Author Topic: Revolting Uniting  (Read 305089 times)

Offline Butcher

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4215 on: 02-10-2013, 01:10:56 »
But some Europeans can veer too far against new immigrants and I find that very worrying.  Just look at the recent banning of minarets in Switzerland.
So how exactly is that bad? That´s ACTUAL democracy for you. The people decided. In Germany they don´t dare to ask the population to decide on these things - probably because the results would be the same. "Everybody" was of course shocked and couldn´t understand that the Swiss don´t want their Alps to look like fucking Akraba.

Nothing against them living after their religion - in normal buildings - but I´m also sceptical towards palaces that mutilate the cityscape. What´s next, Pyramids in a Bavarian village?  ;D
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Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4216 on: 02-10-2013, 01:10:49 »
something curious from the Belgian media last week, and i guess it's bit related here:
Our governement decided to send back an Afghan immigrants, who had been living here for quite some time who spoke dutch prety well, who had a job, who had belgian friends etc. He was perfectly integrated, yet they send him back. Meanwhile we are getting all kinds of immigrants that are often family of long-term unemployed immigrants who often don't speak our language, to "reunite families". "could be good for the economy to get more immigrants", yet they are above the retirement age, or they don't speak our language and they don't want to follow lessons to do so, yet they get unemployment.
There is something wrong over here  ???
The secretary of state of Asylum says the common procedure was followed for that Afghan and that they can't change files because the media jumps on it. But i don't get why we keep getting immigrants, when we send those that do a geat job, back to a country where they will arrive as strangers or even deserters... Sure media shouldn't control everything, but i think those that work and do their best to integrate, deserve a spott in our society.
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4217 on: 02-10-2013, 03:10:26 »
But some Europeans can veer too far against new immigrants and I find that very worrying.  Just look at the recent banning of minarets in Switzerland.
So how exactly is that bad? That´s ACTUAL democracy for you. The people decided. In Germany they don´t dare to ask the population to decide on these things - probably because the results would be the same. "Everybody" was of course shocked and couldn´t understand that the Swiss don´t want their Alps to look like fucking Akraba.

Nothing against them living after their religion - in normal buildings - but I´m also sceptical towards palaces that mutilate the cityscape. What´s next, Pyramids in a Bavarian village?  ;D

The democracy itself elected Adolf Hitler, and you know what happens next.

We know that they are a product of their times, but why do you try not to preserve the Ostrogoth's hut or Viking's long house?

While I personally don't like minarets either - they crumble during earthquakes and block many things. There are a lot of new buildings that people might not like at first, but will become integrated into their culture long after. For example is the flashy Gothic architecture style during the dark age, which is shunned upon by most Western Europeans at first, but it is highly treasured now.

Or maybe look at this minaret in Xi'an, China:


Offline Tankbuster

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4218 on: 02-10-2013, 07:10:21 »
What exactly do forum members mean by "Asians" anyway. It has always confused me.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4219 on: 02-10-2013, 07:10:09 »
something curious from the Belgian media last week, and i guess it's bit related here:
Our governement decided to send back an Afghan immigrants, who had been living here for quite some time who spoke dutch prety well, who had a job, who had belgian friends etc. He was perfectly integrated, yet they send him back. Meanwhile we are getting all kinds of immigrants that are often family of long-term unemployed immigrants who often don't speak our language, to "reunite families". "could be good for the economy to get more immigrants", yet they are above the retirement age, or they don't speak our language and they don't want to follow lessons to do so, yet they get unemployment.
There is something wrong over here  ???
The secretary of state of Asylum says the common procedure was followed for that Afghan and that they can't change files because the media jumps on it. But i don't get why we keep getting immigrants, when we send those that do a geat job, back to a country where they will arrive as strangers or even deserters... Sure media shouldn't control everything, but i think those that work and do their best to integrate, deserve a spott in our society.

Interesting point, in which I can sympathize with. It's behavior like this by our governments which discourage the legal immigration process and assimilation. This of course, is all assuming that the immigrant in question had the best interest of the state in mind and there isn't evidence which contradicts this assumption that has not been released (or otherwise known by the media) stating reasonable suspicion and cause for exportation.

