Author Topic: Even fighters parameters  (Read 1680 times)

Offline Kubador

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #15 on: 26-06-2014, 12:06:51 »
I played as an axis pilot not so long ago on cobra - surprisingly there was only one other player waiting for FW. From my experience there is no problem shooting down a mustang or a thunderbolt. Goes down in flames pretty fast if you get on his six. The problem is in numbers and short respawn time in allied airforce which makes it look like destroying more than one plane still doesn't make a dent in their offensive capabilities.

I managed to shoot down 3 planes before being killed myself. It's really hard to shake sm1 down from your six if he knows what he's doing, which is the desired outcome - experience and skill trump plane capabilities.

Offline Mudzin

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #16 on: 26-06-2014, 12:06:20 »
Yeah, sth like in F1 - 99% depends on plane and 1% on pilot skill...  ;D

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #17 on: 26-06-2014, 12:06:39 »
In real historical setting, the Axis should be at great disadvantage in Op. Cobra.

I checked in last play that the turning radius in FW is somewhat superior to P-51.

Nice joke... How did you check that? By counting seconds in your head?  ::)

It's easy, you don't need Asian level math.

Just get some bots to tail you, shake him for a few times to make sure he is following you, then at speed of 560 (ASI provided inside the cockpit), do a perfect elevator turn at 90 degrees bank (BF2 unrealism made this possible) and keep it going. As FW-190A8, watch until the Mustang disappeared (I played with keyboard, since playing BF/ARMA games with joystick/yoke is stupid). As P-51D-20NA, watch until you get fired upon and explode, I did a few low/high yo-yo to dodge their gunsights.

Now to be fair, the P-51 is the clean config one (not the one carrying bomb), and the FW-190s always carry that external tanks, but I don't think the load affects its performance since it is not simulated in FH2.

Offline Mudzin

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #18 on: 26-06-2014, 13:06:38 »
In real historical setting, the Axis should be at great disadvantage in Op. Cobra.

I checked in last play that the turning radius in FW is somewhat superior to P-51.

Nice joke... How did you check that? By counting seconds in your head?  ::)

It's easy, you don't need Asian level math.

Just get some bots to tail you, shake him for a few times to make sure he is following you, then at speed of 560 (ASI provided inside the cockpit), do a perfect elevator turn at 90 degrees bank (BF2 unrealism made this possible) and keep it going. As FW-190A8, watch until the Mustang disappeared (I played with keyboard, since playing BF/ARMA games with joystick/yoke is stupid). As P-51D-20NA, watch until you get fired upon and explode, I did a few low/high yo-yo to dodge their gunsights.

Now to be fair, the P-51 is the clean config one (not the one carrying bomb), and the FW-190s always carry that external tanks, but I don't think the load affects its performance since it is not simulated in FH2.

So it must have been ultra noob that you turned faster than him using keyboard...

Offline Kubador

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #19 on: 26-06-2014, 15:06:46 »
Yes, a noob bot. Read his post carefully next time.

Offline Harmonikater

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #20 on: 26-06-2014, 16:06:09 »
Flying against bots to test plane agility. Made me laugh.
Just look at positions of PhyTailFlap of both planes in the respective _wings.inc file. Rotation Values in _physics.con are the same. So distance from pivot to PhyTailFlap, in combination with slightly different values for mass/drag might have affects here.
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #21 on: 26-06-2014, 17:06:27 »
Have no idea on how these values work.

(plane)_wings.inc files

P-51D:
Quote
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate P51d_Physics_PhyTailFlap
ObjectTemplate.setPosition 0/0/-5
FW-190
Quote
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate fw190Physics_PhyTailFlap
ObjectTemplate.setPosition 0/0.3/-5.44

Is it point of reference? Does it mean, FW190's tail is slightly upwards, and further back from its center of pivot? That means, it has more turning potent than the P-51D in game. I don't think I feel any difference with or without bombs.

Offline Harmonikater

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #22 on: 26-06-2014, 18:06:33 »
If you don't understand the values, play around with them and see what effects those changes have ingame. There's a lot of quirks in the bf2 engine, (coordinates being formatted (x,z,y) for example...)

If you put the Tailflap closer to the pivot (let's say 0/0/-4) among other effects you'll see that you are able to make tighter turns.

As for bombs, I don't think there's anything in the bf2engine that would allow you to change values once you drop the bombs. And right now I can't think of any way to do it with python either.
And for now all three variants (normal/bombs/rockets) use the same values, so yeah there is no difference between with or without bombs.
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Offline gavrant

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #23 on: 26-06-2014, 18:06:16 »
...(coordinates being formatted (x,z,y) for example...) ...
No, it's always (x,y,z), at least for children and map objects positions

Offline gavrant

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #24 on: 26-06-2014, 18:06:02 »
Just get some bots to tail you...
As I understand, singleplayer bots? Testing vehicle behavior on bots is rather inaccurate. There is an additional layer of physics setup for AI, so vehicles may behave differently in the hands of AI and in the hands of a human player.

Offline Harmonikater

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #25 on: 26-06-2014, 18:06:26 »
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me there, otherwise that would be strange coming from a dev.
Normally the x-y plane is the floor and z is the elevation...  And (x,y,z) is the standard notation for that.
In BF2 the middle coordinate is used for elevation, unlike max for example. That's what I meant to say.

Otherwise this :
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate fw190Physics_PhyTailFlap
ObjectTemplate.setPosition 0/0.3/-5.44
would mean that the TailFlap is 5 meters below the pivot...

Also would mean that all objects I've made so far and placed on maps somehow amazingly corrected the coordinates themselves.
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Offline gavrant

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #26 on: 26-06-2014, 18:06:39 »
Harmonikater, you're right if we would talk about "school" geometry (which I almost forgot by now). But in computer graphics Y usually is the "altitude" (that is, the vertical axis), and Z is the "depth" (that is, the horizontal axis running away from the viewer, so to say).
See, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-buffering
and pictures from here:
http://nccastaff.bmth.ac.uk/hncharif/MathsCGs/Transformations.pdf
http://www.computer-graphics.se/TSBK07-files/pdf13/7b.pdf

So this is not a quirk in the BF2 engine.

Offline Harmonikater

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #27 on: 26-06-2014, 19:06:50 »
Interesting material, did not know that. But still anyone not working with computer graphics, the common cartesian system in e.g. engineering or physics is still z for elevation. Plus all 3d programs I use have the z-axis for elevation. So it might not be a quirk of just the bf2 engine, but it is still a quirk if you're not a computer graphics expert, having to change the coordinates around when changing between your max scene and the game files.
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Offline Paasky

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Re: Even fighters parameters
« Reply #28 on: 27-06-2014, 06:06:12 »
I wouldn't say expert, just knowledgeable of how computers work: they rarely do like you'd assume they do, computers are really really stupid machines.

Not that it really matters which letter is used anyway, computers just draw everything looking from the "front" (like rendering stuff you see while running around), while humans tend to view stuff from the "top" (like when making maps/models). Not complicated at all ;D
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