There have been a lot of suggestions in the past, and some recent threads that have started out as/eventually turned into a discussion about changing the commander role in FH2. The reason I made a new thread on this topic is not for it to be so much of a suggestion, but more of a discourse about the commander in FH2. It seems to be at the heart of a lot of suggestions and discussions on FH2s gameplay and imo resolving the issue of the commander will not only help FH2 but other gameplay issues that might arise from it.
This thread is about outlining a discussion amongst the devs and forum users as to what to do with the commander role; more specifically how can we make the role of the commander a more fun and useful position in FH2? In it I’ll outline how I think we should question the commander role while also giving my own ideas for the commander in FH2. What I’m looking for is an honest discussion about how people feel the commander should be played. Outline your own ideas as I’m doing here, create your own huge walls of text that can be read and assessed by people, or build upon someone else’s ideas so we can get properly formulated suggestions. All I ask is that we keep it simple. Let’s suggest things we know are possible or are at least within the realm of possibility of what can be done by this engine. (obviously no “canz we h@ve commander NUKZ!?!” suggestions) What I hope is that this discussion will result in ideas being jogged loose and built upon so in the end we have a well defined gameplay design for the commander in FH2, one that the devs can hopefully implement in the future; or not.
However, before we can discuss how to make the commander better, we first have to ask if it’s worth it. Do we keep the commander and expand on it (improve it, make it more important/want to be played); or would it help FH2s game design better to simply remove the commander altogether and put logistics/ support in the hands of the players (kind of as we have now)?
(Imo, I’d like to see the commander position kept in FH2 and made better, so what I discuss from here on is assuming the Commander position to be in FH2.)
Right now I would say the commander is dead skin, just leftover from FH2s inception. It had a lot of potential, but pumping out models and other gameplay changes eventually got in the way and its game design fell to the wayside. I think the commander has a lot of potential currently, and a lot of great gameplay dynamics can arise from a well designed commander position.
FH basic training command and tactics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnvqChuQX8U&list=PL0059528BCA568F9B&index=7What should the role of the commander be defined as?
“Commander should coordinate the team and give guidance to the individual squads, monitors the overall situation and decides the strategy.” That’s a quote from PR’s guide about what their commander role is.
PR Guide and overview on how their commander is set up:
http://www.realitymod.com/manual/pr_manual.pdfImo the PR commander is a good place to start, it’s well developed and works well for THEIR gameplay. Seeing what it does right and wrong can help us make FH2s commander position even better.
The commander should realistically coordinate the team and decide strategy but the world of FH is very different from the world of PR. People don’t constantly communicate with one another over VOIP or Mumble, people in FH want to do their own thing, that’s what FH is geared toward. Give the players fun assets to use, and if used correctly, they can give their team the upper hand to win the battle.
Because of this I see the commander almost as another class, a class with very powerful assets that have a very direct and immediate influence on the battle. This class’ assets should be fun to use and should vary by map and team (as every other class does)
The commander should be a supporter on the battlefield, he should be able to take requests from players and use them while also being able to make decisions on his own. The commander shouldn’t be so influential that he’s overpowered on the battlefield; being able to annihilate the enemy team with one fail swoop, and he also shouldn’t be so influential in case he’s misused on the battlefield; for example, if nobody goes commander that round it won’t make the game unplayable for the other 32 players. This also means that if someone who is a smacktard goes commander he can be easily removed by his teammates so as not to hinder the gameplay of the other 31 people on the team.
The perfect commander, what we’re looking to discuss and form here, is a role on the battlefield that if used properly can give his team an upperhand in the battle. Through hard work and practiced use of his tools he can shift the battle in favor of his team and ultimately win them the round.
Currently this is possible in FH2 to SOME extent (this is why the commander has so much potential imo). Right now well timed and well placed artillery barrages (one of the commander’s most powerful assets) can demolish an enemy and help his team move onto and take a flag that was being stalemated for the whole round. To some extent supplies, dropped on vehicle locations, can be used to give those tanks and heavy assets the added ‘specialized’ rounds to give them the upperhand in a tank fight, or the ability to sit and repair/heal themselves without having to get out, meaning they can engage the enemy while regenerating their health (not very realistic but not the point).
One of the biggest complaints about the commander now is how boring it is to play. I’d like to see some discussion as to WHY exactly this is but I feel the biggest reasons are;
a) not enough to do, the commander only really has arty and supplies at his disposal right now (2 buttons w/ a lot of time in between use = not that much fun imo) The commander should always have something to do, or at least always have something fun to play with.
b) no ability to see his effects on the battle (also not being able to see the battle.) Imo the core of our reasoning for playing BF2 is the idea that we get to see these battles being played out while also seeing that we’re having an effect on them. Sitting in a stationary place and clicking buttons, hoping they do something is a big turn off for people imo.
