Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Battle of the Bulge => Feedback => Meuse River => Topic started by: Toddel on 16-07-2011, 22:07:38
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
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I liked this map right away -- the looks and feel, the flag lay out, the liberal use of ABC code, the heavy wooded hills mixed with an urban center.... The vehicle load out is great too. It's the one i've played the most from the new release and one very much needed tweak has become apparent after dozens of full server sessions:
Open up the buildings at the flags, especially Town Center, and Com HQ.
You can count on one hand the amount of buildings you can actually go inside of between these two flags, even though they are densely littered with buildings. This gives the map there a kind of fake, set piece feel instead of a real living map that can be interacted with. That may be the most important reason to give more buildings one can actually enter and use.
But moreover, there are 2 very significant impacts to game play as a result of there being no usable buildings.
1. Arty is overpowered on this map. There is nowhere to take cover, that tree won't help you anymore than that stone townhouse because you can't get inside it! I am spawnkilled by arty on this map almost constantly when fighting at the flags.
-People would be busting in windows and doors to use these buildings -- what happened to the destructible statics that you used to make use of? How about making most of the town locked up at first, but players can bust into the buildings? Just a random thought.
2. Because there is no where to hold up (other than a couple buildings that are flag locations and way too obvious to remain due to constant HE shells) everyone is always on the move on this map. This gives this map that willy nilly, ring around the rosey, flag chasing style of play instead of a more deliberate capture and hold feeling that you are trying to achieve through map creation. Flags will rise and fall on any map, but this one has no sense of battle lines and sustained firefights even though on paper it looks like it should -- why? Because there are no buildings to set up a command in and remain alive for any length of time.
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This might be my favorite of the new maps, but the artillery is, as Dago Red mentioned, quite overpowered due to the lack of cover.
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Yepp, correctly observed. The arty is unfortunately placed in mainbase unreachable for attackers, (can sit and spam in peace a whole round) will look at ways to improve this for next patch.
thx for reporting.
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@ Dago Red completly agree with everything you have said, open buildings would make the map much better.
I think on this map there are really quite a lot flak emplacements. And I think the emplacements are really enough to fight of that one plane that joins the fight in 1/4 of the rounds. So get rid of the Flakvehicles for BOTH teams.
The ONLY thing the American quat halftrack is doing is raping the inf at Farm or somewhere and the German Flakopel is useless as usual.
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I think plane should spawn on the bleed... Otherwise it plays minor role. Example - Americans lost totally the map, but Mustang spawned only once....
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Do you mean that the Mustang should spawn more often? Or should is just spawn earlier.
(Btw I dont think that the map should be changed because of one team getting shot right behind therer ABC line - Yes it happens and its horrible for the loosing team - but its really unusual.)
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Do you mean that the Mustang should spawn more often? Or should is just spawn earlier.
Both. If the Mustang/FW spawned when enemy has 3 flags it would appeared earlier and also more often.
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It's fine as it is now. Bulge isn't known for it's aerial combat, so there are already way more planes in the Bulge maps than there were during the battle.
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I have to say I share Slayers opinion. A plane more often and earlyier is not nessecary for gameplay reasons I think. Aliieds can still take out the KT with the M36 if there pushed to there ABC line, because of the woods.
And it is not a map where the team that is pushed back to there ABC line gets raped massivly.
And as Slayer mentioned it depicts the historical situation quite good.
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In the next patch there will be less tank/arty/AA raping and more focus on infantry fights in the town :)
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So the number of tanks has just been reduced in general? Less arrty? -> AWESOME! Less AA vehicles?-> AWESOME!
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AH !! That's a great news about Meuse River !! IMO this map was a pain for infantry. In town I could instant die 3 times in a row by 3 different way(tank, arty, grenade). I always found wierd that the battles in the city were dominated by tanks and arty.
But what kind of changes will make less arty/tank raping in town ?? Less tanks/arty in general ?? narrower streets or more objects in the street that will make heavier tanks having difficulty to drive around ??
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What? Less Shermans to kill? :'( :'( :'(
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Suggestion: reduce the number of panzerfaust kits on this map. Yesterday when I played, it was completely impossible to even get 200 meter out of the abc line in a sherman alive. Shermans' only chance is to use the forest in flanking positions but they are too easily picked off by infantry. Not even fun to play.
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First if you get shot by a Panzerfaust guy dont do the same thing again, take an other rout.
There are two options:
First team up with a squad that covers you flanks (since your flank are forests). The infantry can shot the Germans with there scary Panzerfausts and you even have a sqaud which helpts you to capture the flag you are attacking, instead of just standing 200 meters away from the flag a spawnrape! (Thats what 90% of 75mm Sherman drivers do, pretty pathetic)
The other option is to drive to a flag that is capped by your own team so you can fulfill the role that your (75mm) Sherman is actually disigned for - Support your infantry, instead of driving alone near teh forest.
