Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Off-Topic => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Admiral Donutz on 31-05-2010, 11:05:45
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Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.
Armed forces boarded the largest vessel overnight, clashing with some of the 500 people on board.
It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters.
Israel says its soldiers were shot at and attacked with weapons; the activists say Israeli troops came on board shooting.
The European Union has called for an inquiry to establish what happened.
'Guns and knives'
The six-ship flotilla, carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid, left the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday.
Israel says its soldiers boarded the lead ship in the early hours but were attacked with axes, knives, bars and at least two guns.
"Unfortunately this group were dead-set on confrontation," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC.
Organisers of the flotilla said at least 30 people were wounded in the incident. Israel says 10 of its soldiers were injured, one seriously.
(...)
He accused the convoy of a "premeditated and outrageous provocation", describing the flotilla as an "armada of hate".
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas condemned Israel's actions, saying it had committed a massacre.
Most of the people on board the boats were Turkish.
Turkey said it "strongly condemn[ed] these inhumane practices of Israel", AFP news agency reported.
In Turkey, dozens of protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in the Istanbul, while Israeli ambassadors have been summoned to the Turkish, Greek and Spanish foreign ministries to explain what happened.
Blockade
Israel had repeatedly said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".
Israel and Egypt tightened a blockade of Gaza after the Islamist movement Hamas took power there in 2007.
Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.
But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.
The incident comes a day before Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is due to meet US President Barack Obama in Washington after one of the most strained periods in US-Israeli relations in years.
Source: BBC News - Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm)
Seems like the situation escalated, to say the least, because the ships would't stop. If the cargo has been checked and only contains aid material, then I don't see why they wouldn't let the aid reach palestinian controlled land. Such blockades don't exactly encourage to come to a concensus, if anything it polarizes the parties involved...
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there is never an excuse to kill people
What irks me the most is politicians around the world "regret" what happened and the world moves on.... again and again the same shit happens by the same people, Iran gets 15785 sanctions and threated to be bombed not to mention active meassures to replave its gouvernment.
A documentary shot not so long ago , Ross kemp in Gaza to give you an idea how things are going in Gaza and why people try to bring in aid through ships cause Israel threats it as a huge concentration camp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWeiAmr_atA
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They attacked a merchant ship (aid materials in this case, for a population that really needs them) in international waters, i hope they put the old punishments on this for those who ordered this, hang them by there necks, because this is piracy in my book.
Anyway, i hope more people will see now that the Jews are not the good guys in this conflict, but the oppressors. And that proper international sanctions should be taken against them.
The people should not have fought back while they where being boarded, but i am wondering, is it allowed to try to stop someone from entering your ship without your permission in international waters? I do not know for sure but you would think that you would be allowed to do so, i mean, people can't just walk into your house without your permission eather, and it is sort of the same.
Anyway, that German anti jewish propaganda from WW2 is getting more to the truth every day.
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I wonder that too, if it indeed happend in international waters then such an act would be labeled as "hostile" (piracy, illegal attempt at trying to gain control over a vessel, or whatever you want to name it). within national (Isreali) waters it could easily be excused as enforcing their laws, one has the right to stop/board ships that you don't want in your waters.
The one exception to boarding sin international waters that I would expect, would be to check ships which are suspected to head for a country to smuggle in items/goods that have been banned under international (UN) treaties.
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Siben,
In the past there are several well documented cases where 'aid materials' consisted of bullets and guns. So I understand the reluctancy of the Israel government to let the goods through without a thorough inspection.
However, I dont think they need to use so much force, and hope it gets clarified what happened exactly on the ships.
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I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
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Siben,
In the past there are several well documented cases where 'aid materials' consisted of bullets and guns. So I understand the reluctancy of the Israel government to let the goods through without a thorough inspection.
However, I dont think they need to use so much force, and hope it gets clarified what happened exactly on the ships.
I would assume that these aid workers made sure that their cargo was indeed just aid. "aid" smuggled by some random truck... that could potentially be fishy and contain weapons and such.
Some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPSAof8MDw (what are they shouting?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxNHmFPHzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB6BxmZ9krs (AlJazeera English report)
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Siben,
In the past there are several well documented cases where 'aid materials' consisted of bullets and guns. So I understand the reluctancy of the Israel government to let the goods through without a thorough inspection.
However, I dont think they need to use so much force, and hope it gets clarified what happened exactly on the ships.
Maybe, but a ship leaving from Cyprus would have a very small chance of being loaded with weapons, if it was Iran or so then maybe, but Cyprus?
I can't seem to get on the OP's link so here is another one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html
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I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
You want to declare war upon Israel????
YOU'RE SCREWED!! ;D
Damn they made a scpec-ops assault on Uganda once and everyone were stunned how well they did it.
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Why didn't they simply sail to an Israeli harbour had the cargo checked. Seems like a clear provocation. The fact that there were 600 activists on a boat that was supposed to be carrying humanitarian aid isn't exactly convincing either. They learned the hard way that attacking a boarding party isn't very smart.
I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
Idiot.
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Why didn't they simply sail to an Israeli harbour had the cargo checked. Seems like a clear provocation. The fact that there were 600 activists on a boat that was supposed to be carrying humanitarian aid isn't exactly convincing either. They learned the hard way that attacking a boarding party isn't very smart.
I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
Idiot.
Cause Gaza is owned by the palestineans, not by israel. That and they were in international waters.
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Nuke Israel and whole area, it's the only way to end this bullshit. I'm sick of hearing about it. Take your religious differences somewhere else, take them to your heavens, there are much bigger things to fight, Chinas pollution, US over consumption, Japanese aggressive fishing, Indias corrupt economy, Global Warming blah blah blah.
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Anyway, that German anti jewish propaganda from WW2 is getting more to the truth every day.
Always when I read news about Israel, I think exactly the same... How long they can do whatever they want "because Hitler"? Please, nuke the country... or something.
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I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
Idiot.
Why am i an idiot my kind sir? For wanting to teach them a lesson of keeping your nose down and not acting as if god is you?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSBoO4GzHaI
"Where can you find pirates?
Off the coast of Israel, off the coast of Israel we've got pirates.
Where's your charity fleet?
It's probably in Israel, come to Israel we've got your humanitarian aid.
Forget Long John!
Israel, Next door to Palestine.
Where all your goods are,
And pirates shout YARRRR!
Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel!
Israel, walk the plank in Israel.
Can you high seas it?"
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I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
Idiot.
Why am i an idiot my kind sir? For wanting to teach them a lesson of keeping your nose down and not acting as if god is you?
You speak of war as if it's like a sunday stroll in the park.
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They take over a ship attacking as if its nothing wrong?They attack when they like as if its nothing?
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on one of those ships were even 2 members of the german parliament (far left) and it is unkown what happened to them ...
i can very well understand israel wanting to protect itself, considering that their neighbors dont like them that much.
but attacking/boarding a ship sailing under turkish flag in international warters is crazy. if they would have done it in their "borders" it would be different.
and the use of such huge force and live loss is just unacceptable.
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The leader of the swedish governmental party "Moderaterna" youth-party (this is the right-winged party that) said that this Gaza aid ship was just an excuse to support terrorism. It was terror-supplies etc disguised under the name of humanitarian aid...
Hopefully, that'll draw some votes from them in the elections this autumn.
As stefan said, so irritating that no one does anything. Sure there are protests (one bigm eeting in Stockholm today, protesting this last actions). but what does it all do?
Everyone says "it's aweful!" then 2 days later it is forgotten.
That's part of why I have no faith in mankind, and why I hate our species.
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The ships were repeatedly asked to divert their course to an Israeli harbour for inspections. When they flat out refused and continued sailing towards territorial waters the Israeli Navy took action. As far as I know only one of the six ships resisted the boarding parties and that was the ship with the 600 "peace activists". I'm not claiming that the boardings were legal as I have no extensive knowledge of maritime law. However beating and stabbing armed commandos is a good way to get shot.
Unlike most people on here (probably teenagers judging by their comments of nuking, waging war and nazi propaganda claims) I will reserve judgement.
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Who cares. If the report is true then people should not be throwing a shit fit over it. Besides it is not the first time they have pulled this shit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
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My gosh guys, read the freaking news before you spout off with your prejudiced bigotry.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10786445
Israel said its commandos were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers after they rappelled from a helicopter to board one of the vessels.
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An Israeli commando who spoke to reporters on a naval vessel off the coast, and who was identified only by the first letter of his name, "A," said he and his comrades were surprised by a group of Arabic-speaking men when they rapelled onto the deck.
He said some of the soldiers, taken off guard, were stripped of their helmets and equipment and thrown from the top deck to the lower deck, and that some had even jumped overboard to save themselves. At one point one of the passengers seized one of the soldiers' weapons and opened fire.
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Turkey's NTV showed activists beating one Israeli soldier with sticks as he rappelled from a helicopter onto one of the boats.
CNN is reporting weapons were found on board the boat.
It seems to me that the Israeli commando's actions were entirely justified.
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Crafty peace activists ::)
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Quite frankly I have no respect for the politicians in Israel...the Gaza strip seems like a ghetto increased in size.
As for this incident, I think international waters are there for a reason. Anyone violating them must face severe consequences, whether or not they are Israeli.
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we can have a discussion about the reaction of the people on that ship, but for starters it was not an israelian ship and they were in international waters , which means the israelian army is no better than somalian pirates. the whole "ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF" bullshit doesnt mean you can break international rules and laws, oh and i doubt any israelian life was in danger if the ship arrived or not considering there are 100+ tunnels between gaza and egypt.
Now if we wanna discuss the events on the ship itself, if israelian commandos enter your house in your country ( this refers to the weapon nuts on this forum ) would you say "oh its ok please take over the ship that isnt yours :)" or would you defend it? if 30 homeless people raided your house but they stole AK47s from the local gangs you can discuss if resistance is futile or not, but if your family gets shot by the homeless people i doubt the police is gonna blame you for trying to defend your house.
To those defending this kind of criminal behavior all i can say is karma is a bitch.
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Quite frankly I have no respect for the politicians in Israel...the Gaza strip seems like a ghetto increased in size.
As for this incident, I think international waters are there for a reason. Anyone violating them must face severe consequences, whether or not they are Israeli.
This has happened plenty of times before when there is suspicion of illegal activity:
For example, Spanish troops boarded a North Korean freighter in international waters in the Indian Ocean in 2002 when it was suspected they were smuggling weapons:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/11/us.missile.ship/
Would anyone like to explain what the people on this ship were trying to hide by preventing the Israelis from searching it?
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This has happened plenty of times before when there is suspicion of illegal activity:
For example, Spanish troops boarded a North Korean freighter in international waters in the Indian Ocean in 2002 when it was suspected they were smuggling weapons:
I think as a principle international law shouldn't be broken. Whether by Spanish, Israeli or American. The end. Also...why couldn't the Israelis wait until the ships were in Israeli territory? Were they in a rush?
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My gosh guys, read the freaking news before you spout off with your prejudiced bigotry.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10786445
Israel said its commandos were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers after they rappelled from a helicopter to board one of the vessels.
...
An Israeli commando who spoke to reporters on a naval vessel off the coast, and who was identified only by the first letter of his name, "A," said he and his comrades were surprised by a group of Arabic-speaking men when they rapelled onto the deck.
He said some of the soldiers, taken off guard, were stripped of their helmets and equipment and thrown from the top deck to the lower deck, and that some had even jumped overboard to save themselves. At one point one of the passengers seized one of the soldiers' weapons and opened fire.
...
Turkey's NTV showed activists beating one Israeli soldier with sticks as he rappelled from a helicopter onto one of the boats.
CNN is reporting weapons were found on board the boat.
It seems to me that the Israeli commando's actions were entirely justified.
What are weapons if i may ask? go into any professional kitchen and you will find dozens of illegal weapons. (any knife with a blade longer then the width of your hand is an illegal weapon) Also if you are a special forces soldier and some peace activists manage to steal your weapon, and then that excuse is used to say weapons where on board then it makes no sense since it where your own weapons to start with.
Also when you are held at gunpoint it is still self defence by the crew, i mean if it was some other ship and the crew would have killed and scared of some Somalian pirates it would have been a heroic act.
And give the aid to Israel and let them pass it true? Well, if you could trust them with it then maybe, Israel only lets true about 1/4th of what is really needed while there is plenty available.
Edit: thank you stefan, my point exactly
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megaraptor you gotta explain me why you like to buttfuck these criminals but on the other hand want to nuke terrorists, your morals or lack there of dont really apply on both sides.
It was not ok to search nor hold the ship in the north korea example neither is it in this one.
And i cant tell you if the ship was full of food or nuclear weapons, but it dont matter, its not cause the israelis want to check that you have to let them search it, ill give the redneck example again , homeless people want to search your house, if you have nothing to hide , why not let them in ?
In the end what this whole aid ship is about is a full head first protest against the israely blockade of gaza which turns it basicly in a huge concentrationcamp, i posted the ross kemp documentary before, you should rather watch those kind of things and inform yourself.
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Boarding the ship in international waters... rationally it sounds fishy, though I don't know what maratime law has to say about this. I have to admit that I don't know how high the chanches of a legal (just aid) or illegal (weapons etc.) cargo were. I'd be tempted to assume that the convey wasn't that stupid and didn't actually smuggle any arms to supply Hammas with. Though even if we should assumethey did smuggle illegal weapons onboard, shouldn't they wait for the ship to enter Israeli waters?
As far as the boarding goes: Any activists who used violence must have been idiots. Giving resistance by blocking doors, trying to block the Isrealy soldiers and such sounds like fair game to me. But violence, no. Obviously the Israely forces should also refrain from using any violence unless in self defence. What exactly when on here is also a bit vague at this moment.
I do support the intention behind this convoy though, to give Israel the middle finger and tell them "fuck that shit, we are going to bring aid and we won't be bullied around (thus ignoring requests to head to an Isreali port)". Though only on the ground that no weapons and such would be smuggled (aid material only!) and no violence be used (except ofcourse in self defence to save your own skin).
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For example, Spanish troops boarded a North Korean freighter in international waters in the Indian Ocean in 2002 when it was suspected they were smuggling weapons:
So, we are comparing NK with Turkey now? theoretical, maybe, but practical it is not a good comparison, thinking NK is smuggling weapons is much more reasonable then thinking a known Turkish humanitarian aid organisation is smuggling weapons.
Its like stopping a red cross blood donation van in your town on suspicion of smuggling weapons to a hospital. Possible, sure, but the chancer are bigger to get struck by lightning 5 times and live without a scratch (i believe there is 1 person on this planet that managed that)
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Boarding the ship in international waters... rationally it sounds fishy, though I don't know what maratime law has to say about this. I have to admit that I don't know how high the chanches of a legal (just aid) or illegal (weapons etc.) cargo were. I'd be tempted to assume that the convey wasn't that stupid and didn't actually smuggle any arms to supply Hammas with. Though even if we should assumethey did smuggle illegal weapons onboard, shouldn't they wait for the ship to enter Israeli waters?
From what I've read the convoy knew it was being watched and was hanging around outside Israeli waters waiting for a chance to slip by the Israeli Navy.
I know in the United States there is a law that gives the US Coast Guard the right to board ships suspected of smuggling which are loitering just outside US territorial waters waiting for a chance to slip through. I don't know if Israel has a similar law.
So, we are comparing NK with Turkey now? theoretical, maybe, but practical it is not a good comparison, thinking NK is smuggling weapons is much more reasonable then thinking a known Turkish humanitarian aid organisation is smuggling weapons.
Except that this known Turkish humanitarian aid group is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Also it was the only group to fight the boarders, the other ships owned by other aid groups allowed themselves to be boarded peacefully.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?180364-Israel-Attacks-Palestinian-Aid-Flotilla-According-To-Reports/page55
Also one more thing. Look at the pictures in the above link, it appears that the first wave of Israeli boarders was armed primarily with non-lethal weapons.
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more reason to resist the storming, also about US laws or israelian laws , they count for their own respective countries , last time i checked Gaza =! israel
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Well guys, let's consult international law instead of pretending to consult international law:
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument
1994 San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea
SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions."
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So the picture i get is, they boarded the ship, got swamped and captured, second wave came in with orders to shoot anyone acting fishy? Still an extreme overuse of force. Maybe the weapons found on board then where the first wave it's weapons, non lethal weapons like you say.
Anyway, at this point i believe Israel did a mayor PR screw up and i hope that this time action will be taken against there illegal expansion and suppression on the Palestinians. Won't make a final decision on this incident yet, but i doubt it will change my view on the current situation.
more reason to resist the storming, also about US laws or israelian laws , they count for their own respective countries , last time i checked Gaza =! israel
I think that someone really wants to change that sooner rather then later ;)
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Well guys, let's consult international law instead of pretending to consult international law:
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument
1994 San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea
SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions."
And as i wrote above, its not up to israel to set a blockade for gaza, do your best looking for excuses though since its the only input you seem to have.
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Well guys, let's consult international law instead of pretending to consult international law:
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument
1994 San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea
SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions."
Good post. So Israel had every right to intervene.
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Good post. So Israel had every right to intervene.
Depending on how "reasonable" the "suspicions of contrband" were. The blockade thing.. depends, they may mean a legal blockade, or else any nation could claim to lay down a blockade somewhere and thus have the right of searching every ship... which could easily be abused.
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Who says they didn't listen the order to stop and change course?
The Israelians.
Unless they have audio proof or any kind of proof i consider this piracy
Thank you .
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Still dont understand why there where so many people on that ship ? Maybe they weren't smuggling soldiers, but rather bringing "fresh meat" to the terror camps or Hamas supporting groups ..
Anyways, i find it perfectly legitimate what Israel did. Everything indicates that the ship clearly didnt follow requests and warnings. And, you can clearly see that a Commando gets beaten up after boarding the ship from the chopper. He was alone and there were like 20 other guys attacking him/doing shit/poking nose whatever. It was perfectly okay to defend himself.
Gaza shouldn't even get dry sand as aid till the Hamas has power in that piece of desert ..
my2cents ..
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New video of the incident has been released:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5mWCl3j_ec
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Who was videoing the whole incident?
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Who was videoing the whole incident?
Israeli aircraft.
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well, if someone comes to your ship with a weapon at international waters, of course you attack.
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http://yaakov.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/31/4442318-israel-the-flotilla-and-international-waters
well, if someone comes to your ship with a weapon at international waters, of course you attack.
Well, then they had every right to get shot.
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So you promote that if someone comes at a park with a gun while you are having a pic nick and you defent yourself with a bat he has every right to shoot you?
Nice thinking !!
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So you promote that if someone comes at a park with a gun while you are having a pic nick and you defent yourself with a bat he has every right to shoot you?
Nice thinking !!
If the cops show up at your house with guns and conduct a search, do you have the right to shoot them?
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Great. Thanks a bunch Israel and Palestinians, ruining my fucking tea time.
Turkey is definitley gonna get involved in this, cause of its dead citizens. But i'd rather sit this one out, both sides are at fault here, Israel for shooting at idiot peacelovers and the idiot peacelovers for thinking they had a chance against Israel.
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So you promote that if someone comes at a park with a gun while you are having a pic nick and you defent yourself with a bat he has every right to shoot you?
Nice thinking !!
Not what I'm saying. In your metafor the park would be owned by him. And yes, then he has every right to shoot me, especially if I attack him. That blockade on itself being illegal or not, it's just plain stupid to go sail through it thinking Israel Navy won't intercept. And they had the right to do so.
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So you promote that if someone comes at a park with a gun while you are having a pic nick and you defent yourself with a bat he has every right to shoot you?
Nice thinking !!
If the cops show up at your house with guns and conduct a search, do you have the right to shoot them?
If the american (israel) police would show up at my house(boat) in belgium (international water) because i plan a trip to canada (gaza)? yes. They have no right to do what they are doing.
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May be but not on international waters.You cannot blame someone from the Intention of doing something first he has to do it then go ahead and do the counter measures .
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So you promote that if someone comes at a park with a gun while you are having a pic nick and you defent yourself with a bat he has every right to shoot you?
Nice thinking !!
If the cops show up at your house with guns and conduct a search, do you have the right to shoot them?
If the american (israel) police would show up at my house(boat) in belgium (international water) because i plan a trip to canada (gaza)? yes. They have no right to do what they are doing.
Except Gaza is under an Israeli Naval blockade and Canada isnt. ^^
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Gaza might be, not not international waters. If they would have waited a bit the situation would have been different.
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Most Naval blockades happen in International waters :) If I was on a ship full of Arabs with Turkish citizenship, and the Israeli's warned me not to come I would jump off the ship and swim to Cyprus.
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If the american (israel) police would show up at my house(boat) in belgium (international water) because i plan a trip to canada (gaza)? yes. They have no right to do what they are doing.
As I said and linked, I don't know about legal reasons for the blockade itself but the Israeli navy did have the right do defend it and intercept ships trying to illegaly pass through. This was clearly a provocation, and a stupid one. Israel gave them several warnings and they ignored.
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If the american (israel) police would show up at my house(boat) in belgium (international water) because i plan a trip to canada (gaza)? yes. They have no right to do what they are doing.
As I said and linked, I don't know about legal reasons for the blockade itself but the Israeli navy did have the right do defend it and intercept ships trying to illegaly pass through. This was clearly a provocation, and a stupid one. Israel gave them several warnings and they ignored.
Reading your article now.
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Seen some footage from the Turkish ship. Peace protesters my ass. Looked more like a bunch of savages attacking the soldiers with knives and sticks. Hopefully no innocent bystanders were killed.
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I hope some Israeli settlers we're killed. If you want to start like that..
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Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?! Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go. This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
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I hope some Israeli settlers we're killed. If you want to start like that..
Don't hold back dude, show us your true colours.
Footage from the Turkish ship by a Turkish media crew:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded
Footage from the Israeli Navy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded
The Israeli forces on the footage have non lethal weapons btw.
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Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?! Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go. This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
All true, I think the only real point is wether or not the blockade or assaulting the ship itself was justified. But from the point on the Israeli navy told them they would board the ship, all the blame is with the crew itself.
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Thank you for the footage, but it is to early to make it believable. They are fragments made public with the intention to only show violence of the passengers of the ship. When they release the footage of the soldiers shooting there galil's at the crew then we can talk. But i doubt they will do that, they don't want to look bad in any way.
Don't forget, according to the German newsreels they where winning the war in Feb '45.
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Well, I would say the blockade was justified. The United States did the same thing with U.N. support in the 60's during the Cuban Missle crisis where we blocked Soviet ships from entering Cuba.... so as long as they have susppsion and evidence that those ships are carrying cargo which is ultimately dangerous to the saftety of their country, which is seems it was...then it was all legit.
@Siben, showing real footage of people getting slain is rather bad taste...which is why they might also not release it to the public...not necessarily because "they don't want to look bad in any way"...
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@ Oddball, although that is correct, the press seems to be doing it al the time lately, so why not here aswell.
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@ Oddball, although that is correct, the press seems to be doing it al the time lately, so why not here aswell.
Really? I havn't seen any such footage by the press, i've seen private videos and such, along with conflict MSM videos. However, it doesn't really show the victims in the media....
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@ Oddball, although that is correct, the press seems to be doing it al the time lately, so why not here aswell.
Really? I havn't seen any such footage by the press, i've seen private videos and such, along with conflict MSM videos. However, it doesn't really show the victims in the media....
In our newspapers, and on there websites, i have seen screencaps and video's of people getting shot in several countrys. Some where in nice good quality as well. I guess our press is different from yours.
I am not talking about this incident, but others in the past, like the religious riots in Nigeria a month ago, there was a nice film of someone shooting about 10 people with his AK-47 in the streets right on the frontpage of the most popular news site of the country.
EDIT: turkish minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan seems to have called the act of Israel an act of "state terrorism"
Also the numbers are 19 dead and 26 wounded at the moment
vice defence minister Danny Ayalon said that the organisers of the aid ships is linked to members of Hamas and Al Qaida
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EDIT: turkish minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan seems to have called the act of Israel an act of "state terrorism"
Also the numbers are 19 dead and 26 wounded at the moment
Recep Tayyip Faildoğan can go to hell. Any "Turk" willing to go on that ship deserved what was coming.
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reading some of these posts it seems ill have some good "excuses" for the next "terrorist attack" in israel/usa
That you guys arent ashamed to even post what you post with complete disregard for human life, one time the victims are completely innocent and its fine to invade whole countries and kill civilians on the other side of the world , and the other time its ok to kill people who defend their ship on international waters to protest against an illegal blockade and give aid to the palestinian people.
The world isnt misinformed when nearly everyone thinks its a disgrace what happened, the exceptions like you guys dont judge this event by the facts, but you look at the parties involved "hmmm one side is israel , othersise is muslims , oh ill pick israel side cause they are our only friends left! muslims are crazy terrorists lol".
Its almost as if you were happy this happened, i bet you wouldnt give the same lame excuses when iran organizes a blockade on israel and storms a US ship that actually contains weapons in international waters after warning them and shooting american crewmembers after they resisted the boarding, oh and please tell me how that is any different cause it isnt.
I used to think most of you were just kids being excited at the action in the news cause videogames dont give the same adrenaline punch, but i guess in the end you are just sick fucked up people cheering at the murder of people, and with the day i have less motivation to counterarguement to those who plan to kill you in retailliation for what you support.
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Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?! Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go. This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
Ah, of course, anyone who criticises Israeli policy is a Nazi. Sorry, I thought people on this board were more intelligent than such idiocy.
And it's spelt 'Palestine', and the people who live there are 'Palestinians', not 'Palistines'. Your constant insistence that you are above most of the people on this board or are absolutely right and therefore entitled to laugh at a thread and tell those who posted in it that you laughed at them as if this is some sign for them to feel ashamed is starting to wear thin, in light of your gross ignorance.
As for my take on the story, I think both sides are heavily at fault. The people on the ship for responding to armed forces involvement with violence, in doing so they endangered any innocent bystanders on the ship. The Israelis too, it seems, while of course obliged to defend themselves, became trigger happy once again.
A real sorry mess.
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Stefan,
As far as I am concerned please drop a few hydrogen bombs on Palestine + Israel. I could not care less, I despise them for their stupidity and religious violence equally.
This does not make it any different that the ships probably contained smuggling goods of some sort, else they would have complied to check the contents in an Israeli harbour. They did not, and the following actions might or might not be justified - sad to see the loss of life, but I know too little about it to call Israel good or bad.
I'll wait a few days and see what exactly was on the ships and what exactly happened.
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Can't you guys just leave the middle east as a political shithole and ignore it? People die everday from heart attacks, strange diseases, murderers, and etc. You don't see everyone freaking out about those kinds of things because it isn't brought into the news that often and when it is, everybodies used to it by now.
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big story
Why should I care about people half the world around that I don't know? It's mere public moral that prescribes I should care about them, or human lives in general. Well, I don't. Too bad. There's six billion people, caring about only twenty of them because they are in the news is just being hypocrite.
If you truly cared about human lives as you say you do, you should be crying all day long because of all those deaths that occur at every moment. Only feeling mad or sad about these is as I said, merely hypocrite and symbolic.
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As said before, these ships had nothing to hide. I cant put my hands into the fire swearing it had 100% legal aid for the civilian population, how do we know nothing will be planted now? its all void considering the prupose of these ships was the protest against complete blockade of gaza that even hinders basic stuff like construction material. they wanted to go straight to gaza and deliver aid on their own terms without israelian interference, THAT was the point of this, they could have cared less what the israelies thought, anyone who thinks the crews were dicks to ignore the israelies, what do you think about israelies and the blockade then ? again double morals.
