Author Topic: Revolting Uniting  (Read 305375 times)

Offline Turkish007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3840 on: 03-08-2013, 00:08:58 »
Last day of fasting  8)

Offline Korsakov829

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3841 on: 03-08-2013, 03:08:28 »
I thought it didn't end until 6 days from now? But in case I'm wrong, eid mubarak to you and everyone else!

Offline Turkish007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3842 on: 03-08-2013, 04:08:10 »
Its Laylat-Al-Qadr, so its the last AFAIK.

Offline Korsakov829

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3843 on: 03-08-2013, 07:08:55 »
My calendar says it's the 26th of Ramadan, 1434 but that's over here but Laylat al-Qadr is never on the last day, 29th at the most as I've read.
« Last Edit: 03-08-2013, 15:08:47 by Korsakov829 »

Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3844 on: 03-08-2013, 17:08:37 »
For as far as i know (heard + calendar), it's only thursday ramadanfest
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3845 on: 03-08-2013, 19:08:04 »
It's Thursday here. Tomorrow people will still be fasting.

Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3846 on: 04-08-2013, 02:08:16 »
I read some things in other threads i had questions about, but didn't want to get off-topic there. Yet i want more of a discussion on the answers where people just tell their opinions than real Q&A like the Questions thread.

Anyway:

I read about Rommel how you keep changing your view on him when you learn more about him.
I'm personally in the stage now of seeing him as a decent general, who had some successes, and was then glorified to heaven by propaganda after which he would make fail after fail taking away the plumes he earned before (by way of speaking).

And secondly, i read people making Hitler responsible for 50 000 000 deaths. I personally don't fully agree since a war was comming sooner or later after the French felt the need to humiliate and extort Germany to stoneage at the treaty of Versaille. Hitler was just the "right" guy at the "right" time (at least how i see it now). And a few millions of the killings is also caused by allied attrocities that got covered up later. The Shoa is in my opinion entirely to blame on Hitler since there were Antisemetic feelings in Europe, but i can't imagine it would escalate to massmurder without the nazis. That said, eastern front was a decision made by Hitler, but even there i wonder if it wasn't something that would happen sooner or later. I believe communism was to get head-on with with western visions with Hitler his Great-Germania-madness serving as catalisator. In the cold war, i think there would have also been a WWIII if it wasn't for the nukes and the accompanying MAD doctrine.

PS: i'm no nazi or Hitler/Rommel fanboy, i'm also no communist, i just want to get a more correct view on things than i have now, since i know that most of you know a lot more about these persons than i do and i believe getting you opinions on it will enlighten further me on these topics. Thanks in advance!
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Offline Korsakov829

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3847 on: 04-08-2013, 05:08:41 »
Opinions? Ok.

Fascism is bad, Communism is good, and all of Europe should have been annexed by us Soviets! Maybe the Americas too, that'd be nice.
I somewhat believe a holocaust of that magnitude was going to happen in Europe at one point in history, and such things are going to keep on happening as they have for more than two thousand years.
I think Rommel was a decent general, certainly not an all-rounder, but Hitler kept him right in the thick of it and his enemies just became too familiar with him.
The cold war isn't over.
Treaty of Versailles was just... mean.
Nukes are awesome, they can destroy much of the USA at the cost of your homeland but it becomes more and more worth it every day.
Hitler was a fucking asshole, great Stalin knew what he would try to do so he closed the distance to buy us time with the invasion of Poland.
Actually, all fascists I can think of were assholes.
In fact, most people on the right are assholes.
Those bad guys need to be stopped... damned racists. They'll force religious views on you, kill you for supporting equal rights, persecute people for being free, etc.
Hitler wasn't entirely responsible for 50,000,000 deaths... though I bet that fuck was damned proud of himself.
What really pisses me off is that his moustache has become taboo. I mean come on, I know a few people who'd look good with it.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3848 on: 04-08-2013, 08:08:07 »
There is no correct view on it, since point of views will be influenced heavily by one's opinion. I personally viewed Rommel as decent military commander due to his proven effectiveness in leading blitzkrieg and apolitical stance. But his reputation is overblown amongst newbies, which opinions shouldn't be taken seriously, as we all knew better.

That being said, many also criticize how he lacks in supplies management skills, provisions for managing prolonged warfare.

And then, there is the bias, since Rommel mostly fought Britain and USA on Western front, which is heavily documented and reported. Meanwhile, all in the eastern front, censorship and the massive scale of death has become common, but the real WW2, if you look at numbers and plot them in charts, happens in the Eastern front. The spilled blood flows like a river there, while all we got from Western front is a nice comprehensive story from each individuals who actually fought there and lived to tell it directly to the public.