Still of course it can happen that some sneaky, scary Panzerfaust Germans kills you out of nothing. But what did you expect on a map which is mostly coverd by forests and over 9000 halftracks.
Another point yes there are rounds where Shermans cant cross the ABC line, just as on Cobra, Goodwood, Eppeldorf etc. it happen. Sure not funny but its mainly because of imbalanced teams.
Instead of reducing the number of tanks on Meuse in generel, just drop some of the German tanks maybe Panther and the Jagdpanzer IV at the Farm and the Pnazer IV at Sawmill.
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Yep, this map is like Luttich; low on tactical options (ring around the rosey is correct).
It's more of a "who can hide in the bushes with a faust/zook" or "Axis armor takes 2-5 hits to kill," or swarm the flag until your squad runs off and you get swarmed."
The allied Tank Killer on this map is terrible - can't one shot the german medium/heavy panzers with any regularity - and the special armor piercing round is lacking. I thought this was supposed to be an improvement on the M10?
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The allied Tank Killer on this map is terrible - can't one shot the german medium/heavy panzers with any regularity - and the special armor piercing round is lacking. I thought this was supposed to be an improvement on the M10?
It kills kingtiger with one shot from front, like any other german tank. Maybe you are trying to shoot sides from bad angle and doing just minimal damage.
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Maybe on a good day it kills the King Tiger from the front - in a test lab when no one is firing back at you - at the right angle - at the right inclination, etc. Yes, in certain cases it can happen?
Back to my old point - axis Panther, Tiger, and variants don't require as much precise skill to take out any of the allied tanks on this Meuse map.
The allied Tank Killer on Meuse is about as fragile as the aluminum American tank in Battlefield Vietnam; and you're telling us that its fair because - if you get the angle perfect - the Tiger will go down? So while I'm trying to aim my best from a far distance; all the Tiger/88 shell has to do is shoot and point.
Allied Armor = aim very carefully - so that you hit the special pixels and get the correct special angles; otherwise advance, hide, don't get hit by faust in the bushes, and then hit the panzer from the side at a perfect angle. The Allied Tank Killer gets wasted all the time - when Tigers advance; less to do with angle and more to do with the King Tiger embolstering; I've tested it with guys several times: KT versus allied tank killer (where we both switched sides with no other distractions or heat of battle issues occurred).
Axis Armor = Point your frontal armor at allied armor, pray they don't hit the special pixel, and fire away killing with each shot (approximately 20% randomness/deflect failures or distance whimpering of shell velocity). Guys in panthers, tigers, stugs, etc. just sit on the battlefield and don't move but kill tons of folks (even though they have been hit over 5 times).
Seriously - have you seen any allied tank aces (in Normandy) that just go up on a hill - take 8 hits and survive - and kill all advancing medium/heavy panzers? It would be about the same small percentage as those who can hit the special pixel (on the front of Tigers) every time; doesn't happen much.
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But that's exactly the point of German tanks, people like them because they are better than allied equivalents. It's why people start clans with German names or play Germans exclusively. They have the good stuff.
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With the M36 (American Tank Killer), if you use the special AT ammo type (HVAP I think) it is pretty consistently a one shot kill to the KT frontal armor. You may have just been using the standard AP rounds? ???
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Standard AP with larger mm; yes - don't see real help with standard against heavy panzers
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The map is quite small and have lots of armour and artillery and I think it can be alittle too much if you're playing as infantry.
What I think is needed is more cover for infantry inside the town both especially the west side of the town where you just get killed every second or so with the constant artillery bombing and tank shells flying around.
And as I started with is the map small so I think it fits better with more focus on the infantry.
What i'm feeling right now is that there need to be some way to keep tanks outside of the central town and have tank battles at sawmill and farm(?) by having some clever debris on the roads leading to it, or maybe just remove that annoying artillery(rant!).
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Normally I can bust all the German tanks on this map with the Willy ;D, except the KT.
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I understand the change about the flag layout, its a good idea and it certainly makes a better fight for the infantry. About yes you are right this map really lacks something nowa days without all the tanks.
It was to hard for the allies to stop the german tanks, but I think a littel reduction of German armor would have solved the problem. This could have been to drop the Panther from the german base and also remove the tanks spawnig at captured command post, such as the jagspanzer IV at the farm which was never needed. The Allies on the other hand could use there extra tanks at the command posts very well.
By the way did the Allies also lose their jumbo :( ?
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The new map layout feels completely different now, I miss the King Tiger and Jagdpanther; the arty got annoying sometimes but at least it gave you the ability to break through some heavy resistance or getting rid of those stonwall-camping guys at the river.
