Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Emperor Showa on 07-04-2009, 03:04:32
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Since there was some discussion concerning these in the "Operation Downfall thread", I thought I'd set up an umbrella thread for other "Alternate history" battles and suggestions on the very idea and suggestions on possible maps. I have very few alternate history maps I'd like to see personally, and would rather not like to press the matter outside of Downfall, but this thread is more community geared should community members want it*. So if this evolves into an evil noobie monster, please don't blame me (and if it is one already, I apologize).
So here's the Operation Downfall thread for any discussion concerning that: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=221.0
The Alt. history map I'd like to see besides Downfall:
- Invasion of Australia (Japan vs. ANZACs; basically, what if the Japanese won Coral Sea**)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II
*I know there's a huge chance of none of these ever being mapped, or if any at all are mapped, it will be likely very far into the future. However, I think its a fun type of discussion and suggestion area regardless.
**This invasion would likely have been very doomed, but I think that was the Japanese goal at least in part.
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German invasion of USA ftw!
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German invasion of USA ftw!
This particular scenario reminds me of that mediocre and buggy FPS game "Turning Point: Fall of Liberty". Besides, does Germany even have the manpower to do that (unless they take the US by surprise)? The East Coast is probably the farthest they could get...
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I'm certain I saw a commercial a while back for a documentary on Hitler's secret plans to invade America. Never watched it though so I don't know what was actually covered.
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Yes.... but Go229 flying over washington... kick ass.
By that Time.. USSR, UK and a large part of Africa would be in german hands.. but afaik the invasion of USA was never planned by Hitler.. only bomings from the Azores.
Ok one more easir.. Battle for India.. Battle of Suez.. Streets of Moscow. Invasion of Tibet.. whit a Dalai Lama playermodel :D
Hitler dindt had plans to invade UK.. he later created these plans because UK didnt surrender.. after defeating France.
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"The East Coast is probably the farthest they could get..."
Depends, this is Alternative history.
A good Alternative history battle would be based on Operation Sealion - The German Invasion of Britan. It could be a sort of Two parter with the first being a night time Paradrop invasion of either Brighton or Dover and the other being a Seaborne Invasion of the aforementioned areas.
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"The East Coast is probably the farthest they could get..."
Depends, this is Alternative history.
A good Alternative history battle would be based on Operation Sealion - The German Invasion of Britan. It could be a sort of Two parter with the first being a night time Paradrop invasion of either Brighton or Dover and the other being a Seaborne Invasion of the aforementioned areas.
I wanna see the weapons used by the British Home Guard in that case:
The Northover Projector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northover_projector)
The Blacker Bombard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_Bombard)
As well as historical and varied British Bunkers (http://www.pillboxesuk.co.uk/)
Please note that the above weapons were black powder weapons. :P
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Soviets attacking the Kummersdorf facility and facing the Maus. :D
Or maybe we can turn the story that Hitler escaped to New-Swabia in the Antarctis with the Hanebu where he and a group of loyal SS-guards plan to retake the Reich and live in a secret ice base. Then the Allies get to know of that plan and invade the fortress in 1946. Now THAT would be fun! ^^
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I can see it already. Flying a Horten Ho 229 over the white house. Would be fun.
As long as no one puts swastika's on the Ho229, since they were put on there by the Americans at capture.
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Sealion would be awesome. Remember those snorkel Panzer III's from POTD? I would want one of those :P
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(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/German_Walker_Force.jpg)
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for a while now I've had a plan to make a couple of early cold war conflict maps. Putting Americans against Soviets with WW2 weapons, fighting in mid 1945 to late 1945 and perhaps some in 1946, In and around Germany and Poland.
All in Planning stage still, ofcourse.. we're still missing American forces, and then have to wait longer to get the Soviets :P
Gives me enough time to plan things ^^
...would be cool though, having Fireflies and M10 go up against T34's :D
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or even better M26s vs IS3s :o
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My dream would be an alternate timeline scenario far in the future, where world war 2 has never ended, but has been going on for thousands of years. Man would have fled this solar system millennia ago and established outposts all around the galaxy. Axis and allies would no longer be fighting for Normandy or Stalingrad, but for the control of entire planets. There could be both space battles and ground battles with futuristic weapons. This scenario could even be expanded with alien races joining the war.
