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Forgotten Hope 2 => Feedback => General => Topic started by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 20:12:39

Title: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 20:12:39
As the title states. Can you make sure that 250 bullets of a static mg, or a controlled deployed one not hit the exact same spot?

Same with flak. Lack of spread with them makes them look and act effectively weightless.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 22-12-2014, 20:12:03
They can but there is no point. Suppression has no effect and everything else 1s1k anything.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 20:12:20
I don't understand why there is no point. Spread is not only tied to suppression. Having to crawl before shooting makes the weapon be effective on too little occasions anyway.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 22-12-2014, 20:12:59
MG is for setting up ambushes and killing loads of people with an auto rifle. This isn't PR.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 21:12:48
So all my bullets need to make the same hole on a wall a hundred meters away. What are you on about?
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Slayer on 22-12-2014, 21:12:57
You are exaggerating. An MG does have spread and certainly doesn't "make the same hole on a wall a hundred meters away".
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 22:12:06
And is there anything wrong with it? I've witnessed some absurd situations where the static guns would hit the exact same spot while going full auto. Sure, the infantry mg42 has a tiny kickback with no spread, which a moron can control, but some unattended assets are being understated issues for the gameplay fluency, especially the flaks.

I suggest you check the static machine guns and deployed versions of the infantry machine guns before stating that my point is wrong.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 22-12-2014, 22:12:54
This is a small and sensible concern, if you mean to go against me just to follow the tradition don't go for it.

Anyway, this is it from me tonight. No point in arguing or discussing what if's over this, if the devs want to do it then they'll do it, if they don't they won't.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Roughbeak on 22-12-2014, 23:12:29
The devs have far more important (and super fun) things up ahead that need to get fixed.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 22-12-2014, 23:12:32
What makes you think these machine guns were inaccurate?
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: jan_kurator on 23-12-2014, 01:12:04
I've witnessed some absurd situations where the static guns would hit the exact same spot while going full auto. Sure, the infantry mg42 has a tiny kickback with no spread...
Static guns are fixed to the surface they're on what makes them much more accurate than their handheld versions (which have spread btw) because recoil is not a big problem with them. Dunno what your intensions are but adding bigger spread to italian planes' .50cal MGs during beta stages of 2.45 made them much more deadly as with high rate of fire you don't even have to aim properly anymore, because you spray larger area with bullets killing everyone inside. That will definately happen with MG42 and I personally don't want to see it even more effective.

This is a small and sensible concern, if you mean to go against me just to follow the tradition don't go for it.
Hurr I might be wrong, but I will ignore all your arguments and say you just go against me for no reason before you even reply durr!
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 06:12:29
I've seen an mg hit the exact same fucking spot more than 20 times ffs what the fuck is going on in this thread

Sure lan, we can get away with adding minuscule spread to mg42 but no spread for vickers or bren or mg39 is a fucking retarded decision

Not gonna reply to you ts, savior of operation totalize. The more important question that needs to be asked, what makes you think the ww2 technology let the combatants hit the exact same spot on the surface of a plate 100 meters away, more than 30 times in a row? Did the bullets simply not have any weight, or were they firing laser guided shells with state-of-art gyroscopes?
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: LuckyOne on 23-12-2014, 11:12:44
Airshark did you forget that the Bren was so accurate they resorted to using worn out barrels to get more spread?
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 11:12:44
So a whole mag just hit the same spot on the wall, disregarding the kickback. I never knew.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 12:12:09
Again you are exaggerating, like back when you claimed everybody always instantly hit with rifles. You come here with some personal anecdotes when we actually know how the weapons are coded. They have spread, they have recoil (at least the bipod versions) and your impressions are those of a fool, so disregard them.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 12:12:34
Only a fool can disregard the fact that the static mg's hit one spot.

