Author Topic: Why SP?  (Read 2234 times)

Offline Zoologic

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Why SP?
« on: 23-01-2010, 09:01:44 »
The essence of Battlefield games are MPs. It was designed specifically to be played online, for people who are connected to the internet or people who are gathering together in a LAN party. The concept of SP-gaming in Battlefield games are fading with each releases of subsequent titles. I noted that BF2 is the worst of them all. They have the least SP maps, and let alone SP support.

Why SP?

Elite MPers say they don't really need SP, because a lot of things, and most of the reasons revolve around the limited AI capability in offering them real challenge posed by opposing human players. Even Project Reality mod created their own Training Server, making their training environment in MP basis. Forgotten Hope simply doesn't have enough resource or let alone, big enough player basis just to do that. Most of the times, there are only 3-5 servers in western world (and 2 in east) filled with enough players to make a good game.

FH players simply say, the SP is there for newbies to train and professionals to hone their skills. That is not entirely true. The dev's statement isn't much different either, just more sensitive towards those with less better internet connection. It is there "to cater the SPers" player base. Perhaps it was meant to enlarge FH2 community, reaching aging population who rarely get the chance to enjoy fast-paced MP games, it may even potentially attract WW2 veterans.

OK, So What's In It for Us?

We all always feel that FH2 creates a giant awesome step forward in Battlefield 2 game modification. When we saw the Normandy landscape at first, we were overwhelmed with astonishment. The game was so thoroughly crafted to produce such a beautiful in-game presentation. There are so much immersion in the game apart from its physical component glitch.

Single Player games, instead of MP offers you more scenario-ed gameplay, it offers you different story, it can potentially creates deeper immersion. Stay away from human players, especially 'pubbies' who often exploit bugs, glitches, do weird actions, for their own amusement, you'll only find bots who will play by the rules. They won't lash at you, show-off their awesomeness, or even displaying stupid act just for the show. The only thing that beat the experience is coordinated gameplay like tournaments, which is the most you can get from FH2.

I hope then we can get better support and attention. A lot of SP games out there receives huge attention, HL2 mods, Command & Conquer title mods, etc. They are all SP games, but they are hugely popular.

The Very Basic Problem

This was the problem that is bugging most FH2 SPers. Since the game is mostly designed on MP basis and little SP thought, and by default, the bots are only optimized for 16-sized maps. It means that they are designed to be just as good as they are in smallest maps. Hence, you see a many problems regarding their behavior in intricately-designed maps such as Fall of Tobruk, where they leave the main base entirely to advance deeper in the city by spawning inside them. Smaller maps has fewer flag post and the distance between flags are closer, thus chance you will encounter this problem is little.

It may because of EA's cutting cost effort by reducing the AI development cost. But it is not important now, because we are in it! And i don't know anything about modding the AI codes. All i know about BF2 AI is making navmesh out of a map. It raises question regarding the AI-coding works that are mod-able:

  • Can we really tune the bot behavior besides achieving the result by modifying their interaction with objects (guns, vehicles, statics), which i reckon, LegionDcX is doing?
  • Are the behaviors are hard-coded in the game engine, which is un-mod-able? Or does tweaking it is not allowed by EA or simply making the game unstable/becoming a major change?

Then we can understand better, and suggest more do-able suggestions.
« Last Edit: 24-01-2010, 05:01:52 by ZooMotorpool »

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #1 on: 23-01-2010, 12:01:10 »
...It is there "to cater the SPers" player base. Perhaps it was meant to enlarge FH2 community, reaching aging population who rarely get the chance to enjoy fast-paced MP games, it may even potentially attract WW2 veterans...
This reminded me of a post about the BF2SP64 mod over on the BFSP forum...
Quote
Just wanted to say a big "THANK YOU" to all that have put this mod together.
At 7 decades old, I don't play to much online. But I still enjoy the game from
my old " 52nd Combat Group" clan days...

...Thanks again to all the people who have put this mod together. Has really helped me
the last few years. Should have come by and told you sooner.

RAH
- http://www.battlefieldsingleplayer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6233&st=180

BTW, you should've posted this in General Discussion (more people would see it ;)).

Offline Kubador

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #2 on: 23-01-2010, 12:01:24 »
Nice post. If you'd like to know the limits of BF2 AI check AIX mod, those guys squeezed a lot from bots performance yet, sadly, they still are dumb.