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::)
(http://www.vif2ne.ru/smf/stuff/decoy/g05317_7393404.jpg)
(http://www.trooperpx.com/AFS/ImagesMaK/nit24109.gif)
(http://www.trooperpx.com/AFS/ImagesMaK/nit24098.gif)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I2Vgp-Gddxs/SLLSzRghQPI/AAAAAAAADeo/CXkE2IbjIX4/s400/mak4.jpg)
(http://static.benippon.com/shop/images/4887870027.jpg)
(http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/gear_pilot/100_0161.jpg)
(http://www.chadsoileau.com/ebay/2009-03-01/gearkrieg1-2.jpg)
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::)
(http://www.vif2ne.ru/smf/stuff/decoy/g05317_7393404.jpg)
Awesome!
*plays Red Alert's Hell March music*
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Awesome!
*plays Red Alert's Hell March music*
Westwood are kids.
Project of armored motorbike with combination of 82-mm and 132-mm rocket missiles, february-march 1942.
(http://img5.imageshost.ru/imgs/090312/c6cf9e175cc0583b137115fcc27eb0fb/1bf1efaa460012a3b916d0b54401863e.jpg)
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for a while now I've had a plan to make a couple of early cold war conflict maps. Putting Americans against Soviets with WW2 weapons, fighting in mid 1945 to late 1945 and perhaps some in 1946, In and around Germany and Poland.
All in Planning stage still, ofcourse.. we're still missing American forces, and then have to wait longer to get the Soviets :P
Gives me enough time to plan things ^^
...would be cool though, having Fireflies and M10 go up against T34's :D
Allied tanks vs Soviet tanks? All possible, even without twisting history. Look at the Korea war. BF:Korea is still far away from release but hell I also like it because it was a 'cold war' war.
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I think all maps currently are alternate history maps because both sides have the possibility to win, no matter what the history really tells. ;)
But I got your main idea and I must say I disagree. I dont think FH2 should do such things, not even when finished. They should be from people who work on a spin off for FH2 instead, like FHSW used to be.
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one map could use special weapons from Warfront: Turning Point.
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But I got your main idea and I must say I disagree. I dont think FH2 should do such things, not even when finished. They should be from people who work on a spin off for FH2 instead, like FHSW used to be.
Perhaps a little bit of a Devil's advocate here (as I'm not gaga over this or going to push alternate history maps as a potential idea with any great tenacity or drive since I really don't care much either way.):
Here's the thing. I think realistic alternate history maps are a good idea in moderation. Your Sealion's, Invasion of Australia (IE, mustard gas and other gas warfare along North Africa as the Japanese assault the coast and advance and as Australia concedes the North to buy time*) and so forth. The reason being, many of these possibilities could have happened and are relatively realistic or totally realistic, and for example, the fact that Japan can win the Coral Sea should, to me, at least allow the open mindedness to an expression of what would happen next rather than the rest of the game being treated -in map content- as if they lost like they actually did. I understand not devoting to alternate history maps, but I think the idea should be kept open as, as the above example says, the Japanese can win Coral sea so what happens thereafter could draw fun. My issue is people who think this entails a Secret Weapons orgy (which I notice heavily among many of these suggestion and posts). It doesn't. Secret weapons shouldn't be involved at all in most possible maps beyond Nazi's invading the US in 1946 (which I think is a bit too fanboyish) and other maps like that which would likely never be made by even fans because they require too much work compared to others that can be mapped using existing elements or little addition.
Alternate history =/= Secret Weapons
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Australia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Line
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If I recall correctly, it was you who posted several alternate history weapons in the thread this one sprung out of.
So if there was anyone who gave the idea of secret weapons (or alternate weapons), it was you.
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If I recall correctly, it was you who posted several alternate history weapons in the thread this one sprung out of.
So if there was anyone who gave the idea of secret weapons (or alternate weapons), it was you.