Your know it all attitude is retarded. You want to hit me proper, come up with the code!
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 12:12:58
OK. This is the code for the static MG42s, recoil and deviation:

rem ---BeginComp:WeaponBasedRecoilComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent WeaponBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilSize 0.5
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilSpeed 200
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilSpeedGB 200
ObjectTemplate.recoil.cameraRecoilSpeed 20
ObjectTemplate.recoil.cameraRecoilSize 1.5
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SimpleDeviationComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SimpleDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.2
rem ---EndComp ---
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: jan_kurator on 23-12-2014, 12:12:12
Hurr, it is not a proof that MG42 is coded that way, you could made up those lines of code to jump on Airshark79 again without a real reason, durr! It's not an argument anymore, it's cyberbullying!!!
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 12:12:43
This is either false or .2 degrees is fucking small to hit the same spot on the beach.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 12:12:59
Bipod and tripod mgs all use the same code because they use the same weapon.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 12:12:19
Get the code
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: jan_kurator on 23-12-2014, 12:12:22
This is either false or .2 degrees is fucking small to hit the same spot on the beach.
Hitting the same spot on the beach? That rarely happens but obviously it is possible to hit the same spot at a distance of ~500m if you spray 1200 bullets per minute aiming exactly the same spot from a lafette for a while. Now I see where this idea came from, you played Omaha Beach on allied side and ruined your K/D ratio again? As I said, adding more spread to MG42, which causes your butthurt, will result in opposite thing you want to achieve and you gonna get rekt even more.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 13:12:24
I know you don't like to listen to reason, but here it goes.
A deviation of 0.2 translates to a spread of 0.34m at 100m. The range from the cliffs on Omaha down to the beach is between 400 and 500m. At 400m, that means the shots are landing in a 1.36m radius. The MG42 shoot 1200 shots per minute, which means that a 1 second burst sends 20 shots (each usually dealing enough damage to kill) into that radius, making survival extremely unlikely.
So in conclusion:
- Machine guns have deviation
- This deviation makes them actually more lethal, increasing it would only spread out the rape some more.
- You don't know what you are talking about, but I do.
- Your "personal experience" doesn't count for shit. You might as well tell me you saw a UFO.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 15:12:02
Oh, and you are defending this? In general combat distance the spread is nothing more than my arm! This only gets my point further, what's the logic behind controlling a gun of 1200 rpm to shoot within 1.5 meter diameter? It should be changed to at least .3, optimum being .4
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Kelmola on 23-12-2014, 15:12:09
In general, MG's are quite heavy relative to the impact moment of the bullet so would be expected to have less recoil than rifles using a similar bullet, and the entire idea of a bipod, tripod, or fixed mount is to dampen the recoil even further. They are supposed to be accurate if aimed (for example, suppressing a bunker by aiming at the openings, suppressing a tank by firing at viewports and periscopes), even though they can and are often used as area effect weapons by moving the barrel around. There are real-world examples of MG's being used for sniping (when firing single shots only, mind you), so I don't see what's the point of making them more inaccurate.

PR's idea of random spread is a game mechanic to prolong firefights (and partially to simulate suppression under fire, although that logic goes out of the window when the ambushers suffer from it to begin with), it has nothing to do with realism.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 15:12:48
Weapon accuracy in FH2 is scaled down compared to real life due to the lower ranges. IRL the MG42 reliably hit man sized targets at 2000m, which is why they put a scope on the tripod.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 16:12:19
Ok, so do you mean would the gun itself hit within a circle of 3 meters diameter when going full auto at a thousand meter combat range? I'm not against precision at the first shot but I'm failing to understand why you are against more logical spread.

.3
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 20:12:27
"Logical"
See this is your problem: You have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know how accurate the machine gun was or how it even works. It feels wrong to you with your common sense because of how guns act in movies or other games. Thing is: your gut feeling is wrong and worthless.
But yeah, a burst from an MG42 on a tripod will easily hit a mansized target at 2km and not just the first shot. The gun is fixed in the tripod, so recoil is almost non existant.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 20:12:06
What you state as a fact is your opinion. I'm not a gun expert, neither you are, but you also lack the vision for proper gameplay. We can never settle this discussion. Either take the effort to improve spread to at least .4 or lets just stop discussing, after all it's up to you to change.