Offline djinn

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #3 on: 23-01-2010, 13:01:23 »
Well, that might not be entirely true

Alot of AI has to do with situational handling and not just what vehicles bots can use well, how well the map is pathmapped and how agressive bots are

Don't forget, AIX is more about fun than warfare. FH2 is more about teamwork

LeagionX mentioned wanting to make bots realize stronger and weaker threats - If I understood him well, that will mean, not all tanks will be IDed as tanks, but based on their varying strengths. Its a bit far in the future I imagine, but it certainly makes for a different line of thought for FH2 AI than AIX

And I think FH2 bots have alot more unconventional toys to play with than AIX



Offline Zoologic

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #4 on: 24-01-2010, 05:01:19 »
Thank you mates,

I just feel like encouraging SP modifiers to dare modifying further. It is okay for us to have different SP map settings than the original MP one.

Let's take cannonfodder's suggestion for Fall of Tobruk for example. He suggested that after the Germans have penetrated deep into the cities, the vehicles should have just spawned inside (for example in "Mussolini Plaza"). So we can experience the German combined-arms blitzkrieg crush when playing as the British and for the Germans, an experience being in motorized troops unit advancing deep into the town. That is great idea. We can make SP games to tell the story how the FH2 developers wanted it to be (especially the historical researchers). When the MP aspect sucks up all of the developers' resources by adjusting this "German bias" "Allied bias" etc etc, which in the end would make the game less and lesser realistic in historical point of view. We can be as realistic as we want in SP.

So, in the end, the SP FH2 games are not just another "sandbox arena" or "play with idiot bots" type of game. A lot of MPers would be more happy if the SP can offer them something different. Because then they won't feel like downloading Gigabytes of .rar files just to have a couple hundred of Megabytes wasted for SP stuffs, which they would never use.

And my suggestion for SP developers: Should tweak more the "GamePlayObjects.con" files for SP or Coop game modes. It is entirely fine to experiment more with these things. Like moving the spawnpoint of some vehicles, moving the flags. We can always rely on Taranov or VM for reality check on that.

Offline 9.Pz-Div. Günther

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #5 on: 24-01-2010, 06:01:26 »
In my opinion, SP is a lost cause. Too many maps, all with different vehicles, objects, priorities, roles all need to be distributed and waypoints set, and then the AI itself needs fixing. Often the enemy won't fire you - or hit you - unless he's right in front of you. Often they get stuck or don't move at all. A shame, because only in SP you can really play 'real' battles where everyone charges eachother, instead of trying to pinch eachother off of the horizon from a safe spot.

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #6 on: 24-01-2010, 07:01:05 »
We can always rely on Taranov or VM for reality check on that.

Haha, wewt  ;D

And for me personally, I sometimes do like to unwind by blasting some bots.  Some of my best FH2 experiences have actually been doing LAN games with a couple close friends, humans on one side, the rest of the server filled with bots on the other side.  It can be loads of fun.  Also, I find it useful for practice for when they change aspects of the game, for testing new weapons, etc....  Usually I spend time at least once a day just making sure I don't get rusty, especially when, as now, I can't be in MP during the day.

Offline cannonfodder

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #7 on: 24-01-2010, 08:01:31 »
...Often the enemy won't fire you - or hit you - unless he's right in front of you. Often they get stuck or don't move at all...
The bots do suffer from tunnel-vision, but if there not hitting you, turn the difficulty up. With it set to 1.0, I've had bots at the limit of my vision kill me with MP40's.

Another problem is none of the maps were designed for SP. Many of them don't work (even if they do) for various reasons.

The bots will always be simple-minded gun-toting zombies, they just need a zombie-friendly map...

Offline djinn

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #8 on: 24-01-2010, 08:01:32 »
We don't have the benefit of stock maps like FH1. Here, we need bots coded from scratch - Pathampping, vehicle-operation and tactics

Its still a WIP. But its getting there. And BF2 has alot more potential for it bots than FH1. A FH1 bot will never have been able to use a sticky bomb, or C4 in the fashion BF2 bots can. Bots in BF2/Fh2 navigate narrow staircases with ease compared to FH1 bots who just couldn't get it right and couldn't distinquish height above ground. FH2 bots will try to free themselves from areas once they get stuck or suicide if they can't, FH1 bots will just stay until YOU kill them. Bots can fire on the move and communicat enemy positions. And these are only a few of the many things the new engine permits.

For me, the fact that bots play more WW2-style than humans is enough compensation for any lack

Having tanks charge through the bocage at goodwood's railroad (When they do get it right) and blasting away at each other from across the map is enough joy for me.

Having an MGer stand in position and blaze away at anyone that comes over the dike in PHL or see aircrafts braving flak to strafe infantry just makes me happy and hold in there longer, knowing that with a few more tweaks, I would have a little less reason to suffer the high PING on pubby servers and the often haphazard game-style or pubbies

Yer sure, you can pick em off from range, but now they can pick you off too. The bots fly fighters better thna most human pilots ingame and this is fact. I don't know many who ca strafe accurately on most servers without ploughing themselves into the ground. bot Planes are also deadly adversaries in the sky and although more likely to give you a fighting chance, will doggedly chase you matching you turn for turn unlike their FH1/BF42 counterparts who just couldn't keep up.