Perhaps, but those weapons were mostly of a realism based brand of alternate history where WW2 lasted longer or was slightly different, and some of those could have come about at Downfall or were at least meant as food for thought on possible latter day weapons in feasible design development by the time the US got to invading Japan in 1945 and 1946. Not a total wacky Secret Weapons slew. Likewise, I didn't post them as in "Put these in! put these in!" but as in "Here's some things which possibly could have come into existence so you might want to look. I'll just post all of them, Downfall and not and out there and not (though I prefer the not in that part), so you guys can take a look." So they weren't integral parts but simply possible things that could see some form of inclusion. And I didn't post the more out there stuff because I wanted it in Downfall scenarios (and there was relatively few things that were "out there"; most were conventional instruments). I posted them because I was just listing off all the stuff I could find there.
And all those -at least the Downfall geared- dealt with a scenario at the end of the war, in an alternate end to it and were conventional. That's far different from giving the Russians electrotanks smack dab in the middle of a Moscow invasion in 1943.
And likewise, most of them being conventional and just more developed versions of already existing weapons that could have come about, I wouldn't call them "Secret Weapons". A few of them were Secret weapons type things, those were mostly posted simply because they met the qualifier of WW2 and I was presenting simply all the stuff I could find in that thread.
As I said, Alternate history is not Secret Weapons nor vice-versa. And there is a difference between the whacked out or unrealistic, and the realistic and plausible developments. The latter is good and that is what the weapons and devices out of that list I intended to deal with the Downfall scenario were meant for. The former is bad in this case at least.
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To clarify:
Secret weapons: any weapon (from rifle to mega tank), which has been designed at the time, but never got into mass production, or never got issued.
Alternate history: Can include the previous, but also more fictitious weapons. It also includes battles.
So alternate history is to look what might have happened, and Secret Weapons is simply to show off weapons that were never really built (real designs from the war, no fiction), or only prototypes.
Is this good for you?
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To clarify:
Secret weapons: any weapon (from rifle to mega tank), which has been designed at the time, but never got into mass production, or never got issued.
Alternate history: Can include the previous, but also more fictitious weapons. It also includes battles.
So alternate history is to look what might have happened, and Secret Weapons is simply to show off weapons that were never really built (real designs from the war, no fiction), or only prototypes.
Is this good for you?
Yes, but what I'm saying is that if you're dealing with a scenario where these "Secret Weapons" would actually be produced, I wouldn't consider them secret weapons. I mean, for arguments sake, having a Gremlin in a map set in 1944 is different from one set in 1946. With one, you alter the history of WW2, put in a thing that wasn't really there, and that I'd consider a "secret weapon". With the other, you only alter the end and have free reign from there and there is possibility. And realism of course comes into account. That's the issue with Downfall compared to many of these things. Some stuff may have come and would have come by then and it was a down the road in time type deal. With I believe all of these so far -outside of Invasion USA- you're dealing within the actual WW2 time frame so secret weapons there that weren't there would be far different from the former case of Downfall and bad in my opinion.
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I completely understand. ;D
So putting the Horten Ho229 in the battle of Britain is secret weapons (it wasn't designed yet, i know. it was just an example), but putting it in a scenario after BOB where germans won, is alternate history, but then the focus is not on the weapons, but on the setting.
Glad we see eye to eye at last.
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Glad we see eye to eye at last.
Well I'm not.
Need I remind you people of the awesome layout of FHSW? They had vehicles that saw extensive service, extremely important vehicles, improbable vehicles, Vehicles based off real designs set in fictional battles (Operation RatteTrap is focused on defeating the 1000 ton 'Ratte' LandKreuzer supertank, and is odly set in what looks like N. Africa.) They also had battles such as Downfall, mixing alt history, prototype design, and the name "Secret Weapons."
Go ahead. Take opposing sides. I enjoy watching your quarreling.
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i would like to see the FG42 MG version :D
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@DuFresne: I meant that we(Showa and I) see eye to eye on the terminology.
I myself would love to see a secret weapons mod too.
But I also like alternate history. However, I am not sure I will like to play the idea in a game. I guess I will only want that if there are some recognisable maps in there, like the white house and surroundings, or other famous landmarks.