Now defend the lack of spread with flak.

Let's start with codes.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 23-12-2014, 20:12:03
Use the edit button for once. I merged few of your double / triple posts.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 20:12:35
Sorry for the trouble flippy. This phone I have doesn't have a copy function.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: RAnDOOm on 23-12-2014, 20:12:32
Airshark79 you have zero knowledge of reallife guns, zero knowledge of coding or programming and zero knowledge of how a game engine works.

You are always saying i will try this, and i will learn that and i will do actual things for several times.

Until now its has been always forum posts with false innacurate facts or content.

If you want to be taken serious Airshark79, actually learn /  do  / ask for advice.

All that you are doing here is seeking attention. Your making a fool out of yourself.

Take my advice. Learn / try /  do  / and then post your opinion.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 20:12:03
I might not be a gun expert, but at least I know how to look up weapon specifications... So now that I have shown you up for the chump you are you suddenly change the topic from realism to gameplay. OK good move, since I can tell you the realism route is a battle you will lose everytime and not only against me, but against any FH2 dev you ask. Because we take this stuff seriously and research it.
About the Flak: This is a gun that needs to be able to hit planes that are kilometres away: what do you think how accurate it is?

To explain it again: FH2 weapons are all less accurate than irl, simply because combat distances ingame are usually a lot smaller. Most tank gun stats are reduced by half for instance, although I am not 100% sure. Tank battles did not look like in "Fury", with tanks circling each other etc... it was mostly tank sniping at each other over hundreds of metres. The same is true with machine guns. Generally speaking, modern weapons (past the musket era) are way more accurate than the people wielding them. Misses are not caused by weapon inaccuracy, but by people not aiming properly or not being able to control the recoil. The same is true in FH2. You claim weapons are 100% accurate, yet if you look at people's stats on rifle accuracy for instance, the number is much, much lower.
The vBF2 weapon system with it's huge deviation is catered to retards, it removes skill from the equation completely. That being said, in FH2 aiming skill is very secondary, the true skill is hiding, especially for infantry, as in any modern war.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 21:12:21
Randoom. I have a history of environment design, and ts himself knows a portion of my prowess, from the application I've sent from the ~20 hour project of mine(undergrowth is complete btw), which they refused because they didn't want a siegfried line, the only map I'd actually have time to complete(Or they simply just hate me). I simply don't have the time onscreen. It wasn't for no reason I didn't join the fh camp battles. I only managed to get myself 6 hours in the whole of december and around 15 in november, and believe me I am trying to get as much of it as possible. I want to get 2 maps, one of which is at %60 state, and a damage model minimod done by summer. This is simply dead time for me with my phone so I don't really have an issue about doing this.

I'll respond in an hour ts.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-12-2014, 21:12:39
The map you sent us pictures from looked like something they would make in PR, a big landscape created in terragen or worldmachine with flags sprinkled over it at random. There was no design document or historical background, just a bunch of screenshots of a map one can make for a tournament in an evening. Obviously, nobody was impressed.
And yes, it is also because we don't like to. You said very clearly (and in a very condescending manner) several times that you don't like FH2 gameplay, so why would we want you in the team?
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 21:12:13
Terragen? Don't be a , I'd never dare to show up with some random pretty pics. The map is a 128 player 7 flag layout crafted on WM. Do you deem fields of photoshop and houses sprinkled according to wikipedia worthy of  proper assessment? That's just %25 of the job and if you overlook the difference I've made with the detailed terrain quality, texture and lighting shame on you.

You also miss one point, the map at that state was a work of 15-20 hours. A tournament guy can do it in an evening is not really far from truth, but I've intended to have shown there is not much can top me around this community.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: VonMudra on 23-12-2014, 22:12:58
I can't really add anything more to the conversation that Ts4EVER has not already said, but as a firearms expert who has fired most German small arms (up to 37mm actually, so not too small), I can say that the weapon accuracies ingame are very much correct.  Machine guns are generally more accurate than rifles due to the inherent weight and support manner (bipods, tripods, etc).  The MG34/42 on their lafette system, with scope, were extremely accurate and capable of hitting individual targets out to 2000 yards and mass targets/area suppression out to 3000 yards or so.  The ranges in BF2 are about 400yards with the fog distance, so basically any combat you experience ingame is pointblank with WW2 era weaponry.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 23-12-2014, 23:12:54
I will visualize the problem I've noticed with a video. 0.2 in theory isn't that much of a shitty number, I started out the conversation with assuming the value is at an absolute 0, because it felt like so.