For anyone who missed it my first post has link to the documentary about gaza, and the second part is about israel , make the comparisson and make up your own mind.
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The un is having a little meeting on it now, they started about 50 minutes ago, lets see what they have to say about it.
The Greek ship Sfendoni that was part of the fleet says is has been shot at from helicopters and gunboats BEFORE being boarded.
Russia says it was a large violation of international law and will give a statement later, Syria and Lebanon said they are afraid this will lead to a new war. Some counsel of gulf states called it terrorism, also some official arab group (dont know names in english of these groups, cant translate them to English) said it was a deliberate attempt to block all peace negotiation and that the Jewish people do not want peace. (I agree on this, they do not want peace because they want to expand, and with peace they can no longer to that)
Israeli minister Benjamin Netanyahu can go and explain it all tomorrow to Obama in person.
Israeli civilians have been advised not to travel to turkey. Those who are there are advised to return.
Also, i saw a nice demonstration of about 500 people today in Brussels, was peacefull. They sure had a lot of wistle's though
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As said before, these ships had nothing to hide. I cant put my hands into the fire swearing it had 100% legal aid for the civilian population, how do we know nothing will be planted now? its all void considering the prupose of these ships was the protest against complete blockade of gaza that even hinders basic stuff like construction material. they wanted to go straight to gaza and deliver aid on their own terms without israelian interference, THAT was the point of this, they could have cared less what the israelies thought, anyone who thinks the crews were dicks to ignore the israelies, what do you think about israelies and the blockade then ? again double morals.
It's not my point that the aid was or was not rightious. It's just that the Israeli Navy has its blockade, warns everyone to stay away and still some people try to break through. That's all fine by me, but its their own choice and they shouldn't whine about it afterwards because the Israelis actually put means to their threats.
Wether or not the blockade itself is legal is a completely different subject. It's about wether or not the Israelis acted legal in thís incident. Given the fact that they, by law, have the right to defend their blockade it still remains the fault of the crew who choose to ignore the Israeli warnings and even attacked them when they boarded.
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As said before, these ships had nothing to hide. I cant put my hands into the fire swearing it had 100% legal aid for the civilian population, how do we know nothing will be planted now? its all void considering the prupose of these ships was the protest against complete blockade of gaza that even hinders basic stuff like construction material. they wanted to go straight to gaza and deliver aid on their own terms without israelian interference, THAT was the point of this, they could have cared less what the israelies thought, anyone who thinks the crews were dicks to ignore the israelies, what do you think about israelies and the blockade then ? again double morals.
For anyone who missed it my first post has link to the documentary about gaza, and the second part is about israel , make the comparisson and make up your own mind.
Stefan je bent een roepende in de woestijn, and I mean that in a positive way.
@Dnarag and Sander93
Come on, if you make a mess you've got to clean it up. You two don't personally have to care for it, but our governments have some amends to make.
I don't like looking in the past to solve tomorrow's problems, but in this case it's all wrapped and drenched in history, that you can't deny it's past.
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I wish Turkey declares war on them and Greece joins.Together we can fight them.Then keep up what we were doing all those years hating each other ;D
Idiot.
Why am i an idiot my kind sir? For wanting to teach them a lesson of keeping your nose down and not acting as if god is you?
Well we all hope you are first in line if that fight ever comes.
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Why do people hate Israel?
They are one of the oldest world cultures and they have a very ancient religion.
They are behaving aggresively somethimes but everyone wants to destroy them. That's kinda unfair...
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They believe they are superior to everyone.
They believe that we own them
They crucified Jesus xb
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They believe they are superior to everyone.
They believe that we own them
They crucified Jesus xb
Do they also control the world banking and financial systems, and drink the blood of Christian children?
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Well, you're not far off on the first, not sure about the second though ;)
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And Americans don't?
I mean Israel deserved it with its long and beautifull history!
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They have no right to kill.Stun them,punch them,make them stop with battons . Why kill them? 18 people?
Tell me this: What if it has happened the other way around? Gaza people attacking ships ? I bet most countries would be ready to sent troops to fight terrorism already.
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They have every right to defend themselves when threatened by a murderous mob. How the hell do you defend yourself with your fists when you are outnumbered 10 to 1?
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israel was stupid when it attacked on INTERNATIONAL WATERS, if they had waited them to come israeli waters, there would be much less complaining about things.
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israel was stupid when it attacked on INTERNATIONAL WATERS, if they had waited them to come israeli waters, there would be much less complaining about things.
Once again, international law concerning international waters:
SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
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Still Israel claims that it has the best Spec ops there is.cant they shoot on air or use flash bangs or use tranquilizer guns?
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israel was stupid when it attacked on INTERNATIONAL WATERS, if they had waited them to come israeli waters, there would be much less complaining about things.
Once again, international law concerning international waters:
SECTION V: NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
yeah, wait until same happens in Iran (some area on coast for some reason wants to get seprate, western countries send aid ships.. if Iran tries to capture those ships, USA and others would nuke the whole country down before iranese guys even see the ship.)
Really, Israel is allowed to do this only because Hitler. If you say something against Israel, you are antisemitist and bad person.
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Quod erat demonstrandum:
Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?!
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Still Israel claims that it has the best Spec ops there is.cant they shoot on air or use flash bangs or use tranquilizer guns?
What do you think they were doing? the first men dropped on the boat were armed with paintball guns.
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Still Israel claims that it has the best Spec ops there is.cant they shoot on air or use flash bangs or use tranquilizer guns?
They boarded the ships with painball guns and threw flash bangs, at least read some articles, watch pictures and videos and listen to news reports before commenting.
they did have live fire sidearms holstered, but they only used them after being outnumbered 10 to 1 and getting beat up real bad with metal poles, chairs and stuff, and getting stabbed by knifes.
P.S 9 people were killed, not 19.
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They wont board that ship just to shoot people. Their is always a good reason.
Now Extremist muslims will use this to get even more people to their side, making regular muslims look bad even more.
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If the cops show up at your house with guns and conduct a search, do you have the right to shoot them?
THe situation is more tricky, as it's in international waters but alright I'll play along:
You can't shoot at cops, but if they don't got any legal right (search warrant) they can't enter your house. If they attempt to do so it makes sense to resist them and try to push them out. Preferably via dialogue and a small amount of (non threatening) force. If they still continue to enter your house you would probably be best of videotaping it all and dragging the police (officers0 into court for violating the law. If the police would start to beat you up, then ofcourse you'd be in your right to resist and counter those assaults. And visa verca ofcourse; If you attack them, they ca use force on you to defend themselves. Using an approperiate level of force ofcourse, and lethal force should be used as a last resort only. But if it comes down to that, both you and the cop should be able to use lethal force incase your (their) life depend on it.
So if a cop would barge down my door I'd try to throw them out, if they used force, I'd resist "approperiaty", if some crazy would threaten to kill me, I should be able to defend myself even if I'd take the cops life in order to save my own skin. The same would apply incase I would try to murder a cop, they could take me down and I'd have got it comming to me.
Not what I'm saying. In your metafor the park would be owned by him. And yes, then he has every right to shoot me, especially if I attack him. That blockade on itself being illegal or not, it's just plain stupid to go sail through it thinking Israel Navy won't intercept. And they had the right to do so.
That's rather contradicting, IF the blockade itself would be illegal or in a grey area, so would be any actions/manouvres such as these boardings. However, I do agree that they could have expected (and did expect) the Isrealies to go and board the ships.
Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?!
Uhuh.... Care to point out which post are racist? Unless questioning or disagreeing with Isreal equals being anti semetic or a nazi... lol.
Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go.
It's still rather vague at this moment, but let's assume/say the blockage and/or boarding were illegal or atleast in a legal grey area: This would mean that you should have to cooperate and would have every right to ignore any questionable requests or demands. In theory the crew might have had to just standby and watch, possibly videotape everything and then make an official complaint regarding illegal boardings at the various authorities (Isreal, UN, etc.). Though going by that book, any nation could board and search any (merchant)ship anywhere on this planet as they see fit. I doubt many ships/nations would tolerate that though...
The best way to resist this boarding (be it -or the blockage- legal, illegal or in a grey zone) would probably have been to be as uncooperative as possible and using non threathening resistance: Lock yourselves in, so that they can't access the quarters. Try to hold of the troops by pushing them around/back, asking them to get the hell of the ship and so on. That way noone should have had any reason to use (lethal) force.
So if you ask me either side handled this pretty damn poorly, the Isrealies for deciding to board the ship and the ships for using force to try to stop the boarding crews.
Having said all that, it still remains the question how many of the dead and injured "got it comming to them" and got attacked in self defense. I wouldn't be too suprised that when the situation escaleted, it escalated rpetty bad and that both sides used much more force then reasonable.
This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
No, propaganda to finally find a solution to those damn problems: Settling on a border, getting rid of all those illegal settlements, taking down that wall (relocate it to the border if you have to) and so on. But both sides always want to take revenge and deal the last blow. On both sides there are people who don't want peace. A quick solution would be ofcourse to nuke the hell out of the whole region, killing millions of innocents in the process, just so radicals on either side are dealth with.
Ah, of course, anyone who criticises Israeli policy is a Nazi. Sorry, I thought people on this board were more intelligent than such idiocy.
And it's spelt 'Palestine', and the people who live there are 'Palestinians', not 'Palistines'. Your constant insistence that you are above most of the people on this board or are absolutely right and therefore entitled to laugh at a thread and tell those who posted in it that you laughed at them as if this is some sign for them to feel ashamed is starting to wear thin, in light of your gross ignorance.
As for my take on the story, I think both sides are heavily at fault. The people on the ship for responding to armed forces involvement with violence, in doing so they endangered any innocent bystanders on the ship. The Israelis too, it seems, while of course obliged to defend themselves, became trigger happy once again.
A real sorry mess.
I concur.
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Oh, can us trolls come in here now?
Haha, ships.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
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Oh, can us trolls come in here now?
Haha, ships.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Yes because all Jews live in Israel or are Israeli citizens, despite the fact that most Jews live outside Israel and more Jews live in the United States than live in Israel.
Remember, prejudice is taking something that only applies to a sub-set of a group and applying it to the whole group of people.
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Oh, can us trolls come in here now?
Haha, ships.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Yes because all Jews live in Israel or are Israeli citizens, despite the fact that most Jews live outside Israel and more Jews live in the United States than live in Israel.
Remember, prejudice is taking something that only applies to a sub-set of a group and applying it to the whole group of people.
When the facts come out - watch. If I'm wrong - Ban me forever. Seriously.
This conflict like every other one of those 2s conflicts is based on religion. It started from that and will continue based on that difference. Just read about their histories.
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Oh, can us trolls come in here now?
Haha, ships.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Yes because all Jews live in Israel or are Israeli citizens, despite the fact that most Jews live outside Israel and more Jews live in the United States than live in Israel.
Remember, prejudice is taking something that only applies to a sub-set of a group and applying it to the whole group of people.
When the facts come out - watch. If I'm wrong - Ban me forever. Seriously.
This conflict like every other one of those 2s conflicts is based on religion. It started from that and will continue based on that difference. Just read about their histories.
What are you saying? All Jews everywhere are in eternal conflict with Muslims because of their religion?
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maybe you forgot to read the words "this conflict..."
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Oh, can us trolls come in here now?
Haha, ships.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Yes because all Jews live in Israel or are Israeli citizens, despite the fact that most Jews live outside Israel and more Jews live in the United States than live in Israel.
Remember, prejudice is taking something that only applies to a sub-set of a group and applying it to the whole group of people.
When the facts come out - watch. If I'm wrong - Ban me forever. Seriously.
This conflict like every other one of those 2s conflicts is based on religion. It started from that and will continue based on that difference. Just read about their histories.
What are you saying? All Jews everywhere are in eternal conflict with Muslims because of their religion?
THIS conflict. Read up.
I actually had a very good talk with a woman who i did landscaping for. She is very into history and was born in Jerusalem and has been to the Gaza strip and many other places I have never previously heard of. She's also a Jew. She told me exactly how it is there, right from the horses mouth - and apparently it's the same all over. Constant social and religious conflict - so in this case it is fair to say it is religion based... because it has always been religion based in that fucking place. Cradle of life - more like Cradle of death.
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I'm having trouble squaring your newfound specificity with your previous far-reaching "lol jews" comment.
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I'm having trouble squaring your newfound specificity with your previous far-reaching "lol jews" comment.
Laughing at religion. As their conflict stems from their differences in religion.
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Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?! Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go. This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
Ah, of course, anyone who criticises Israeli policy is a Nazi. Sorry, I thought people on this board were more intelligent than such idiocy.
And it's spelt 'Palestine', and the people who live there are 'Palestinians', not 'Palistines'. Your constant insistence that you are above most of the people on this board or are absolutely right and therefore entitled to laugh at a thread and tell those who posted in it that you laughed at them as if this is some sign for them to feel ashamed is starting to wear thin, in light of your gross ignorance.
As for my take on the story, I think both sides are heavily at fault. The people on the ship for responding to armed forces involvement with violence, in doing so they endangered any innocent bystanders on the ship. The Israelis too, it seems, while of course obliged to defend themselves, became trigger happy once again.
A real sorry mess.
Okay, since A.) there has been a lot of misunderstanding of why I said nazis, it's because people were seeming to sympathize with Hitler and his propaganda...such as "Anyway, that German anti jewish propaganda from WW2 is getting more to the truth every day."...maybe it was said jokingly but yeah....whatever....
B.) Ooooh, I spelt a couple works wrong, want to file a lawsuit? I'll be your lawyer.... Anyways... you got the jist of my squeel, so the point still got apart. Lets leave it at that shall we? Or do I have to tear up your grammar...however I feel you did that simply because you could find anything else to come back with... :-*
@Siben, yes...apparently our news media is different. Out of respect for the victims, by some law passed...the press isn't allowed to show graphic images of the deceased without permission.
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They are a very carefull nation. They surely won't attack for no reason.
Their main moto is "Attack is the best defence" and I hardly belive they want to torture Muslims as I've read in a book once that Muslims were always well treated in the arab-israeli conflicts (I mean the civilan population).
Any warcrimes commited were reported immidiately.They are not here to screw with the world. They are more like a modern Spartan tribe.
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I just checked the organisations homepage and according to their map, they were just inside Israeli Waters (12 sea miles = 22.2 km) Even though they say it was outside that area.
Their homepage is: http://witnessgaza.com/
Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&om=1&t=h&msa=0&msid=116970983657577589705.00048701e55af63586cc0&ll=32.759562,33.980713&spn=2.771523,4.119873&z=8&iwloc=00048701ea5ffac87c774&f=d&daddr=Spirit+intercepted+%4031.6804,34.1143)
So at least from that point of view the soldiers had the right to stop the boats and search them.
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nuke 'em all
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nuke 'em all
If you do that i wont be able to play FH anymore.
find another solution please.
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For anyone interested in Gaza read this article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm)
It is probably the definitive article online about the situation on Gaza by someone who is very well versed in the issue.
I also fiercely disagree with anyone who claims that Religion causes wars. I have yet to see compelling evidence that spiritual matters trump material matters. That is to say, politics and economics start wars and not religion. Religion is at best the excuse. For the record I'm anti-religious myself.
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nuke 'em all
If you do that i wont be able to play FH anymore.
find another solution please.
nuke us all?
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For anyone interested in Gaza read this article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm)
It is probably the definitive article online about the situation on Gaza by someone who is very well versed in the issue.
Chomsky? LOLWUT. Why not give a link to Hamas homepage instead. He's biased as hell and sees everything through his anti-US glasses. (inb4 Yankee go home: I'm from Finland.) As long as a party of a conflict opposes the US (or the West in General), Chomsky is there to cheer them on and will find whatever excuse he finds suitable. Most often, it's some old Cold War rhetoric of "imperialistic and colonialist lackeys of capitalist bankers oppressing the downtrodden native people" or something similar.
The Israel/Palestine thing being the Charlie Foxtrot it is now would not be as bad had it not been for the Cold War where the Soviets also would find just about anyone willing to oppose the US (much as the US would find just about anyone willing to oppose the Soviets). In this case, it was the Arabs. Supplying weapons and supporting the most militant leaders for forty years will do the trick, the constant warring will become spontaneous and a way of life. Not that the Arab leaders mind, they can conveniently point all the discontent towards Israel without having to consider changing the conditions and the political system of their own. "Hate Minute" from 1984 much?
Simply demanding territory from Israel is not going to work, or are we going to start revising every border that has been changed during the past century? While we're at it, the Arabs have started the wars themselves, the Six-day war being the exception to the rule, but after that they began the Yom Kippur war and lost that one as well. At least, here in Finland, the Continuation War is often used as an argument against getting back the lost territories, if one argues that we really had no choice then the argument goes "well, we lost".
Also, giving refugee status that is hereditary - as long as one of your ancestors was a refugee you're also one - is ludicrous. (Often, it is conveniently forgotten how the Israelis were expelled from the area later known as Palestine in 1948. Strangely, they and their descendants have not been given refugee status?) Why then, I'm a refugee myself by the same definition, my mother was an infant when her family had to leave the area annexed by the Soviet Union. So I'll go and make some homemade rockets and fire them over the border and OMG eevul oppressors cannot stop me from excercising my rights because I'm an innocent civilian.
If you want a solution from me, it would be to make most of Middle East an internationally controlled DMZ, with international police and military forces keeping order with a ruthless attitude towards any kind of violence, a strictly secular constitution for the new state to be formed, and freedom to move and to settle down within for both Israelis and Arabs. Jerusalem as a central city to three different religions is especially to be kept open for everyone irrespective of nationality or creed. None of this "you may visit the Temple Wall but you may not pray there because you're infidels" BS.
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For anyone interested in Gaza read this article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm)
It is probably the definitive article online about the situation on Gaza by someone who is very well versed in the issue.
Jerusalem as a central city to three different religions is especially to be kept open for everyone irrespective of nationality or creed. None of this "you may visit the Temple Wall but you may not pray there because you're infidels" BS.
Saladin and Richard got it right after the third crusade. After them, well.. you see how it is.
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I think a lot of people are getting really heated up over this issue because either the word 'Israel' or 'Palestine' is mentioned.
Please, open your eyes. Turkey does this kind of stuff daily to the Kurds, and nobody gives a damn. The Kurds are Turkeys Palestines. Both are ethnic or cultural minorities that claim to have rights to a certain area because it is their land.
The U.S.A. never gave back the country to the Indians and are _no_ better than the Israelis or the Turks. They just did a better job in killing, capturing and surpressing organized resistance against the white people conquering America. And we can name countless, countless events where minorities are fighting for what they see as their right, their country...and get beaten down by others for it.
Nobody raised hell for that here on the forums. So don't be hypocritical all ; I'm sick and tired of this focus on Israel AND Palestine, both countries/people screw it up for themselves. I don't feel sorry for either. Watch a few documentaries and you can see both are doing wrongs and rights, now or in the past. And neither really, really care to fix things, they just want it 'their way or no way'. This besides that Israel currently is behaving in general like the Nazi's did in the 30's, but let me be very clear I see no victim role of many Palestinians.
And people claiming this is not about religion...get your head fixed, check history. Please. How blind can you be...
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For anyone interested in Gaza read this article.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm)
It is probably the definitive article online about the situation on Gaza by someone who is very well versed in the issue.
Chomsky? LOLWUT. Why not give a link to Hamas homepage instead. He's biased as hell and sees everything through his anti-US glasses. (inb4 Yankee go home: I'm from Finland.) As long as a party of a conflict opposes the US (or the West in General), Chomsky is there to cheer them on and will find whatever excuse he finds suitable. Most often, it's some old Cold War rhetoric of "imperialistic and colonialist lackeys of capitalist bankers oppressing the downtrodden native people" or something similar.
So in otherwords, you never read it.
I'll clarify Chomsky's political leanings for everyone else interested. He is a professed 'libertarian socialist' which basically means anarchist in the traditional sense. He was a fierce opponent not simply of U.S and Israeli aggression but also of Soviet and aggressive acts in general against any population. What he does do in particular is analyse and take apart the claims of Western media and political agencies to determine the truth of a particular matter. His level of research is quite honestly astonishing at times and I have read quite a many works on world events but have yet to find much (if anything a times) which can disprove his arguments.
I could have spent some time explaining my own views such as everyone else but felt it was better to let someone who has done serious life-long research in an academic environment do the talking.
Dnarag, I agree entirely with your points. I see no reason why anyone suffering anywhere in the world should be deemed less important then someone else. Though at the moment the barrier to peace is primarily Israel, Hamas and Fatah aren't doing themselves any favours by spouting religious rhetoric which encourages further sectarian violence.
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Dnarag, I agree. Has happened here as well.
The Sami people, the original inhabitants of Finland - not the proto-Germanic invaders who came from the south thousands of years later, mixed with the local populace, bastardized the language to their own use and started to call themselves Finns - were steadily pushed from the shores of Baltic to Lapland for hundreds of years. There had been some violence, but nothing even near the scale of other "aborigine hunts". However, a balance was reached finally, and they were given the legal ownership of their current lands. So legally they owned most of Lapland as late as 1905 - their ownership of their traditional lands for reindeer herding and hunting was confirmed in the land reform of that year and duly registered in the books and annals. After Finland became independent in 1917, however, the new authority considered not to be responsible for decisions made under Russian autonomy, and completely reversed the policy, declaring the Sami lands "ownerless" and belonging to the government. No government has since reversed the policy, or even admitted that the problem exists. There have been some attempts to get the case to a proper court hearing since Finland joined the EU, unsurprisingly the case has never progressed even to the local administrative court, much less the courts of appeal, because thereafter the case could be vetoed in the EU court.
Yet, I do not see Sami Liberation Front blasting suicide bombs in the middle of Helsinki, or demanding all Finns to be expelled from Lapland, so obviously something has been done differently.
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Spartanlegend, I tried reading that article quite far. My blood pressure started rising alarmingly when I started to encounter weasel words such as "US-Israeli state terror". From what I understood from the article is that Chomsky says that Israel is playing dirty and should turn the other cheek because all the Palestinians really want is peace.
I think that Gazan people (West Bank is a slightly different case today) should really decide what is going on. Are they a legitimate state ruled by Hamas? In that case, constantly firing rockets over the border at Israeli civilian targets is an act of war, and Israel has the right to defend itself. If Gaza is not a state but a "rogue territory", then Israel does have the rights to excercise force within its territory. The same goes for the "illegal occupation" of Southern Lebanon, well now Israel has withdrawn and the rockets fly again, with the Lebanese government too weak to stop Hizbollah doing that, so all is happy in Chomsky-land.
Also, disguising in civilian clothing while engaging in combat, and building rocket factories in the basements of inhabited civilian buildings is usually considered in breach of Geneva Conventions. How is Israel supposed to fight in either case? By shooting "unarmed" (at least by the time when the Western press is summoned by Hamas) civilians, and "bombing homes" (never mind the weapons factories underneath), most likely. Which is always a crime, according to Chomsky. Re Chomsky's rants how settling the West Bank is a crime, I accuse him of hypocrisy since other resettlements post-WW2 don't seem to bother him at all, only what Israel does is by definition a crime.
Whatever "humanitarian disaster" has befallen Gaza has been caused by Hamas itself. The embargo has never stopped or even tried to stop non-military goods getting in, but for the purposes of Hamas, it is better to keep the people in poor conditions so that they become angry, and that anger can then be directed at Israel.
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This should be intresting (it's Dutch):
http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buitenland/2010/06/nieuw_schip_richting_gaza.html
Basicly the Free Gaze movement has now sent another ship which will try to break through the blockade. Once again Israel has already issued a warning they WILL intercept if they indeed try to breach.
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The stupidest thing about this is that Israel has said that foreign aid is welcome to go to Gaza. It just has to land at Ashdod, be inspected for contraband cargo, and then travel overland through the border crossing.
This appears to be a problem for some people.
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The stupidest thing about this is that Israel has said that foreign aid is welcome to go to Gaza. It just has to land at Ashdod, be inspected for contraband cargo, and then travel overland through the border crossing.
This appears to be a problem for some people.
Yes, because they only allow 15 000 tons to go true a day, and they need about 60 000 (acording to the UN) a day for just the basics. See why people want to bypass the Israel step now?
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I think a lot of people are getting really heated up over this issue because either the word 'Israel' or 'Palestine' is mentioned.
Please, open your eyes. Turkey does this kind of stuff daily to the Kurds, and nobody gives a damn. The Kurds are Turkeys Palestines. Both are ethnic or cultural minorities that claim to have rights to a certain area because it is their land.
The struggle between the Kurds and Turks is quite well known, who hasn't heard of the Kurds fighting for independance or even ultimately, Kurdistan (Which would take a chunck out of Turkey, Iraq etc.). From time to time you see a documentairy or report on it (perhaps a bit less then about Israel-Palestine though) and the newspapers do mention attacks and counter attacks that have caused deaths. So I wouldn't call that conflict as forgotten.
And yes, there are and have been plenty of other simular issues all around the globe: people attacking eachother over claims of taking back their land, or fighting of an oppressor, or kicking out group that is of a world view (religion, clan, whatever) that is evil/bad/corrupted.
IMHO, if the number of people in a region is significant enough, and if neither side will have to fearfor it's excistance, I'm all for independance. If some provinces in the Netherlands would like to split of, I wouldn't really care (I might advice against it as a silly idea, such a small piece of land might not get around easily in this world... but in principle, I would not object).
Whatever "humanitarian disaster" has befallen Gaza has been caused by Hamas itself. The embargo has never stopped or even tried to stop non-military goods getting in, but for the purposes of Hamas, it is better to keep the people in poor conditions so that they become angry, and that anger can then be directed at Israel.
It's not just arms they block, the blockage most definately is having an effect beyond that. Building materials for example are almost if not outright impossible to get in....
Guide: Gaza under blockade
By Heather Sharp
BBC News, Jerusalem
The Gaza Strip has been under a heightened Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized control in June 2007. Israel wants to weaken Hamas, end its rockets attacks against Israeli towns and get back captured soldier Gilad Shalit.
Amnesty International has dubbed the blockade "collective punishment" resulting in a "humanitarian crisis"; UN officials have described the situation as "grim", "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege", but Israel says there are no shortages in Gaza, pointing to the aid it allows in.
What gets in and out of Gaza, and what impact has it had?
__________________________________________________
OVERVIEW: WHAT GETS IN
For much of the three years since Hamas took control of Gaza, its 1.5m people have relied on less than a quarter of the volume of imported supplies they received in December 2005.
In the wake of the Hamas takeover, Israel said it would allow only basic humanitarian supplies into the Strip. It has a list of dual-use items such as steel pipes and fertiliser which it says could be used to manufacture weapons.
These are not allowed in, with the exception of "special humanitarian cases". Other than that, no specific list of what is and is not allowed in has been published, and items gaining entry vary over time.
The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa's list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner.
Many other items - ranging from cars to fridges to computers - are generally refused entry.
Building materials such as cement, concrete and wood were nearly always refused entry until early 2010, when some glass, wood, cement and aluminium were allowed in.
During the six month truce between Israel and Hamas, which began in June 2008, and in early 2010, the volume and range of goods increased with trucks of shoes and clothes entering Gaza.
Israel says Hamas has diverted aid in the past, and could appropriate building materials for its own use. Aid agencies say they have stringent monitoring systems in place.
(...)
Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
So yeah... I wonder why those aid organisations would want bypass such silly restrictions on types and amounts of pretty much any type of material/resource... ::)
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I feel bad for the people who are killed, let's hope this don't lead to more dead people.
