least my own opinion and how I handle it personally: sometimes a player may go in line for a tank and then become afk. As far as I know there is no asterisk in the 762 Rulebook of Death for this situation, so what I do is count 5 Mississippis in my head, shooting over the head of the player and at the tank in question whilst spamming CHARGE! on the Commo Rose, and if he has not woken up from his daydreaming, I take the vehicle if no one else was in line. If he wakes up as I am driving away and goes chasing after me, I will bail and hand over the tank, but if I'm halfway to Berlin by the time he comes back and starts complaining someone's got "his" Panther, fuck'em. For all any of us know the player is Alt+tabbed out of the game and decided to try and watch the first 3 seasons of Game of Thrones in one go and the war will be over by the time you're done waiting for him to take his turn with the tank and get it over with. Be fair: give the other guy a chance even if he is afk (sometimes you're just picking your nose and removing a booger is more effective than !spawnKingTiger ever was), but if he is just standing there dick in hand then that tank is going to waste, so have at it.
  • Third tip: if you really really really want a vehicle, then figure out who is in it right now, and watch the kill messages for their untimely demise. Quickly suicide and spawn at the flag you need to get your tank at, and bam! She's yours. Protip: if you can't figure out who is in the tank, you might be able to do the following. Let's say it's Luttich and you want the M8 Greyhound. The Greyhound and the Stuart both appear as Light Tank icons on the map, so hit caps lock and click on any Light Tank icons you see on your map. This turns the icon from blue to white. If that player is in a squad, then one of the names in the squad list to the left of your map will highlight white as well. Open that squad and see who's in it, and whoever's name is lighted up white is the guy in that tank. Now you can watch the kill messages for his death (or, don't forget, simply ask him in teamchat if you can have the tank next). If the player is not in a squad, this tactic will not work, but if they are it's a good thing to know.
  • Last thing to remember for now: the line rule does not apply at the very start of the round. When the round starts, the first person to get to the tank or the plane gets it, and tough shit if you don't. However, the vehicle belongs to a player only until he dies or bails it. It's not automatically his for the rest of the round. If he dies, respawns, and no one is in line for it, then he can have it again. If you want to wait in line while he's in it, it's yours.
Bailed vehicles are trickier, because it's hard to tell what the player is doing. Sometimes he is indeed running off like a coward with his pants full of shit to let the Tiger sit there burning, but sometimes he is running over to a mortar with an ammo kit next to it, so he can reload and repair. In this situation (which is fortunately very rare), my personal opinion is just let him do what he's doing and use the ol' count-to-5-Mississippis routine from earlier. If the bailer hasn't reappeared with a wrench or a tow truck in 15 or 20 seconds then too bad for him. That's just my opinion though, happy to be corrected. If you want to play it safe, just hang out in the main, and if you want to play it really safe, just for the hell of it, hit Printscreen and take a screenshot of you waiting in line with no one around, and then take another one if someone steals your vehicle. Believe it or not, admins of all servers know who is developing a reputation for stealing weapons and assets and will deal with whoever is caught, but it is an exceptionally difficult thing to police when it turns into a he said/she said battle in which no one should be kicked since no one is proven guilty. Screenshots will usually prove someone guilty, so use them to your advantage.

And one last tip for newbies: you will sometimes see a player saying he's a great tanker so he should have the Tiger, or other players asking you to let them take over because they're better than you are. Two words: FUCK THAT. You will never become good at an exceptionally difficult game like FH2 by being intimidating or worrying about other people complaining about you. Sometimes yes, the tide will change in a battle when a better tanker is in your vehicle, but it ain't real blood. If you follow the wait in line rule it doesn't matter whether it's your first day playing and the other guy has been head admin since the day the mod was released, if you're first in line then tough shit for him. Do your best to help your team and never stop learning.
« Last Edit: 16-05-2013, 01:05:22 by Christie.Front.Drive »
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Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #51 on: 16-05-2013, 02:05:16 »
Hey Surfbird,

we appreciate you guy's constructive feedback but at the moment we will stick to our ruleset as given.
As said, most of the players understand the rule as it is meant and therefor we're not going to change it unless it's going to cause big trouble.

The idea is to keep it slim and simple. I've seen clans with 3 pages of server rules. Noone is going to read that.

And no worries, even 5hitm4k3r apprecieates your constructive criticism. He is just so used to getting shitstormed in this forums that sometimes he snaps at people who don't even deserve it. Just as I did with LuftwaffeBe :P We're all human and sometimes it's late and been a long day when we get to post here.