And on Hitler:
Every big bad figures are like that. A failed artists turned into soldier and then the leader of mass-murdering regime. Sounds like a story? How about a robber, petty criminal gang, turned into high-ranking politburo member, and then paranoid dictator?

Can you blame the guy if he grew up seeing: a country which fought fair and well, but once asking for armistice, was humiliated to oblivion and turned into rubble. Then there is a country in the east, long forgotten with super poor infrastructure and poor people, yet some of the elites are still acting as if they are ruling their land equally well with those in the West, where people can actually fill their stomach and do a holiday once a year.

Anyway, don't forget that Nazism is also left-leaning. Afterall, they are Nationalist-SOCIALIST. It is just they have slightly different view from Stalin's centralist communism, and much different from Trotsky's international communism.

Offline |7th|Nighthawk

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3849 on: 04-08-2013, 10:08:12 »
Korsakov, you seem to be as tolerant as the people you are describing. Plus, Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was not any better than the Treaty of Versaille, so I don't know whether they have the right complain. I am pretty sure though that this humiliation really took a big part in launching WWII.
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Offline Lightning

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3850 on: 05-08-2013, 12:08:07 »
I read about Rommel how you keep changing your view on him when you learn more about him.
I'm personally in the stage now of seeing him as a decent general, who had some successes, and was then glorified to heaven by propaganda after which he would make fail after fail taking away the plumes he earned before (by way of speaking).
What fails would that be?

Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3851 on: 05-08-2013, 13:08:34 »
First day of work at a super market. That was easy.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3852 on: 05-08-2013, 16:08:05 »
I read about Rommel how you keep changing your view on him when you learn more about him.
I'm personally in the stage now of seeing him as a decent general, who had some successes, and was then glorified to heaven by propaganda after which he would make fail after fail taking away the plumes he earned before (by way of speaking).
What fails would that be?

Must be the German setbacks at North Africa. But he did not make "series of failures," because he did won some of the retreating battles. Like I said, it is difficult to say that he is a bad commander. Since he is indeed a good military commander. He just can't see the whole situation, which is panned by most of his critics. Even my favourite of the Germans, Kesselring, criticized Rommel about the supply route along the Mediterranean being vulnerable to British air raids from Malta. Hitler was not in favour of his situation. He did fail in Normandy, but that was highly predictable. He also failed to defend Tunisia, but that is also predictable.

Offline Mayhemic.MAD

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3853 on: 05-08-2013, 17:08:42 »
Regarding Rommel, I would say that he was clearly a great tactical leader but not so much a strategical leader.

In Africa he clearly failed to realize the importance of capturing Tobruk first (instead he went for Mechili) and when he did, he tried much too often to take with his guns blazing frontal assault tactics. Those worked well against unsuspecting enemies like the French and Italians in WW1, or the French again in the battle for France, but not against the NZ troops defending heavily fortified Tobruk.
According to David Irving, he failed to see how important it is to properly coordinated Luftwaffe and Heer. A lot of aerial attacks went ahead without being used instantly, so he sacrificed a lot of good soldiers on ill prepared assaults.

Blaming Rommel for the Logistic problems in Africa is not ok, imho. They were caused by the allied decoding the German Enigma messages and no one realized that. He mentioned the necessity for them often enough. The main reason the allied could destroy the supplies so easily was the failed capture of Malta, again something that Rommel can´t be blamed for.

Tunisia was not his command alone. He merely put himself into acion there, causing conflicting strategies between him and Arnim, who was official commanding the army in Tunesia.

Later in Normandy, Rommel tried often to get the Panzer divisions under his command and always pledged to get them near the coast, because he knew that movement would be pretty much impossible after the invasion started. Rommel can´t be blamed much here I think, basically his Chief of Staff Hans Speidel and his Supply Staff Chief worked against his him, to prevent a Germany victory.
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #3854 on: 05-08-2013, 17:08:24 »
Another thing Rommel underestimated was Malta. Rommel wanted Malta but never got the proper approval for attacking it. I believe an airborne operation simular to Crete would have been able to take the Island. Altough again, Losses would be very high

The damage done was very extensive. Italy lost almost 3/4 of its merchant fleet and Germany 1/4th of its MTO merchant fleet.Not to mention 450 unreplacable aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(World_War_II)#Axis_shipping_losses
if you look at this..man all those lives lost trapped in a boat..
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