To make it simple, I think Israelis should consider using more "soft" skills before using deadly force. At least, don't try to land on the ship unless the crews permit you to do so? You entered a lion cage, and shoot a lion because you think the lion would eat you. Really, if you know/suspect there is a lion, don't enter the cage!
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The stupidest thing about this is that Israel has said that foreign aid is welcome to go to Gaza. It just has to land at Ashdod, be inspected for contraband cargo, and then travel overland through the border crossing.
This appears to be a problem for some people.
Yes, because they only allow 15 000 tons to go true a day, and they need about 60 000 (acording to the UN) a day for just the basics. See why people want to bypass the Israel step now?
You're falling for Hamas propaganda.
http://www.mererhetoric.com/2008/10/06/new-data-confirms-old-data-blaming-israel-for-gazas-medical-collapse-is-a-vicious-lie/
Hamas shut down Gaza’s generators, rejected fuel shipments, shot at fuel trucks, refused to collect millions of liters from what Palestinians admitted were “full storage tanks on the Gaza side”, and murdered Israelis who still tried to provide them with energy. Throughout this insanity Israel supplied extra electricity to Gaza even though, according to the UN, “it was not obliged to”. Gaza’s energy crisis? Israel’s fault.
The food crisis? After taking over Gaza, Hamas started randomly rejecting Israeli food aid. But even the BBC admitted that Israel still supplied more than enough aid to ensure that “no one starves” in Gaza. So Hamas took to specifically blocking Israeli fruits and vegetables. A few months later, the UN followed the BBC and admitted that Gazans do get more than enough food – but they still condemned Israel for not supplying enough fruits and vegetables. Really.
The medical crisis? Hamas shut down Gaza’s clinics, intentionally failed to request and often rejected medical supplies, siphoned hospital fuel for terrorism ops, sacked medical personnel, publicly abased dozens of doctors, and physically attacked several more. Which is to say nothing of how their genocidal terrorism regularly triggers conflicts that strain their medical system.
http://newsblaze.com/story/20100524133052zzzz.nb/topstory.html
The total amount of aid transferred from Israel to Gaza in 2009 increased by 180 percent, compared to the amount transferred 2008.
A flotilla of nine vessels organized by pro-Palestinian activists is currently en route to Gaza carrying various goods. However, the total amount of supplies transported by the flotilla, 10,000 tons, is less than the weekly average amount of goods transferred by Israel into Gaza.
# In 2010, 230,690 tons of humanitarian aid has been transferred from Israel into Gaza through the Israel-Gaza goods crossings
# More than 6.5 million gallons (25 million liters) of heavy duty diesel fuel for Gaza's power station has been transferred from Israel to Gaza
# More than 12,000 tons of cooking oil has been transferred into Gaza
# 6,354 Gazans have entered Israel on medical grounds
# 86 truckloads of flowers and strawberries have been exported from Gaza into Israel
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Which side says that? Were are the real documents that prove such statements? Are you sure this is not propanganda from the other side? It all can be a war of propanganda between them .
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alot of stuff is also forbidden for example construction material and coffee, which was on the boat
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Lol, this thread made me die a little inside...are you guys really a bunch of nazis or something?! Their move, and demonstrated by Megaraptor and Eglaerinion, was clearily justified. The scenerios you guys compare this too isn't anything close to the situation Israel is in. The Israeli Cammandos arn't pirates or robbers as you seem to like to compare them to. Instead they are more of a policing force which come onboard with the intention of everyone's safety as long as you don't try to harm them; after all...there safety is more important than the possible criminals. Therefore, if you pull out some knives and shit on them, they are going to fire, no shit. However, if you were doing nothing wrong, don't pull out the knives...let them search the ship...they find nothing...your good to go. This just seems like propaganda to promote the demolition of Isreal...which is EXACTLY what Palistine's plan is. Israel has been more than cooperable with Palistine, but they just wont give an inch and continue to antagonize Israel. If anyone needs to be prosecuted, it's the Palistines!
Ah, of course, anyone who criticises Israeli policy is a Nazi. Sorry, I thought people on this board were more intelligent than such idiocy.
And it's spelt 'Palestine', and the people who live there are 'Palestinians', not 'Palistines'. Your constant insistence that you are above most of the people on this board or are absolutely right and therefore entitled to laugh at a thread and tell those who posted in it that you laughed at them as if this is some sign for them to feel ashamed is starting to wear thin, in light of your gross ignorance.
As for my take on the story, I think both sides are heavily at fault. The people on the ship for responding to armed forces involvement with violence, in doing so they endangered any innocent bystanders on the ship. The Israelis too, it seems, while of course obliged to defend themselves, became trigger happy once again.
A real sorry mess.
Okay, since A.) there has been a lot of misunderstanding of why I said nazis, it's because people were seeming to sympathize with Hitler and his propaganda...such as "Anyway, that German anti jewish propaganda from WW2 is getting more to the truth every day."...maybe it was said jokingly but yeah....whatever....
B.) Ooooh, I spelt a couple works wrong, want to file a lawsuit? I'll be your lawyer.... Anyways... you got the jist of my squeel, so the point still got apart. Lets leave it at that shall we? Or do I have to tear up your grammar...however I feel you did that simply because you could find anything else to come back with... :-*
Once again you demonstrate an offensive level of ignorance. In response to B), you attempt to belittle my pointing out of your wilful ignorance of the peoples of the Middle East as grammar Nazism - this is not the case. To say 'Palistines' smacks of idiocy and a deliberate attempt to show no respect, something typical of your attitude in posts across these forums.
You also, puzzlingly, imply that I attacked your 'grammar' (spelling is not grammar, although your grammar is, I admit, appalling) because I had nothing else to 'come back with'. As I have demonstrated above, my attack on your spelling was an attack on your wilful disrespect to other cultures, not an attempt to skirt the issue. As for finding something 'to come back with' - I could perhaps cite the fact that the aim of 'Palistine' is not the destruction of Israel. On the contrary, even the most right wing of commentators on the area are aware that Hamas' real aim is the preservation of the status quo, for it is this that allows their black market dealings and gangster operations that they rely upon for their real powerbase. The 'destruction of Israel' would obliterate their plutocratic control over Gaza and destroy the sympathy they rely upon for money to spend on arms and food to sell at extortionate rates. Fatah were little better - Arafat rejected a comprehensive offer by Netanyahu in the late 1990s that would see 99.8% of Palestinian territory returned to them with full sovereignty, and the 0.02% that was missing would be made up for by other Israeli territories Israel was prepared to cede. But ultimately the people in power in Gaza don't want either the destruction of Israel or an end to the status quo, because it would destroy their monopoly on power that they use for their own gain.
To conclude my outright rejection of your assertion that 'the Palistines' want to destroy Israel (something I admit I should have done earlier), I will cite my own experience in the West Bank three years ago. I met a number of Palestinians and community leaders therefrom, and I can assure you (as can countless journalists and interviewees) that the vast majority of ordinary Palestinian people simply want a two state solution and an end to violence.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion-old/dont-fall-for-islamist-hype/story-e6frfhqf-1225874185912
Update.
According to reports:
- The violent activists largely came from a Turkish Islamic NGO called IHH.
- After questioning these activists from the boat, Israel has learned that about 100 of them were recruited especially for fighting with Israeli security forces. As one passenger said "These are people who wish to be martyred for the sake of Allah. As much as they want to reach Gaza, the other option is more desirable to them."
- Some of these people have ties with terrorist organizations including Al-Qaida.
- In the past, the IHH has used its status as a charity as a cover for recruiting foreign volunteers to fight in Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan.
- IHH offices in Turkey have been used to hide weapons and explosives.
- IHH was involved in supporting a failed 2000 plot to stage a car bombing of Los Angeles International Airport.
- IHH has a long history of support for Hamas.
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Once again, who called it..... ::)... lol, @ Meadow, Ignorant, nah.....arrogant, perhaps... ;)
Anyways...being to one spot of the ordeal doesn't make you an expert on the situation, now before you go drawing any conclusions, i'm not saying i'm and expert either. However, I have studied both sides of the conflict and my alliance is with Israel...as I feel they are clearly in the right. Even though you seem to have sympathy for the poor "palestinians", which no, I have no respect for, because he have fallen for their propaganda and it's probably what you report? Which is typical for the press, they are usually bias towards one side or the other.
Enough with that nonsense. If your claim is correct, that they just want a two state solution, they were offered that, in the 'Proportional Plan", if my memory serves me correctly...but......shocker shocker the "palestinians" refused. They wern't happy with the peaceful proposal to fairly devide the land, and then cause conflicts with the Jews and cry to the world to make them out to be some big bad beast when they get destroyed...It's an age long battle going back before biblical <---(why don't you correct my spelling there, too) times. Most of the "palestinians" want to see Israel abolished and the Jews out of the M.E. Especially the Islamic fanatics, like the ones aboard the vessel they attacked, and are crying to the world becasue they were out-foxed and the ignorant, sympathyzing with any living thing that is attacked, feels sorry for them without knowing the truth behind the matter....
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Once again, who called it..... ::)... lol, @ Meadow, Ignorant, nah.....arrogant, perhaps... ;)
Anyways...being to one spot of the ordeal doesn't make you an expert on the situation, now before you go drawing any conclusions, i'm not saying i'm and expert either. However, I have studied both sides of the conflict and my alliance is with Israel...as I feel they are clearly in the right. Even though you seem to have sympathy for the poor "palestinians", which no, I have no respect for, because he have fallen for their propaganda and it's probably what you report? Which is typical for the press, they are usually bias towards one side or the other.
Enough with that nonsense. If your claim is correct, that they just want a two state solution, they were offered that, in the 'Proportional Plan", if my memory serves me correctly...but......shocker shocker the "palestinians" refused. They wern't happy with the peaceful proposal to fairly devide the land, and then cause conflicts with the Jews and cry to the world to make them out to be some big bad beast when they get destroyed...It's an age long battle going back before biblical <---(why don't you correct my spelling there, too) times. Most of the "palestinians" want to see Israel abolished and the Jews out of the M.E. Especially the Islamic fanatics, like the ones aboard the vessel they attacked, and are crying to the world becasue they were out-foxed and the ignorant, sympathyzing with any living thing that is attacked, feels sorry for them without knowing the truth behind the matter....
I take offense to the suggestion that I claimed to be an expert based solely upon a visit to the West Bank. I simply used it to add weight to my existing reference to scholarship and journalism that clearly refutes the idea that Palestinians (who you still, disturbingly in my opinion, refer to with sweeping generalisations - how would you feel if someone said that 'the Americans want Obama to socialise medicine' simply based on recent events?) want to destroy Israel.
With regards to why they rejected the Proportional Settlement, perhaps you missed this part of my post:
On the contrary, even the most right wing of commentators on the area are aware that Hamas' real aim is the preservation of the status quo, for it is this that allows their black market dealings and gangster operations that they rely upon for their real powerbase. The 'destruction of Israel' would obliterate their plutocratic control over Gaza and destroy the sympathy they rely upon for money to spend on arms and food to sell at extortionate rates. Fatah were little better - Arafat rejected a comprehensive offer by Netanyahu in the late 1990s that would see 99.8% of Palestinian territory returned to them with full sovereignty, and the 0.02% that was missing would be made up for by other Israeli territories Israel was prepared to cede. But ultimately the people in power in Gaza don't want either the destruction of Israel or an end to the status quo, because it would destroy their monopoly on power that they use for their own gain.
To reiterate - the majority of ordinary people in Palestine want a peaceful two state solution that grants them dignity and quality of life. The minority who want to destroy Israel are distinct from those who are in control - Hamas, for all intents and purposes, are a gangster organisation who fire rockets into Israel to gain sympathy from those who call them 'freedom fighters' - like those violent indviduals on the ship who have selfishly called into question the entire Aid for Gaza project. I hope you understand that this time and don't simply ignore the part of my argument that you wish to act like I haven't answered.
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For the love of Jesus -effing- Christ....If they indeed had the intention to kill the armed forces that boarded and if they were prepared for it don't you think they would??I am no expert at this but would it be hard for about 100 people to pin down and severely harm the 15 or so spec ops before they even get the chance to shoot against them?? On the other side i see the people that you say were there to kill them to be lying dead and the Israelite claiming that all those people were terrorists.
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LMAO, Honestly, I would say something back...but this BS got so far out of hand I forgot what the main statement that caused your uproar was about. What were you trying to prove against me? I forgot and don't really feel like going back....
@ MaJ.P.Bouras... if they killed them, then they would look like the 'bad guys'...which clearly they are. But, by doing it this way, it makes the Israelis look like the 'bad guys' that fired on a bunch of "innocent" civilians...therefore they will get sympathy from all the crazied, dramatic, pro-life people...Think about them like suicide bombers, no different, they knew they were going to die for the cause either way. Whatever to gain sympathy and support.
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So 100 guys get in a ship from turkey to Cyprus then from there to gaza just to get killed...Sounds right.So we should thank the israelis for taking the life of all those people and spit on their grave.
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So 100 guys get in a ship from turkey to Cyprus then from there to gaza just to get killed...Sounds right.So we should thank the israelis for taking the life of all those people and spit on their grave.
...and what do you propose all these suicide bombers, 9-11 pilots, and "insurgent" fighters do. Now nowhere in there did I say we should disrespect them, hence "spit on there graves"...God I hate it when you guys do that... although I don't feel they deserve to be praised or sympathized greatly for.
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LMAO, Honestly, I would say something back...but this BS got so far out of hand I forgot what the main statement that caused your uproar was about. What were you trying to prove against me? I forgot and don't really feel like going back....
Ironically, in this post you prove my point about your arrogant attempts to avoid debate. In my very first post I attacked your constant 'I'll say my piece, then laugh at anyone who disagrees and walk away' attitude to online discussion. If any more proof were needed of that, you have just provided it. I used to be interested in what you had to say in debates on this forum, but this thread has been the final straw in breaking your credibility as someone who actually wants to have a discussion rather than mouth off their own opinions then hide behind their own self-righteousness. I very much doubt I am alone in this opinion.
As for what I was 'trying to prove' - I'm trying to argue that your blanket assertions about the Palestinian people are deeply flawed and based upon ignorance. You have yet to prove me wrong.
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So 100 guys get in a ship from turkey to Cyprus then from there to gaza just to get killed...Sounds right.So we should thank the israelis for taking the life of all those people and spit on their grave.
...and what do you Suppose all these suicide bombers, 9-11 pilots, and "insurgent" fighters do. Now nowhere in there did I say we should disrespect them, hence "spit on there graves"...God I hate it when you guys do that... although I don't feel they deserve to be praised or sympathized greatly for.
Touche.But then again the whole story back then was also a joke.A plane hijacked with a nail file (or whatever its called)?But anyways this is not 9/11 conspiracies thread...Fact is that this incident has mistakes from both sides and lacks any proof at least for me as both sides can prove anything.
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LMAO, Honestly, I would say something back...but this BS got so far out of hand I forgot what the main statement that caused your uproar was about. What were you trying to prove against me? I forgot and don't really feel like going back....
Ironically, in this post you prove my point about your arrogant attempts to avoid debate. In my very first post I attacked your constant 'I'll say my piece, then laugh at anyone who disagrees and walk away' attitude to online discussion. If any more proof were needed of that, you have just provided it. I used to be interested in what you had to say in debates on this forum, but this thread has been the final straw in breaking your credibility as someone who actually wants to have a discussion rather than mouth off their own opinions then hide behind their own self-righteousness. I very much doubt I am alone in this opinion.
As for what I was 'trying to prove' - I'm trying to argue that your blanket assertions about the Palestinian people are deeply flawed and based upon ignorance. You have yet to prove me wrong.
Oh right, I believe I covered this before. I do try to avoid debates...online...because it's a joke, there is no mediator, no one takes anyone seriously, there is no order, they quickly become hostile and personal, and our time zones and schedules make it impossible for me, especially, due to my lack of time on these forums to keep up with everything. When I come back from a nights rest, or day at work..there are at least 2 pages of posts ripping apart everything I said... now i'd love to answer them back one by one... however I just don't have the time for that just to be ignored anyways. So now, I throw my opinion out there, and expect people to agree, troll it, or respectfully disagree, but I'm not going to defend my point when there is no need to. Now, I believe you've got me wrong once more.... I don't laugh at everything everyone say, some people bring up some good points or would be "refutes", but after I learned my position and that i'm outgunned by the particular liberal bias on this forum (which I don't mind, but it ultimately takes up too much time...) I havn't been intrested in a debate. I'm sure your not alone in your opinion of me, which is fine...think what you want, your entitled to your opinion.....
As for your point...I was misinterpreted again, am I not clear? Or is it something to do with the language barriers?
I made no general assumption of the "palestinians", except they arn't found of Israel and they obviously arn't intrested in sharing, because of what history proves....
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Do you know what comes to mind?
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/101372979_67e2f631ca.jpg?v=0)
They might think they had a good reason to kill him, but it sure as hell looked bad in a PR point of view. And PR wins wars now a days. (Israel is the one with the gun for those who don't get it, the one shooting here is the 'good' one)
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Damn straight they are the 'good' ones.. I mean... there are worst ways to kill him, he should be happy they're being so kind to shoot him. :D No but seriously, not sure I get your comparison.
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Your average Joe see it as a ship with food on its way to a population that needs food that was aggressively stopped by Israel. Thus Israel is the bad guy.
People that in the past thought that Israel was a good country just because they where treated so badly during WW2 have a change of changing there minds now.
Yes, many very young/average/old age people think like this.
This dent's Israel's reputation a lot.
(oversimplification)
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Your average Joe see it as a ship with food on its way to a population that needs food that was aggressively stopped by Israel. Thus Israel is the bad guy.
People that in the past thought that Israel was a good country just because they where treated so badly during WW2 have a change of changing there minds now.
Yes, many very young/average/old age people think like this.
This dent's Israel's reputation a lot.
(oversimplification)
This.
To further exagerate the bullshit, the Chief of Staff is is meeting with all the regional commanders of the military, one soldier was even seen running to take 'maps' to the meeting.
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My opinions have nothing to do with the way that they were treated in WW2, that's like saying we owe the blacks for having them in slavery...which is some people's way of thinking....I know it's bullshit (no offence to black people) but there were white slaves, too. However, that's a whole new story.
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Spartanlegend, I tried reading that article quite far. My blood pressure started rising alarmingly when I started to encounter weasel words such as "US-Israeli state terror". From what I understood from the article is that Chomsky says that Israel is playing dirty and should turn the other cheek because all the Palestinians really want is peace.
No that's not what he is saying precisely. His argument is that the U.S and Israel have no interest in peace in the region and are actively trying to undermine any effort towards it. At least until Israel has completed its settlement program which would effectively gut the West Bank and destroy any viable Palestinian state. The U.S is giving Israel the blank check as it were because Israel is a useful client state. America is the only country in the world which has been condemned by the world as a International Terrorist State for its support of the Contras in the 1980's.
Israel is attempting 'lebensraum' by stealth in the West Bank by settling in areas which have key access to water and fertile land. Naturally the Palestinians the region are evicted or terriorised by the Israeli's until they leave. So what are the Palestinian people to do? The major Arab nations won't help them at least beyond some token gesture. The world won't help them, Israel has been condemned by the U.N on this issue about 70 times and each time has told the U.N to go fuck itself. We have bombed other nations for less then this.
I think that Gazan people (West Bank is a slightly different case today) should really decide what is going on. Are they a legitimate state ruled by Hamas? In that case, constantly firing rockets over the border at Israeli civilian targets is an act of war, and Israel has the right to defend itself. If Gaza is not a state but a "rogue territory", then Israel does have the rights to excercise force within its territory. The same goes for the "illegal occupation" of Southern Lebanon, well now Israel has withdrawn and the rockets fly again, with the Lebanese government too weak to stop Hizbollah doing that, so all is happy in Chomsky-land.
If Israel ceasing to launch provocative attacks across her borders these attacks will cease. Remember that Hezbollah and similar groups gain their strength from claims of Israeli agression. They sell themselves as defenders of Islam. Now, everytime Israel attacks it only confirms this.
Let's ask a more serious question. Does Hezbollah or Hamas pose a serious threat to the existence of the Israeli state? No. They can fire a thousand rockets, they will inevitably run out of steam and energy when Israel does nothing. Why then should these groups exist if Israel won't attack? The most crucial factor though is that Israel must cease her settlement programs and withdraw to her 1967 border and allow for the establishment of a Palestinian state. This will immediately suck the steam out of any Islamic movement. I'm sure there would be some ready to use up their remaining rockets but ignore them. There is an old saying that is the strong who forgive and not the weak. So long as Israel is continuing her settlement program then Hamas and similar groups are legitimised in shooting back. I'm sure if Russia began colonising the best parts of Finland you'd be pretty pissed of, particularly if the world seemed to just look the other way. At the end of the day it all comes back to the settlement program. You can't tell someone you want peace when your kicking him out of his home.
Also, disguising in civilian clothing while engaging in combat, and building rocket factories in the basements of inhabited civilian buildings is usually considered in breach of Geneva Conventions. How is Israel supposed to fight in either case? By shooting "unarmed" (at least by the time when the Western press is summoned by Hamas) civilians, and "bombing homes" (never mind the weapons factories underneath), most likely.
Yeah those European Resistance groups were such cowards! The Gestapo and SS were perfectly legimitised in stopping them!
Remember, Israel gets a red carpet treatment and 3 Billion dollars spending money to purchase arms from the U.S. What the hell are you supposed to do against someone with F-15 fighter jets who can kill you from miles in the air with impunity? Just let them walk over you? We hate to admit it in the West but these tactics are the most logical and appropriate means of continuing to wage a war against an immensely superior opponent. The better question to ask, is if the war is justified not the means.
Which is always a crime, according to Chomsky. Re Chomsky's rants how settling the West Bank is a crime, I accuse him of hypocrisy since other resettlements post-WW2 don't seem to bother him at all, only what Israel does is by definition a crime.
Such as? I'm sure he would have issues with them. He just focuses his work on the U.S and Israel, he lived in Israel for a while and is Jewish so I guess it is only natural for him to have particular interest for it.
Whatever "humanitarian disaster" has befallen Gaza has been caused by Hamas itself. The embargo has never stopped or even tried to stop non-military goods getting in, but for the purposes of Hamas, it is better to keep the people in poor conditions so that they become angry, and that anger can then be directed at Israel.
Israel is blockading Gaza. This is an act of war. Israel used this claim to justify starting the 6 day war. As for the claims that the blockade is not strangling Gaza I refer you to the Goldstone Report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_report)
It's the best official report on the situation I've seen, and Hamas receives the appropriate level of blame for its own crimes.
Fatah were little better - Arafat rejected a comprehensive offer by Netanyahu in the late 1990s that would see 99.8% of Palestinian territory returned to them with full sovereignty, and the 0.02% that was missing would be made up for by other Israeli territories Israel was prepared to cede.
My understanding that this was never an official offer and was a sort of 'informal' agreement. It never managed to get into mainstream discussion or have the terms placed in the open arena which makes you wonder if it was ever legitimate. Please prove me wrong here though I honestly don't know that much about this particular event.
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Spartanlegend, all I'm saying that when a guerilla does the actual fighting he or she should wear some sort of identification distinguishing him/her from noncombatants. When not fighting, it is OK to blend in with the population. When I'm watching Israeli-biased Western news footage of the evil media conglomerates run by Jews, I quite often see guys in civilian clothes running with guns in hand, with not even something as simple as a bandanna to separate them from civilians. Of course, they say that they're not really using human shields since the populace supports them, so it's OK to fire potshots from amongst a crowd ::)
Regarding WW2 resistance movements, to my knowledge Polish Underground State had proper uniforms and command structure and teh eevul Nazis did consider them a legitimate combatant. But you can't argue that all of the things the resistance movements did was by the book, either (particularly the indiscriminate hunt for "collaborators" both during and after the war). Nobody is questioning the legitimacy of resistance fighting, it's just the methods. The end does not always justify whatever means necessary - "two wrongs do not make one right".
I'm sure if Russia began colonising the best parts of Finland you'd be pretty pissed of, particularly if the world seemed to just look the other way.
Fail. This is what they did. BRB, Qassam tiem nao!
As to the settlements, I cannot understand why even a two-state solution would have to involve a judenfrei Palestine. Much as I cannot understand why the right to return and hereditary refugee status only applies to Palestinians, not Israelis. I am sure that some sort of compromise could be agreed if both parties were willing, for example that the colonies/settlements become part of the state they're in and some compensation is paid - though it must be remembered that Israelis evicted from Palestinian territory in 1948 never got any compensation so compensating only Palestinians for the land claimed by the settlements would be lopsided, but if that's what buys the peace... Also, any future Palestinian state should guarantee the safety and human rights of its Jewish citizens as well - because I cannot honestly see the international community sanctioning an ethnically clean state post-Yugoslavian Wars.
Saying that Israel is behaving like the Nazis and that the Palestinians have no alternative to fighting is not really realistic. Fighting did not stop the violence in Northern Ireland, peaceful negotiations did. Israel would be unable to use violence on undisputably nonviolent protesters on a large scale, the outcry would be so big that the current debacle would be tiny in comparison. Qassams might be just a nuisance but they really do kill human beings, so many people find in hard to sympathize with their shooters. Civil disobedience and nonviolent protests might turn even people like me to support their cause. However, this would require nonviolence in the true Gandhi style, not in the "critical NGO" style that is practiced in G20/IMF/etc. meetings, and certainly not in the current Middle East style where there seems to be little difference between an outright riot and orderly demonstration.
Meadow's comment about Hamas leadership vs. ordinary Palestinians' wishes was spot on, btw.
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Update:
- A cache of body armor and gas masks was found aboard the Mavi Marmara. So the ship WAS smuggling military gear.
- Around 50 passengers carried no identification or passports. Some of them are believe to be connected to various terrorist organizations. Israel is currently trying to determine if any of them have outstanding warrants.
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Update:
- A cache of body armor and gas masks was found aboard the Mavi Marmara. So the ship WAS smuggling military gear.
- Around 50 passengers carried no identification or passports. Some of them are believe to be connected to various terrorist organizations. Israel is currently trying to determine if any of them have outstanding warrants.
A Gas mask, military? I used it at work and i sure as hell wasn't in the army. Body armour, what kind? Stab proof vests can be bought by anyone for example without a problem. Night vision goggles? can be bought right here in my tiny village in a second hand shop.
Anyway, something to see, might be interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx-pSkee9J0&playnext_from=TL&videos=fJvgxRtXgeo&feature=sub
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Hmmm "Jersualem Post" and "The young Turks" can both be considered biased.
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Pretty much all media can be considered biased. I mean how much is left when you take out al the company's that are arab or jewish. Maybe the BBC or some Chinese or Russian agency, but i doubt they are pro Israel.
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Update:
- A cache of body armor and gas masks was found aboard the Mavi Marmara. So the ship WAS smuggling military gear.
- Around 50 passengers carried no identification or passports. Some of them are believe to be connected to various terrorist organizations. Israel is currently trying to determine if any of them have outstanding warrants.
A Gas mask, military? I used it at work and i sure as hell wasn't in the army. Body armour, what kind? Stab proof vests can be bought by anyone for example without a problem. Night vision goggles? can be bought right here in my tiny village in a second hand shop.