Tanks still have a way to go, but I already see signs of change shimmering over the horizon, with bodies of tanks standing at range and firing me in Gazala, forcing me ot manouever to try and pick them off one at a time - Or in Bardia 64 beta, where Italian tanks are notorious for stopping an advance across the bridge..

You see, unlike humans bots are unaware of the weakenesses of what they drive and will fight light armour as viciously as they would have were there in a Tiger II. There certainly is a way to go yet, but I have seen larger numbers of people asking about SP-COOP after 2.2 and 2.25, meaning like Forum lurkers, there are those just waiting for SP to get good

We have really talented SP coders and I'm convinced they can pull this one through - Its a wait for sure, and until they are done, they are not - But for some of us, some who have no choice but SP, and some who do, but STILL choose the simplicity of bots over the randomness of human players, we are here to stay

and are happy to see it through to the battle-hardened-bot end :-)
« Last Edit: 24-01-2010, 09:01:43 by djinn »

Offline TheLotusEater

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #9 on: 27-01-2010, 01:01:11 »
my aspirations for singleplayer are exactly the same as yours djinn, what with the tanks standing their ground instead of mindlessly charging in and infantry manning stationary weapons effectively, plus planes making a difference in the scheme of things makes for a great alternative to the chaotic nature of mp where players usually have their own agendas vs the overall goal of the battle.

I'm definitely wanting sp to get good and am eagerly awaiting any ai enhancements that will come cuz there just isnt anything else like it out there. It's Battlefield with intense, strategically-dynamic, open-ended battles whenever you want!  :o  Anyway just best of luck to you ai coders out there making a difference and adding another dimension to this great mod. ;)
Load the sixpounder!

Offline anglosaxon

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #10 on: 27-01-2010, 18:01:34 »
Well i like the bots in game for when I play coop via Lan.  Theres nothing quite like you and nine mates on one team versus 30+ bots set to aggressive maniacs.  Makes Left for Dead look tame!!  :)

Offline Medavelvan

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #11 on: 18-02-2010, 00:02:41 »
Single player support is an important and useful element.

Some of us (like myself) don't always have a stable or fast enough internet connection to play online games, and second - co-op support is useful for LAN games where a handful of human players can play against an army of AI bots - one of my favorite ways to play - There's just something special about "beating the machine" when outnumbered 4-1 with 100 bots!

Even with online play, bot support is useful for filling in half-empty servers etc during the slow times of day when everyone is at work or school.

Online play is certainly the greatest fun, but it's nice to have alternatives.
Explore all the worlds beyond the Sea of Dreams.

Offline bitje

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #12 on: 16-05-2010, 19:05:51 »
When ones comes at a certain age (next month I will be 72 years old) Multiplay is far too fast, and I will be killed instantly. Youngers do react much faster.
I hate games with a time pressure like COD MW2.
In BF2, one can work in its own tempo.

Sometimes, one forgets to shoot, when one looks at the amazing realistic detailed scenery around.
Even the ivy against walls is waving.

So please keep supporting the maps for SP.

Offline djinn

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #13 on: 16-05-2010, 20:05:29 »
Thanks for the support, sir

It really motivates me to hear people talk this way, and THIS is why I am a SinglePlayer-lobbyist

There are new maps and soon there will be a 2.26 compatible bot-support mod. Let's see if we can add more singleplayer maps to the collection... *nudges Remick hard*
« Last Edit: 16-05-2010, 20:05:06 by djinn »

Offline au_markie_mark

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Re: Why SP?
« Reply #14 on: 29-05-2010, 04:05:51 »
I'm one of those rare people that plays alot more SP than MP.  I only do MP twice a year when I get together with friends for a LAN party and they prefer BF2 with SP64 mod so we can fill out the teams with bots.

Sometimes I play all my WW2 FPS games in order taking a historical journey through WW2. I discovered FH2 last Christmas and I've added FH2 SP to my list WW2 games. I read the map list and it's disappointing sometimes to fire up the SP game only to find a particular map is MP only.

The bots can be frustrating on the larger maps where they spawn a long way from the enemy and then don't seem to be interested in moving to the front quickly, but sometimes they do well. I upgraded to 2.26 last weekend and played Point du Hoc and it was great to advance through the level with bots fighting at your side with more cohesion than my mates on a LAN day.

Anyway a big thank you to the team that put FH together. It must be huge amount of work to put this together. I look forward to advances on the SP front but I realise that FH2 is primarily a MP game.