Also, multiculturalism is a failure, even within the United States. I would include supporting evidence, but it is current 2:00 AM where I reside and I've just finished 7 hours of solid school work - brain no longer functions as it should.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2013, 07:10:48 by Oddball »

Offline Kubador

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4220 on: 02-10-2013, 08:10:10 »
Funnily enough, the illegal immigrants are what saves US economy right now. You'd be better off if some of the legal ones became illegal - depending on some circumstances of course.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4221 on: 02-10-2013, 09:10:22 »
Funnily enough, the illegal immigrants are what saves US economy right now. You'd be better off if some of the legal ones became illegal - depending on some circumstances of course.

I'm curious... Please elaborate? Yeah - I'm never going to get any sleep tonight.

Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4222 on: 02-10-2013, 13:10:39 »
Yeah, there is an "extra reason", he was allowed hee because he had a legal problem with Iran and he was accepted as refugee for that reason, now the secretary of state for asylum says she doesn't think Iran is that much of a threat anymore so his stay is no longer valid in her opinion. Even if she's right about, i still don't get why he gets removed from our soil. If he integrates good and works more that the average Belgian, then why wouldn't he be welcome? If he is here in our society and does his best to make it a better place for everyone, then why should we send him back? Other immigrants get caught dozens of times for theft or homerobberies, yet they don't get send back, and even only go to prison after they comitted a crime for the **th time. There is really no sense to it.
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Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4223 on: 02-10-2013, 14:10:22 »
Funnily enough, the illegal immigrants are what saves US economy right now. You'd be better off if some of the legal ones became illegal - depending on some circumstances of course.

I'm curious... Please elaborate? Yeah - I'm never going to get any sleep tonight.
The Economist argues that one of the reasons for the US economic crash and the very slow recovery is that America's population has simply reached its economic peak - what is needed is a new influx of labour to revitalize the economy.  US immigration policy is terrible economics.

Offline Kubador

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4224 on: 02-10-2013, 16:10:08 »
Funnily enough, the illegal immigrants are what saves US economy right now. You'd be better off if some of the legal ones became illegal - depending on some circumstances of course.

I'm curious... Please elaborate? Yeah - I'm never going to get any sleep tonight.

Illegal immigrants can't use any government help like welfare or medicare so they have to join the workforce (assuming they won't choose criminal way of life). Mostly they can work below minimum wage so they fill up unwanted or too costly (when tax applied) jobs. Thus more products and services are added to the economic pool at lower cost so everybody on the market benefits. If, however, they would be taken under government rules, regulations and welfare, in most cases their skills would not be sufficient to get a job with above the minimum wage and they'd be forced to go on welfare which is a very dark pit.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4225 on: 02-10-2013, 16:10:34 »
Funnily enough, the illegal immigrants are what saves US economy right now. You'd be better off if some of the legal ones became illegal - depending on some circumstances of course.

I'm curious... Please elaborate? Yeah - I'm never going to get any sleep tonight.
The Economist argues that one of the reasons for the US economic crash and the very slow recovery is that America's population has simply reached its economic peak - what is needed is a new influx of labour to revitalize the economy.  US immigration policy is terrible economics.

Reached its peak for sales in the U.S. market, perhaps. One of the main problem with the US is that it is in a trade deficit. The United States is a consumer market. We either need to expand our global market or open new markets within the US, which would require more manufacturing and producing being done in the United States.

It is a misconception that illegal immigrants do not receive any government aid, http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/09/16/undocumented-la-county-parents-projected-to-receive-650m-in-welfare-benefits/, for example. Even if, hypothetically, they did not receive medicare outright, if they were to go to a hospital, they could not be refused medical services. Guess who is paying for that. Not to mention, the jobs which many of these illegal immigrants fill are not going to make or break the economy or the business. They are a slight booster for the sake of saying, "oh look, unemployment is down for this quarter." While these immigrants may pay sales tax, they do not pay income tax, and it is common for good portions of their earnings to be sent back to their native country to support their struggling family, outside the US economy.