Yes and you can buy guns in my area including AR-15s, therefore by your logic they must not be military equipment. ::)
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Look Kemola, I don't support Hamas or anything like that but I'm being realistic. Peace will never be achieved so long as the settlement program is in force- the fuel in the fire. Israel has been condemned 80 times for this, 80 times she ignored it. This goes way back to the 1970's or way before Hamas or Fatah. in the 1960's after Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza they were That's the key point here. What people see is a rocket flying over the border but they don't see the Palestinian in the West Bank losing their homes. Which is precisely what Israel wants. Unless Israel is made to face any kind of international repercussion for her actions there will never be peace. The Settlement program must stop and be utterly abolished. There is no alternative.
When I'm watching Israeli-biased Western news footage of the evil media conglomerates run by Jews
Look up 'manufacturing consent' when you get the time. You'll never look at the media the same way again.
This is what they did.
You were pissed of though weren't you?
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Update:
- A cache of body armor and gas masks was found aboard the Mavi Marmara. So the ship WAS smuggling military gear.
- Around 50 passengers carried no identification or passports. Some of them are believe to be connected to various terrorist organizations. Israel is currently trying to determine if any of them have outstanding warrants.
A Gas mask, military? I used it at work and i sure as hell wasn't in the army. Body armour, what kind? Stab proof vests can be bought by anyone for example without a problem. Night vision goggles? can be bought right here in my tiny village in a second hand shop.
Yes and you can buy guns in my area including AR-15s, therefore by your logic they must not be military equipment. ::)
the guns you can just buy here are historical. The rest take long times to get the licences (anyting non bolt action). Same for all amunition, took me 4 months to get the paperwork finished to buy bullets for my Mauser. Those are not things you can just buy and use. Unlike body armour, night vision and gas masks.
Just because you live in a country where you can buy guns like i buy a bread doesn't make my point invalid.
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169
Update:
- A cache of body armor and gas masks was found aboard the Mavi Marmara. So the ship WAS smuggling military gear.
- Around 50 passengers carried no identification or passports. Some of them are believe to be connected to various terrorist organizations. Israel is currently trying to determine if any of them have outstanding warrants.
A Gas mask, military? I used it at work and i sure as hell wasn't in the army. Body armour, what kind? Stab proof vests can be bought by anyone for example without a problem. Night vision goggles? can be bought right here in my tiny village in a second hand shop.
Yes and you can buy guns in my area including AR-15s, therefore by your logic they must not be military equipment. ::)
You can kill people with that AR-15 of yours. Flak jackets and gas masks on the other hand are quite handy if one wishes to stay alive. Especially in a besieged city. ::)
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Do you know what comes to mind?
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/101372979_67e2f631ca.jpg?v=0)
They might think they had a good reason to kill him, but it sure as hell looked bad in a PR point of view. And PR wins wars now a days. (Israel is the one with the gun for those who don't get it, the one shooting here is the 'good' one)
The man executing him is the Saigon chief of police, IIRC, and the man being executed had just been found guilty of murdering the chief of police's family. So yeah, while I don't condone capital punishment in any circumstances, the story behind this picture has certainly been messed about for political reasons. (I usually hear people say 'that American soldier shooting the man just because he's a communist')
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Gas masks will be the end of Israel , on that note its not illegal to ship them to gaza, whatever israel thinks is legal or not doesnt matter cause gaza isnt israel.
Anyhow even the US gouvernment condemned it now , but not as strong as it should.
And the UN has asked Israel to stop the blockade which shows the blockade is illegal.
No weapons on the ship, so much for blaming the organisations for trying to smuggle them for hamas.
Not even the Israelian gouvernment denies that the ship was in international waters.
In the end Israel thought it could get away with boarding the ship, but it backfired on them. Lets hope for the sake for those who died that this event will stop the blockade on Gaza under pressure of the world community.
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As to the settlements, I cannot understand why even a two-state solution would have to involve a judenfrei Palestine.
After settling on the borders they'd need to accept the population within. Only thing would be that people would get a Palestinian or Israeli passport depending on which territory they live in. Religious background should not matter. So no jew-free Palestine or Palestine free Israel.
Much as I cannot understand why the right to return and hereditary refugee status only applies to Palestinians, not Israelis.
Which ofcourse would also have to apply to both or it would just be hypocrazy/discrimination.
I am sure that some sort of compromise could be agreed if both parties were willing, for example that the colonies/settlements become part of the state they're in and some compensation is paid - though it must be remembered that Israelis evicted from Palestinian territory in 1948 never got any compensation so compensating only Palestinians for the land claimed by the settlements would be lopsided, but if that's what buys the peace... Also, any future Palestinian state should guarantee the safety and human rights of its Jewish citizens as well - because I cannot honestly see the international community sanctioning an ethnically clean state post-Yugoslavian Wars.
As a base, personally I'd opt for returnign to the pre 1967 borders and then negotiate about some changes (trades) in lands. Most settlements should be handed to the Palestinians though, unless they do not want them (or wish to trade for it, be compensated for it etc.).
Either side would probably still bitch about Jaruzalem though... so it's tempting to say "then no-one can have it" and declaring all sacred sights as neutral/international/independant territory.
Saying that Israel is behaving like the Nazis and that the Palestinians have no alternative to fighting is not really realistic. Fighting did not stop the violence in Northern Ireland, peaceful negotiations did. Israel would be unable to use violence on undisputably nonviolent protesters on a large scale, the outcry would be so big that the current debacle would be tiny in comparison. Qassams might be just a nuisance but they really do kill human beings, so many people find in hard to sympathize with their shooters. Civil disobedience and nonviolent protests might turn even people like me to support their cause. However, this would require nonviolence in the true Gandhi style, not in the "critical NGO" style that is practiced in G20/IMF/etc. meetings, and certainly not in the current Middle East style where there seems to be little difference between an outright riot and orderly demonstration.
Both sides have blood on their hands and have shown quite a lot of stubborn ness to put it lightly... but neither side seems too keen on making peace, not untill they atleast "payed the other one back for what they did, revenge!". Which only maintains the current enless circle of violence...
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Most of you are so biased against israel its like talking to a brick wall.
and on a side note, i DO support the removal of all illegal settlements, and think Netanyahu and his rightist party can go to hell.
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Criticizing Israel for being wrong in this Gaza blockade / handling of this flotilla =! Biased against israel / anti semetic
Common sense, compared to those who dont live in israel yet are so emotionally invested that they support all their actions at the cost of human life.
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You can critisize israel all you want, i wasnt talking about that.
i was talking about the fact that people on a "peace mission" dont stab, hit and shoot, and im sure that if they only had humanitarian aid on that ship, they wouldnt have minded israel checking the ship and letting it go on, or ask them to transfer the aid through israel (which israel eventually did).
there are dozens of pictures showing what they had on the ship (at least in the israeli media), you can see knifes, axes, poles, hamas and hezbollah flags (people on a peace mission shouldnt support any terror organizations, right?) not to mention the videos who show, among other things, lynching, fighting and throwing a commando from the bridge to a floor beneath.
Israel has said weeks ago that they would not let the ships pass to gaza, and the people on the ships said they wont use violence (at least not in these levels), and as you know, the moment the first soldier placed foot on the ship he got surrounded by 20 people hitting him with stuff, punching him and stuff. there is also a video which shows the "peaceful people" thorwing a firebomb at soldiers.
now you can think what you want, i really dont care.
sorry for the wall of text & have a nice day.
Edit: now hamas are not allowing the aid that came in the ship to enter gaza via israel.
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I support the idea to send a UN force to occupy the "holy" land
Then divide it South to North or West to East between Israeli and Palestina. Jeruzalem in the middle as a UN zone with UN goverment. Instead of all the illegal settlements.
Done.
Or we go back to the old deal:
(http://www.blikopdewereld.nl/Ontwikkeling/images/stories/routpalst/israel19%20route%20palest.jpg)
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I hate to repeat myself cause you obviously dont read and follow all the news or at least read this thread completely.
The point of this flotilla was
1. Deliver aid to gaza
2. Protest against the blockade
The reason why they didnt let Israel check is cause they dont have to. Cause the point of the protest is that Israel blocks entrance to Gaza which Israel has zero juristiction about.
Even if they would have let Israel check most of it wouldnt get to Gaza cause even stuff like construction material ( no one can deny they are in dire need of that ) and Coffee and many other things that have nothing remotely to do with being able to "support" hamas or make it stronger. Not to mention a statement by the UN says only 1/4th of whats needed for Gaza is let through by the Israelian authorities.
Warning the flotilla weeks beforehand does not make an illegal act suddenly legal as it was international waters, its like somaly pirates warning ships weeks before hand and anyone resisting the pirates who ends up dead was at fault himself.
And i do get tired of rediculing the term "peace activist", every single person in that flotilla did everything peaceful with the whole idea aiding civilians till the very moment israelian >commandos< stormed the ship, up to that moment everything the people involved in the flotilla have nothing to blame themself, they even have the right to defend their ship in international waters. Im not saying its ok to grab a stick ( official count was 3 sticks ) and beat up the soldiers initially even if its in their right, i dont know how i would have acted, all i know is when israelian soldiers come down from a helicopter while shots are being heard and teargas being shot im not gonna take my chance and raise my hands knowing i wont get executed. In the end the isrealian soldiers had the right to defend themself also, if shooting people with M4 carbines was the only solution ... i doubt it. But if you really thought >storming< a ship in the dark by military force on a ship with 600 people who panic would go by smoothly you live in a dreamworld.
And what is "support"? does a hamas or hezbollah flag warrant execution? does that mean anyone with a israelian flag in its room can be blown up? Does that mean all 600 people support a terror organisation? Also i hate the labels simple minded people use, Hamas gouvernment is a democraticly elected gouvernment controlled by election inspections. I dont pick sides between hamas or israelian gouvernment in the grand picture cause both are dispicable, but if you gonna call hamas names like terror organisation, then maybe you need to rethink your standards, cause last time i checked the amount of civilian life lost in this whole conflict or just the past 2 years is a multiple of that cause by hamas. Doesnt mean Hamas is any better, but i dont justify either bloodshed, compared to some on this very forum.
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Gas masks will be the end of Israel , on that note its not illegal to ship them to gaza, whatever israel thinks is legal or not doesnt matter cause gaza isnt israel.
Israel set the blockade, which is legal because they are in a state of armed conflict against Hamas. Because Israel set the blockade, Israel gets to decide what they allow through the blockade and what they don't.
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i dont see a war declaration, i can apply "conflict" to everything. Not to mention the UN has told Israel to quit the blockade.
Keep trying though megaraptor, dont forget to move to Israel and join the army so you can shoot them yourself.
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http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2010/06/02/magnay.lok.germany.flotilla.cnn
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177162
eye witness reports are adding up
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We already know those testimonies are complete lies. Plenty of footage was released, even by the extremists themselves.
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yes cause you were there , also how come out of dozen eye wittness reports i read about till now are telling the exact same thing , even numbers, you are gonna assume all of those 600 people with different cultures , nationality and languages somehow while in prison were able to communicate and synchronize their statements?
also the videos shown do not show how it started, nor the end.
And throwing labels around like "extremist" for aiding a civilian population.... i guess you can marry megaraptor, would make a great couple.
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Gaza flotilla attack: Israeli ambassador compares raid to Second World War
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7796277/Gaza-flotilla-attack-Israeli-ambassador-compares-raid-to-Second-World-War.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7796277/Gaza-flotilla-attack-Israeli-ambassador-compares-raid-to-Second-World-War.html)
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i dont see a war declaration, i can apply "conflict" to everything. Not to mention the UN has told Israel to quit the blockade.
If we take your point that Hamas is a legitimate government, Israel basically has a neighboring country that routinely launches artillery at it and is outspokenly against the Israeli nation's very existence. That is about as close to a declaration of war as you're going to get in modern times. If North Korea started firing on Seoul I don't think you'd argue that the countries aren't at war, correct?
Also, while I don't really support Israel's actions, I think they've shown a great deal of restraint on the matter. Ineffective as the rocket strikes on Israeli towns may be, it must put them in a great deal of political pressure to act(just think how you would feel if a foreign nation started firing on one of your nation's towns) yet they cannot respond in kind due to the massive outcry it would inevitable spawn. I can't imagine what I'd try to do if I were supposed to be the one finding a way out of the situation.
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1200 dead within a month shows great restraint.
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yes cause you were there , also how come out of dozen eye wittness reports i read about till now are telling the exact same thing , even numbers, you are gonna assume all of those 600 people with different cultures , nationality and languages somehow while in prison were able to communicate and synchronize their statements?
also the videos shown do not show how it started, nor the end.
And throwing labels around like "extremist" for aiding a civilian population.... i guess you can marry megaraptor, would make a great couple.
Witness reports.... lol... cause that's a reliable source. If this was a planned 'mission' with the known results, then these people were recruited frome some place (all with the same intentions) which ultimately leads to one organization that came up with the master plan. Then all these individual leaders/ recruites will "brief" them and tell them what to say when it goes down. They didn't necessarily communicate in prison...
maybe gas mask and balistc vest wont necessarily "destroy" Israel now, but once they are able to munipulate the UN (which has less authority than you may believe, and are also very...bias), and end blockades, then they will run the deadlier stuff in, little at a time, till it's too late and it will be full blown war....
F.Y.i...it was mentioned before, yes, ALL MEDIA is biased one way or the other. the young turks are just pathetic though...I absolutely can't stand them, most ignorant and naive people in the news.
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I'm going to drop my two cents into this, gentlemen. Usually I stay out of this sort of thing but on this occasion I hope what I say can settle some tempers.
Israel considers itself in a state of war. Being that it is in a state of war, it has decided to prevent as many weapons getting into the Gaza area as they can. This effort includes a sea blockade no different from the American "quarantine" of Cuba or the U-boat war to cut off Britain or the Allied blockade of Japan.
THAT BEING SAID!
They are cutting off a source of badly needed aid supplies with this blockade.
I am glad this event has shone light on this subject to the world.
That being said...
This is what you get when you try to run a military blockade. They were told to stop, they did not. You don't get to be the victim if you had a clear choice in the matter.
From a Navy perspective...
Boarding party work is extremely dangerous and scary. You have to board an unfamiliar ship that could easily contain a bunch of guys who will try to kill you. If someone jumps out or makes threatening gestures, these boarding parties do not screw around.
Hopefully...
Now Israel is talking about "easing" the blockade. This is a HUGE compromise by Israel's standards and perhaps it will show that non violent action will accomplish more than suicide bombing.
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yes cause you were there , also how come out of dozen eye wittness reports i read about till now are telling the exact same thing , even numbers, you are gonna assume all of those 600 people with different cultures , nationality and languages somehow while in prison were able to communicate and synchronize their statements?
also the videos shown do not show how it started, nor the end.
And throwing labels around like "extremist" for aiding a civilian population.... i guess you can marry megaraptor, would make a great couple.
Witness reports.... lol... cause that's a reliable source. If this was a planned 'mission' with the known results, then these people were recruited frome some place (all with the same intentions) which ultimately leads to one organization that came up with the master plan. Then all these individual leaders/ recruites will "brief" them and tell them what to say when it goes down. They didn't necessarily communicate in prison...
maybe gas mask and balistc vest wont necessarily "destroy" Israel now, but once they are able to munipulate the UN (which has less authority than you may believe, and are also very...bias), and end blockades, then they will run the deadlier stuff in, little at a time, till it's too late and it will be full blown war....
F.Y.i...it was mentioned before, yes, ALL MEDIA is biased one way or the other. the young turks are just pathetic though...I absolutely can't stand them, most ignorant and naive people in the news.
just wow dude... just wow.... you gave me a rant about media is biased ( whenever its not what you want to hear ) that has completely nothing to do with what i posted.
Dunno why i even respond to you, but im talking about eye witnesses, people who were ON THE BOAT and SAW IT HAPPEN, there is nothing biased about it, its either true facts or complete lies.
And what a conspirancy theory you came up with, so German members of parlement , Belgian aid workers and 600 other people got recruited through a secret network of terrorists who work for hamas and they knew what would happen exactly so they told everyone in detail what to tell the press but only you somehow realize that! not to mention there were more than likely mossad informants on those boats so if this was an evil terrorist plan from the start which is very very highly unlikely we would have heard about it before this whole thing even escalated.
That said i wont bother to respond to your posts anymore, its one thing to be a racist like megaraptor and jerk off to brown colored people getting killed by the thousands but its another to have a personality disorder and to live in a fantasy world and actually believe every word you write. I dont mind having a discussion and i would have it with Bush and Stalin, no matter how criminal they are, but not with someone being so full of himself while actually knowing nothing about this world and making up excuses that excist in your fantasy world.
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yes cause you were there , also how come out of dozen eye wittness reports i read about till now are telling the exact same thing , even numbers, you are gonna assume all of those 600 people with different cultures , nationality and languages somehow while in prison were able to communicate and synchronize their statements?
also the videos shown do not show how it started, nor the end.
And throwing labels around like "extremist" for aiding a civilian population.... i guess you can marry megaraptor, would make a great couple.
Witness reports.... lol... cause that's a reliable source. If this was a planned 'mission' with the known results, then these people were recruited frome some place (all with the same intentions) which ultimately leads to one organization that came up with the master plan. Then all these individual leaders/ recruites will "brief" them and tell them what to say when it goes down. They didn't necessarily communicate in prison...
maybe gas mask and balistc vest wont necessarily "destroy" Israel now, but once they are able to munipulate the UN (which has less authority than you may believe, and are also very...bias), and end blockades, then they will run the deadlier stuff in, little at a time, till it's too late and it will be full blown war....
F.Y.i...it was mentioned before, yes, ALL MEDIA is biased one way or the other. the young turks are just pathetic though...I absolutely can't stand them, most ignorant and naive people in the news.
just wow dude... just wow.... you gave me a rant about media is biased ( whenever its not what you want to hear ) that has completely nothing to do with what i posted.
Dunno why i even respond to you, but im talking about eye witnesses, people who were ON THE BOAT and SAW IT HAPPEN, there is nothing biased about it, its either true facts or complete lies.
And what a conspirancy theory you came up with, so German members of parlement , Belgian aid workers and 600 other people got recruited through a secret network of terrorists who work for hamas and they knew what would happen exactly so they told everyone in detail what to tell the press but only you somehow realize that! not to mention there were more than likely mossad informants on those boats so if this was an evil terrorist plan from the start which is very very highly unlikely we would have heard about it before this whole thing even escalated.
That said i wont bother to respond to your posts anymore, its one thing to be a racist like megaraptor and jerk off to brown colored people getting killed by the thousands but its another to have a personality disorder and to live in a fantasy world and actually believe every word you write. I dont mind having a discussion and i would have it with Bush and Stalin, no matter how criminal they are, but not with someone being so full of himself while actually knowing nothing about this world and making up excuses that excist in your fantasy world.
Hehe, alright buddy ;) you'll respond again, you can't resist...has Meadow been sending you PMs? :D altough, to think I live in a fantasy world is the funniest part. To me it looks like you have a hard time accepting death no matter who they are or what they are... truth of the matter is, no matter how horrible, how sad, or how disruptive it is...it happens, and it can't be avoided, and sometimes it's even necessary...so you don't misinterpret me, like you do a lot...this doesn't mean i'm cold and hearltess and promote death, cause...well, simply i'm none of those. Just a realist that sees the world for what it is. Saying that there are terrorist that plan opperations and carry them out globally is a consipracy? Since when? There are recruiters for Hamas, Al-Qaeda, and other terrorist organization globally, even inside the United States. It's sad the number of people they can brain wash....That being the likely case for those people on board with an innocent claim of "ohh, we're going to help these poor civilians in dire need" is most likey a cop out that will make "bleeding - hearts" like yourself sympathize with them...so yes, they are probably lieing, you need witnesses from both sides, your only listening to one.
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Hehe, alright buddy ;) you'll respond again, you can't resist...has Meadow been sending you PMs? :D
Please explain this remark.
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Your comments are virtually in the identical tone...so just wondering if you have been plotting with him on his response and his choice to ignore me. ;) Nothing really negatory....
News update:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37477182/ns/world_news-europe
What did I say, this is why i'm arrogant. my politics are generally correct.
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Hmmm, seems like liking something with al-Qaida makes any response valid.
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There is reservation and there is willing blindness. That is a well thought out article that clearly describes links between terrorists and the Turkish aid foundation that was responsible for the ship and it's contents. Period.
You dont have to be clear voyant to predict a link like this showing up somewhere, it was pretty obvious what the goal of the 'blockade buster' was. It was a political statement, with a result that could only lead to either illegal goods being smuggled in or at worst hundreds of ships using the void left by Israel if they would not have responded with force as they did. And these hundreds of ships would also want to land without control, in the end guaranteeing tons of weapons being transported into a volatile region. Great.
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Y'all making to much fuss about this. The boats and the people on it did what they were suppose to do, deliver goods and a political statement.
The Israel command fell in the trap, doing exactly what they are predicted to do.
End results : 10 dead people and many wounded, VN denouncement of Israel's actions, Possible blockade lifting of Gaza, Good PR for Palestinian situation.
I don't know what Israel got out of this situation except more political isolation and a chance to look through the goods of the ship.
Also don't blame the Israeli boarding party, but blame the idiot's who told them to go there!
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anyways whoever is right or wrong:
to me the attemp to board the ships looks dilettantish.
seems like the operation plan was made by toddlers painted with crayons on
the wall of the livingroom.
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Regarding the most recent attempt... :
Israeli troops take over Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie
Israeli troops say they have taken control of an aid ship trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Israel's military says soldiers boarded the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie from the sea and did not meet any resistance.
It says the ship is now being taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod. There has been no word from those on board.
Israel says it will question those on board at the port and transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.
There are five Irish and six Malaysian pro-Palestinian activists, plus several crew, on the boat.
The Rachel Corrie is named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested over house demolitions in Gaza in 2003.
Israel has blockaded Gaza since 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement seized control of the territory.
'Full compliance'
The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.
An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".
The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said.
The sea-borne mission has been organised by the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, a coalition of pro-Palestinian groups and human rights organisations.
A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza Movement, Greta Berlin, said Israel's takeover of the ship was "another outrage to add to the nine murdered", the Associated Press news agency reported.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the group of hypocrisy, saying "While they appear to use the language of human rights in, their propaganda, it appears they have embraced the [Hamas] regime that has no respect for human rights whatsoever," AP said.
The Rachel Corrie is carrying hundreds of tonnes of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and cement. Construction materials are banned from entering Gaza by Israel, which says they could be used for military purposes by Hamas.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm
*facepalms*
If the ship has been checked by a reliable harbour authority then all that would be required, at best (worst?) would be an inspection themselves in national, Israeli, waters before allowing the ship to dock in Gaza?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfIN0-ccM28
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ
Might wish to post the "uneditted" (verification from multiple sources would be nice) instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dE2StbDL_Q
The comments from the convoy aren't really political correct but I'm not suprised if you sail in there with a "fuck you and your illegal blockage" attitude. I'd be tempted to go tell them to go fuck themselves myself.
Edit: To clearify: I'd tell them that I'd let them search the cargo as soon as the ship would enter their national waters, be it under protest, and ensuring them that no illegal items such as weapons or explosives would be onboard, but that I'd continue by heading towards Gaza port as the local auhorities of Gaza have granted me permission and I will not honour an illegal blockade to convistace or hijack my ship and it's contents.
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Getting sick and tired of the religious fanatics that lie there, shot and wounded in a hospital, saying they would return any time for Hamas and what not.
Fine, heroic and all...if not for Turkeys own surpression of the Kurds now, and Armenians in the past. They dont give a damn about them, since it is their own country inflicting the damage 'israel-style'. This hypocritical blindness for ones own wrong-doings seems to be triggered by everything 'Israel related', like a red flag acts on a bull.
I'm quite venomously anti-religios, that *includes* israel as a military and political entity. But I cant see the justice in the Turkish protesters on these ships, with their one sided blindness for evils commited. Bah.
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I dont know too much about the situation, but isnt there possible to search the ships for weapons as a normal control. Instead of killing everyone. But since they block food and medicines and everything it only reveals how assholes they are. Keeping the palestinians behind these walls with no food or medicines like they should be dogs.
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I dont know too much about the situation
You don't know much about the situation but you immediately draw your conclusion that the Israeli's are assholes? They put up that blockade so they can control palestine import so they're sure Hamas won't get any weapons or supplies. Ships with basic aid supplies can easily steam ahead IF they get their vessel searched, but some provoking hippies though it would be fun to go smash up the boarding team. No wonder they received some bullets in return.
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You don't know much about the situation but you immediately draw your conclusion that the Israeli's are assholes? They put up that blockade so they can control palestine import so they're sure Hamas won't get any weapons or supplies. Ships with basic aid supplies can easily steam ahead IF they get their vessel searched, but some provoking hippies though it would be fun to go smash up the boarding team. No wonder they received some bullets in return.
Really? It seems otherwise, quoting my earleir post here:
Israeli troops take over Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie
Israeli troops say they have taken control of an aid ship trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Israel's military says soldiers boarded the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie from the sea and did not meet any resistance.
It says the ship is now being taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod. There has been no word from those on board.
Israel says it will question those on board at the port and transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.
There are five Irish and six Malaysian pro-Palestinian activists, plus several crew, on the boat.
The Rachel Corrie is named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested over house demolitions in Gaza in 2003.
Israel has blockaded Gaza since 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement seized control of the territory.
'Full compliance'
The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.
An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".
The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said.
The sea-borne mission has been organised by the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, a coalition of pro-Palestinian groups and human rights organisations.
A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza Movement, Greta Berlin, said Israel's takeover of the ship was "another outrage to add to the nine murdered", the Associated Press news agency reported.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the group of hypocrisy, saying "While they appear to use the language of human rights in, their propaganda, it appears they have embraced the [Hamas] regime that has no respect for human rights whatsoever," AP said.
The Rachel Corrie is carrying hundreds of tonnes of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and cement. Construction materials are banned from entering Gaza by Israel, which says they could be used for military purposes by Hamas.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm
^ Which probably means they will confiscate the concrete and plenty of other items (build materials etc.), as those aren't allowed in either...
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Sure it's strict, but that's not my point. My point is that their import blockade has its reasons, and is not just for bullying the palistines.
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Well i said it wrong. Based on this and many other earlier occasions i draw the conclusion that israeli politics regarding the palestinians is violent and discriminating. As i said idont know much about this situation, but i know i wasnt surprised to hear something new crazy stuff from that region mentioning Israel... again. Though on the other hand i can understand the palestinians are not easy to live with either, but Israel often choose very brutal methods of solving their problems.
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Israel has a fundamental right to defend themselves against any extremist threat from Gaza or around the World. They have been provoked many times, assaulted, and discriminated against. I know that a large majority of America supports Israel and Netanyahu and I do to. The blatant attacks by Palestinians, Turks, and appeasers has gone too far. They are comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany which is completely uncalled for and pathetic. They shouldnt be speaking bc they are the ones who want to knock the Jews and Israels of the Earth and many, like the crazy moron Ahmadinejad deny the holocaust ever existed. shame on them!
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Israel has a fundamental right to defend themselves against any extremist threat from Gaza or around the World. They have been provoked many times, assaulted, and discriminated against. I know that a large majority of America supports Israel and Netanyahu and I do to. The blatant attacks by Palestinians, Turks, and appeasers has gone too far. They are comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany which is completely uncalled for and pathetic. They shouldnt be speaking bc they are the ones who want to knock the Jews and Israels of the Earth and many, like the crazy moron Ahmadinejad deny the holocaust ever existed. shame on them!