Anyway.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Ts4EVER on 24-12-2014, 12:12:38
No need to make any videos, it boils down to you not liking the deadliness of FH2 weapons anyway.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 24-12-2014, 12:12:26
I really did see the gun hitting the same spot about 8-9 times in a row at the range of 75 meters and the aim really depends on the quality of my mouse(5 of them in the last three years)


I had a good reason to claim the gun would hit the pixel you aimed at, I will test for myself and make a video if what I witnessed is a reality.

The ttk is a macro concern and believe me I play your game too little to really take the effort to get you to change it. I will get myself some time, prepare the minimod, if it's any better than the mess you have it'll show.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 24-12-2014, 12:12:35
The fact that I played this game with 1366x768 for more than a year also was a central point in my impression.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Roughbeak on 24-12-2014, 15:12:07
I can't really add anything more to the conversation that Ts4EVER has not already said, but as a firearms expert who has fired most German small arms (up to 37mm actually, so not too small), I can say that the weapon accuracies ingame are very much correct.  Machine guns are generally more accurate than rifles due to the inherent weight and support manner (bipods, tripods, etc).  The MG34/42 on their lafette system, with scope, were extremely accurate and capable of hitting individual targets out to 2000 yards and mass targets/area suppression out to 3000 yards or so.  The ranges in BF2 are about 400yards with the fog distance, so basically any combat you experience ingame is pointblank with WW2 era weaponry.

The gun expert has spoken

Seriously, move on...
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 24-12-2014, 16:12:23
Oh here's an unnecessary hostile post
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Roughbeak on 24-12-2014, 16:12:06
I seriously don't know what game you are playing. Sorry, but it seems you a replying to someone adding subtle guilt to everyone who doesn't agree with you.
It looks like you didn't even pay attention to Ts4's codes awhile back or even Mudra's post.

Oh here's an unnecessary hostile post

Well? Sorry then. Here again, you are adding subtle guilt; which you cannot even accept what I or others said.

Then again, this thread is going further than needed. What is your end goal here? FH2 is awesome the way it is.

You are just changing the mod the way you want it to be.


I'm out 8)
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: VonMudra on 24-12-2014, 16:12:33
I really did see the gun hitting the same spot about 8-9 times in a row at the range of 75 meters and the aim really depends on the quality of my mouse(5 of them in the last three years) .

With WWII era weaponry firing a rifle caliber, 75 yards might as well be putting the nuzzle right onto the target.  It is PAST pointblank.  WWII era rifles and MGs were made to be relatively easy to hit any target you see with training.  And so it is in FH2.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 24-12-2014, 16:12:20
"0.2 in theory isn't that much of a shitty number, I started out the conversation with assuming the number was at an absolute 0, because it felt like so"

I either have a big problem communicating, or you misread my point.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: Airshark79 on 24-12-2014, 16:12:20
Ok vonmudra, it just looked silly to me to see the same patch of sand getting hit multiple times.

It still does but eh.
Title: Re: Lack of spread with MG's is a problem that needs fixing
Post by: LuckyOne on 24-12-2014, 21:12:44
^ That's a problem more with map design than anything else. On small maps like Brest and Tunis MGs are really hampered by the small combat distances, sure you can lock down a gate or alley by careful positioning, but generally there's only a few places where you can effectively deploy.

On Omaha it's a totally different story, you can spray lead while only being vulnerable to arty fire, snipers and the occasional lucky marksman.

And no need to be so hostile in the holiday season, I'm sure the devs have better jobs than listening to the players whining about how this and that thing sucks.