"Ban" limited kits in Armored Vehicles

[THeTA0123]

Natty is right! LETS ALL GO BATTLEFIELD 3 CAUSE ITS A REAL GAME!

[hOMEr_jAy]

Natty, that´s the so-called "ASA framework", an idea that comes from organizational behaviour studies.
It stands for "attraction, selection, attrition" and explains how organizations often have "same minded" members, who share common goals.
Now, I know, games aren´t organizations, but the idea can be used in that situation, nonetheless.

Maybe the PR devs don´t want people to play their mod who just want to jump onto a server, frag some guys and get a shiny new medal for it?
As I said earlier, those "realism games" attract a certain "breed" of gamers. Those who want to make a certain experience, one that feels as close to "reality" as possible.
Because of that these players have no problems with what you see as "arbitrary" rules because they know that real life is full of such limitations and rules. And therefore they´re okay with not being able to crew tanks as riflemen etc.

Also, keep in mind that PR has extensive manuals and even gives a player feedback on why he can´t crew a tank without a certain kit. This is the selection process.
If you´re unable to read through the manual and seem to ignore in-game warnings ("You need the crewman kit to command this vehicle", in yellow letters on your HUD), this game might really not be your cup of tea.

In the end, attrition "weeds" those out who try to play the game nonetheless, but lose interest, later on. This leads to a rather homogeneous player base: the "realism" crowd.

This process is actually quite easy, but works for many things. There´s a reason we´ve got people playing all sorts of different games, because tastes differ.

I know, you´re universal idea of "fun" is something like "quick action, lots of shiny medals and perks to keep players busy" and it seems to be widely accepted that with that sort of gameplay you can attract most players (and commercial games seem to make the most profit like that).

But again, keep in mind that there are "niche" gamers who prefer rather unusual (=not standard) games and your "universal fun"-scheme can´t be fully applied to them.


To get back to your "new guy is frustrated because he can´t use a tank as rifleman"-theory:
To be fairly honest, if a new player can´t be bothered to read a manual, watch those brilliantly done training videos or read and understand a simple message that tells him why he can´t do that, he might not be the audience, FH2 is looking for.


FH2 already differs so much from your "standard fun games", by trying to simulate real-life aspects, I can´t see why adding a few others would be soo, soo bad.
As I said earlier, many gameplay mechanics restrict players already quite heavily, adding a few others, that would actually make sense and add more to the "realistic WW2"-feeling FH2 is trying to emulate won´t hurt.
Why?
Because FH2 already has an "unusual gamer breed" as playerbase. Most people here have a certain demand (historical accuracy, mainly) and if FH2 would move further away from the playerbase and turn into what you see as "fun" shooter, that could not end well.

[Natty]

Since when is it healthy to "breed" your audience in to a homogenous sect group of people who think exactly the same? I rather have free thinkers, creative people and fun, positive people who brings some dynamics to the game.
Only in places like the military do you want to breed people in to mindless drones who cant think for themselves, and let me remind you being a player of a BF2 mod is not being in the military.

And it's actually way more simple to force people to use certain kits or so, than to just let anyone do what they want (within reason), it forces you to take more things in to consideration while designing, instead of just hand them a manual and say "do this, or get banned"

I dont care if you think my idea of fun is "quick action, lots of shiny medals and perks to keep players busy", Im sure you're trolling when you say that.. also Im a bit sad, I expected you to be able to come up with a wittyer example of what I think "fun" is. Now you went for the cheap shot, and you missed.

No, that is not my definition of fun

"if a new player can´t be bothered to..." etc... I look at it this way: - If designers cant be bothered to develop a system that encourages or promotes a behaviour they're looking for, then perhaps that game isn't really worth the time invested by the player. That said (again) we dont have a problem. Players behave as we want, and in my years in this mod, I dont think I ever heard a dev or even a tester taking about enforcing certain kits to drive certain vehicles. You are making this up just to fill the forum with something. Actually, it did come up about a year ago in a discussion I was managing, but pretty much all the devs were against it. Not worth the time investment, and wouldnt guarantee better experience, was the verdict.

We have a very high roof up until this mod becomes "stupid" or "arcade" or however you prefer to call it. We're nearly empty of players, anything we can do to make it more accessible for players and reach out to those who might be just slightly interested in ww2 shooters, or those who cant keep up with the current-gen games, or those simply want to see new things, Im all for. I mean what would you prefer, play on one server with the same 30-40 people every day, or see new people come in and like what they see, and stay, tell their friends etc? Do they all need to first walk through the jury of 'are you hardcore enough' to be accepted in to this little community? I dont think so, I think we should let everyone enjoy this cool mod, because it is, cool, fun, pretty, exciting, epic, you name it. Just needs to take its head out its arse once and a while and acknowledge when things dont work. Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.

[ajappat]

Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.

Must be hard with your own head down there.