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If I recall correctly the major changes on this map are the removal of the ABC line in favor of an increased death zone, so you cant get as close to the enemys main as before. Also there is new accessible space ontop of teh cliffs west of the western road. Also there is another Flagadded to the city.
Further more thre are less tanks in general. I think the Jagspanther is still there, even the KT is still there but ONLY when the Germans Lost all Flags.
The Allies have less Shermans fore sure. I think no more Jumbo, but two M36 instead.
Okay there changes are certainly far from being complete, correct me if a got something wrong.
I really like the added falg there is definitly enough space for it, it adds a lot to the city fighting just as many of us asked for!
What bothers me are those Two M36, I ahve know idea why the allied team needs them. The Kt spawns only n a certain situation and the allies always get there tow M36. Nowadays you almost see asmuch M36s as Sherman when you defend the Farm. Maybe its different when defending other outposts, but number if M36 you have to deal with is generally far to hight. I am pretty sure theere is no historical background for having that much tankdestroyers there. And again no ganeplay reason I could think of. replacing one of those with a 76mm Sherman again would be totally fine, its enough to counter the Jagppanther/Panther.
What also bothers me is the space west ontop of the cliffs above the road. Of course the tanks could get killed often by German infantry on the road, but as I stated in pre 2.45 time they could team up with a spquad or drive to already capured falgs, do what a Sherman is designed for, supporting infantry! No the tanks are mostly on the cliffs and they can get to far away from the road, infantry no has to sit back looking at the camp fest between the tankers of bowth sides driving around the cliffs. Also the allied tanks can easiely rape the German spawn from there which is probably the worst thing of them all, while the german infantry is out of range to get the tanks down. The situation with two M36s camping the farm while making no attempt to cap i happens far tooften lately!
I would close this area completly again or atleast close it caompletly when the allied tanks arrive at the farm.
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I don't the idea with spawns on the cliffs - it's often impossible to get to the town back because someone is camping and killing those poor guys who can be seen like on the open hand...
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I think this map needs a change to the starting point maybe place the Germans on the small out crop and try to advance across the bridges and fight over the bridges.
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2.46 changelog for Meuse River 64
According to the will of the people, the map got reverted to its 2.4 state with 4 capture-able flags layout with the following additional changes:
- Removed all artillery except for the mortars.
- The Americans get reinforced by the M36 (in addition to the plane) if the Germans control all the flags.
- Added the common Willys to the Americans (in addition to the rocket one).
- The Germans get reinforced by the King Tiger (in addition to the plane) if the Americans control all the flags.
- Winter skins for all vehicles.
- Slightly moved some spawn points at City Hall to prevent spawn raping from the other side of the river.
Minimap for reference:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2dhafj5.jpg)
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i like this map because its fairly balanced i think.american zook is stronger as faust so there is no problem to take axis panzers.its very fun with crowded server
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No aircraft appeared after the Germans captured all the bases on singleplayer. Is this a bug? 2.48
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2.5 changelog for Meuse River 64
- New M36B1 replaced the M36 Jackson in the Allied main base.
- The G43 rifleman kit is now unlimited.
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The Quad 50 at Farm.
Remove (or reduce respawn time of) the Quad 50 at Farm flag or change spawnlocation of US army there.
US soldiers spawn right in front the Q50.
Seen so many times that axis use the Q50 as a rape platform when the Farm is in US hands. Leads to unnecessary discussion and player drops.
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hmmmm,
Could move the player spawns but there's prob no better place to put them.
Could move the Quad 50 back into the woods more so it can't rape the spawn points, but it needs a good field of fire. The quad 50 is there in case Axis get planes. iirc Germans get a Flakvierling at the sawmill as a mirror balance so I wouldn't want to take it away entirely.
EDIT:
Moving the Quad 50 would fuck up the specific texture work that was put there (dirt instead of snow to show that it's walked on a lot) and also the statics (boxes etc...) that were placed around it to give it atmosphere.
This map has single player so idk if this is possible w/o fucking up the Nav mesh, but I'd suggest adding statics and adjusting the terrain slightly;
(https://i.imgur.com/2RVvByB.jpg)
I wonder if there’s also a way to tie the AA guns to spawn ONLY when the other team gets planes.
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Is it possible to not give it unlimited ammo?
Or only ammo when the FW190 spawns? Or only ammo / spawn of Q50 when holding all flags by US?
Reduce (re)spawn time of Q50 at all....
Ehhh Im not sure If the Q50 spawn if US hold all 4 flags, or when US just have the Farm flag.
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I think it would be best to tie it to spawn only when the axis planes spawn. Same with the flak. That should be possible.