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IMO Alternate History doesn´t work quite well without those fancy-schmancy toys that never made it into combat. Sure, some battles, like a Operation Sealion map would be nice, but seeing ideas that weren´t succesful in RL in action is also cool. And honestly I don´t know why FH2 shouldn´t portray them, too? (Of course not the Maus, because it saw combat ;))
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If only the BF2 Map Maker wasn't a unstable piece of garbage and was clean like Valve Hammer, then I would take the time to make a map or two =(
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IMO Alternate History doesn´t work quite well without those fancy-schmancy toys that never made it into combat. Sure, some battles, like a Operation Sealion map would be nice, but seeing ideas that weren´t succesful in RL in action is also cool. And honestly I don´t know why FH2 shouldn´t portray them, too? (Of course not the Maus, because it saw combat ;))
SW's are not essential to any of these as maps. As I have said before, having an "Alternate history" map set in a run of the mill woodland and being told "Oh, this is right outside Moscow so its alternate history" is boring. But there are many interesting environments and possible battles and scenarios beyond that and that woodland is the exception rather than the rule.
For example, the Japanese Invasion of Australia. You have Australia as the environment, which is unique for a number of factors, combined with the ANZACS vs. Japs and stuff going on in the ocean between battle ships, and the Japanese storming the beachheads and the utilization of gas warfare (the Australians were planning on using mustard gas and so forth against the Japanese; they were also planning on falling back from North Australia and regrouping in the South). Not a secret weapon in there.
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http://www.ironsky.net/site/ <-- UFOs eh? ;D
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If only the BF2 Map Maker wasn't a unstable piece of garbage and was clean like Valve Hammer, then I would take the time to make a map or two =(
Is not! Your just not awesome enough for the BF2 editor :P
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If only the BF2 Map Maker wasn't a unstable piece of garbage and was clean like Valve Hammer, then I would take the time to make a map or two =(
Is not! Your just not awesome enough for the BF2 editor :P
+10
BF2Editor is damn good.
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Another idea which I popped in here to address:
*Battle of Hawaii: Following Japanese victory at Midway, the Imperial Military makes its way to the west Pacific with the task of invading and occupying the US territory of Hawaii.
If I recall, it was the Japanese plan to invade Hawaii following Midway should they have won.
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Operation Valkyrie would be awesome nice battle between werhmact and SS troops (basically if hitler was assasinated :P
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On the subject of alternate history and not secret weapons, I would recommend reading The Moscow Option by David Downing http://www.amazon.com/Moscow-Option-David-Downing/dp/185367463X (http://www.amazon.com/Moscow-Option-David-Downing/dp/185367463X)
and Invasion: The German Invasion of England July 1940 by Kenneth Macksey http://www.amazon.com/Invasion-Alternate-History-German-England/dp/1853673617/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254025288&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Invasion-Alternate-History-German-England/dp/1853673617/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254025288&sr=1-1)
ON the subject of secret weapons I would recommend My Tank is Fight by http://www.somethingawful.com/booklist/index.htm (http://www.somethingawful.com/booklist/index.htm)
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Hitler dindt had plans to invade UK.. he later created these plans because UK didnt surrender.. after defeating France.
What about OP sealion?
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Hitler dindt had plans to invade UK.. he later created these plans because UK didnt surrender.. after defeating France.
What about OP sealion?
What he is saying is true.
Hitler tought the UK will surrender when France falls. He was wrong and he created Operation Seelowe.
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...which is what I'm making now. If i get good, ill make a whole minimod of the german invasion of america!
...and canada.
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You'd think if the Germans had enough strength to invade America they might have used a bit more on it on Russia.
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If there was going to be a custom invation of united States map, it needs some custom stuff...
Say a Statue of Liberty model or a 2D variant in the distance, higher storey buildings, American style buildings, etc...
But if it did happen, and was done well, it sure will be sweet - Street to strret fighting etc, same goes for Moscow... plus SNOW!!!