Turks 'blatantley' attacked Israel? How come I wasnt notified! And Turks want to knock down all the Jews too? hahahaha why not just call us suicide bombers while you're at it? Turks have never done anything wrong to the jews, on the contrary we've always been friendly with them :P
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I wondered too. The turks were supposed to be one of the closest partners of the Israelis in the eastern Mediterranean the last time I checked, but I guess I missed something.
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I wondered too. The turks were supposed to be one of the closest partners of the Israelis in the eastern Mediterranean the last time I checked, but I guess I missed something.
We were Israel's closest friend in the region, up until Operation Cast Lead. I still support Turkish-Israeli relations, and im hoping things will be friendly again. I blame Erdoğan, that twat.
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Latest news....
Three of the Turkish victims killed in the action were on a mission to martyrdom. Their relatives said so in news interviews. I think that clears it up nicely what the intentions were of the so called 'peaceful' protests on the ships...
For who doesnt understand what I just said : The family of three of the victims told the news that the victims wanted to get themselves killed in the name of Allah to get eternal blessings and a lot of virgins.
As a sidenote, several of the killed persons were also member of IHH aid organisation that has been linked to Al-qaeda people repeatedly, used by them for 'covert' aid funding to terrorist and anti-american initiatives.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/article1385329.ece/Turken_Gazakonvooi_wilden_sterven_als_martelaar
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It is fact that alot of the Turks that were on that ship were radical Islamists... I never got the point of martyrdom and a shitload of virgins hahaha.
EDIT:
Shit, these 'humanitarians' had some balls.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
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It is fact that alot of the Turks that were on that ship were radical Islamists... I never got the point of martyrdom and a shitload of virgins hahaha.
EDIT:
Shit, these 'humanitarians' had some balls.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
What do the captions of these pictures say? Why do they have the Israelis below decks?
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I again recommend people read the Goldstone Report on Gaza when you get the free time.
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm)
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It is fact that alot of the Turks that were on that ship were radical Islamists... I never got the point of martyrdom and a shitload of virgins hahaha.
EDIT:
Shit, these 'humanitarians' had some balls.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
Good to hear you support the Israelis Tolga. I really hope the Kemalists will ost the current party soon....
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Pfft, yeah Stefan, who hit that nail on the head? ...i'm sorry but your kind of naive, the world isn't as simple as it seems. ::)
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Meadow, Oddball is just an internet persona, why take it so seriously if he takes other lightly?
I know a lot of guy who had the feeling of "those were the days" and thinks that "the good days are gone" and believe in Disney-like family value, etc etc. Of course most of them are just older guys who have "different taste", but often exaggerates their opinion. Do they always feel higher above others? Mostly... especially the younger they are, the more abrasive.
For me, you (Meadow) who supports British Labour party is a clear left-centrist, and Oddball is extremely right, which were saddening of how well-patterned you both are. You are a human with free mind, but you choose a particular "set of believes" for yourself and meet almost all the "rightist" and "lest-centrist" stereotype..
My 2 cents here is simply not taking sides. The peace activists were extreme hippies with some prejudice against Israel for what they have done. And the Israelis were paranoid, and they often shield themselves under their "Nazi victim" label, what a sissy. Being a massacre victim doesn't instantly grant them the right for license to kill and set up ghettos. The ruling faction of Palestines are blind-faith gangster, who wants nothing other than personal glory... their religion is only a tool to gain support, since they sell drugs and counterfeit products (which both are "haram"/unlawful according to the religion).
It's a bad investment to believe in any of them.
Last Tuesday, those Muslim organizations across Indonesia gathered nearby the National Monument square and set up one of the biggest protest they ever held in the city. It makes me wonder why the stupid Americans choose to set up their embassy nearby.
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News update: Iran claims to use it's Guard to protect ships going through Gaza, well this will be fun.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37537320
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For everyone who wants some objective, honest analysis of the motivations of Turkey (as in, political elements, not the nation as a whole) should take some five minutes to read the following :
Erdogan and the Decline of the Turks
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704875604575281392195250402.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704875604575281392195250402.html)
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News update: Iran claims to use it's Guard to protect ships going through Gaza, well this will be fun.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37537320
Yay there we go, I'm gonna go dig a nuclear shelter now.
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News update: Iran claims to use it's Guard to protect ships going through Gaza, well this will be fun.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37537320
Yay there we go, I'm gonna go dig a nuclear shelter now.
Haha, if we avoided a nuclear war in the 60's, there is no escape this time! Get digging laddies! :D
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Besides that I think that this will not escalate into large scale warfare that soon (very important people need to do the exact opposite of what is rational, safe and smart for the world and themselves at this point for that to happen) I´m quite confident that even in the event that a war is started, it cannot escalate far.
Simple reason is that irregardless of anti israel sentiments in part of the world, there are huge military and political powers all around the middle east that have no link to islam religion whatsoever, and will benefit from containing the islam sphere of influence to the current borders.
Russia with its orthodox christian background, although no fans of Judaism, have nothing to gain with the growth of islam. (considering Tsjetsjenia and other such situations).
India should not even need explaining with their continuous struggle with the islamic Pakistan.
China, although culturally distant from both Israel and the muslim countries, has serious troubles of it´s own with the islamic ethnicities (for example the numerous Turkic population) within its border, and their strive for independence. And probably will choose to either stay neutral or participate autonomously in anti islamic military or political actions. Or even try to occupy some neighboring state in the turmoil.
Europe and America are obvious. Southern America will probably stay out of this since they have little vested interests and lack the military power to really participate.
Africa simply does not have the military or financial means to hit a dent in a pack of butter, and the many of the oil producing states in the middle east both have no military to speak of and lack the will to trade their oil dollars or euro´s for just the blessing of Allah, as much as they want to get rid of Israel.
Leaves Turkey as the interesting potential catalyst in some future middle east based war. I think their military at this stage is not sufficiently brainwashed to religious standards of Erdogan to be allowed to use it as the power sledgehammer it could be. Besides this, Turkey also knows that it does not matter how many billions of well trained troops you have in the field (which arguably is Turkeys main advantage over the average army, besides that it is experienced and well organised) ...in the air they cannot match to Israel´s airforce. They do have the naval advantage, which however is useless if you don´t control the air.
But mostly, I find it highly unlikely that the Turkish people suddenly start to love Arabs. I just don´t see it happening, irregardless of how much they hate Israel. Even if they can be politically forced to go to war, a great deal of the army will not be happy to do it, and I can even picture a major army coup ocurring. And erdogan knows this, he cannot push his cards that far out...he needs at least another ten years to reform the current army and the mentality of the public to allow for siding with Arabs.
My $0.02
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Intresting points, although Iran would try to start something unless they had something to prove...like their nuclear capabilities... and if they fire, the 'free' world fires, and it escalates like that. It doesn't have to be a long war to devastating. Kind of similar to the situation during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Not to mention it wont just be Iran firing, They will probably be supported by North Korea, which i'm also sure have nuclear capabilities... then they have the rest of the Islamic state....Afghanistan, Palestine, Africa (which you mentioned, but they could be supplied necessary equiptment), Iraq, Pakistan (which def. has nuclear weapons, and maybe wont ally with Iran and other Islamic extremist controlled areas, however, it is right next to them and if they lose control, the enemy have access to more nukes...), and other such countries.
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Yes well, WWII also started when most of the war declaring countries (France, England) weren't ready for war at all. I mean, sure it's not radical, but wars have been fought for less. With a bit of bad luck one small incident can unleash a chain of events like in WWI and have this argument escalate into a big war.
Let's hope that Turkish arse and Iran get their brains back and just calm the hell down.
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We can scrap Korea from the equation simply because they are too remote, and completely isolated by sea, land and air. I doubt they can launch rockets over Indian space without getting into serious trouble, irregardless if the missile will not fail above a number of islamic territories before it tries to reach the spec of land called Israel on the other side of the planet.
Africa can only deliver ground troops, but there is no sustainable infrastructure to train and transport hundreds of thousands of pro islam troops to the middle east or elsewhere. Perhaps if we look at North Africa only, there is one exception which is Libya. However looking at the changes past decade, we can be 99.9% sure that undr the rule of Gaddafi there will be no participation in any arab/israel war. Not only are western relations with Libya at a record level, Gadaffi is trying to follow a stable course for himself and his sparsely populated country. At best, he can muster some poorly equipped 150,000 troops (that is with approx. 35% reserves!).
Afghanistan will be torn apart by internal turmoil when the various tribes and the newly formed and western trained military will be without the support and control of the west. I dont see how that country can do anything significant without western aid or consent, for at least another decade.
Leaves Pakistan (occupied with and afraid of India), Iran (main force), Turkey (unlikely on military level), Palestine (check), perhaps Egypt, Syria ...
Nothing we´ve not seen before.
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Egypt could become a serious threat to Israel when Mubarak dies, depending on who replaces him.
Iran was and is a serious threat by proxy (supplying and training Hezbollah, Hamas, etc), but the threat is mitigated from the lack of a land border with Israel.
Syria is a broken down country, but with major North Korean/Iranian aid could become a major threat as well.
As for the other major mideast countries, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan are all American allies which need American support, and therefore can't go attacking other American allies. Same goes for Egypt under Mubarak.
Jordan is more scared of the Palestinians than they are of Israel, so they aren't a threat.
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Good to hear you support the Israelis Tolga. I really hope the Kemalists will ost the current party soon....
Hehe, as far as I know CHP (Mustafa Kemal's party) is currently leading in numbers... We'll just have to wait till the elections.
Let's hope that Turkish arse and Iran get their brains back and just calm the hell down.
He might be a 'Turkish arse' but at least he has balls, which is something even the Americans lack when it comes to Israel.
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Good to hear you support the Israelis Tolga. I really hope the Kemalists will ost the current party soon....
Hehe, as far as I know CHP (Mustafa Kemal's party) is currently leading in numbers... We'll just have to wait till the elections.
Let's hope that Turkish arse and Iran get their brains back and just calm the hell down.
He might be a 'Turkish arse' but at least he has balls, which is something even the Americans lack when it comes to Israel.
americans can't do anything to israeli because hitler.
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americans can't do anything to israeli because hitler.
I think that might be slightly, ever so slightly oversimplifieng the situation.
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It is fact that alot of the Turks that were on that ship were radical Islamists... I never got the point of martyrdom and a shitload of virgins hahaha.
EDIT:
Shit, these 'humanitarians' had some balls.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
What do the captions of these pictures say? Why do they have the Israelis below decks?
A note on that. The first wave of Israeli's came aboard the ship by zodiac, after the activists said that they would let them on board. As the israeli soldiers climbed up a rope ladder one by one, each was in turn grabbed by the activists, beaten, at least one stabbed, and then dragged below decks to a "detention center" and put under guard. The video of the helocoptor fast rope was actually the next wave that went in with paint ball guns and holstered pistols to try and get it under control, and get their guys out. They were, as the video shows quote clearly, immdietly set upon and beaten with pipes and chairs, one being thrown overboard, and the rest finally stuggling to their feet and began to open fire with the paint ball guns (clearly paintball guns in the video judging from the giant cylinder on top of them). The activists then threw a fire bomb and a flash grenade, sewing confusion in the israeli ranks, followed by them hearing gunshots (presumably guns taken off of the captured israelis below decks). They naturally returned fire:
http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk#p/c/D367B77C57326D3E/4/mFGuwUGaI9o
http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk#p/c/D367B77C57326D3E
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Wait, so they went in armed with paintball guns AFTER several IDF commandos had already been beaten, stabbed and taken hostage?
Seems like an even less wise tactical decision than it seemed before.
I maintain, if US Navy SEALs had been used there would have been 4x as many dead people and 1/4 the international outrage.
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Wait, so they went in armed with paintball guns AFTER several IDF commandos had already been beaten, stabbed and taken hostage?
Seems like an even less wise tactical decision than it seemed before.
I maintain, if US Navy SEALs had been used there would have been 4x as many dead people and 1/4 the international outrage.
If Navy SEALs were there, they would of killed everyone on board, and sunk the ship, problem solved.... ;)
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Nah, you're thinkiing of rhe russians.
And they used paintball guns for the specific purpose of non-lethality. Israel was trying to avoid killing anyone, but in the end they sorta had to for self defense. I defy any of you, especially if you watch that first vid of the audio of the israeli soldiers, to have acted differently in the dark morning with people attacking and trying to kill you, and gun shots going off.
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How come, everytime i click these trusted sources, i get on a website felt with ads, commercials and other with a tiny bit of writing?
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How come, everytime i click these trusted sources, i get on a website felt with ads, commercials and other with a tiny bit of writing?
http://bahun.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/The-Evolution-of-Online-Journalism.jpg
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Welcome to 2010. The hotter the content, the more advertisement you will see.
The reason for this is simple : Hot content = lots of visitors = high exposure of advertisements = income.
From the other side : Hot content = lots of visitors = high bandwith usage = spendings.
Spendings need Income to compensate. Hence, hot content often needs advertisement to sustain it unless its from a major major major news website.
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Ofc i know how come:) but ******* and others keep posting links with sources wich are completly unreliable and are obviously not ment for information. Just wanted to be... well.. i dunno how its called but i read through this thread and its bull.
Haha: comments from fucktards nitpicking insignificant bits of the story ;D.
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It seems like we have one Nazi Germany close to Europe, so close, that it can participate in the Eurovision and the Euro league (basketball).
Short quiz:
Which country has undeclared nuclear weapons? (some 50-80 warheads, ant that's definitely not IRAN)
Which country for 40 years has declined UN inspection and openly defies its resolutions? (not Iran, believe me!)
Which country on a constant basis kills, maims, kidnaps and holds special rendition to civilians within the defiance of the human rights and the Geneva convention?
Which country attacks humanitarian aid ships in the international water and other humanitarian aid buildings such as schools, shelters, hospitals?
Which country did attack USS liberty and almost sank it? (Not Vietnam)
Which country does it and for all these merits, receives funding from the US government some $3 bln /year.
Gaza is a Palestinian Ghetto, which as shamefully as it sounds has much resemblance to ww2 ghettoes.
As Achmedinejad said, the Zionist regime is counting its last days and thats true, because you cant always get away when bombing UN shelters (Lebanon 2006), UN schools (GAZA), USS ships (Liberty), NATO Ships (recent incidents) and killing, maiming or holding in a concentration camps some hundreds of thousands humans.
Its Israel that is a problem, not some guys in Khandakhar or Basrah, seriously. If its not for the Israel, our taxpayer money would not subsidise occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
Ran out of valid arguements? :(
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(http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/6a00e553a9e7ec8834011168a2382f970c-800wi.jpg)
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
Unlike militaryphotos forum we allow discussion and facts, if you want an echochamber to jerk off to dead brown people this is the wrong place for you.
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
Unlike militaryphotos forum we allow discussion and facts,
Yes, "facts." But ottozeimers's post contains few of those.
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
Unlike militaryphotos forum we allow discussion and facts,
Yes, "facts." But ottozeimers's post contains few of those.
Those are true. Or are you living in a empty fuel barrel in middle of nowhere?
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@ Ottozeimer : All true points. I hope you do understand that the 'defence' of Israel in this thread is based on this specific incident, and has more to do with trying to reveal the true intentions of the 'peaceful ships with cargo'.
On all points you mention (Well except the sinking of the Liberty which can still be seen as one huge fuckup in wartime but has very little to do with all the other stuff) I fully agree, and I think many people who defended Israel's actions in this thread.
Anyways, it is somewhat outside of the scope of this topic, but certainly true.
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Guess who's a bigot on the FH Forums? (Hint: name begins with "o", ends with "ttozeimer")
Unlike militaryphotos forum we allow discussion and facts, if you want an echochamber to jerk off to dead brown people this is the wrong place for you.
Wow, where did that come from?
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Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.
Armed forces boarded the largest vessel overnight, clashing with some of the 500 people on board.
It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters.
Israel says its soldiers were shot at and attacked with weapons; the activists say Israeli troops came on board shooting.
The European Union has called for an inquiry to establish what happened.
'Guns and knives'
The six-ship flotilla, carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid, left the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday.
Israel says its soldiers boarded the lead ship in the early hours but were attacked with axes, knives, bars and at least two guns.
"Unfortunately this group were dead-set on confrontation," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC.
Organisers of the flotilla said at least 30 people were wounded in the incident. Israel says 10 of its soldiers were injured, one seriously.
(...)
He accused the convoy of a "premeditated and outrageous provocation", describing the flotilla as an "armada of hate".
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas condemned Israel's actions, saying it had committed a massacre.
Most of the people on board the boats were Turkish.
Turkey said it "strongly condemn[ed] these inhumane practices of Israel", AFP news agency reported.
In Turkey, dozens of protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in the Istanbul, while Israeli ambassadors have been summoned to the Turkish, Greek and Spanish foreign ministries to explain what happened.
Blockade
Israel had repeatedly said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".
Israel and Egypt tightened a blockade of Gaza after the Islamist movement Hamas took power there in 2007.
Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.
But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.
The incident comes a day before Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is due to meet US President Barack Obama in Washington after one of the most strained periods in US-Israeli relations in years.
Source: BBC News - Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm)
Seems like the situation escalated, to say the least, because the ships would't stop. If the cargo has been checked and only contains aid material, then I don't see why they wouldn't let the aid reach palestinian controlled land. Such blockades don't exactly encourage to come to a concensus, if anything it polarizes the parties involved...
I don't ahve anything against jews, but the Izraelian ppl think they can do everything just because the Usa is protecting them,
While The gaza stroke is starving they are shooting ppl in the head on peacefull ships.
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Yeah, a peaceful ship that stabbed and beat them, and they only pulled real guns when they were fired on.
Very peaceful.
How come that didn't happen on the other ships. ::)
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Peaceful my ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM)
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I think ottozeimer sounds very reasonable. It is a limit of how much shit you can do to other people before we civilized countries should react. First Israel have stolen almost half of the palestinian land, now theyre surpressing the people in the leftover land. Its a war. Germans were kicked out when they occupied countries in 1940, why isnt Israel kicked out now for occupying a country. I dont really see why hamaz is so bad either. In ww2 allied bombers deliberately killed civilian germans in such huge numbers so hamaz couldnt even dream of achieving the same if they would exist for 1000 years. They just try to win back their nation, i guess like the french freedom fighters in ww2. When we judge hamaz we forget about the terrible things we did ourselves after ww2, when innocent german kids were beaten, and mocked their hole lives, and sometimes even killed. If someone occupied my country, and maybe killed many in my family, i wouldnt hesitate by doing what the hamaz do.
Its noteworthy that if you kill 5 and hurt 15 civilians with a bomb youre a criminal terrorist, but if you burn to death and kill 1000 with a bomb from a plane then youre a hero. Or, if you tie explosives to your own body, sacrifice your life in the blow, then youre a coward. But if you sit in a plane 10 000 feet over the ground, pushing a button in your plane, to kill someone who dont even have a chance of fighting back, then youre a brave american or israeli hero.
regarding the videos in the previous post... of course they fight back. Are they not boarded in international waters ? Then these israel soldiers have no more value than a somalian pirate.
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Peaceful my ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM)
I saw that footage on the news. (Gvien free by the Israelic army i doubt it's rea. but anyways).
I als o heard that multiple shot were already shot by the army and i woulld fight back 2.
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First Israel have stolen almost half of the palestinian land, now theyre surpressing the people in the leftover land. Its a war. Germans were kicked out when they occupied countries in 1940, why isnt Israel kicked out now for occupying a country.
So in other words you want a campaign of ethnic cleansing to remove Jews from the middle east.
Yeah, real nice move there. And you're calling other people Nazis?
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I just place it as shit happens.
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Am i a nazi since i mean the jews should get out of the lands given to palestinians by UN in 1947 or whenever it was?
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Cause it makes alot more sense to regard palistenians as subhumans and bomb them to crap while taking over more and more of their land, the walls you see build on tv are build not on the border between israel and the west bank, but inside the westbank.
Oh and watch the simple minded folks throwing around labels :) thats when you know you won the moral highground.
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Indeed. Its quite annoying to be called nazi for something like this. I would rather think its nazi to occupy a country and think its perfectly ok. But its not that simple thankfully, the first one to call the other nazi win the argument.
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Am i a nazi since i mean the jews should get out of the lands given to palestinians by UN in 1947 or whenever it was?
Ehhh... Yeah, that's actually pretty racist...
Now, if you said the Israeli government should cede the lands to Palestinian rule that's fine, but it's pretty messed up to say Jews can't live there just because they're Jewish.
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Fine, thats what i meant. Israeli illegal occupants. I thought they were the jews. Sorry.
Even by saying some occupants should get away from the illegaly occupied zone, can be turned into racistic here.
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What do you define as "illegally occupied land"?
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well ill give you some 101 in discussions, when someone throws a label at you ( thats when you know they are out of ideas and are raging inside and want to belittle you ) you have them define the words they use against you.
So when someone calls you a racist , you ask them to define the word racist , which means hating someone cause of their race/color in short.
Then you simply explain that 1. you dont care what religion/color etc they are 2. you dont hate them 3. that you want them to reverse an illegal act by which alot of problems on both sides will be solved.
In the end you know what side is more believable when actual facts are presented compared to name calling , for example calling people on a boat terrorists for shipping humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Oh btw what kinda of label would the simple minded use when an israely soldier is shot 1 time in the chest and 4 times in the head?
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Guys, I think the boarding of this specific ship and the actions of both sides is the real subject of this topic.
Irregardless of the badass reputation or history of Israel (which indeed generally isn't pretty) I would say that in this occasion radicalised Islamists were willingly seeking a confrontation to make marters out of themselves. The current available evidence (both from videos of Turkish and Israelian source) makes that quite clear.
Any country would have done exactly the same (Afaik the ships were either on the verge of entering International waters, or already in Israelian waters) . Check out the radio communications, they are very decent from Israelian side and *quite* indecent from the aidship's side referring to 9/11 and other such matters.
I am perfectly fine with pointing fingers at Israel any time of the day, but this specific instance is just not one of them whatever way I look at it. They were in their full right to board the ships (remember, Israelian waters or on the verge of entering them). They were in their full right to return fire (which is how it looks at this moment). And the boarding ships were FAR from innocent in nature, as is seen on videos and photos from a turkish sources (which should show a best case scenario, but dont).
Nazi Germany wasn't exactly the nicest, but I think everyone agrees that twisting history to 'just put some more blame on the already evil Germans' is not the right thing to do.
I see a similar thing happen with this case happening right now. And for those who keep holding hands above the corrupt Hamas regime ....remove the flaps from your eyes. Hamas has done many evil things, not perse to Israelians but as well to their own people and are a criminal organisation that is benefitting tremendously from the current status quo to preserve their power and control the flow of aid money and goods.
Period.
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Cause it makes alot more sense to regard palistenians as subhumans and bomb them to crap while taking over more and more of their land, the walls you see build on tv are build not on the border between israel and the west bank, but inside the westbank.
Oh and watch the simple minded folks throwing around labels :) thats when you know you won the moral highground.
I knew you'd come back....and no one is reguarding palestinians, just thier motives are acts are proposterous and shoudl be noted as such cruel acts which make them seem as vicious and uncivil as they are. Prove to me where we are taking more of their land, as discussed 1,000 times we have offered to give it back, they denied it wasn't enough, start to fuck with Israel, get thier asses handed to them, and now you pitty them? What do you expect Israel to do, pack up and leave the land that is rightfully theirs, because a group of inhumane people expect them to and keep bombing and terrorizing them if they don't? You want Israel to just shrug it off and pretend all the killings don't happen, but doom on Israel if they decide to serve Justice? So naive...
Simple minded folks lol, please...is that even an insult anymore?
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
It is....http://www.bluetruth.net/2007/10/israel-state-of-jewish-people-and.html
And the Cheerokee can live in Tennessee if they want, besides, they are more understanding and are more than generously compromised. As it is now, it's for the majority, and no one is starting a war out of this.
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
It is....http://www.bluetruth.net/2007/10/israel-state-of-jewish-people-and.html
And the Cheerokee can live in Tennessee if they want, besides, they are more understanding and are more than generously compromised. As it is now, it's for the majority, and no one is starting a war out of this.
Your source for that is fundamentalist jewish website? Yeah. We want Karelia back, it's rightfully ours. It once was and will be!!
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Oh and watch the simple minded folks throwing around labels :) thats when you know you won the moral highground.
LOL...Pots and kettles and all that.
But just to play off what Dnarag said....It looks like the jews did the right thing in this instance. The ship put up the middle finger to them when they asked them to dock at the proper port for inspection. If anything Israels reaction was a little soft. There should have really been more dead "peace activists" and to be honest I would not care. These guys came looking for trouble and got off lightly.
Israel itself can go fuck itself as far as I am concerned. They have stated rather publicly that the USA is there bitch and they can take from us and do whatever they please (I wish I could find the link but all that comes up is this stupid ship indecent) so I really could care less about wasting money on them anyway. The Palestinians? Fuck them as well. Another waste of money. If those retards did manage to push Israel off the face of the earth and claim the land as there own they would turn the shining star of industry and infrastructure that is Israel into a third world shit hole in under a year.
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look at it from this way, what if Hitler Stalin and Bush organized the Aid flotilla to Gaza? it doesnt doesnt matter who is behind it when the idea behind it is to help people.
Ill give a more fitting example : Back in 1947 The soviets put up a blockade on West Berlin, the only way to provide aid to the West berlin population was by air, organized by the allies. Now my question to anyone is, who thinks politicians and military leaders of the allies honestly gave a shit about the fate of the West berlin people. The same leaders who decided up to 2 years earlier that all germans are nazis and they deserve everything that happens to them , 600 000+ german civilians got bombed to pieces or burned alive, now suddenly 2 years later those nazis got switched out with the poor german population in need....The only reason they got aid was to hold ground against the soviets, that was the motivation behind it. That doesnt mean that helping the west berlin population was a bad idea , and it doesnt mean that every allied pilot had in mind to piss off the soviet leadership.
You assume that all 600 people on that ship had a huge conspirancy going trying to think of how to kill some israelian soldiers, and the perfect excuse is sending aid to people no one gives a shit about right? Cause all 600 of them were MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. It was 600 people from all walks of life, all nationalities, religions and races all over the world.
The point was to provide aid, and at the same time protest the illegal blockade. I mean what else is anyone on this planet supposed to do to help those people in Gaza? No gouvernment has the balls to actively oppose it. Either the protest works out and the aid can be delivered, or Israel will divert the boats and not let them in, which will create alot of media attention and an uproar along with it bringing the fate of the civilian population in Gaza back into focus. No one expected that ISraelian special forces would storm that boat by force, its like navy seals roping down into an anti war protest in downtown LA, what on earth do you expect?
1 american got shot 4 times in the head and 1 time in the chest, but somehow he is called a terrorist.
IF these people who got shot actually had bad intentions in mind from the start then they sure were very badly armed or lack there of, or maybe they hadnt, if they actually had fire arms from the start and israrlian soldiers got shot right off the bat THEN you could make a point out of it.
The Israelian gouvernment not releasing the full detailed video speaks books for itself, cause if its all to blame on the "terrorists" all they have to do is release the full video.
Now we dont see how it starts, and dont see how it ends, we only see barely seconds of what happened.
If the eyewittness accounts from all those people on the boat who are from all walks of life are anything to go by, then not releasing the full video by the israelies is probably the right thing to do for them.
On that note, i read that Osama Bin laden will be in charge of investigating 9/11
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
It is....http://www.bluetruth.net/2007/10/israel-state-of-jewish-people-and.html
And the Cheerokee can live in Tennessee if they want, besides, they are more understanding and are more than generously compromised. As it is now, it's for the majority, and no one is starting a war out of this.
