Author Topic: Change The HUD  (Read 3419 times)

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #15 on: 08-02-2012, 14:02:37 »
Even now, one should not have a problem of seeing whether a firearm kills someone (have to admit, sometimes I do the "grenade scouting" myself). When the victim dies, the ragdoll animation is so exaggerated you cannot avoid seeing it. A walking/standing/crouching soldier will flop down very much unlike the prone animation - well, actually, this is not yet too exaggerated. However, a prone soldier, on the other hand, will suddenly raise his torso to vertical position and flail his arms. Almost like old war movies where the dead inevitably jump up, grasp their chest (no matter where they were shot), go rigid, and then fall over (even if in the cockpit of a fighter plane - The Dawn Patrol, I'm looking at you) :P

Offline djinn

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #16 on: 08-02-2012, 17:02:34 »
Actually, I am begining to think this may at least undergo some testing to see. maybe its worth removing.

ALOT of people are asking about losing the hit indicator. Nothing else, just that.

Someone start a poll in this thread maybe?

Offline CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #17 on: 08-02-2012, 17:02:54 »
Could hit indicators be removed for certain weapons and not for others? I wouldn't mind seeing them go for rifle or SMG kills but with anti-tank rifles it's hard enough to know you're hitting the target with hit indicators. (Although for the record, I'd happily trade those hit indicators if it meant AT rifles fired much straighter. I assume they are innacurate for obvious gameplay reasons but the fact remains I should be able to hit a half-track from 300m no problem, whereas now I may be missing by 10m either way. I'm fine with weapons being tough to master, and the tougher the better as far as I'm concerned, but there's nothing to master here. Practice doesn't change anything, you just have to hope you beat the odds).

I would be more than fine to lose the HUD.
« Last Edit: 08-02-2012, 17:02:16 by Andrew »
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Offline TASSER

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #18 on: 08-02-2012, 17:02:32 »
I'd be very interested to see how the game would play without the hit indicator. I'm sure it's something the more devoted players would really enjoy, but wouldn't be worth including at the cost of losing newcomers or the casual "hop on and frag a few" players. Assuming of course it would have that effect.
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Offline Atkins

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Re: remove the HUD, appreciate the game's beauty more
« Reply #19 on: 09-02-2012, 09:02:31 »


I decided to keep the hit-cross because of the way our maps are designed. We have made dark and messy maps where you can't anticipate or predict enemy movement at all. Up to the point where "tactics" become redundant. (just run around and suddenly bump in to enemy, fastest on the trigger wins. Or run somewhere thinking you are safe, then get popped by unseen enemy) This is why I want you to be able to get a hit-confirmation when shooting at enemies in the distance. For example firing rifles or MGs in to dark bushes far away.
If the maps were cleaner designed and simply better when it comes to player flow, collision points, predictable action bubbles, well communicated lines of sight etc, the cross wouldn't need to be there.

I am still not following this logic of yours, cos what I said earlier still applies no matter how far the enemy is or how well u see him. Heck , the same applies if u get the hit-cross or not, right?

No Death Message -->  you shoot again.

And if you just randomly shoot with a MG to some bush just to get a hit indicator, well isn't that in the borderline of cheating?

To Djinn, the idea is not to remove all feedback (which would mean a black screen and no audio btw) but to force ppl actually pay attention to what is happening in front of their eyes without resorting to fax/sms-message/diploma by post to notify them what they have just done.

And like Kelmola said, it is pretty obvious when a enemy dies cos of the ragdoll animations, so most of the time you don't even need DMs. But I can totally understand that removing DMs would create a huge outcry. Most ppl are just used to seeing who they kill, and get a kick of it. It is a insta-reward.

I would just like to say that there are up sides in removing DMs as well;
Getting the kill notification would not be the priority nr. 1 to ppl, but they would more likely start to concentrate on the next big notification/reward; Capping.
Removing DMs would also slow down the gameplay, cos of the uncertainty that it brings with it.
Ppl would generally concentrate on team work cos there would not be that much of a personal reward for killing ppl. I should add that FF notifications should still stay so that TKing would not be rampant. Also even if the game would not show who u killed, it could still show who killed you. I know PR is a curse word here, but all that I just said above can be seen happening in PR (and RnL), just cos there are no DMs.