At its heart I see the commander as a support role; and right now many of the support roles in FH2 don’t have a lot to do but they’re still A LOT of fun to play. People play as arty gunners where you sit in a seat and line up numbers, or as a recon plane where you fly around with nothing to shoot at. But these roles also have you actively DOING something and have you actively SEEING how you’re affecting the battle. In arty I have a ‘God’s eye view’ where I can see that my rounds are landing and killing people. In the recon plane I’m flying, flying is inherently a fun activity for most people, and you can see all the people you’re spotting on the ground with the ‘UAV radar,’ (not realistic but it’s a very useful tool from a gameplay standpoint).
These support roles are what I feel the Commander should be modeled after. Give him the ability to do MANY things, and give him the ability to see the impact of those things on the battlefield.
Imo the commander has 3 main assets; arty/supply/recon (and he should utilize all of these in conjunction with coordinating his team to get their full potential)
Right now in FH2 there are a lot of player controlled support roles: player controlled arty, recon planes, ammo trucks etc… I want to try and keep the idea of player controlled support roles in CONJUNCTION with commander support roles. Player controlled support roles are fun and loved by many and I don’t want to see them go. However, it might prove to be impossible to see them work with commander support roles and one or the other might ultimately have to be taken out, which is why I raised the question of if it’s worth it to keep the commander in.
Arty (This includes big arty tasks, softening up enemy positions with very indirect fire)
Variations have been suggested a million times, and many of them have some great ideas that could stand alone and make the commander position fun to play.
Commander assets air and arty suggestion:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=13080.msg174437#msg174437New Commander options suggestion:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16207.0I feel like the real question here is what the hell is the difference or significant impact of having 2 types of arty systems? Right now we have player controlled arty which is fun and LOVED by many people. It’s well designed so as to take some skill to use well. It also incorporates teamwork into FH on a scale I’ve never seen before. A good spotter coupled with a good gunner can ruin my day defending a flag. This is a great thing and is why I think player controlled arty should be kept in FH2 and not sacrificed for the commander. Right now the only advantage is that Commander arty is used to soften up an objective, which I think is great. Let loose a barrage on a flag and many of its defenses (AT guns, machine guns, people) are out of commission and disorganized for a minute or two, allowing your team to advance. But how do we define the role of commander arty and how is it different from player controlled arty?
I guess my one suggestion would be to put ONLY the big guns in the hands of the commander. 25 pders, leFH 18s, 105 Howitzers etc.. giving ONLY the mortars and mobile arty to the player controlled arty. You want a big barrage to soften up a target? Call on the big batteries, but they’re only available every few minutes or so as the commander arty is now. And if you want to get rid of that pesky camping tank or that one 6pder someone moved to the flank that’s eating up your PzerIIIs? call it out with binoculars and have the mortar crew put some accurate fire on its location instead of wasting a ‘one time’ barrage.
Supply (incorporates big supply tasks, reinforcing a whole squad or team. Leaving things like driving ammo trucks to tanks to be reserved for the player)
Supply asset is a tricky one imo. Right now supply doesn’t do much of anything in FH2. As an infantryman I’ve only once or twice had to go and find more clips for my rifle after using them all up. The only times I’ve EVER seeked out an ammo box (or wish I had one) is:
1) I need more special shells for my tank, or more HE ‘cause I’ve been spamming it into the enemy flag for 10 min and I’m fresh out
2) I just used up all of my PIATs/Zooks/satchels/AT weapons etc… and I need some more.
Overall, it’s not a very common thing to need supply drops every few min on an FH2 battlefield.
So how can this become an asset that is as important as or almost as important as arty on the battlefield?
I’m thinking in terms of bigger things. Maybe the commander can choose to give people reinforcements of the sort. Spawn crew served weapons (mortars, deployed guns etc..) or even go so far as to spawn certain vehicles in certain situations with limits. Can even go so far as to create limited spawn points.
My one idea would be making the command vehicle itself a spawn point. This supply idea can be built upon and I’ll elaborate on it more later.
Recon (i.e. something bigger than just spotting people with binos for the team)
Recon is imo already a very fun thing in FH. I remember flying the scout plane around on Lebiesy and seeing the impact it had on my team. I’m not sure if it was just an incompetent Brit team on the other side but I like to think it was the fact that my guys had a pretty much constant view of the enemy’s location on their map. They we’re never surprised to see 10 guys rushing in from their right because I uncovered those guys sneaking on their flank 2 minutes beforehand. In the end it was a resounding victory.
This example shows the power of the recon plane and how it can be a huge asset for the commander that can affect the battle in a significant way. I would propose giving the “UAV” ability back to the commander in the form of a recon plane (which has been suggested before) in general the recon plane would fly in a circle like the UAV over an area of the commanders choosing and have the ‘radar’ show enemy positions on the minimap for the team to see. This would be like the arty in that it could only be used every so often. One immediate problem that I heard was that apparently only ONE model can be used for the recon plane for both teams, meaning a team specific recon planes would be out and would break immersion. I guess the easiest work around to this would be to just make the ‘UAV’ not visible to people on the ground, but the commander still gets the ‘radar’ abilities.