Your source for that is fundamentalist jewish website? Yeah. We want Karelia back, it's rightfully ours. It once was and will be!!
LOL, it's all about the controversy. You find one that says it belongs to the palestinians, I bet it will only be a fundamental Islamic website, so what's the difference?
@ Lainer, dude, you sure that was Israel? They were one of our closest allies until Mr. Dumbshit got voted into office in 2008...and started getting all warm and fuzzy with the Arabs, (look how that worked in the past, absolutely perfec) and screwing Israel. Yeah, they have a reason to be pissed at us.
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Your source for that is fundamentalist jewish website? Yeah. We want Karelia back, it's rightfully ours. It once was and will be!!
Hey I tried for you guys in FH1....But them fucking Russian camper bastards always always shot up our little boats with armour. :-(
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
Same logic goes for Palestinians who claim the land is "rightfully" theirs.
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Fact is Palestinians do live there, they have houses, farmland , towns and that for many generations... actually more than just a few generations..... kinda hard to debate who owns it when they live there.
We can disagree on the 1948 resolution but what is done is done, anyone who is jewish has enough land in what was laid out back then, to remind you israel was smaller than what you see today and cause of that resolution hundreds of thousands of palestinians became refugees and had to leave what became Israel.
Thing is though what you see on maps today isnt the 1948 layout, but the result of the 1967 war where Israel occupied even more land than they were supposed to get "legally" by the UN.
Now they didnt only make the occupied land Israel, they also to this day build settlements >inside< what is left of the westbank AFTER 1967, erecting walls around them ( thats what you see happening in the news ) .
What the 2 state solution is about is that settlements stop outside of the 1967 borders, it would mean Israel would still have more land than they bargained for in 1948, But Israel doesnt want that, end of all means is making all of it Israel, and the logic for them is once jews live somewhere, you cant expect them to leave again, and i agree with that, i dont expect jews to go where ever they came from after living in tel aviv for generations, but i expect them to treat the palistineans the same way.
There i just explained the big issue surrounding the conflict and whats is preventing peace.
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
Same logic goes for Palestinians who claim the land is "rightfully" theirs.
Well they were living there when it was taken.
Edit: Ah, I see Siben's response.
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
Well, if we're going to limit ourselves to a few decades ago, where is the international outcry for Hyderabad's independence from India? Or Goa? Or the outcry to return East Silesia and Prussia to Germany? Or Karelia to Finland? Or the Kuriles and Sakhalin to Japan? or Galicia back to Poland?
(I know some people say these things should be changed, but the point is there's no wars over these things, and no one lets them drive national policy).
At what point do you just accept, there was a war, we lost, and then get over it and move on with your lives?
Everyone else in the above cases did, why can't the Palestinians?
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
Everyone else in the above cases did, why can't the Palestinians?
Why cant americans accept terrorism?
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
Everyone else in the above cases did, why can't the Palestinians?
Why cant americans accept terrorism?
What? Time to put down the bottle and go to bed guy.
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
Well, if we're going to limit ourselves to a few decades ago, where is the international outcry for Hyderabad's independence from India? Or Goa? Or the outcry to return East Silesia and Prussia to Germany? Or Karelia to Finland? Or the Kuriles and Sakhalin to Japan? or Galicia back to Poland?
(I know some people say these things should be changed, but the point is there's no wars over these things, and no one lets them drive national policy).
At what point do you just accept, there was a war, we lost, and then get over it and move on with your lives?
Everyone else in the above cases did, why can't the Palestinians?
Alsace, Eastern Cyprus, Nothern Ireland, Ossetia and so on and so on....
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Yeah its ridiculous to use native americans as an example when Israel have occupied parts of Palestine just a few decades ago.
Everyone else in the above cases did, why can't the Palestinians?
Why cant americans accept terrorism?
What? Time to put down the bottle and go to bed guy.
On that note why cant jews accept the holocaust, the indians did.
Kinda strange you take me serious but not megasuxor btw, while i was pôinting out how botched that statement was.
First of all in the example to the land that Germany had to give up after WW2, the millions losings their home didnt accept it back then, and dont accept it today, the organisation representing them picked a new leader and this caused a huge uproar inside the german gouvernment and in the relationship with Poland, thats how deep the rifts still are.
Thing is though no one sane or rational is asking Germany to go to war and take that land back by force, whatever excuse you would wrap around it the human catostraphy would be huge.
The same sane people are not demanding that Israel gives up its land and moves back to the usa or whatever.
But the same is expected of them to end the ongoing crime of taking even more land from the palestinians.
I know you know you are wrong in your way of thinking , you simply see christians and muslims in a conflict and you pick the christian side, thats how simple minded it is.
But ill apply what is happening in palestine to the USA : Imagine Mexicans building settlements in texas, destroying your town , killing anyone that opposes, and then making it part of mexico, you have no means to defend yourself against the mexican army besides your rifle, and no one is helping you.
But i know what you are thinking "lol that wont happen in real life cause the us army would kick their ass rofl!! so i dont have to worry about it ;)", which is good for you, but the palestinians arent that lucky.
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Any country would have done exactly the same (Afaik the ships were either on the verge of entering International waters, or already in Israelian waters) . Check out the radio communications, they are very decent from Israelian side and *quite* indecent from the aidship's side referring to 9/11 and other such matters.
I am perfectly fine with pointing fingers at Israel any time of the day, but this specific instance is just not one of them whatever way I look at it. They were in their full right to board the ships (remember, Israelian waters or on the verge of entering them). They were in their full right to return fire (which is how it looks at this moment). And the boarding ships were FAR from innocent in nature, as is seen on videos and photos from a turkish sources (which should show a best case scenario, but dont).
Nazi Germany wasn't exactly the nicest, but I think everyone agrees that twisting history to 'just put some more blame on the already evil Germans' is not the right thing to do.
I see a similar thing happen with this case happening right now. And for those who keep holding hands above the corrupt Hamas regime ....remove the flaps from your eyes. Hamas has done many evil things, not perse to Israelians but as well to their own people and are a criminal organisation that is benefitting tremendously from the current status quo to preserve their power and control the flow of aid money and goods.
Period.
you couldn't be more wrong here. In 2007 Iran has seized British marines in its water (not the international ones). no shots fired, no casualties. and we are talking here about the "bad ass Ahmedinejad" seizing a military ship from a very unfriendly country. so why "democratic countries" attack humanitarian aid ships in the International waters? while "uncivilised countries" can seize a military ship of some leading navy in the world without a shot fired? so the myth about countries have to do so is blown.
Hamas is as much corrupted as any political power, no more, no less. but when Hamas was a sole winner in the Palestinian election it promised a sovereign country and could not deliver, because Israel put such harsh sanctions, than no medicine, food, money, electricity or water could get into Gaza, and West bank. sounds familiar? sounds like ghetto to me.
The only answer to Israeli Palestinian state is one state, on democratic basis and equal rights/treatment to all Israelis and Palestinians. simple.
Watch this folks as the last apartheid regime is crumbling, we saw it once when the racist SAFA apartheid regime has collapsed, Israel's fate is similar.
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The same sane people are not demanding that Israel gives up its land and moves back to the usa or whatever.
But the same is expected of them to end the ongoing crime of taking even more land from the palestinians.
And that is a reasonable and respectable position to take. But that's not what Ottozeimer appears to be advocating.
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The same sane people are not demanding that Israel gives up its land and moves back to the usa or whatever.
But the same is expected of them to end the ongoing crime of taking even more land from the palestinians.
And that is a reasonable and respectable position to take. But that's not what Ottozeimer appears to be advocating.
The only land Israel took was Gaza Strip and West Bank, both after conflicts STARTED by the palestinians...the gave it back once, but they don't learn. Besides that, Jews don't have an official "country" to go to...
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I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post. The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.
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arisaka99, your back! (http://serve.mysmiley.net/love/love0019.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
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I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post. The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.
Woot you are back! Kinda......
Agreed. Don't give a shit. My Government needs to stay the fuck out of other countries business and start dealing with things at home.
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I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post. The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.
Woot you are back! Kinda......
Agreed. Don't give a shit. My Government needs to stay the fuck out of other countries business and start dealing with things at home.
Too late, we're fucked, so lets go around fucking up other people's lives, too. No? Sounds like a plan to me. :D
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Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place? I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.
Same logic goes for Palestinians who claim the land is "rightfully" theirs.
Well they were living there when it was taken.
Edit: Ah, I see Siben's response.
Huh? I haven't said anything in this tread for a long time now. What did i say?
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you couldn't be more wrong here. In 2007 Iran has seized British marines in its water (not the international ones). no shots fired, no casualties. and we are talking here about the "bad ass Ahmedinejad" seizing a military ship from a very unfriendly country. so why "democratic countries" attack humanitarian aid ships in the International waters? while "uncivilised countries" can seize a military ship of some leading navy in the world without a shot fired? so the myth about countries have to do so is blown.
I think if you took five minutes to research that case, you would not have typed this silly reaction.
First :
The British marines were in the Shatt-al-Arab salt marshes, a 120 mile wide disputed zone between Irak and Iran to find smugglers. They were sanctioned by the UN to do this. Iran has been part of the UN for five decades!
Second :
The British marines did not have a death wish unlike the extremists and martyrdom searchers aboard the 'aidvessels'. They faced overwhelming enemy superiority and surrendered to the Iranians without violence.
Would they have shot at the Iranian republic guard they might have been annihilated. But, and this is the most obvious : Although Iran is perfectly comfortable capturing, exhibitioning as trofee and then releasing British military personnel, they would never want to provoke the western military too much. Killing them might have caused a second Iraq, not in the advantage of Ahmadinejad.
All in all I think you are a bit overbiased and have cloudy thinking. Exactly my point earlier - I am fully aware that Israel is far from being a healthy state, but even in the face of overwhelming evidence so far you seem to completely ignore the deliberate deathwish of many people aboard the aid-ships and the occurrence of events aboard as far as we can construct them now.
The thing I frown upon is that they entered the ships so early in International Waters. Although the ships were clearly heading for the Gaza strip (see plotted GPS courses and listen to conversations between the ships) I think it would have been smarter to wait until they were really there. This is in my eyes a technicality, but does not change a spat of blood shed in the ships - it would have been the same 1 hour later, in Israelian waters.
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I read the raid was done in international waters because if they would have waited longer it would have been day, thus more people awake. I understand to logic behind it but they should have indeed waited a few more hours and boarded the ship during daylight outside of international waters.
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Sounds very tactical - of both the Israelis _and_ the aidships. They well knew this probably, and tried to reach the strip by the first daylight. That shines some light on the situation I guess...
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Dnarag, are you high or just incredibly stupid?
Don't victimise and dont mystify Islam and muslims, they think in the same categories as we do - we want to live peacefully, and they do. we want to prosper, and they do, simple. If a military starts shooting at a peaceful demonstration in Havana, Santiago, Belfast or Gaza, or Fallujah the response will always be the same - clandestine non state para military operation - terrorism.
add to that if you wiped out half of their families, destroyed their homes, so the other half of families have to stay i rubble or temporary shelters, no water, electrician, medicine and so forth.
Russians in WW2 were willing to die, because they had nothing else to loose and they were not muslims.
People more often go Postal in the Western world than suicidal in the Middle east, seriously, shoot-outs at schools, workplaces, towns and so on, and you say muslims have that special trait to be keen to suicide? cmon. Deathwish is a natural trait to every human of any origin in the world, you just have to keep pissing him off very much!
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So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?
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So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?
bingo
If you stop fucking with people then people won't fuck with you. (Sorry for the cursing :)
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So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?
bingo
If you stop fucking with people then people won't fuck with you. (Sorry for the cursing :)
I've missed this whole thread. But no.
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People attack someone else because they see something, want it as well, can't get it so start a fight (to put is very simple) so even if you are doing nothing bad, someone that has is worse then you will blame you for it.
This does not apply for everyone, but all it takes is 1 in a million and you already have over 6000 people in this world that hate you.
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Dnarag, are you high or just incredibly stupid?
Don't victimise and dont mystify Islam and muslims, they think in the same categories as we do - we want to live peacefully, and they do. we want to prosper, and they do, simple. If a military starts shooting at a peaceful demonstration in Havana, Santiago, Belfast or Gaza, or Fallujah the response will always be the same - clandestine non state para military operation - terrorism.
add to that if you wiped out half of their families, destroyed their homes, so the other half of families have to stay i rubble or temporary shelters, no water, electrician, medicine and so forth.
Russians in WW2 were willing to die, because they had nothing else to loose and they were not muslims.
People more often go Postal in the Western world than suicidal in the Middle east, seriously, shoot-outs at schools, workplaces, towns and so on, and you say muslims have that special trait to be keen to suicide? cmon. Deathwish is a natural trait to every human of any origin in the world, you just have to keep pissing him off very much!
Glad to see that you have no counter arguments to defend your previous statement. Would have been nice if you just kept on the topic, but you seem to want to pull the discussion into irrelevant area's again.
I do not refer anywhere to large groups of people (and/or muslims) being more suicidal than others. I said that of particular people on this particular ship there are videos of victims (hurt but alive) that said on Turkish tv that they would want to go back and become martyrs anytime again.
You seem to have great problems with accepting facts, and keep ignoring things that do not fit your picture of the world. When you respond to my messages you present examples that are simply untrue (such as the captured brits in Iran), although I lean towards thinking you are not lying but just merely ignorant or poorly informed.
It seems that even my nicely on-topic, very neutral response (where I keep saying that I don't like Israel one bit, but that in THIS particular event I see that the 'peaceful' people on the aid-ship were the ones provoking the actions _and_ deliberately trying to get it to a combat situation) only sollicited a rant about stuff you seem to be very frustrated about, rather than trying to analyse the situation.
I'm certainly not going to waste more time on you, unless you can take of the blindfold and start to discuss facts, not assumptions and clearly politicized opinions.
Thanks.
p.s. maybe you should also take some time (regarding your points where you say the Islam is a pacifist movement....) to dig into the Qur'an and Hadith. They show many highly violent texts that cannot be mis interpreted and that are held in high esteem in the current muslim world. Especially the growing salafism and wahabism show the darker side of the Islam very nicely.
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The Israelies have relaxed the blockage, the list of illegal goods (goods that aren't accepted in and have been denied into Gaza, such as concrete and wood for example) has been made a bit shorter:
Israel has relaxed it's blockade a little. For example soda, herbs and shavingfoam are now allowed across the border again. Many of [these] products were already beinbg smuggled into the country from Egypt to Gaza. Buildmaterials are not covered by these more relaxed regulations.
Source: http://nos.nl/artikel/163110-israel-versoepelt-blokkade-gaza.html (http://nos.nl/artikel/163110-israel-versoepelt-blokkade-gaza.html)
What a royal gesture... ::) How about F* that blockade and allow everything in except truely dangerous goods such as explosives.
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What a royal gesture... ::) How about F* that blockade and allow everything in except truely dangerous goods such as explosives.
Are you fucking nuts? Allow wood? The Palestinians already have mathematics in another year or two they could have construction.....And then BAM! Catapult and War elephant spam.
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Wood can be used to make black powder, black powder can be used to make bombs. Probably why it is baned.
I think that when they made the list they just started something like this:
-Ok, lets ban weapons
_But then they will just make there own
-ok then ban anything that they can make weapons off (wood, metal, plastics,...)
_But dont they need that to live?
-Do you want to get shot? I don't.
_Your right, maybe if we take away there food they will be to weak to fight it!
-Good thinking!
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instead of trying to think of ways to fix the headache , they should think about not getting a headache in the first place.
But that would require rational thinking.
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instead of trying to think of ways to fix the headache , they should think about not getting a headache in the first place.
But that would require rational thinking.
Ethnic cleansing is not cool Stefan. ::)
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instead of trying to think of ways to fix the headache , they should think about not getting a headache in the first place.
But that would require rational thinking.
Ethnic cleansing is not cool Stefan. ::)
Thats why i oppose what Israel is doing to the palestinians
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jews killing arabs
arabs killing jews
it's a never ending cycle that will sway back and forth as the years go by. it will never end until someone ends it.
Eradicate them both - fucking just do it already.
Get ready for "THAT'S RADICAL AND RACIST AND ANTI SEMITIC".
They cause so many fucking problems it's unbearable, anybody with a functioning brain can understand that this conflict will never end and just brings suffering to anybody who gets involved. Get rid of the aggressors and you will have no more fucking aggressors.
Don't sit there and think "well how do i feel about this. who is right. let me reserve judgment until all of the facts come out" NO, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, people are dying and lives are being destroyed on both sides. GET RID OF ALL AGGRESSORS HOLY FUCK.
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p.s. maybe you should also take some time (regarding your points where you say the Islam is a pacifist movement....) to dig into the Qur'an and Hadith. They show many highly violent texts that cannot be mis interpreted and that are held in high esteem in the current muslim world. Especially the growing salafism and wahabism show the darker side of the Islam very nicely.
dude, you clearly haven't read the bible
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dont waste your breath. its the christianity vs muslim crowd.
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jews killing arabs
arabs killing jews
it's a never ending cycle that will sway back and forth as the years go by. it will never end until someone ends it.
Eradicate them both - fucking just do it already.
Get ready for "THAT'S RADICAL AND RACIST AND ANTI SEMITIC".
They cause so many fucking problems it's unbearable, anybody with a functioning brain can understand that this conflict will never end and just brings suffering to anybody who gets involved. Get rid of the aggressors and you will have no more fucking aggressors.
Don't sit there and think "well how do i feel about this. who is right. let me reserve judgment until all of the facts come out" NO, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, people are dying and lives are being destroyed on both sides. GET RID OF ALL AGGRESSORS HOLY FUCK.
Simplistic much? I wouldn't expect much more from a religion hater like yourself who don't even understand the concepts or circumstances.
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Oh, solving the Israeli-Arab conflict would be easy. Solving it without genocide is the hard part.
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jews killing arabs
arabs killing jews
it's a never ending cycle that will sway back and forth as the years go by. it will never end until someone ends it.
Eradicate them both - fucking just do it already.
Get ready for "THAT'S RADICAL AND RACIST AND ANTI SEMITIC".
They cause so many fucking problems it's unbearable, anybody with a functioning brain can understand that this conflict will never end and just brings suffering to anybody who gets involved. Get rid of the aggressors and you will have no more fucking aggressors.
Don't sit there and think "well how do i feel about this. who is right. let me reserve judgment until all of the facts come out" NO, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, people are dying and lives are being destroyed on both sides. GET RID OF ALL AGGRESSORS HOLY FUCK.
Simplistic much? I would expect much from a religion hater like yourself who don't even understand the concepts or circumstances.
Religion has nothing to do with this.
Gtfo.
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Religion has nothing to do with this.
Gtfo.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Troll trolls self? ;D
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jews killing arabs
arabs killing jews
it's a never ending cycle that will sway back and forth as the years go by. it will never end until someone ends it.
Eradicate them both - fucking just do it already.
Get ready for "THAT'S RADICAL AND RACIST AND ANTI SEMITIC".
They cause so many fucking problems it's unbearable, anybody with a functioning brain can understand that this conflict will never end and just brings suffering to anybody who gets involved. Get rid of the aggressors and you will have no more fucking aggressors.
Don't sit there and think "well how do i feel about this. who is right. let me reserve judgment until all of the facts come out" NO, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, people are dying and lives are being destroyed on both sides. GET RID OF ALL AGGRESSORS HOLY FUCK.
Simplistic much? I would expect much from a religion hater like yourself who don't even understand the concepts or circumstances.
Religion has nothing to do with this.
Gtfo.
Ouch...
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Religion has nothing to do with this.
Gtfo.
I'm not trolling. This ever lasting conflict has and always will be known to be religion related. Not trolling at all.
"lol jews" is extremely relevant.
Troll trolls self? ;D
Dammit. You guys are too quick. I'LL BE BACK.
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p.s. maybe you should also take some time (regarding your points where you say the Islam is a pacifist movement....) to dig into the Qur'an and Hadith. They show many highly violent texts that cannot be mis interpreted and that are held in high esteem in the current muslim world. Especially the growing salafism and wahabism show the darker side of the Islam very nicely.
dude, you clearly haven't read the bible
Unfortunately I have. Especially the old testament is little better than the Qu'Ran. The new testament is a nicely revised, cleaned up version of the Bible but still contains quite a number of very debatable content.
You seem to make assumptions again ;) I am venomously anti-religious, and despise all extreme faiths equally. Again, you cannot wrap your head around the fact that someone can be pro-Israel in this case without being a right wing christian jewlover fascist racist forever.
Sorry to tell you, I am far from that. I can call up many cases where I am pro-palestinian in a certain conflict or occurence, it depends on the situation. Documentaries such as The Killing Zone, The Inner Tour, Paradise Now & The Israel lobby shine a very clear light on the situation. Again, I am opposed to Israel, but this does not mean I am pro palestinian by default.
I partially grew up in Turkey in the 80's and have been to school there too. I think I have a pretty good idea what average, moderate Islam is and stands for. And in the case of Palestine we are NOT talking about moderate islam in many cases..
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I wonder when the Isrealies release an uncut tapes of the footage they recorded from the choopers, aswell as releasing the confiscated media from the ships passengers...
Right now we're left with rather limited footage from the Isrealies that show their soldiers being asaulted, and this one tape of Isrealies assaulting ane of the people aboard the ship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZP7AP99DRM&feature=player_embedded
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I doubt they ever will, maybe wikileaks will get there hands on the tapes in a few years, but they will not release them officialy. The tapes will make them look bad, very bad, otherwise they would have been released a long time ago.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqI-oicoVeA
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Stefan, I am surprised you post that video. For me that is quite obviously showing exactly what happened.
I quote from the interview with the pro-Palestinian guy from the ship :
'I was kind of surprised to see the Israeli's attack a ship that the leadership said of that it would be defended by our bodies'.
If that is not an intention to provoke a massacre, than I dont know. While he is saying 'oh poor us, poor us we were innocent peaceful protesters' you see video footage (that is 'best selection' obviously) where the first few commando's that come on deck get beaten by a large crowd with metal poles.
Not sure what you would do, but if you are a hand full of soldiers on a deck and you get beaten on the head with a 10 pound metal poles, I would probably defend my self by shooting the person at one point or another.
A few minutes later he talks about how they 'detained' a single Israeli commando on the deck, removing his pistol from his hip. Wait, he did not even have his pistol in his hand? ::) Yeah the first few guys really were looking to shoot everyone.... not
Name me _one_ armed force (be it police, military, MP, guards or what not) that gets attacked by a crowd with metal bars in a confined space that is actively trying to neutralize your personnel, that will not respond at one point by defending at gun point, resulting in casualties sooner or later ?
I cant think of many occurrences.
Not really convinced by his words, but I sure am by the video that is running next to him. Bla bla bla...harmless peaceful protesters...yes....looking to smash your head of if you dare set one foot on the ship, attacking in groups. How very peaceful.
Sorry, I feel ZERO compassion for these people. They were trying to get to Gaza, and he makes it very clear in the interview that even though the Israeli's were boarding the ship they would still _ATTEMPT_ to land at Gaza 'although it would be very difficult probably'.
So this means detaining Israeli military personal on board that ship, setting course through National / Israeli waters and try to unload goods illegally. Look at it how you want, I cant see anything but a bunch of wacko's pretending to be peaceful protesters.
They wanted violence and confrontation, and it is exactly what they got. Just a hand full of miles earlier than they expected it.
So....Israeli government fucked up wacko's ? Sure!
Gaza 'aid ships' peaceful? Please, not this one anyways.
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unlike you i dont pick sides based on religion, and neither am i afraid of the truth, so i post and read everything, which cant be said of most people on this forum including you.
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Can you point me to a single message or line of text where I 'choose side with the Jewish faith' ? If I gave anyone that impression, let's be very solid about that : I don't like organised faith of _any_ kind. I'm an anti-theist :-*
I think I've also made it clear over and over and over again I feel nothing for either Israel or Palestinian religious extremists. And in general, cannot identify with either country/people on a political level.
But, to stay on topic : What do you think of the violence used by the 'peaceful' protesters ? And their clear intentions to use violence against anyone entering the ship before and during passage of national waters?
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unlike you i dont pick sides based on religion, and neither am i afraid of the truth, so i post and read everything, which cant be said of most people on this forum including you.
Wow Stefan.....Really?
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I refuse to take a side in this situation. There was obviously some racial, and ideological influences for both sides in the confrontation.
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Can you point me to a single message or line of text where I 'choose side with the Jewish faith' ? If I gave anyone that impression, let's be very solid about that : I don't like organised faith of _any_ kind. I'm an anti-theist :-*
I think I've also made it clear over and over and over again I feel nothing for either Israel or Palestinian religious extremists. And in general, cannot identify with either country/people on a political level.
But, to stay on topic : What do you think of the violence used by the 'peaceful' protesters ? And their clear intentions to use violence against anyone entering the ship before and during passage of national waters?
You made a whole post about muslims which wasnt very positive while in no way feeling sympathy for those who died compared to being shocked about being clubbed by a stick.
To everything else i have repeatedly responded in this thread , simply go back a few pages, if you want to refute any of my points made back there feel free to.
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Stefan, anti-Islam is not the same as 'Pro-Judaism'.
And again, I am anti-theistic in general, I don't have favorites sorry. Although I do have a mild fondness for the tamed Christian faiths and perhaps Buddhism.
Hope that's cleared now and you can just assume I really don't like people pretending X and while being Y :)
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Stefan, anti-Islam is not the same as 'Pro-Judaism'.
And again, I am anti-theistic in general, I don't have favorites sorry. Although I do have a mild fondness for the tamed Christian faiths and perhaps Buddhism.
Hope that's cleared now and you can just assume I really don't like people pretending X and while being Y :)
Therefore, why take part in this conversation? If they kill each-other doesn't that mean that you won? If the Muslims and the Jew destroyed each-other it's basically cleansing the planet in your opinion.
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And again, I am anti-theistic in general, I don't have favorites sorry. Although I do have a mild fondness for the tamed Christian faiths and perhaps Buddhism.
What about Pagan agnostics like me :'(
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What about Pagan agnostics like me :'(
If that makes you an environmentalist, it's okay. ;)
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What about Pagan agnostics like me :'(
If that makes you an environmentalist, it's okay. ;)
Oh hell no it doesn't. I'm not with all that 'dancing naked through the trees to get in touch with nature' crap.
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@ Arisaka : I dont have to 'win', I would prefer a world without organised faith however, yes. My personal opinion does not change the situation with the aid ships, which I still think I see relatively neutral. I can name a hundred cases where Israel misbehaves badly and for which I despise them highly.
@ VonMudra : I don't see paganism as an organised faith, but a personal one. Something I have zero objections to :) Anyone is free to do in his head whatever he or she pleases. In general the polytheistic, classical faiths are a lot more open minded than the current 'cemented' mono-theistic ones. Besides that I find them harmless, I think that the polytheistic faiths such as Paganism have a certain charm and usefulness to them ; especially how they use methods hundreds of thousands of years old that actually say something about early humankind and in that sense have high historical, ethnographic and cultural value.
Oh, and Paganists don't go around killing people in the name of their belief ;)
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So what do pagan agnostic make you? i really wonder that myself
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I think we also leave out millions of people that have mixed personal beliefs. People that may believe in Jesus Christ, and Pagan Symbols as well, or any other combination of religions.
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Oh, and Paganists don't go around killing people in the name of their belief ;)
What if they worship Mars/Ares?
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What if we keep this discussion on topic 8) Feel free to start another one about Pagans.