What I'd really like to see is come-back maps... A better alpenfestung, but that will require alot more vehicles, raod to Ramelle, actually based on the movie directly with areas actually looking like it did, and Reichsbahn... that can be done with what is there, only loss will be the self propelled howitzers; Wespe and priest
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i want a rheinuebung
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Operation Valkyrie would be awesome nice battle between werhmact and SS troops (basically if hitler was assasinated :P
Don't have to go alternate history for that. After the surrender Fallschirmjaeger troops were deployed to flush out pockets of fanatical SS-troops who refused to surrender.
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Operation Valkyrie would be awesome nice battle between werhmact and SS troops (basically if hitler was assasinated :P
Don't have to go alternate history for that. After the surrender Fallschirmjaeger troops were deployed to flush out pockets of fanatical SS-troops who refused to surrender.
I have been suggesting a map like this a long time. Brits and FJ vs Waffen-SS.
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Early Nazi party soldiers vs Weimar Republic Police = win
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Operation Felix? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix)
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Japanese marching across Sydney harbor bridge!
WOOT!
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Soviets attacking the Kummersdorf facility and facing the Maus. :D
Or maybe we can turn the story that Hitler escaped to New-Swabia in the Antarctis with the Hanebu where he and a group of loyal SS-guards plan to retake the Reich and live in a secret ice base. Then the Allies get to know of that plan and invade the fortress in 1946. Now THAT would be fun! ^^
omg yes perfect idea.
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Let's strafe the white house!! ;D
I would like america or Sealion.
It's very fun to invade the allied homeland!
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Nazi Invasion of Mexico, Texas...
Finnish Invasion of Michigan
Michiganian Secession
Michiganian Secession invasion of Europe...
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Germans fight their way inside the city of Moscow.
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Nazi Invasion of Mexico, Texas...
Finnish Invasion of Michigan
Michiganian Secession
Michiganian Secession invasion of Europe...
no to all of those
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But whay not? :-[
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Nazi Invasion of Mexico, Texas...
Since when is Mexico a city in Texas?
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perhaps I should have used a semicolon? I meant invasion of mexico or texas...though I'm sure you already knew that.
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perhaps I should have used a semicolon? I meant invasion of mexico or texas...though I'm sure you already knew that.
still aren't very good scenarios
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perhaps I should have used a semicolon? I meant invasion of mexico or texas...though I'm sure you already knew that.
Of course I did. Also, your post count is fluctuating wildly. Yesterday it was at 25-ish, then earlier today it was at 16, now it's at like 30...
Weird...
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If the Devs have to make Alternate Maps, i would go for something that COULD happen, like a Allied Last stand on the Normandy Beaches, a Battle for Moscow, a Battle for Bucharest, and possible maps, like Alpenfestung :D
I'd let maps like the invasion of america, a allied invasion in norway, and super fiction maps like these, to the fan mappers.
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that is odd. perhaps a bug from deleting my postcount or having me in another usergroup? I'm not sure myself. Flippy probably knows.
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American invasion of China. It was an alternate plan to Downfall, to invade China and use it as a base for a total blockade of Japan.
Russian invasion of Japan, as an adjunct to downfall.
For Whom the Bell Tolls, a map set in the Spanish civil war based on the Hemingway book. It would be pretty awesome, with villages and early war tanks and a huge canyon dividing the valley in two, as well as mountainy areas, such as the partisan camp and el sordo's last stand. It would be a bit like Cretan Village, except with more Spain.
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Japan Attacking the Soviet Union instead of the U.S.
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Ha, KV-1 vs. Ha-Go for the win.
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1946, New Swabia, Antarctica,
New Vehicle: Haunebu I, Haunebu II and Haunbeu III
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secret nazi base in antarctica where the breed supersoldiers and everyone wears FJ snow blindness goggles
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that is odd. perhaps a bug from deleting my postcount or having me in another usergroup? I'm not sure myself. Flippy probably knows.
You Deserve a Perma Ban, consider youself Lucky.
August Storm, Ha-Go vs Is2 x)
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secret nazi base in antarctica where the breed supersoldiers and everyone wears FJ snow blindness goggles
NO! more spam from Warior ::)
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A map that has the IS3, a map that has the M26.....Id like to see a remake of Alpenfenstung.. or how ever it was spelled..