This also raises the same question that the arty did in that we already have player controlled recon planes. How do we differentiate these recon planes from the commanders recon abilities? My suggestion would be to take away the recon plane from the player and just give it to the commander instead. That would mean that you as a player couldn’t just hop into a recon plane whenever you felt but instead would have to go as a commander to do so. This has the disadvantage of taking it away from people who like to recon for their team every few rounds whenever they feel like it. But I think it gives the advantage of giving players more incentive to play as the commander, which is lacking almost completely right now. Now even if players just want to go commander and recon they’re still helping the team out but can also do more with arty and supplies at their disposal as well.
Another idea would be to give the commander the ability to view the recon plane. As in, if the commander is in his seat he can click to view the ‘underneath’ view of the recon plane even if someone else is flying it. He can have the ability to spot his own arty from there and use it to direct troops better.
Or maybe, is there some possible work around where the commander could ‘call in’ a recon plane? Use his binos to spot the place he wants to recon and have something fly in off map that you could man. I’m thinking kind of like the bomber kit in FH1 where you’d call it in and the plane would fly a set path, you’d then man the plane and drop bombs manually. Iirc I heard it wasn’t exactly possible in BF2 tho.
This area of the commander assets can be expanded upon heavily.
In terms of making the commander a fun role to play in, aside from the assets, the commander should have the ability to move around. He should be able to be with his team only slightly behind the front lines and see his work take effect. You can see in this PR video how dbzao is at the forefront of the attack, watching as his team takes objectives and helps to build/ communicate with them.
Commanding in PR, dbzao video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIyeSSWL8pIThis aspect of being able to move around and be with the team alone makes the commander so much more fun to play. He has the choice to sit in the safety of his chair at the base but if he wants to venture out he can do so with the command trucks that are already in game. They work like they do now, the commander can command from inside his tent or inside the command truck and those are the only two places he has access to his map.
I also believe it could be a good idea to make the commanders truck a spawn point for the whole team. The only other spawn point aside from forward spawns at flags and SL spawns. This has the advantage of; if the commander isn’t using it at all or improperly it doesn’t affect gameplay. BUT if the commander uses it correctly and with some skill, it can become an enemy team’s nightmare, giving them another separate objective to take out. Essentially it’s like the spawnable Halftrack on Cobra (don’t know if it has been removed or not) but instead of having some smaktard drive it around (which has no real negative effect on gameplay currently) it will be a commander. (and again even if the commander is himself a smacktard it doesn’t effect gameplay and at least you have the ability to never let him drive it again by starting a mutiny against him.) This is under the assumption that the commander vehicle is locked to only the commander (possible? you could make it locked to a kit and have the commander kit only able to enter it, commander kit being only different from SL kit in terms of coding.)
The way I’m thinking of it’s ideal use now is on a map like El Alamein, the Brits are having a hard time capping the Ridge, anyone trying to move across the open desert is getting shelled by German tanks and no SL are smart enough or good enough to go and create a spawn point for their team at the base of the hill. So the commander steps in and decides this flag is the team’s number one priority and needs to be taken. He now, being the only one that can drive the command car, has to actively fight his way to a good spawn location where he can sit and defend his car as his team now has one new cohesive spawn point with which to attack this flag. It works for FH gameplay because it gives the team the OPTION of whether to spawn there or not, the commander isn’t useless by just giving his team a move marker and having no one follow it; he’s creating a new asset for his team that he deems useful and hoping his team will utilize that asset to their advantage. It’s a lot like a SL sitting in a building and hiding for his squad to rush in and overwhelm the flag, only it’s like a SL for the whole team which is what the commander should be (in a sense.) Not all maps can possibly have this commander spawn vehicle asset for the commander (inf maps) which is why I think he should also get different types of “supply” abilities as well, for those maps. I believe it’s possible to give commander certain things on certain maps; just like having mortars for arty on one map but large arty on another.
Imo the commander should be thought about on a map by map basis to better see what assets a team could use on those maps and how to balance them between both teams while keeping with historical accuracy.
I’d love to know the community’s feel about the commander in FH2. If you agree or disagree with me; if you think it’s stupid to try and fix the commander or not; if you think the commander is awesome as is and doesn’t need any changing. I’d also love to see some more suggestions. How should the commander’s assets work? What would make YOU want to play commander? I hope this thread can start a good discussion; maybe outline a plan to make the commander something as fun as mortars or riflemen in FH2. Or, after some discussion, realize that the commander is useless in FH2 and have the devs remove it completely so as not to confuse new players and keep the mod ‘polished.’
Other command suggestion:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=11866.0