[hOMEr_jAy]

Natty, I´m not sure if I didn´t explain the "ASA framework" correctly or you fail to understand it, but it definately does not mean an active "breeding", where players are turned into something they´re not.
It simply means that "if people like something, they stay; if not, they leave".
It´s a theory that tries to explain why people with common interests or goals work or come together, nothing else.
I hope you understood that now...
Btw, during my service in the German Army I haven´t experienced anyone trying to turn others into "mindless drones who cant think for themselves". I´m not sure if you´re just trolling there or if you had some very bad personal experiences...

Anyway, I don´t really know what you´re definition of fun is, that´s right, but then we´re not best friends who share their innermost secrets with each other. I only read snippets of your posts and interprete them.

This whole discussion has become pointless, now anyway, since you just said that the majority of devs have decided that this isn´t a real problem and it would take too much effort to find a solution.
If someone, anyone who was involved in that discussion would have just said that, we wouldn´t waste our time, trying to find solutions for a problem that doesn´t exist in the devs eyes.
If the players are happy with that "solution" is another question, though and the future will tell if the course FH2 has taken was the right one.

Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.

Is that your definition of fun? Yikes... 

[MaJ.P.Bouras]

FH2: Accessible, easy to do everything, tons of action and really fun to play
PR: not easily accessible by pubbie players, hard to achieve anything unless you try hard,requires hours to play and master its ways, boring gameplay at many occasions


Now compare player count on an average evening


Yeah.....I think your logic is flawed Natty. Seems to me that players actually prefer restrictions that define who is better and who is not by the quality of their training and reckoning and not by ping.

[Natty]

sure homer, it's a nice wording, the "ASA" stuff, we apply it in FH2 as well. And you know what happens? Too many people leave than what we're happy with.
Since 2.4 release we've had over 13,000 people downloading and played FH2. How many of them are now playing?... you know the numbers. It means a churn rate of over 90%, easily.. maybe 95% even.

Why do they leave?

I promise you that PR has the same amount of churners. Maybe they cant track how many players actually play their mod, but Im willing to be they lose 90% off all people who download and installs it, tries it and just cant be bothered.

Both mods make huge mistakes, they cater to an already very very small group of players (People with BF2) and to cut off 90% of them immediately.. I fail to see the reason. To maintain an ultra-hardcore little click of 120 people "who gets it"?. naah, waste of time if you ask me.

PR could be so nice if they also just, did some head-pulling. I mean it's such a simple mod. big battlefield 2 with improved animations, sounds etc.. teamplay focus and all that. Yet, the boredom churns players that are actively seeking that type of game play!
Just like FH2 churns many players with bad map design, or way too many deaths all the time. Players simply dont install a mod to view the spawn menu all the time, they want to be part of the action, not a victim of it.

Shooter games are so very simple if you look at it not drousy from immersion or meta-values. The only thing you do is to use the geometry and mechanics to outmaneuver the enemy and "tag" him before he "tags" you. This basic thing - just like driving in a racing game - is the fundamental. Unless that works, and provides fun for the player, he won't enoy the game, even if the rest of it is awesome, be it epic large landscapes, nice sounds, pretty french houses or photorealistic textures.
Immersion doesnt come from pretending, or graphics, or sounds, or "teamplay" or "realism"..it comes from being in control of the game.
Sure the hardcore PR click who has spent thousands of hours mastering every little thing in the game, they feel in control. Just like a surgeon is control of the equipment he uses to saw little veins and bloodvessels together in a microscope, and sure FH2 players with +1000 counts will feel in control in the split-second round-the-corner crouch-1s1k engagements in FH2, but we dont worry about those, do we? They are already here to stay (they proved with those hours of playtime) but what about the new guys?
Dont we want them to stay? Or must they first pass through the initiation-rite fire to prove their manhood?
- Invest 500 hours of boredom, annoyances and frustration, and you too can have fun!

To me, that is cowardly from a dev perspective. Why not meet the challenge to design an experience that is "easy to learn, hard to master"? Why not be able to provide fun for the newcomers, as well as "depth" for the veterans? How come I have installed PR 4 times and played it, but given up after 2 hours of just being bored?... That is strange to me, being a huge Op.Flashpoint fan, loving slow and building action, liking long distance engagements etc... Is it because I dont "get it"?... No, really.. I do get it. I just dont like it, because I see past all the arbitrary rules and restrictions and what the devs really want me to do.
If I was encouraged to use a certain kit, or encouraged to join a squad, or behave in the prefered way, then I could swich on my "ok I accept the game rules" brain and do it. But when you get killed or kicked for not doing it. It's bye bye Mod.
Many people say bye bye FH2 as well, Im sure you have your theories to why that is, Id like to hear it.
Why did 13,000 people download and install this BF2 mod, but only a couple of hundred remained to this day? Is it because we are too "arcadey" and dont follow "history"? Or could there be something else....
Have a nice day! 