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Also, Dnarag the reason you're afraid of organized religions is the fact that they can actually speak out against the government. I personally dislike many religions, but at least I'm respectful and acknowledge that they are probably the reason for almost every countries existence. Like I said before Europe would be non-existent . Without the Catholics and the Muslims no technology or literature would have survived the dark ages. With out the Pagans, Architecture today would consist of mud huts. Personally I don't mind atheists, in fact many of my favorite characters in history are atheists! But, I guess this is what Europe is coming to, but what do I care? Europe's influence is becoming less important every day, you military's are just puppets for the US and what do you say about it? Nothing !! ;). What I don't understand is why you guys don't make one giant happy country, 90% of your opinions on everything are the same.
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Without the Catholics and the Muslims no technology or literature would have survived the dark ages.
We will never know how many ancient writings were destroyed by catholic priest just because they were opposing the religion...If it was speaking about values and one god they would keep it.If it was speaking about polytheism or something that didn't go with their vision they would burn it so it will never affect people.Yes they indeed save a lot of work but they also destroyed some.
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@ Arisaka :
By your philosophy we should be thankful for Hitler/Nazi-Germany, since they are responsible for the biggest technological breakthroughs the past century. And, in general, any kind of major war would be a good thing because they are the triggers for formation of kingdoms, of countries, of rapid technological breakthroughs....
Acknowledging the deeds of religion (or mighty and evil regimes of the past, and wars..) is one thing. Pretending that they are still as important and necessary today as you claim...a different thing.
To revert this discussion back on topic :
What is your opinion on the whole Gaza/aid ship affair ? Show the back of your tongue ;)
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@ Arisaka :
By your philosophy we should be thankful for Hitler/Nazi-Germany, since they are responsible for the biggest technological breakthroughs the past century. And, in general, any kind of major war would be a good thing because they are the triggers for formation of kingdoms, of countries, of rapid technological breakthroughs....
Acknowledging the deeds of religion (or mighty and evil regimes of the past, and wars..) is one thing. Pretending that they are still as important and necessary today as you claim...a different thing.
To revert this discussion back on topic :
What is your opinion on the whole Gaza/aid ship affair ? Show the back of your tongue ;)
I already gave it. I have no right to give an opinion because I'm not a member or either religion and this is their own problem that they have to fix and history shows they'll just keep killing each other. Josef Stalin must be one of your hero's he was trying to eradicate all religion too, he was making the happy communist we all love each-other empire of your dreams.
Oh, and if you're so sure that atheism is the path to ultimate bliss and is the future than why even argue? Obviously Atheism is so great and obviously it will prevail.
Without the Catholics and the Muslims no technology or literature would have survived the dark ages.
We will never know how many ancient writings were destroyed by catholic priest just because they were opposing the religion...If it was speaking about values and one god they would keep it.If it was speaking about polytheism or something that didn't go with their vision they would burn it so it will never affect people.Yes they indeed save a lot of work but they also destroyed some.
Yes sadly that is true, but they save many more texts than they destroyed
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Yes sadly that is true, but they save many more texts than they destroyed
Source? I have a feeling they could have destroyed more then they saved.
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Yes sadly that is true, but they save many more texts than they destroyed
Source? I have a feeling they could have destroyed more then they saved.
The English Dr. M.G. Maggee: Referring to the dark ages "Christians, on the other hand tried to preserve classical and Pagan works," He isn't even a Catholic.
Here's an article for you: http://www.metanexus.net/magazine/tabid/68/id/10539/Default.aspx
I can keep on giving you Christian, Atheist and Catholic sources if you wish.
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Well there is a slight problem here on how to determine if they kept more than they destroyed...How can we know they existed if the only copies were destroyed? :-\
Most of the ancient Greek writings i study with the rhetors and their speeches and teachings of "More than one truth" are always half or some of their work completely destroyed...We know so few about ancient Greeks than what we really could.I don't know how much of latin writings were destroyed too...I need to search a bit about this.
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The discussion in this topic should be divided in three sections:
- Was the operational boarding handled well/wrong
- Was the tactical decision to board justified/unjustified
- Is the current strategy Israel/Palestine right/wrong
- Should Moose be banned yes/no
Ok that actually four, but once in a while he must be banned ;)
Since I am heavily biased on all topics I try not to get dragged in this discussion.
The most interesting topic has not been discussed sofar what is the long term Strategy of Israel concerning the conflict. I say Israel cause they hold the upper hand in this matter.
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cause they have a military that enables them to take more and more land in the west bank till nothing is left , backed by the USA which pretty much shields israel from international pressure.
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You do realize that the more the world isolates Israel, the more Israelis will vote for far-right parties like the National Union and Yisrael Beitenu, right?
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You do realize that the more the world isolates Israel, the more Israelis will vote for far-right parties like the National Union and Yisrael Beitenu, right?
It's a vicious circle that will only bring more hate and destruction. So again what is Israel's long term strategy, to break this circle.
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You do realize that the more the world isolates Israel, the more Israelis will vote for far-right parties like the National Union and Yisrael Beitenu, right?
like i give a shit if its left or right killing palistenians
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You do realize that the more the world isolates Israel, the more Israelis will vote for far-right parties like the National Union and Yisrael Beitenu, right?
like i give a shit if its left or right killing palistenians
So you're completely ignorant of Israeli politics then. Go educate yourself and then resume commenting.
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You know, most Left wing Israelis want the Palestinians gone too. From what I can tell they all do. Come on people please give the Israelis some slack too. Soon, their will probably be a major terrorist attack in Europe again and then sing odes of joy to Muslims.
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You know, most Left wing Israelis want the Palestinians gone too. From what I can tell they all do. Come on people please give the Israelis some slack too. Soon, their will probably be a major terrorist attack in Europe again and then sing odes of joy to Muslims.
Actually, Israeli center and center-left parties like Kadima and Labour all want a two-state solution and have given the most concessions to Palestinians.
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Poor poor isreal. baww for the jews. jesus christ...
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4963/israelpalestinemap.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/israelpalestinemap.jpg/)
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Poor poor isreal. baww for the jews. jesus christ...
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4963/israelpalestinemap.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/israelpalestinemap.jpg/)
Mr. Bullcrap, if Israel wasn't so aggressive, the Palestinians would have done the same. They hate eachother.
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You know, most Left wing Israelis want the Palestinians gone too. From what I can tell they all do. Come on people please give the Israelis some slack too. Soon, their will probably be a major terrorist attack in Europe again and then sing odes of joy to Muslims.
Actually, Israeli center and center-left parties like Kadima and Labour all want a two-state solution and have given the most concessions to Palestinians.
It certainly doesn't mean that they like them, but yes some Israeli parties are a little more "open". If you must know my opinion, I hate them both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Unfortunately I have to side with Israel, if we lose them, the Muslims would only have NATO to have Holy Jihad shit at. Now I doubt I can even play FH2 because of my political and ethical standings and we all know what peaceful, happy, joyful, filled with bliss Europeans do to people who have opinions against those of the people. I'm done in this thread.
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Hey look Mr. Deceptive, I can post slanted propaganda too!
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/WDW_Megaraptor/israelpalestinemap2.jpg)
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Vague responses in an attempt to discredit actual events and myself. I came to this. (Not trolling).
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Now I doubt I can even play FH2 because of my political and ethical standings and we all know what peaceful, happy, joyful, filled with bliss Europeans do to people who have opinions against those of the people. I'm done in this thread.
I've seen you make vague allegations directed at 'Europeans' for a couple of times now. I've not bothered to respond to them since I found them nonsensical and trolling.
First, Europe is by far not as 'left' as you imagine. I know you probably never bother to look at the news, but recently rightwing parties have been winning major elections (Conservatives in the UK, PVV in Holland, N-VA in Flanderen etc etc). At the moment parts of Europe are more conservative and rightwing than your own USA government.
Second, 'we Europeans' dont exist mostly. People identify with their country or with their provence/city, not with Europe. The reason we so kindly reply to many 'Europeans suck' trolls is that we all happen to be on the European continent and there is one common trait we all share : Our skepticism towards the U.S.A. You can find this attitude in 99% of the world, so it's not even a very particular or unique trait... 8)
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OK, why can I not say Europeans suck, if you can say Americans are stupid? I've heard Europeans say it dozens of times. I also usually watch world news.
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OK, why can I not say Europeans suck, if you can say Americans are stupid?
This is why:
I also don't usually watch world news and I don't consider the UK to be part of Europe.
;D
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Shit, that don't should have been a do and I meant to take the UK comment out that was for a different discussion, that was loaded with fail :/ . Anyways, I also think, the USA, Mexico, Canada, every country in South America, every country in Africa, Russia, China, Japan, all of Europe, India, every other country in Asia, Australia, every small Island nation on the planet, and the rest of Humanity all suck, trust me I hate more people every day and lost all faith in humanity.
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Shit, that don't should have been a do and I meant to take the UK comment out that was for a different discussion, that was loaded with fail :/ . Anyways, I also think, the USA, Mexico, Canada, every country in South America, every country in Africa, Russia, China, Japan, all of Europe, India, every other country in Asia, Australia, every small Island nation on the planet, and the rest of Humanity all suck, trust me I hate more people every day and lost all faith in humanity.
So you will either become emo and kill yourself or you will become president of the USA .
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OK, you know what, I just looked through my posts again and I think I overdid it. I'm really sorry, sometimes I just get mad. I play online with a lot of Euros and many of them are awesome. From now on I'll just post my opinion then leave. I guess I just need to calm down, I used to be pleasant, but now I'm devolving into an insulting troll, making huge assumptions with my limited knowledge of the facts. I guess I just need to calm down, I'm just bored, my family has less money every day and I've just been a little upset lately and I guess I was just taking it out on everybody. I'm sick of everyone killing each other all over the world though, it's constant and un-ending. I guess it's a little late to hope for you guys to forgive me for going over the edge, but I'd like to be able to play FH2 again without being afraid of getting insulted.
Sorry,
Arisaka
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Vague responses in an attempt to discredit actual events and myself. I came to this. (Not trolling).
Allow me to deconstruct your map:
First map, lots of the green areas were desert where no one lived.
Second map, this was merely a hypothetical UN plan which never entered into force.
Third map, from 1949-1967 the West Bank was under Jordanian military occupation and Gaza was under Egyptian occupation. There was no such thing as "Palestinian Land" at this time.
Fourth map, plenty of Palestinians live in the white areas on the West Bank. The green areas transferred to Palestinian control in the Oslo Accords actually show an INCREASE in Palestinian controlled land from nothing to the areas that you see on the map.
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Vague responses in an attempt to discredit actual events and myself. I came to this. (Not trolling).
Allow me to deconstruct your map:
First map, lots of the green areas were desert where no one lived.
Second map, this was merely a hypothetical UN plan which never entered into force.
Third map, from 1949-1967 the West Bank was under Jordanian military occupation and Gaza was under Egyptian occupation. There was no such thing as "Palestinian Land" at this time.
Fourth map, plenty of Palestinians live in the white areas on the West Bank. The green areas transferred to Palestinian control in the Oslo Accords actually show an INCREASE in Palestinian controlled land from nothing to the areas that you see on the map.
I knew that map didn't look right...I'll try to find a more accurate map.
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so what are you saying, that its actually the palestinians who have stolen land from israel ?
No other country have recognized israels claim to these lands ever. Its clearly not israeli lands.
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Dont blame the isreali's, the UN gave them that land
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so what are you saying, that its actually the palestinians who have stolen land from israel ?
No other country have recognized israels claim to these lands ever. Its clearly not israeli lands.
Reality is much more complicated than the "bla bla they stole our land" propaganda.
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so what are you saying, that its actually the palestinians who have stolen land from israel ?
No other country have recognized israels claim to these lands ever. Its clearly not israeli lands.
I'm saying that no one stole land. Israel was rightfully given that land, which could be theirs traced back thousands of years... but anyways that's not important atm. Now we are dealing with modern times and if the palestinians would stop attacking Israel and stop starting wars with Israel, they wouldn't be losing land now would they? It's their hate that is causing their own misfortune. Like brought up earlier, Israel offered the palestinians the Partition Plan would would generously divide the land amoungst them, but they declined because they wanted all the land and continued to attack Israel, losing more land, the Israels gave it back before, but they just don't quit and they lost it again, when will they learn? Now they are just going to go cry to whoever will sympathize with them until they get thier land back, and when they do.... start new shit with Israel.
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Not only that but the land that could have become a Palestinian state in 1948 was instead invaded and occupied by Jordan and Egypt, who then proceeded to use Palestinians as pawns in their struggle against Israel while pretending to care about them.
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so what are you saying, that its actually the palestinians who have stolen land from israel ?
No other country have recognized israels claim to these lands ever. Its clearly not israeli lands.
Reality is much more complicated than the "bla bla they stole our land" propaganda.
Is it more complicated than what? Youre trying to say that you disagree with that propaganda, and rather believe in the Israeli propaganda?
So you say Jordan and Egypt occupied Palestine as their struggle againt Israel. I dont see any relevance to this case. That mean the palestinians should be occupied and killed now too?
Oddball say now its modern times. You really think the palestinians care about that? If someone come and take your land and kill members of your family, would you think it was perfectly ok just because they say its modern times now? Like germany in 1944 suddenly said " Hey guys, youre not allowed to try to take back your country cause now it suddenly became modern times, your struggle lay in the past, now were modern so stfu" The rest youre saying is too one-sided to answer. Its all the palestinians fault, and its only they who make trouble in the region... sure man.
Aswell, weres the logic in taking their land if they make trouble? Particulary when the reason they make trouble is that they want more land. Many nations have made trouble later around in the world, but i dont think ive seen cases where the offended nation occupy their lands and start to live there with the trouble-makers. Like Iraq, Serbia, Afganistan or wherever, the good-guys (americans & co) only occupy the country to get rid of the enemy army, they dont steal land for themselves to live.
Internet have alot of maps showing step by step how much land Israel have taken from the palestinians, i dont see any reason to argue. Its 100% obvious who stolen from who. They blame eachother for all kinds of stuff, no one really knows who has right. But one thing thats a fact is that land have been occupied. Its no excuse , even of you think the guys you occupy are assholes. Then simply just get away from their land if theyre so very bad.
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Oddball say now its modern times. You really think the palestinians care about that? If someone come and take your land and kill members of your family, would you think it was perfectly ok just because they say its modern times now?
As I asked earlier in this thread, at what point do you just give up trying to reclaim land lost 62 years ago?
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You stop trying to reclaim it the time you explode from the exploding belt around your stomach... Well i talk about the lands step by step beeing taken from the palestinians after 1948
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Dont blame the isreali's, the UN gave them that land
Because the U.N is uncorrupted and run by saints.
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Dont blame the isreali's, the UN gave them that land
Because the U.N is uncorrupted and run by saints.
The members of the U.N. has changed since the 40's...
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You stop trying to reclaim it the time you explode from the exploding belt around your stomach... Well i talk about the lands step by step beeing taken from the palestinians after 1948
So there will be peace when all Palestinians are dead. Well, I hope most people in the middle east don't think the same way you do. I'm also glad most Fins aren't fighting to the death to regain Karelia, or most Germans fighting to the death to regain Prussia.
"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us."--Golda Meir
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You stop trying to reclaim it the time you explode from the exploding belt around your stomach... Well i talk about the lands step by step beeing taken from the palestinians after 1948
So there will be peace when all Palestinians are dead. Well, I hope most people in the middle east don't think the same way you do. I'm also glad most Fins aren't fighting to the death to regain Karelia, or most Germans fighting to the death to regain Prussia.
"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us."--Golda Meir
I like that quote.
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i got another one "peace will come when the jews go home"
ROFL
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i got another one "peace will come when the jews go home"
ROFL
Go home where?
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i got another one "peace will come when the jews go home"
ROFL
Go home where?
You beat me to it, the jews had no home, that is why they were given Israel...
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Well they got kicked out last time for being a bunch of self-righteous jerks with a messiah complex,clearly they haven't learned :P
The whole 'they have thousands of years of history" bullshit doesn't work anywhere else in the world. Hey, I'm sure some native groups can have some 'special rights' in areas but we don't allow them to forcefully create and expand an independent state.
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I think arisaka99 won previous round :). Nice read man.
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You stop trying to reclaim it the time you explode from the exploding belt around your stomach... Well i talk about the lands step by step beeing taken from the palestinians after 1948
So there will be peace when all Palestinians are dead. Well, I hope most people in the middle east don't think the same way you do. I'm also glad most Fins aren't fighting to the death to regain Karelia, or most Germans fighting to the death to regain Prussia.
"Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us."--Golda Meir
Dont try to dictate my opinion. That was a joke of course. Its pretty clearly that i support the palestinians isnt it?
Im surprised you guys still dont understand the situation in the middle east. In 1948 Israel was created, and the palestinians got their land. The land given to the jews in 1948 called Isreal i think most of us agree that belongs to the jews/semites or what i should call them without beeing racistic. But the point that you guys dont understand is that the jews werent happy with the land they got and they have after 1948
taken alot more land which basicly was given to the palestinians. What Stefan means with "jews go home" is that they should go home from the palestinian areas they have taken , to the israeli areas UN gave them in 1948. Its like you guys still think were talking about that jews should get out of israel. We talk about Palestine. I wonder if you guys simply have a few braincells less than us others, or if you know what were saying but pretend you dont understand, in lack of real arguments.
So in a desperate attempt i try one last time to make you understand. Israel is a country where the jews should live, i think we all agree on that. Palestine is another country. Thats the country were talking about when we say the jews should get home. They should leave palestinian areas, and go to Israel. The jews have a home now and its called Israel, NOT Palestine. The problem is the jews leave their own country called Israel, slowly trying to occupy Palestine. Thats what i think is wrong. Its NOT wrong that the jews got Israel in 1948. I hope i managed to explain myself now.
Golda Meirs saying is so arrogant. If you love your children you dont let them get screwd over and suppressed by another people. Who say they dont love their children anyways? Anyone wanna fight for the rights of your children. Anyone would also hate the ones who discriminate and kill their children.
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The trouble is, in the Arab world, when they talk about "Palestine" they mean both Israel proper AND the occupied territories. They consider all Jews living in the region as "occupiers" and want to expel them all and create a Palestinian state that encompasses both Israel proper and the occupied territories.
As for the UN Partition Plan of 1948, remember, while the Jews accepted this plan the Palestinians and the Arab states rejected this plan and refused to agree to it, so it never entered into force. Instead of accepting a Palestinian state on the UN-assigned areas, they tried to push the Jews into the sea and create a Palestinian state on the entire region. As Azzam Pasha, the Arab League Secretary, put it "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."
So basically, the Palestinians were offered half a cake, refused, tried to take the whole thing, lost, and ended up with no cake at all.
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So in a desperate attempt i try one last time to make you understand. Israel is a country where the jews should live, i think we all agree on that.
;D Really guy? And Africa is a the place that blacks should live? Tell you what how about we make the USA and Canada a brave new nation for Anglo-Saxon types. I wonder how well that would fly at the UN? A country based off race or ethnic background seems like a crappy idea to me.
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Well thats not what i mean. You take my words out of context S.Lainer. Oddball and Megaraptor thought i meant that the Israeli people should leave Israel. The statement you quote is my answer to that. No, i dont think jews should leave israel, thats a country the jews should live.
Its alittle funny to see how you take one sentence out of context, change it completely upsidedown and try to dictate what my opinions are, based on your own illogical conclusions.
If i understand your logic correctly S.Lainer, is also UN working for making nations based off race or ethnic backgrounds ? It seems like you think the idea of making a country where the jews should live is synonymous with wanting all nations to be based on race and ethnic background. So the ones who gave Israel to the jews, are they racists in your opinion? I mean since they only wanted it for the jews to live.
Megaraptor youre pretty much correct. Except you say now the palestinians dont get any cake at all. At least UN, most nations in the world (actually i think its all except Israel) disagree with you. The palestinians are supposed to have a piece of the cake by "international law" and that piece is called palestine, and the israeli dont respect those international decisions. Yes, the palestinians did stupid things earlier (as well as the israeli aswell) but that doesnt mean they have lost all rights now.
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Well thats not what i mean. You take my words out of context S.Lainer. Oddball and Megaraptor thought i meant that the Israeli people should leave Israel. The statement you quote is my answer to that. No, i dont think jews should leave israel, thats a country the jews should live.
Its alittle funny to see how you take one sentence out of context, change it completely upsidedown and try to dictate what my opinions are, based on your own illogical conclusions.
If i understand your logic correctly S.Lainer, is also UN working for making nations based off race or ethnic backgrounds ? It seems like you think the idea of making a country where the jews should live is synonymous with wanting all nations to be based on race and ethnic background. So the ones who gave Israel to the jews, are they racists in your opinion? I mean since they only wanted it for the jews to live.
I did not take anything out of context. In fact I think it is funny that you are being so blind as to the point I was trying to make. Why do Jews get there own country? The whole logic behind your beliefs are the same as many white supremacists that would like there own white nation. Or that dirty Mexican group "The Race" that wants a pure nation filled with nothing but latino types. If this is your cup of tea so be it.
The UN said so it is ok....Whatever....Hell Hitler had that plan already in works in the 30's. Hope they gave him some credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
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Megaraptor youre pretty much correct. Except you say now the palestinians dont get any cake at all. At least UN, most nations in the world (actually i think its all except Israel) disagree with you. The palestinians are supposed to have a piece of the cake by "international law" and that piece is called palestine, and the israeli dont respect those international decisions. Yes, the palestinians did stupid things earlier (as well as the israeli aswell) but that doesnt mean they have lost all rights now.
Please cite relevant international law...
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S.Lainer i think its funny that you even talking about the "whole logic behind my beliefs" . I dont even have a wild idea what youre talking about.
1st: you completely misunderstand something i say and think i mean all nations should be based on races,
just because i said basicly that i disagreed that jews should be thrown out of Israel
2nd: Then you ask me some questions about racism
3rd: I try to explain and ask some questions to clear up things, which you dont answer
4th: After that you have a foolish idea that you know "the whole logic behind my beliefs" while in fact you
dont have any wild idea what im talking about.
5th: Then your final conclusion is that nazism " is my cup of tea "
So basically what youre saying is that since i do not want the jews to be wiped out of Israel, then im a nazi? I always thought it was the other way around. Hopefully youre just trolling me, orelse i would say you have a big comunication/understanding - problem. Or maybe ive misunderstood you. Though anyhow im not a nazi, unless youre a nazi if you support palestinians versus israel.
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S.Lainer i think its funny that you even talking about the "whole logic behind my beliefs" . I dont even have a wild idea what youre talking about.
1st: you completely misunderstand something i say and think i mean all nations should be based on races,
just because i said basicly that i disagreed that jews should be thrown out of Israel
2nd: Then you ask me some questions about racism
3rd: I try to explain and ask some questions to clear up things, which you dont answer
4th: After that you have a foolish idea that you know "the whole logic behind my beliefs" while in fact you
dont have any wild idea what im talking about.
5th: Then your final conclusion is that nazism " is my cup of tea "
So basically what youre saying is that since i do not want the jews to be wiped out of Israel, then im a nazi? I always thought it was the other way around. Hopefully youre just trolling me, orelse i would say you have a big comunication/understanding - problem. Or maybe ive misunderstood you. Though anyhow im not a nazi, unless youre a nazi if you support palestinians versus israel.
Never really seen you as a major douchebag on here. So no I am not trolling you. As to if I want to see the jews push into the sea the answer is no. As I have said before I really could give two shits what those groups do with one another I am just sick of my nation having to dump money into a region that gives us fuck all in return. In truth I think if all the jews disappeared tomorrow the place would be become a hell hole in no time. The Palestinians have already proven time and again that they can't manage shit. What I am really pondering is how cool is it have a Jewish nation at all? The concept of a nation founded on race, ethnic background or religion just seems wrong to me. I really can't put it any more simple than that. If you don't get it then I give up.
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Basing a country on religion, race and ethnic background is a good thing one could argue. The country would be a lot more stable then when 2 groups have to live together. Look at the Basks in Spain, look at the Wallon and Flemish in belgium. look at the Kosovo conflict. Look at the protestans and catholics in Ireland. the scotish and english. Look at all the tribe wars in africa like Hutu/Tutsi, Yoruba/Igbo, Zulu/British...
An artificial line as a border, straight true a 'tribe' of people will not split them, and forcing 2 groups to live together will not just happen without a problem. One will take authority, and the other will disagree with it.
I believe that making countries based and religion, race and ethnic background are the most stable and united countries out there.
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On the other hand, look at America, where we have dozens of major ethnic groups, most of which get along reasonably well compared to other countries (not always true in the past, but mostly true today). Not sure why this works, but I suspect it's because the American national identity is based on a shared set of principles rather than an ethnic identity.
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Arizona is a great example
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Arizona is a great example
You can't even use that as a comparable variable, considering they are a little upset that ILLEGAL aliens are infiltrating their land, wtf you expect?
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Plus, it's not as if white people and hispanic people are killing each other in Arizona, unlike the examples Siben posted (Kosovo, Ireland, etc)
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Lol well racism is ok if they dont kill eachother :)
on topic , video of the raid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY
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It's not even racism, it's nationalism and national and economic survival. You have a simplistic view of a perfect little world, problem is.. the world is a lot more complex and problems arn't as simple as they appear.
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It's not even racism, it's nationalism and national and economic survival. You have a simplistic view of a perfect little world, problem is.. the world is a lot more complex and problems arn't as simple as they appear.
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/35/CaptainObvious.jpg)
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LOL guys.
You're just confirming that most Europeans are vastly mis-informed about life in the United States.
You all think that racism is common here. It's not. America is less racist than almost anywhere in Europe.
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Lol well racism is ok if they dont kill eachother :)
on topic , video of the raid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsMJmvS0AY
You are an idiot.
On topic....That vid was long and boring for the most part. But from the skipping about I did I don't really see much difference from what we have seen before. Boat people fail once again. Fuck the boat dicks they got lucky in my view. Is it just me or do the speed boat jews have Tippmann 98's? Kudos to them for picking a nice paintball marker.
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LOL guys.
You're just confirming that most Europeans are vastly mis-informed about life in the United States.
You all think that racism is common here. It's not. America is less racist than almost anywhere in Europe.
x2 true. US was ALOOOT less racist than where I live now... Except for the black kids (no offense) calling me a white boi or whatever :|
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LOL guys.
You're just confirming that most Europeans are vastly mis-informed about life in the United States.
You all think that racism is common here. It's not. America is less racist than almost anywhere in Europe.
you are just anti european
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LOL guys.
You're just confirming that most Europeans are vastly mis-informed about life in the United States.
You all think that racism is common here. It's not. America is less racist than almost anywhere in Europe.
Comon why do you generalize about europeans just because youve heard one persons opinion ? I would rather say this indicates (not confirm, to hear one opinion doesnt confirm anything) americans very easely generalize. Im in USA every year, i think i know pretty well what its about, and i dont see any mis-informing of the europeans around here at least. Another thing, how do you know how much racism it is in europe? Maybe youre just as mis-informed about europe, as you claim we are about USA.
And earlier you ask what "international law" im referring to. Well, the words "international law" was wrong, what i mean is that the parts of Palestine that Israel have occupied step by step after 1948 and up to modern times, is not recognized by any other nations. The reason no one recognize it is cause its no way to justify the occupation, its simply an illegal occupation quite like Hitlers occupation in the 40's.