Census Bureau data reveals that most U.S. families headed by illegal immigrants use taxpayer-funded welfare programs on behalf of their American-born anchor babies.Even before the recession, immigrant households with children used welfare programs at consistently higher rates than natives, according to the extensive census data collected and analyzed by a nonpartisan Washington D.C. group dedicated to researching legal and illegal immigration in the U.S. (http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011)

This does not take into account the number of illegal immigrants which are granted amnesty as a political stunt. Not only does this hurt the economy, it hurts society a whole, now that these people have to make no effort or attempt to assimilate what-so-ever.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2013, 16:10:32 by Oddball »

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4226 on: 02-10-2013, 17:10:50 »
What is it with you people and assimilating? Assimilating into what? American culture I guess, but what culture would that be? White Middle Class Culture? Urbane intellectual culture? My guess is most Mexican immigrants lack the money and education for that. Maybe black inner city culture. Or they become Mormons.
Culture is not some unchangeable, monolithic entity with clearly defined borders. You'd think especially Americans would have noticed this by now. You're clinging to some simplistic world view that in the end can only define community by exclusion.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4227 on: 02-10-2013, 17:10:39 »
What is it with you people and assimilating? Assimilating into what? American culture I guess, but what culture would that be? White Middle Class Culture? Urbane intellectual culture? My guess is most Mexican immigrants lack the money and education for that. Maybe black inner city culture. Or they become Mormons.
Culture is not some unchangeable, monolithic entity with clearly defined borders. You'd think especially Americans would have noticed this by now. You're clinging to some simplistic world view that in the end can only define community by exclusion.

American culture, yes, but it's more than that. It's more of "having the same common goals" which I guess one could say would be the best interest of the State. To respect our laws and principles chiefly but not solely defined via the Constitution and other vital documents associated with US history. It is their responsibility to be more accommodating to the language and societal norms. It's the same type of stuff that annoys you when American tourists visit your country... except they don't plan to stay there - fortunately for everyone.
« Last Edit: 02-10-2013, 17:10:16 by Oddball »

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4228 on: 02-10-2013, 17:10:29 »
Can't say I've ever been annoyed by American tourists, but then again I don't work the tourism business.
And again, you use these words like norms and values as if you assume that there is some objective "American" way of life, set in stone for all ages and situations, to be never changed or questioned. And that is just a fantasy, that is not how cultures work. Civilisations and societies are in a constant state of flux, they don't exist in a vacuum, they influence each other and some elements are discarded if they outlive their usefulness.
Some posters earlier cited the Austro-Hungarian Empire as an example of failed multi-culturalism. In my view that is complete bollocks. That empire didn't fail because of its many cultures (at least not primarily), but because of a lack of change and adaptation. The Austrian ruling classes had one vision of their Austria, that of a monarchy dominated by German-Austrians, ruling over a multitude of people. When nationalism developed, that vision was no longer viable and so it was replaced by a different Austria. Of course it took two World Wars and some rolling heads to get there, which leaves you wondering if the same could not have been achieved with a bit more self awareness.

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: Revolting Uniting
« Reply #4229 on: 02-10-2013, 17:10:39 »
What is it with you people and assimilating? Assimilating into what? American culture I guess, but what culture would that be? White Middle Class Culture? Urbane intellectual culture? My guess is most Mexican immigrants lack the money and education for that. Maybe black inner city culture. Or they become Mormons.
Culture is not some unchangeable, monolithic entity with clearly defined borders. You'd think especially Americans would have noticed this by now. You're clinging to some simplistic world view that in the end can only define community by exclusion.

American culture, yes, but it's more than that. It's more of "having the same common goals" which I guess one could say would be the best interest of the State. To respect our laws and principles chiefly but not solely defined via the Constitution and other vital documents associated with US history. It is their responsibility to be more accommodating to the language and societal norms. It's the same type of stuff that annoys you when American tourists visit your country... except they don't plan to stay there - fortunately for everyone.
People said the same thing in the early 1900's when Italians and Eastern Europeans were arriving in droves.  Within generations they had assimilated completely.  i think you lean to closely to an ethnocultural idea of what it means to be an American- being American should not just mean being an English-speaking Wasp.

Immigrants are assimilating nowadays anyway, fears of reconquista are entirely unfounded.  For example, only 12.6% of Hispanic immigrants solely speak Spanish.  Amongst Chinese immigrants, the percentage is similar, but I rarely hear anyone complaining that Chinese people are unwilling to assimilate.  The Hispanic population is just larger and therefore Spanish the more visible (audible?) language.  They will assimilate in generations, and in studies Hispanic residents identify as just as patriotic as Anglo Americans.

Sources: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/DAED_a_00224
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870.2010.535549