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*Gasp* A map based on the axis of time trilogy! A few modern vehicles and soldiers vs. a huge number of WW2 vehicles and guns. We could possibly borrow stuff from PR if they agreed.
Alternatively, a map based on Turtledove's Worldwar series. Nazis vs. Aliens ftw!
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*Gasp* A map based on the axis of time trilogy! A few modern vehicles and soldiers vs. a huge number of WW2 vehicles and guns. We could possibly borrow stuff from PR if they agreed.
Alternatively, a map based on Turtledove's Worldwar series. Nazis vs. Aliens ftw!
WAIT WAIT WAIT, wasn't there a bf1942 mod about where Hussain went back in time and did this?
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Err, desert combat? I guess, if the coalition also went back in time to fight Hussein on the historic battlegrounds of WW2. Seems like a bit of a stretch of the imagination to me; I was just thrilled to kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SAW with my Abrams on El-Al. Su-25? BOOM! T-72? BOOM! Mi-24? BOOM! Never even slowed down, twas a glorious sight truly.
Yeah I don't think DC had time travel as a core gameplay mechanic.
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Nah it wasn't DC, I'll have to look it up in my mods folder tommorow
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How about there is a map where the allies have got this really advanced stuff but the Germans just have medieval weponary like horses and swords. I would play as the germans still anyway.
The good think about this sugestion is that nobody can claim axis bias
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How about there is a map where the allies have got this really advanced stuff but the Germans just have medieval weponary like horses and swords. I would play as the germans still anyway.
The good think about this sugestion is that nobody can claim axis bias
that would be boring
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How about there is a map where the allies have got this really advanced stuff but the Germans just have medieval weponary like horses and swords. I would play as the germans still anyway.
The good think about this sugestion is that nobody can claim axis bias
that would be boring
dude shutup, we're sharing our opinions and that one is his
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How about there is a map where the allies have got this really advanced stuff but the Germans just have medieval weponary like horses and swords. I would play as the germans still anyway.
The good think about this sugestion is that nobody can claim axis bias
that would be boring
dude shutup, we're sharing our opinions and that one is his
My opinion is that it would be boring. Period. Plus, I believe that the point of this thread is alternate history, not fantasy. For example, the Japanese invading Australia, a completely plausible scenario for the time, not the off balanced working of his mind. If we had a map like that, it would be a basic "rape" by the allies, and not a good map.
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Cuban invasion of US, canadian invasion of US, Japanese invasion of India, Russian invasion of china, Kelly's Heroes map (complete with gold! [GOOOOOOLD! YEHEHEHEHEHOO!! (http://www.yukondan.com/images/dan_bc_open_2007.jpg) ]).
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first two don't have much basis, but the other two are at least plausible
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How about there is a map where the allies have got this really advanced stuff but the Germans just have medieval weponary like horses and swords. I would play as the germans still anyway.
The good think about this sugestion is that nobody can claim axis bias
Haha.. that comment's worth a good laugh ;D Gotta admit it guys, just imagine..
But on-topic - I'm all AGAINST these maps - unless created by fans. I would rather have the devs put their effort and focus on real maps. This would be a nice project for fans, but please, let the devs focus on creating and expanding the theatres of war that actually existed. They can always still do this once FH2 is completed, but as we all know, that's a long way to go, and it will never really be 'finished' anyway. The existing theatres and battles are just more interesting because they happened and most people want to play, re-enact if you will, those.
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Attacks on U.S. soil with a few japanese submarines with japanese commandos against U.S. defenses!
Or using german helicopters similar to the osprey, and landing in london as german commandos like in My tank is Fight!
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well...that's pretty much the entire point of the thread, Gunther. ;)
Hmmm...Yeah, i kinda do wanna see operation downfall or the allies trying to destroy a secret german nuke base or somethnig.
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Sorry, if it was supposed to be a fan project please DISREGARD my part of the comment. :) Guess I kinda jumped on the gun there, I'm really protective of my precious FH2 devs! :P
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We all love 'em. when I'm traveling Europe, Im'a hug all of them
except flippy. handshakes are alright.