[SiCaRiO]

oh god, its like EA took the body of a human been and started posting on a forum 

[Kelmola]

Curiously enough, whenever someone suggests rewarding players for doing something, a wild dev appears and states that people should (EDIT: should not) be punished, and since rewarding someone leaves another without the reward, it's the same thing as punishment and thus a big no-no.

Now, I don't endorse "autokick-then-ban-if-you-don't-join-squads" or "wrong kit, you die", neither "derp, i can haz stabilizer, coax, nightvision and special ammo but you can't because i grind moar than you".

But offering concrete benefits (besides mobile spawnpoint) eg. for joining a squad - I remember when all my suggestions regarding this were shot down, but still would like to see some of those. As for other benefits.... Faster reload times with a tanker or engineer kit (or, slower without)? Yes please. "Tanker" kit repairs vehicles faster than "engineer", which repairs fixed guns faster in turn. You could still drive tanks with any kit, could fight with them also, but would be rewarded for the correct kit. Could go even as far as to introduce different movement speeds - with an AT, MG or engineer kit you would run slower (or tire faster) than with assault or recon kit. You could still pick up a different kit from the field (unlike in PR) and would gain the abilities of the new class instantly.

[Natty]

exactly Kelmola, see how easy it is "offering concrete benefits" I like that.. offering, not forcing.

Game telling you "hey, you can use this fun thing over here, but if you use it like this it will be even more fun!"

@Sicario... zzzzzzzz really?... was that the best you could do? "EA has taken human form"... you should be able to troll better than that, you've had enough training.

[gavrant]

I think it's time to lock these 7 pages of never-ending "Natty vs People" case. The discussion slipped to accusing half of the forum of trolling, out of context citations and theories about some imaginary spherical gamer in a vacuum, all made by one man.

[Natty]

What parts did you have problems understanding? I can explain a bit simplyfied if you like.

[General_Henry]

Now this has come to the future of forgotten hope, the question: What is Forgotten Hope 2 and what it would become? A game that tries to "bring awesome experience" to players that lines with the mainstream games. Or a game that tries to integrate historically accurate WWII atmosphere in a shooter?

This might not sounded like two contradicting ideas, a game could be both mainstream and with historically accurate WWII elements in it. Let's say, you could have a Tiger that beats a Sherman easily in a Normandy Battle, and that is what is called "historically accurate".

But people, WWII atmosphere is something much more subtle than historical accuracy.

Let's look at the self-repair issue. Yes, tanks do field repairs. As long as a tank could be repaired, it fits historical accuracy. You might argue that "yes make the tank vulnerable while self-repairing and viola". But how much WWII atmosphere is there is completely different thing. What would you think if you see a KT parked next to some bush, concealing itself, under the auto-repair system? First is that, you'll be confused - this tank is trying to lie in ambush 5 km from the frontlines, the driver is such a dumb-shit idiot wasting the KT. While it would be immediately clear if you see a guy next to the tank busy repairing the tank with his wrench. As that is what you'll see in the movies, what you'll expect from a WWII time-frame game.

WWII technology doesn't include the ability to fix a tank from the inside. Yes, you could include it for "streamline" purpose. But think of what direction it heads the mod to.

I am pretty busy now so that is all I could type. I am not a dev, and no matter what ideas I got, I could just post them here and let you guys discuss. Look at my suggestion in page 1, I think that is what everyone would love.

Natty is someone with a game-design talent. But my very personal opinion is that he is not suitable for forgotten hope, well, at least, in my own taste.

[LuckyOne]

Hmm let's see pilots use the pilot kit cause the parachute could potentialy save their life (or they use it for cheap backcapping but that's a different story). One thing that could work is to make people with limited kits unable (or simply slower) to bail their tanks (representing the trained tank crew as opposed to random grunts).

This could be seen as punishing the regular players... so if you don' t want to do this you have to give them some other reward, (such as more points, teamwork points etc.). Although Natty's ideas are quite good (and somewhat arcade sometimes) I feel they don't really fit this mod which tries to keep things reasonably realistic while not enforcing unnecessary rules and mechanics on the player.

[Natty]

Never seen a movie where one guy hops out and repairs a tank with a simple wrench.
Have however seen movies where the crew exits the tanks and repairs it while the shooter remains inside and keeps firing, holding off the enemies as his mates repair him (or puts out fire etc), this is what internal repair would simulate. (The invisible crew is the same invisible crew you always have, that reloads ammo for you, keeps you with endless fuel, operates your radio, drives, fires, Coax etc.)

WWII technology also didnt include GPS tracking system (minimap), soldiers summoned by magic powers, (SL spawn) Soldiers communicating via a text bases chat central (all chat) and hundreds more example, like magic wrench that repairs any vehicle by holding it up like Harry Potter's wand.

So that's it, internal repair would not be less "realistic", the only relevant question here is 'would it make the mod more fun or not?', Im not sure it would, TBH I think magic wrench works fine, just think it feels old and outdated mechanic, and it forces me to stop doing the thing I signed up to do at the mainbase; drive the tank.