See you guys on the servers!
Kind Regards / MfG
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Offline Kalkalash

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #52 on: 16-05-2013, 07:05:41 »
Well, I have to say that in my opinion the 'wait in line' rule is silly because it's wrong by definition. It assumes that there is a line. Every person sitting in the main waiting for a vehicle is one less person on the frontline. If you do that, you're not playing the game, you're just being useless.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin

Offline Smooth

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #53 on: 16-05-2013, 09:05:35 »

 But you can't just stand in a random spot at the flag, and when someone else spawns and happens to be closer to a tank when it appears and takes it, you really can't complain, because you weren't waiting in line, you were just standing around.


Thats what Im talking about. I was kicked in 762/64 server for taking the Stuka nearby me, the admin (dont remember the name) was waiting at other plain spawn. He kicked me because I didnt wait in "one" line.

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #54 on: 16-05-2013, 13:05:47 »
@Kalkalash: Most people would still stay in base until a special vehicle respawns, even without that rule. Difference is, that the one who taps "E" first, gets the plane and the other 3 people sit there and wait again.
--> No difference at the front.
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #55 on: 16-05-2013, 13:05:29 »
Right, they are empty and this for almost 24/7 and that shows that we are doing something damn right.

The only thing you've done right that is supported by this fact is the following: you secured a monopoly on the 128 players server.
At least be a bit honest with yourself.  :P


Offline Kalkalash

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #56 on: 16-05-2013, 14:05:26 »
@Kalkalash: Most people would still stay in base until a special vehicle respawns, even without that rule. Difference is, that the one who taps "E" first, gets the plane and the other 3 people sit there and wait again.
--> No difference at the front.
Yes, especially with veteran players. But imagine a new player. Someone who is playing FH2 for the first time. He is loading the map he sees that rule. "Wait in line". That instantly creates an image in his head that people wait for vehicles in large groups. As if it's a perfectly common and acceptable thing to stand around doing nothing. And just like that, you've created another player who's going to spend most of his time waiting. The rule has good intentions and is good as a principle but in reality it's just feeding the problem by creating that mindset of standing around.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin

Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #57 on: 16-05-2013, 15:05:43 »

The only thing you've done right that is supported by this fact is the following: you secured a monopoly on the 128 players server.
At least be a bit honest with yourself.  :P

Wrong. The 128 player code is freely accessible to everyone. F|H, WaW, even HSLAN.
Just for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

But, boo hoo, the baaad [762] and their monopoly. The dark empire. The axis of evil. The Gremlins. The Sith. Yes. Sometimes I don't know if i should take what you write serious, Strat84. I hope the other users do not.


@Kalkalash: 1. The rule says "Wait your turn". We don't mention a line that we want to create with one single word. It is supposed to encourage courtesy in the server. We do not "make" any player wait. It is his choice if he wants to wait 5 minutes for a Tiger B or just jump into an APC and be infantry.
« Last Edit: 16-05-2013, 15:05:26 by x4fun ODIUM »
Kind Regards / MfG
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Offline Strat_84

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #58 on: 16-05-2013, 15:05:13 »
Wrong. The 128 player code is freely accessible to everyone. F|H, WaW, even HSLAN.
Just for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

But, boo hoo, the baaad [762] and their monopoly. The dark empire. The axis of evil. The Gremlins. The Sith. Yes. Sometimes I don't know if i should take what you write serious, Strat84. I hope the other users do not.

I don't want an argument with you.

But it's also becoming tiresome to read again and again "all the other servers are dead because we are awesome", it's wrong and you know it. 762 #4 is the only 128 players public server online and that's why everyone is on it. Not considering anything else.

Now since you're talking about the code itself, please show me where it is supposed to be freely available to everyone, I'm curious about it.  :)


Offline x4fun ODIUM

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Re: Bad admin
« Reply #59 on: 16-05-2013, 16:05:04 »
Look up this very forum where bloodydeed has offered the code some months ago to server hosters who are interested in it. Feel free to contact him. Neo82 has worked together with bloody and written his own solution for the 128p server, in cooperation with bloodydeed. New Era Warfare Clan's is the teamspeak you need to go to talk to bloody or After Dune (AD framework).

I did not say we're awesome. Take a look through my posts and show me where you see me bragging, if you feel the need for it. No one forces you to play at [762].

The only thing where you will see me post things here is when people spread wrongful things about our servers. Or to react to criticism, as in this thread. Or to give feedback where I can. I'm not here to get into arguments with you, Strat84.
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