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If you want a conflict between 2 races? Appartheid in SA, Zimbabwe today, In the long past, Brits vs Aboriginals, Indians vs white immigrants (in the us), Spanish vs Central american tribes
Many examples of groups of people going at eachother just because they are from a different group.
Racism in the us? It is still there today, not as clear as 40 years ago but it sure as hell isn't gone by a long shot.
I heard the latino's (read mexicans) aren't to popular in the south for example. Infact some of them are being hunted like animals by your border patrols that aren't afraid to shoot a kid. (read article about incident, not to long ago)
I don't deny that there is racism in europe aswell tough, probably the same reason why there is in the us, tired of them mooching of our tax money. Problem is we forget that many white people do just the same.
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hey nazis , how dare you to call slavic people subhumans?????
15/20 years later in the land of the free
HEY NIGGER YOU ARENT ALLOWED ON THE WHITE PEOPLE BUS
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S.Lainer i think its funny that you even talking about the "whole logic behind my beliefs" . I dont even have a wild idea what youre talking about.
1st: you completely misunderstand something i say and think i mean all nations should be based on races,
just because i said basicly that i disagreed that jews should be thrown out of Israel
2nd: Then you ask me some questions about racism
3rd: I try to explain and ask some questions to clear up things, which you dont answer
4th: After that you have a foolish idea that you know "the whole logic behind my beliefs" while in fact you
dont have any wild idea what im talking about.
5th: Then your final conclusion is that nazism " is my cup of tea "
So basically what youre saying is that since i do not want the jews to be wiped out of Israel, then im a nazi? I always thought it was the other way around. Hopefully youre just trolling me, orelse i would say you have a big comunication/understanding - problem. Or maybe ive misunderstood you. Though anyhow im not a nazi, unless youre a nazi if you support palestinians versus israel.
Never really seen you as a major douchebag on here. So no I am not trolling you. As to if I want to see the jews push into the sea the answer is no. As I have said before I really could give two shits what those groups do with one another I am just sick of my nation having to dump money into a region that gives us fuck all in return. In truth I think if all the jews disappeared tomorrow the place would be become a hell hole in no time. The Palestinians have already proven time and again that they can't manage shit. What I am really pondering is how cool is it have a Jewish nation at all? The concept of a nation founded on race, ethnic background or religion just seems wrong to me. I really can't put it any more simple than that. If you don't get it then I give up.
Well, i pretty much agree with you actually. I guess this was just a misunderstanding. I was seeing things from a point of view based on Israel and Palestine as it is now, not if it was right to make Israel in the first place. I dont know enough about the subject to have an opinion about that matter, only about how things are today. I guess i agree that a concept of a nation founded on race, ethnic background or religion is wrong. But on the other hand i cant really see what other concepts a nation should be based on. I guess ethnic background is a good idea, but for sure not religion. Similar culture i would guess is a good foundation.
Though i guess this isnt really a problem since very few nations are built like Israel was. Usually its a bunch of people with the same ethnic background who want to be together in a nation been there for 100s of years, and fight to be together in one nation and if theyre strong enough kill the guys on the other side of the border with different ethnic background. Unfortunately thats how it seems humans tend to act, witnessed throughout history.
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Comon why do you generalize about europeans just because youve heard one persons opinion ? I would rather say this indicates (not confirm, to hear one opinion doesnt confirm anything). Maybe youre just as mis-informed about europe, as you claim we are about USA.
No, this is not based on just one European.
Heck, visit the humor thread on these very forums and you'll find racial humor posted there by europeans that would be completely condemned in the US.
And earlier you ask what "international law" im referring to. Well, the words "international law" was wrong, what i mean is that the parts of Palestine that Israel have occupied step by step after 1948 and up to modern times, is not recognized by any other nations. The reason no one recognize it is cause its no way to justify the occupation, its simply an illegal occupation quite like Hitlers occupation in the 40's.
http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/reports/international_law.html#territories
I heard the latino's (read mexicans) aren't to popular in the south for example. Infact some of them are being hunted like animals by your border patrols that aren't afraid to shoot a kid. (read article about incident, not to long ago)
LOL, our Border Patrol doesn't "hunt" anyone...instead of protecting the border the government puts up signs like this:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/WDW_Megaraptor/BLM_Warning_SignKSAZ_20100615210853.jpg)
A lot of people wish that Border Patrol would do some more hunting, not to kill hispanics like you seem to think they enjoy doing but because there is a virtual war going on on the Mexican side of the border which is starting to spill over into the United States.
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Little over a week ago a border patrol officer shot a unarmed 14 year old imigrant dead. Hunting isn't the correct term, but what would you call killing unarmed 14 year olds trowing stones? Self defence? I am sure something less drastic was possible.
souce (dutch):
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/1116399/2010/06/09/Amerikaanse-grenswachter-doodt-14-jarige-Mexicaan.dhtml
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Little over a week ago a border patrol officer shot a unarmed 14 year old imigrant dead. Hunting isn't the correct term, but what would you call killing unarmed 14 year olds trowing stones? Self defence? I am sure something less drastic was possible.
souce (dutch):
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/1116399/2010/06/09/Amerikaanse-grenswachter-doodt-14-jarige-Mexicaan.dhtml
I can't read your source, but the 14 year old in question was a drug smuggler and part of a gang which started throwing stones at the border patrol agent who was trying to make an arrest. Not exactly an innocent bystander.
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Little over a week ago a border patrol officer shot a unarmed 14 year old imigrant dead. Hunting isn't the correct term, but what would you call killing unarmed 14 year olds trowing stones? Self defence? I am sure something less drastic was possible.
souce (dutch):
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/1116399/2010/06/09/Amerikaanse-grenswachter-doodt-14-jarige-Mexicaan.dhtml
Not only that, but depending ont he distance, size of the stone (not necessarly very big) and the strength of the kid, a stone can be a very deadly weapon, as effective as a 9mm, so yeah, self defense isn't overstating the situation, especiall when there is multiple threats. Not to mention, the whole thing about fighting a minor is BS, some kids 13-17 can well look over 18, so what are they going to do, stop and ask.. hey are you a minor? I need to get offensive....plus most don't even speak english.
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Little over a week ago a border patrol officer shot a unarmed 14 year old imigrant dead. Hunting isn't the correct term, but what would you call killing unarmed 14 year olds trowing stones? Self defence? I am sure something less drastic was possible.
souce (dutch):
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/1116399/2010/06/09/Amerikaanse-grenswachter-doodt-14-jarige-Mexicaan.dhtml
I can't read your source, but the 14 year old in question was a drug smuggler and part of a gang which started throwing stones at the border patrol agent who was trying to make an arrest. Not exactly an innocent bystander.
The article said Immigrant, not struggler, but if your right then it's still excessive force since they had no firearm and where throwing rocks. The US police is known for that so nothing special there tough. I had friends visiting the us and they all say the same, impolite and they almost all think they are the law in person and you have to do exactly as they order you. Completely different then here where the police is really there to help you, not harras you (cept for the speeding and parking tickets, grrrr)
Oddball, for 16 year olds i would say yes to you, but 14 is a tad young.
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Megaraptor, your link is too much too read. Maybe it contains some reasons for Israel to occupy parts of Palestine. I just know few countries recognize Israels claims, and one claim is not recognized by any nation. Thats enough for me. Anyhow, the site looks too pro-Israel. I dont bother trying to find it, but im pretty sure theres a similar one with the Palestinian flag saying something different.
Talking about racism, i think youre wrong. Ive heard many racist jokes from americans aswell, but thats not the point. To tell a joke mean very little. If you say americans condemn racist jokes i find that quite hypocrit, and similar with the general american way of thinking (imo). Like youre not allowed to show a boob on television, but still its the country in the world who produce most porn. Its just a false fascade. Like you say its less racism there, while just around 250 years ago they were ethnically cleaning out the natives in their entire continent, and killed them and put the rest in reservation. Then they kidnap negroes and send them over sea in huge numbers, and use them as slaves. And its not long ago, only 150 years or something since it stopped. Then you have KKK and all that.
I have hard to believe americans have so suddenly changed, so now theyre even less racistic than europeans. Most of you americans are "europeans" anyways. We are so similar so its most likely just as much racism in europe as in america.
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I agree Siben, ive never met an american police, but ive seen Cops on tv at least. They act quite different than the polices in Norway i have met. But on the other hand, the norwegian police never meat any problems at work, while the american police have alot more dangerous job.
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Megaraptor, your link is too much too read.
::) ::) ::)
Like you say its less racism there, while just around 250 years ago they were ethnically cleaning out the natives in their entire continent, and killed them and put the rest in reservation.
Well, need I remind you that Europeans were ethnically cleansing and killing certain groups both 15 and 65 years ago ::) ::) ::)
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I think this thread is way past it's expiration date. ::)
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hey nazis , how dare you to call slavic people subhumans?????
15/20 years later in the land of the free
HEY NIGGER YOU ARENT ALLOWED ON THE WHITE PEOPLE BUS
Well, at least we didn't round them all up and kill them in death camps. Europe's racism may be mostly be in the past, but I don't want Euros saying anything about the US being racist.
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Little over a week ago a border patrol officer shot a unarmed 14 year old imigrant dead. Hunting isn't the correct term, but what would you call killing unarmed 14 year olds trowing stones? Self defence? I am sure something less drastic was possible.
souce (dutch):
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/1116399/2010/06/09/Amerikaanse-grenswachter-doodt-14-jarige-Mexicaan.dhtml
I can't read your source, but the 14 year old in question was a drug smuggler and part of a gang which started throwing stones at the border patrol agent who was trying to make an arrest. Not exactly an innocent bystander.
The article said Immigrant, not struggler, but if your right then it's still excessive force since they had no firearm and where throwing rocks. The US police is known for that so nothing special there tough. I had friends visiting the us and they all say the same, impolite and they almost all think they are the law in person and you have to do exactly as they order you. Completely different then here where the police is really there to help you, not harras you (cept for the speeding and parking tickets, grrrr)
Oddball, for 16 year olds i would say yes to you, but 14 is a tad young.
14 is not to young. On top of that the little fucker attacked Border Patrolmen, what do you expect.
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hey nazis , how dare you to call slavic people subhumans?????
15/20 years later in the land of the free
HEY NIGGER YOU ARENT ALLOWED ON THE WHITE PEOPLE BUS
Well, at least we didn't round them all up and kill them in death camps. Europe's racism may be mostly be in the past, but I don't want Euros saying anything about the US being racist.
cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
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cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
No, it's just much worse when you kill people.
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cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
No, it's just much worse when you kill people.
OH HEY ITS MISTER LETS KILL 3.4-5 MILLION VIETNAMESE AND ITS A SHAME IT STOPPED ROFL
GOOD TO KNOW YOU THINK KILLING PEOPLE OF ANOTHER RACE IS REALLY BAD
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cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
No, it's just much worse when you kill people.
OH HEY ITS MISTER LETS KILL 3.4-5 MILLION VIETNAMESE AND ITS A SHAME IT STOPPED ROFL
GOOD TO KNOW YOU THINK KILLING PEOPLE OF ANOTHER RACE IS REALLY BAD
Stop trolling? You always compare scenerios that arn't even similar! It was 2 Million for the info, and it was nothing to do with racism, it was a legal conflict and the vietnamese killed more than we did AFTER WE LEFT! In general, killing anyone is usually bad, but sometimes it's necessary? Really? Are you really as simplistic as you sound?
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cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
No, it's just much worse when you kill people.
OH HEY ITS MISTER LETS KILL 3.4-5 MILLION VIETNAMESE AND ITS A SHAME IT STOPPED ROFL
GOOD TO KNOW YOU THINK KILLING PEOPLE OF ANOTHER RACE IS REALLY BAD
Stefan has always been a troll, what else should we expect from him. God forbid he might say something intelligent for a change.
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cause racism is ok as long as you dont kill ppl :) !
No, it's just much worse when you kill people.
OH HEY ITS MISTER LETS KILL 3.4-5 MILLION VIETNAMESE AND ITS A SHAME IT STOPPED ROFL
GOOD TO KNOW YOU THINK KILLING PEOPLE OF ANOTHER RACE IS REALLY BAD
Stop trolling? You always compare scenerios that arn't even similar! It was 2 Million for the info, and it was nothing to do with racism, it was a legal conflict and the vietnamese killed more than we did AFTER WE LEFT! In general, killing anyone is usually bad, but sometimes it's necessary? Really? Are you really as simplistic as you sound?
hey osama bin laden really thought it was necesarry to fly planes into the WTC
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...Yes, obviously, and now we will destroy him and his people until we feel better. :) Which is also necessary then.
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Stefan dude, think before you type.
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i think the problem is you guys dont understand trolling or sarcasm..... i did my best to make it obvious.....
But its fun to pretend to be a racist and redneck and basicly just copy paste previous excuses to kill people :)
saves me alot of typing this way.
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Well since you have long since run out of any valid points I guess trolling is all you have left.
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Well since you have long since run out of any valid points I guess trolling is all you have left.
This here :)
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Well, i don't know how it is in the US on this example but let me tell you guys something i noticed.
When i walk around Brussels on my own people don't really pay much attention to me. I sometimes get a glimp out of the corner of there eyes but that is it. Now when i walk next to one of my black african friends suddenly people will stare a lot more (lets say 1 in 10) some even keep looking even when they are past you (how rude is that) and others you can see frowning in a disaproving way when they look at you. I guess people don't approve a White boy and Black girl walking next to each other as friends talking.
Now, the people that do this are not all white, to be more precise they are about equally white and black. (this is sort of proof that no mater what race you are, people are just as racist in the same quantities)
When i walk next to an arab girl the same happens, but this time the black people don't seem to care but all arabs/muslims do.
Now what does this tell us? Could it be, what i said before, that for some reason people (can't put a number on it, but definatly over 25%) don't want to mix with other population groups? That they want there bloodline to be "pure"?
Now, this could be seen as racism, but i don't agree to that, i think its a natural thing to most people to try and stay with there own. It becomes racism when they start yelling things at you. they they do something more then just disagreeing, even if it is in a visible way.
Oh, and when i was in london people did not stare, they seem to accept it much more there.
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they wont stare in holland either! come here and interbreed with all the ethnic minorities ! yay!
more power to interbreeding \o/
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I would say americans perhaps are less racistic inside USA, since theyre all are immigrants. All americans who are not natives would be quite arrogant if they thought they had more rights as immigrants than immigrants from other countries than where they come from.
But in my impression americans have less respect for the lives of the people in other nations than america. Usually americans have a different approach than other nations when theres international conflicts. They bomb like it should be a total war, to save their own soldiers, not caring about tens of thousands, or millions of innocent civilians die. America is quite often on the war-path, while european nations try to stay away, but the americans nag and demand they also join as allies. I think thats quite racistic. To think yourself has the right to control other nations with different races, kill people, and hang their leaders, is very racistic. Of course, europe had Hitler, i guess he gives us quite many racist-points, but on the other hand, all europe hate hitler, and try to have an attitude to racism opposite of what Hitler had.
Another thing is europe consist of many VERY different nations. Everything from Iceland to Turkey, from Spain to Russia. You compare one nation to an entire continent which have a broad specter of culture. Then i mean official national cultures who influence the government, not that you have a street with different ethnical families, which still have the same governmental structure and national culture.
Europe still lives on ancient land, still suffering from old disputes about land, religion and culture, while the americans dont since they just took an entire continent from another race and got a fresh start.
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Total war is the one kind of winnable war. Without the pointless sacrifice of your own soldiers or contradiction from other nations/people who dont fully understand the situation or wern't directly effected by the enemy, so all they see is death of "innocent" people; especially when some of the enemy are "civilians". I disagree with your viewpoint of America always trying to hop into war... we tried to avoid it during WW1, WW2, other nations civil wars, and various other minor wars. However, we recieved much discredit for doing that... we start to get involved and wow, we turnt into the "World Police"...it's a lose lose situation. All the wars we've been involved with I consider just. What do you expect, you must defend your country and support your allies if you expect them to be there for you. Not to mention Europe had many more radical and tryanical leaders that just Hitler.
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You have many good points, and its very hard to compare the sizes of different conflicts. But im pretty sure USA have been in more military campaigns in newer history than any other single country, by far.
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You have many good points, and its very hard to compare the sizes of different conflicts. But im pretty sure USA have been in more military campaigns in newer history than any other single country, by far.
You gotta compare reigning superpowers though. Has the US been on more campaigns than say, the UK in the 19th century?
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Cause being a "superpower" excuses everything !
oh yeah dont forget to compare to the roman empire!
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I have no idea about how many military campaigns UK have been in, but in the 20th century i guess america have been in more. And after ww2 its no doubt america have been in more.
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I have no idea about how many military campaigns UK have been in, but in the 20th century i guess america have been in more. And after ww2 its no doubt america have been in more.
Here's an answer for your second question. (http://tinyurl.com/363z83b)
And an answer for your first. (http://tinyurl.com/2u5tq2m)
Cause being a "superpower" excuses everything !
oh yeah dont forget to compare to the roman empire!
Very well Stefan, I wasn't planning on bringing this up but your broad-brush country bashing leaves me with no other choice (http://tinyurl.com/2bs236x)
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I have no idea about how many military campaigns UK have been in, but in the 20th century i guess america have been in more. And after ww2 its no doubt america have been in more.
Here's an answer for your second question. (http://tinyurl.com/363z83b)
And an answer for your first. (http://tinyurl.com/2u5tq2m)
Cause being a "superpower" excuses everything !
oh yeah dont forget to compare to the roman empire!
Very well Stefan, I wasn't planning on bringing this up but your broad-brush country bashing leaves me with no other choice (http://tinyurl.com/2bs236x)
its cause you are anti european!
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We are not anti-european, we are anti-you :-*
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ok thats it i wont post anymore cause you guys dont think logical and im the victim of your bullying
bye
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ok thats it i wont post anymore cause you guys dont think logical and im the victim of your bullying
bye
This guy is a comedian... I know it!
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Let's return to the topic at hand, shall we?
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Let's return to the topic at hand, shall we?
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Ugh, so much for subtile hints/requests.
*deletes some OffTopic posts*
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Here's a nice video summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4lspU3_RXM&feature=player_embedded
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Here's a nice video summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4lspU3_RXM&feature=player_embedded
thank you raptor, i trust israelian channel to give me an idea what happened!
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Here's a nice video summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4lspU3_RXM&feature=player_embedded
thank you raptor, i trust israelian channel to give me an idea what happened!
I thought you left this thread? ;D
Nah just kidding Stefan. I like to keep both sides of a debate open even if one is just all heart no brains.
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All the info there was about the incident got out within 48 hours, and i read/watched all of it, i dont know why i need to view an edited video from a media channel that picks side and gives their opinion hoping to change your mind ( propaganda ).
My offer still stands to the Israelian gouvernment, if you really think you acted in a perfectly right way during this incident, then release all the footage you have from beginning to start unedited if it proves what you said happened, same for the confiscated footage of the media onboard.
Cause the facts and eye wittness accounts do not speak in your favor.
the truth shall set you free.
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All the info there was about the incident got out within 48 hours, and i read/watched all of it, i dont know why i need to view an edited video from a media channel that picks side and gives their opinion hoping to change your mind ( propaganda ).
My offer still stands to the Israelian gouvernment, if you really think you acted in a perfectly right way during this incident, then release all the footage you have from beginning to start unedited if it proves what you said happened, same for the confiscated footage of the media onboard.
Cause the facts and eye wittness accounts do not speak in your favor.
the truth shall set you free.
Lol, yeah I love the irony of that video with the "the truth" and all. And I too am still waiting for what must me tens of hours of video footage from all those cameras used by both the convoy and Isrealy forces.
The most obvious flaws in that "truth" video:
- It doesn't mention UN reports on how much goods really are required for the Gaza population, instead it mentions that they deliver X amount of tons of goods which sounds sort of impressive untill you would read UN reports on how many tons are truely needed.
- It suggests that all (aid) goods are allowed in, it doesn't mention the rather extensive list of banned items. Instead it suggests it only filters out dangerous items such as weapons (and concrete... and wood and... ::) ).
- The radio communication between the vessels only copies offensive replies such as "go back to Auschwitz" and not the replies such as by that woman who calmely explained that they meant no harm and are heading to Gaza port, with permission of the Gaza authorities, to deliver aid goods.
- Starting the report of want went on during the boarding mission at the stage were some soldiers were dropped on the deck and then assaulted with metal pipes (mostly) and (some?) knives by what seams to be a dozen or so people out of the many many people onboard. It would be nice to start out with them firing paintball (and rubber?) bullets at the ship shortly before boarding the ship. Then show the footage of the soldiers being assaulted, followed by how the soldiers responded. Giving a brief overview on how people on both sides got (heavily) injured or killed etc. to leave it up to the viewer to determine what reaction (by whom) was understandable or out of proportion.
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Some of you probably heard about this game before and played it, but for those who did not, here is a link. Try to make the dreams of there people come true, i am sure you can do it :)
http://www.spg.org.il/
Also, Israel has restarted its colonisation process of Palestinian territory again after a 10 month stop 'ordered' by the us. Expect more to happen when it ends on the 26th.
Also, in the annexed east Jerusalem 22 Palestinian houses are being demolished to build Israeli shops, art galleries, restaurants and a community centre.
*sigh* what a nice gesture of Israel to get peace, demolition more Palestinian houses and take more territory. That strategy will definatly work. Especially when you don't want peace but just theire land.
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Some of you probably heard about this game before and played it, but for those who did not, here is a link. Try to make the dreams of there people come true, i am sure you can do it :)
http://www.spg.org.il/
Why do these game developers think Israel put these security measures in place? Just because they enjoy making life difficult for people?
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Some of you probably heard about this game before and played it, but for those who did not, here is a link. Try to make the dreams of there people come true, i am sure you can do it :)
http://www.spg.org.il/
Why do these game developers think Israel put these security measures in place? Just because they enjoy making life difficult for people?
If you would finish the game you would find out that the designers say that violence is not the solution but peace talks are. They are just giving examples of what these security measures also do. Things that are completely unrelated to anything violent. Also, some rules in this game are in effect since 1968, like not being allowed to leave gaza without a special permission of the Israeli army. Saying that you have been excepted in a university outside of gaza and that you would like to go there to study is not a valid reason to get a permit. This is just delibirately making life hard on those people. They are not even giving them a chance to try and improve. Keeping a population uneducated will only increase fundamentalism.
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People can leave Gaza. My Arabic professor at University grew up in the Gaza Strip before emigrating to the USA. He could travel back to visit family (before the Hamas takeover).
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and the Belgian/German ministers arent allowed into gaza.
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Just seen news on the internet, says european ministers will be/are allowed to enter gaza.
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Just seen news on the internet, says european ministers will be/are allowed to enter gaza.
Wasnt true till a couple of days ago
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I know, its NEWS.
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LOL!
Why are they allowing them in anyway?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle+east-10646355
The issue at hand which prevents peace
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East Jerusalem was annexed to Israel decades ago, why can't Israeli citizens move there? Does the government of Belgium say you can't move to Antwerp?
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i know you are retarded megaraptor, but ill write it for those who wonder whats going on .
By moving in jews to east jerusalem israel wants to claim east jerusalem, 2 state solution would mean at least east jerusalem would become palestine land even if you use the 1967 borders.
Thats why israel doesnt want peace at the moment and keeps building settlements in palestine land or as in the jerusalem case pushing them out.
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i know you are retarded megaraptor, but ill write it for those who wonder whats going on .
By moving in jews to east jerusalem israel wants to claim east jerusalem, 2 state solution would mean at least east jerusalem would become palestine land even if you use the 1967 borders.
Thats why israel doesnt want peace at the moment and keeps building settlements in palestine land or as in the jerusalem case pushing them out.
Yes and so what? 1967 borders will never become the boundaries of a Palestinian state so give it up already. 1967 borders are nothing but a military accident of the 1948 war. They have no real importance in and of themselves and this fuss about "returning" to them is bullcrap.
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i know you are retarded megaraptor, but ill write it for those who wonder whats going on .
By moving in jews to east jerusalem israel wants to claim east jerusalem, 2 state solution would mean at least east jerusalem would become palestine land even if you use the 1967 borders.
Thats why israel doesnt want peace at the moment and keeps building settlements in palestine land or as in the jerusalem case pushing them out.
Yes and so what? 1967 borders will never become the boundaries of a Palestinian state so give it up already. 1967 borders are nothing but a military accident of the 1948 war. They have no real importance in and of themselves and this fuss about "returning" to them is bullcrap.
well in that case we can go back to the 1948 borders ;)
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i know you are retarded megaraptor, but ill write it for those who wonder whats going on .
By moving in jews to east jerusalem israel wants to claim east jerusalem, 2 state solution would mean at least east jerusalem would become palestine land even if you use the 1967 borders.
Thats why israel doesnt want peace at the moment and keeps building settlements in palestine land or as in the jerusalem case pushing them out.
Yes and so what? 1967 borders will never become the boundaries of a Palestinian state so give it up already. 1967 borders are nothing but a military accident of the 1948 war. They have no real importance in and of themselves and this fuss about "returning" to them is bullcrap.
well in that case we can go back to the 1948 borders ;)
What 1948 borders?
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What 1948 borders?
You know, when Israel was formed from the state of Palestine. ::)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.png)
The Nazis had a name for what the Israelis are doing, "Lebensraum" or "Living Space".
It amazes me how little the Israeli Government has learnt from the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis, actually they seemed to have learned quite a bit. Clearly the holocaust makes Israel immune from the constraints of international law.
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well, looks like they can, as the world does nothing to stop them, other than saying "thats bad, dont do it*pat on the shoulder*"
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What i like is how everyone in europe and america can just sit here in the safety of their homes and sit on their ivory towers and judge them. Israel has been in an almost constant state of war for quite some time now. Its a completely different world over there and until you have been there i dont think you can truly pass any judgment on the situation.
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What i like is how everyone in europe and america can just sit here in the safety of their homes and sit on their ivory towers and judge them. Israel has been in an almost constant state of war for quite some time now. Its a completely different world over there and until you have been there i dont think you can truly pass any judgment on the situation.
i read a big excuse not denying the facts
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You know, when Israel was formed from the state of Palestine. ::)
There never was a "state of Palestine."
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What i like is how everyone in europe and america can just sit here in the safety of their homes and sit on their ivory towers and judge them. Israel has been in an almost constant state of war for quite some time now. Its a completely different world over there and until you have been there i dont think you can truly pass any judgment on the situation.
Cool well, I am glad i can still say isreal is an asshole and should stop invading Palestine. They do make very good hand creme in Israel though, i give em props for that.
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What i like is how everyone in europe and america can just sit here in the safety of their homes and sit on their ivory towers and judge them. Israel has been in an almost constant state of war for quite some time now. Its a completely different world over there and until you have been there i dont think you can truly pass any judgment on the situation.
Cool well, I am glad i can still say isreal is an asshole and should stop invading Palestine. They do make very good hand creme in Israel though, i give em props for that.
Here is an opportunity to read it again siben.
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What i like is how everyone in europe and america can just sit here in the safety of their homes and sit on their ivory towers and judge them. Israel has been in an almost constant state of war for quite some time now. Its a completely different world over there and until you have been there i dont think you can truly pass any judgment on the situation.
Cool well, I am glad i can still say isreal is an asshole and should stop invading Palestine. They do make very good hand creme in Israel though, i give em props for that.
Here is an opportunity to read it again siben.
yeah, reading it again makes me think he meant Gaza, not Jeruzalem. I have not been to Gaza.
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Yikes, yikes, what have I missed....i've been away from civilization for 2 weeks... is Palestine still alive? ::)