But yeah, like I said, DMs will most likely never be taken away from FH2. Ppl are just so dependent on them in arcadish FPS games. But I could imagine that in some Fight Nights such changes could be made to bring more immersion and teamwork.

On the minimap; It sure helps to know where the friendlies are and so helps to avoid TKing. But I must insist that without it ppl would just pay more attention, yet again, to what is actually happening in their monitors (+ audio clues). And you always have the chance to check the overview map, although now it takes few seconds more of your time --> it slows down the gameplay pace.

Anyway, on a general notice; no matter what the devs do, change or not change stuff, they will always get negative feedback. Though changing stuff mostly brings more outcry but that is true in every aspect of human life. Ppl don't like that things change.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: remove the HUD, appreciate the game's beauty more
« Reply #20 on: 09-02-2012, 09:02:53 »
...
But yeah, like I said, DMs will most likely never be taken away from FH2. Ppl are just so dependent on them in arcadish FPS games. But I could imagine that in some Fight Nights such changes could be made to bring more immersion and teamwork.
...

Oh bugger off. The DM is an essential part of keeping the community together. I could just as well play against bots in SP if Iwouldn't get feedback on whom I killed on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with arcade, it's socializing in a game. Nothing more and nothing less. This counts especially for Fight Nights.
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Offline djinn

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Re: remove the HUD, appreciate the game's beauty more
« Reply #21 on: 09-02-2012, 10:02:30 »
To Djinn, the idea is not to remove all feedback (which would mean a black screen and no audio btw) but to force ppl actually pay attention to what is happening in front of their eyes without resorting to fax/sms-message/diploma by post to notify them what they have just done.

Actually, I am begining to think this may at least undergo some testing to see. maybe its worth removing.

ALOT of people are asking about losing the hit indicator. Nothing else, just that.

Someone start a poll in this thread maybe?

Ya, no fucking way should we lose the DM. I can't stand PR because lets not deceive ourselves, there is only so much teamplay VOIP and BF2 engine will allow, so without this, the game is very, very dull. Shooting guns in BF2 engfine is not engaging enough to justify gameplay without DM.

Offline Atkins

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Re: remove the HUD, appreciate the game's beauty more
« Reply #22 on: 09-02-2012, 11:02:05 »
...
But yeah, like I said, DMs will most likely never be taken away from FH2. Ppl are just so dependent on them in arcadish FPS games. But I could imagine that in some Fight Nights such changes could be made to bring more immersion and teamwork.
...

Oh bugger off. The DM is an essential part of keeping the community together. I could just as well play against bots in SP if Iwouldn't get feedback on whom I killed on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with arcade, it's socializing in a game. Nothing more and nothing less. This counts especially for Fight Nights.

QQ.
I disagree. Communities keep perfectly together without DMs. Just cos you can't imagine a gameplay without DMs doesn't mean that it is perfectly possible to play without them and it would not make a game or a mod bad. PR (the curse word) is one good example. DM is definitely there to give players the insta-gratification. Sure it serves other purposes as well but I assert that the insta-reward is a big part of it if not the biggest. And yes it is part of a fast paced, arcade game.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #23 on: 09-02-2012, 12:02:38 »
As far as I find DMs unrealistic I would hate to see them go... Now making them delayed by a few seconds... That would work... It would bring a bit of tension when you throw a nade in that house the enemy MG is hiding and think "Did I really get him or will I become minced meat if I step through that door?"
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Offline djinn

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #24 on: 09-02-2012, 12:02:39 »
Why change a damn thing.

There are some things that are part of the game design.

Look at Fh1. it worked. Now Fh2 is clearly an update. But you cant make a completely different game and call it a sequel.

Use immersion if you dont want the HUD. All things go. Why impose it on everyone when clearly most dont want that?

