Panzer III on Kursk

[THeTA0123]

The turret was to small, and adding a new turret proved difficult

They then decided to switch the PZIV and PZIII their role's

The Panzer IV became the main fighting tank for fighting other tanks
While the Panzer III became the infantery support one

[silian]

Since nobody of my mates wanted to go out yesterday(all have interms) i stayed home. After a while, i got myself into reading an big article of the Battle of Kursk (The entire operation)

After alot of reading, i read that Panzers III, Panzers IV, Panthers and tigers where the main german tank on Kursk

Now i first thought that those Panzers III where probaly Ausf N, but then i found this picture



I to be honest, cannot recall that ausf, maybe L?

Does anyone know what type's of Panzers III where used in kursk? And how much did they made up for german tank strength?

Judging by the idler wheel and drive sprocket it's an Ausf.H, it's a Regimental command tank, so likely a Pz.Bef.Wg.III Ausf.H.

[Schneider]

Anyone can give some info on how they performed there?
Seen in relation of course, i.e. how worthy was their contribution, where they quite worthless, did they add a lot in their given fields of tasks etc.?

[VonMudra]

But really, no, I don't think so. The turret was too small, and you couldn't fit in a bigger turret.

Bingo.  It was only really ever made to support the 50mm, the 37mm being used at first due to army insistence that it have compatible ammo with the Pak36.  Fitting the short 75mm was basically pushing the design to the very limits.

[sn00x]

Was it the same 75 as the F1?

[VonMudra]

Yep.

[9.Pz Kreuzer]

Most of the approx. 2500 tanks and assault guns Germany scratched together for Operation Zitadelle did not come straight from the factories as the quite few Panthers and Ferdinands, that broke down anyway , it was taken from all other places and reserves to reach those numbers and that resulted in a very high number of the obsolete Panzer III's in different versions.
Example:
2.SS Division Das Reich numbers in the time for Operation Zitadelle:
Pzkpfw II: 1
Pzkpfw III (long): 62
Pzkpfw IV (long): 33
Pzkpfw VI: 14
Pzkpfw T-34(r): 25
10 Befehls (probably Pzkpfw III's)
Source: Waffen-SS Divisions 1939-45 by Chris Bishop

You can see that one of the strongest units at Kursk was made up mostly by Panzer III and captured T-34's
There was nothing like these mighty "panzerkeils" with Tigers, Panthers and Panzer IV's, like some Documentries claims. I'm not gonna mention any names...

[THeTA0123]

So in theory, if we ever see another migthy eastfront, with Kursk as a map, the composition would be

40% panzer III
30% Panzer IV
10% tigers/panthers
20% others

Seems fairly reasonable

[Ts4EVER]

So in theory, if we ever see another migthy eastfront, with Kursk as a map, the composition would be

40% panzer III
30% Panzer IV
10% tigers/panthers
20% others

Seems fairly reasonable

If I was doing the map: yes

[9.Pz Kreuzer]

So in theory, if we ever see another migthy eastfront, with Kursk as a map, the composition would be

40% panzer III
30% Panzer IV
10% tigers/panthers
20% others

Seems fairly reasonable

Yes.
Depends though if you make a map that you want to cover the whole battle of the southern flank or if you specify your map to a special time and area of the battle because tanks like Tigers and Panthers was never spread out over all units and the whole front.
Tigers for example usually fought under "Schwere Panzer-Abteilung" units that often was used as firebrigade were the hardest fightings took place which means the amount of % Tigers increased at those areas, other units but those that had Tigers was 1.SS 2.SS 3.SS and Grossdeutschland Division.
I think they had about 1 company (14-15) each on paper during 1943, operational numbers at any given time was of course lower.

[Mazz]

The Panzer IV could barely fit the KwK40 in the turret, that's why its mantlet was never uparmored like the front hull in the transition from the F to the G.

[hOMEr_jAy]

One Panzer 2?
I Wonder what madman pressed that more than obsolete tank into the Battle of Kursk? In what role was it used, does anyone have more Info about it? (Poor fellas who were Stuck with it btw...)

[VonMudra]

Probably recon/convoy escort.  Def not a combat tank

[Thorondor123]

Panzer II's were used as observation post vehicles even during then Marked Garden.

[THeTA0123]

Oh the sweet Panzer II Luchs