Offline Atkins

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #25 on: 09-02-2012, 13:02:06 »
Indeed, let's lock the whole sub-forum and do not even discuss these heretic ideas.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: remove the HUD, appreciate the game's beauty more
« Reply #26 on: 09-02-2012, 13:02:45 »
QQ.
I disagree. Communities keep perfectly together without DMs. Just cos you can't imagine a gameplay without DMs doesn't mean that it is perfectly possible to play without them and it would not make a game or a mod bad. PR (the curse word) is one good example. DM is definitely there to give players the insta-gratification. Sure it serves other purposes as well but I assert that the insta-reward is a big part of it if not the biggest. And yes it is part of a fast paced, arcade game.

QQ and insta... wow we're leet aren't we? ^^

Anyhow:
I could again argue that you, not you specifically but most people, play PR in a squad and thus the enemy you are killing is not important for you, but the goal of winning a position is more the point there. I on the other hand play FH2 for the fun of killing arch enemies or friends and thus it is important to me to have a DM. You see I can imagine FH2 without DMs and I've always come to the conclusion, that it would kill the fun it needs. A main reason why I don't play PR is, because it isn't fun in the time-frame that I can spare to play a game in.

I could agree on a time delay in the DM feedback (and I have always have voiced this), but removing it would be a grave mistake imho. Hit feedback and target crosses can all go, even the minimap could be reduced, but DMs need to stay.
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Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #27 on: 09-02-2012, 13:02:25 »
Why change a damn thing.

There are some things that are part of the game design.

Look at Fh1. it worked. Now Fh2 is clearly an update. But you cant make a completely different game and call it a sequel.

Use immersion if you dont want the HUD. All things go. Why impose it on everyone when clearly most dont want that?

Of course it worked... Because compared to vanilla '42 it seemed like a completely different game... The sheer amount of content, the realistic weapons handling, the historical background... And of course it was a different time, the golden time of arcadey goodness and people simply didn't know better!

Now if we compare FH 2 with vanilla BF 2 we can see the same difference, but we now know that it can always be made better, that it has the potential to play out almost like if you were really there, and that's why we want changes...

 There's quite a lot of people who yet have to make the 42->2 transition but there's also the other much bigger number, people who went 2->3 and won't be coming back to 2 for the same old gameplay that worked in '42. They need something unique, something different to make them say "Wow this game seems so cool, it's really special."


And yes I agree with you Reporter, FH is for those who can't spare 3 hours of sitting in a bush and waiting for enemy convoy to pass. It's a decently fast paced shooter with historical background, but that doesn't mean we can't make it more intense and at the same time a bit slower paced, right?
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Offline djinn

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #28 on: 09-02-2012, 13:02:34 »
It game theory.

Games require a challenge that is not too easy to beat, but which players can learn to beat and get better at, then there is the reward for it, then there is a new challenge.

Reward is a bit more then just feedback, its the whole point of playing.

Yes, you may get a medal of sorts, you see your rank on the board, but those come after the game is done or few times during the game, if at all. What does serve as instant gratification and is more of a drive than any other, is fragging people. So without the names of who killed who with what, you take away a CORE aspect of Forgotten Hope gameplay.

You change that, and really ANYTHING goes.

Offline Atkins

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Re: Change The HUD
« Reply #29 on: 09-02-2012, 14:02:38 »
Don't worry djinn, no one is gonna take the DMs away from you. As i stated before, i don't think it either that FH2 will ever remove DMs. FH2 is way to deep in to the development to do such a radical change. You can already see the huge outcry that just the talking of the concept brings about.

I was just pointing out that there are other aspects in FPS games than just fragging, and by reducing the reward for fragging, u might increase the reward for teamwork, or just more objective oriented gameplay. And perhaps some fight night organizer might wanna experiment and see what happens. I agree that fragging is a big part of several games, such as FH2, and this was the very reason I was talking about the insta-reward, which after all seems to be quite big deal for DLFreporter as well, be that he just needs to see his name killing a friends avatar's name.

Anyway, it seems that suggesting (or rather just discussing) somewhat more radical changes makes ppl accept less rad alterations, like the hit-cross indicator, or just delaying DMs (like in DH, and was that in RO2 now as well, cant recall) :)