Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Feedback => General => Topic started by: Zoologic on 26-08-2012, 13:08:24

Title: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 26-08-2012, 13:08:24
I've tried both North Africa and Western Europe theatre, the tank combat seems to change a lot. Continuing from the "ineffectiveness of KwK40 cannon" thread. I should continue with this finding of mine, where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun, but sacrifice some degree of realism.

Everybody has been bitching about how vulnerable a Tiger or Panther is, and how overpowered M4A3 Sherman is. But that's Western Europe, axis fanboys perspective. Also we get some facts from them that powerful allied cannons seems to lose its charm too.

Try North Africa. My Matilda mk.2 and Valentine tanks aren't that powerful anymore. Every contact between me, the bots and other players can result in a loss to the Matilda mk.2. Even Panzer III Je can easily kill it now with less than 5 shots from point blank distance. This was not the case before. When playing as DAK, I have to employ various rambo tactics to put geballte ladungs on top of its engine deck or instantly lay a tellermine before it crosses the path.

Is this intended or simply a bug? Because on my side, I confirm this finding, as well as overpowered Cromwell IV. (Not specifically KWK40, but KWK38 as well) and nerfed 17 pdr. That Matilda is vulnerable from Panzer 3's 50 mm cannon.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 26-08-2012, 15:08:07
I'm pretty sure the 5cm gun could penetrate them irl from close range.
@The rest: Noone is impressed you playing times or stats.
These are the facts: The devs wanted tank fights to last longer.
Tank gun damage was decreased and the change was beta tested
It did indeed work, and now tank fights last longer.
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 26-08-2012, 15:08:53
@ couple of members who got their posts deleted:

You arent adding anything to the topic. You are allowed to partake in the conversation but keep your penis swinging elsewhere. If you do not have solid feedback regarding the subject itself (I dont see how posting a massive list of gaming hours of certain individuals relates to the subject) then dont post at all.

Constructive criticism has always been welcome and still is. But if you fail to keep it civil and manage to turn it into another cockswinging competition of who knows better, then I have to stop it.

Oh btw, I wont argue with you here and its pointless for you to start raising your voice about censorship or raindows in the sky because if its off-topic, then it's off-topic. If you got a problem, you can always PM me.

Now, if you boys dont mind, start being civil and dont turn it into a personal shitfest.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 26-08-2012, 15:08:18
(http://s1.directupload.net/images/120826/ehqqpr3e.jpg)

Penetrated a Churchill Mark. III with a Panzer III L frontally using Pzgr40. Before that I hit it 2 times from above into the engine (I was on the hill). Still I don´t think the Churchills´ front should be penetrated by a 50mm gun, regardless of which ammunition you are using on your Panzer III. You can see where I hit it.

I think that´s the old issue with special ammunition.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ciupita on 26-08-2012, 16:08:27
at 100m range
5 cm L.42 KwK 38            A.P. (Pz.Gr. 39)   69 mm
                                        A.P.C.R. (Pz.Gr. 40)   115 mm
5 cm L.60 PaK 38 & KwK 39    A.P. (Pz.Gr. 39)   99 mm
                                        A.P.C.R. (Pz.Gr. 40)   141 mm

So yeah, it will punch through with pzgr40. Looks like you shot it pretty close anyway.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: »KeFeng on 26-08-2012, 17:08:17
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.
Since when is having a different opinion "bitching"? Because you are in your opinion?

Calling some Forum Members "Bitches", cause they share their Experiences. Seriously, guys. Who has made him a Moderator?!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 26-08-2012, 17:08:49
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.
Since when is having a different opinion "bitching"? Because you are in your opinion?

Calling some Forum Members "Bitches", cause they share their Experiences. Seriously, guys. Who has made him a Moderator?!

Repeating the same anectdotal observations ad nauseam is not giving feedback or "sharing experience" (doesn't "sharing" imply some actual worth btw?), it's bitching, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 26-08-2012, 17:08:38
(http://horobox.reager.org/u/Orkel_1334474131.png)

This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: »KeFeng on 26-08-2012, 18:08:01
Please take your personal issues with Ts4EVER or whoever to PM, this is not the place to argue about such. Thanks
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 26-08-2012, 18:08:43
Yes, the PzGr 40 should have punched through it. That's confirmed.

When giving opinion, please do it politely, because in this hall, sits people with decent amount of knowledge. The devs got Lightning, Taranov, Mudra, and other knowledgeable guys who knows their stuff well and perhaps godknows how many bolts are needed to attach Sherman Easy Eight's applique armour. Plus I bet, little of you guys know about the game mechanics. Me neither.

I want a change, yes... you too, and let's do it in good manners.

My intention here was to confirm whether the potentially unrealistic consequences to the changes are indeed intentional, not to challenge their facts. It is clear from other threads that we wanted to make a penetration as a kill. But then, the devs wanted to make the tankfight last longer. We should be giving valuable feedbacks, not telling them "this is right, that is wrong" straight on the face.

My proposal is to count non penetration as damage to the health bar (which is reduced). I too enjoy the tanking gameplay now, but felt wrong that the big cats (Panther and Tiger) loses its usefulness, even when driven by bots, pitted against other bots. Bot's behavior is to fire while charging closer until they made a collision, then fire their cannons again until someone is destroyed. So this should be clear: Tiger should win most of the engagements with the exception of against Firefly, Achilles, Jackson, etc. But it didn't, and encounters has been random at most. What I can confirm is the powerfulness of Cromwell IV. Tried to teamkill it with 17 pdr while at base (point blank), it survived a shot to the front, but died from a shot to other sides.

Angle mod to my understanding is just increasing the armour value of some tanks which have its armour layout sloped. Is this correct? So the 38 mm value of that Chuchill sloped armour in TheTA's post is increased respectively in-game to simulate the slope effect, e.g. sloped at 30 degrees mean that we have to divide it by cos 60, which resulted in 76 mm thickness when being hit straight. Or there exist other modifications that I don't know? E.g. like there is additional calculation of how the shell impact the armour layer? For example, a near 1 degree impact will greatly reduce the penetration rate.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 26-08-2012, 19:08:36
If you consider that the PzGr 40 can penetrate a Churchill from the front, then why isn't it possible to kill a Grant from 5 metre point blank ( around 40 mm plane side armor)? I understand the point of balancing things and tank fights lasting longer, but it seems kinda random how the different tanks behave to each other. The 75 ABCBC from Sherman and Cromwell deals a good amount of damage to the side of the KT. You don't even need the Firefly on Goodwood.

With those things in mind, please can someone explain me, why it isn't possible to kill a Panther with the Firefly from the front, also when you hit the shot trap from 30 metre. I talked a littlebit with Unique about this problem and he can confirm it. It was the Panther on Totalize so the Ausf. A.

@Ts4ever: what I still don't get, why you bring up realistic penetration values, when you insist on the fact, that this tanking system is scaled down to the shorter combat ranges in FH2? The scaling behaves very assymetrical on axis and allied side for the different tanks.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ciupita on 26-08-2012, 19:08:32
Put up videos to proof you sayings. I can say I killed a king tiger with vickers tank and argue about it all the day.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: [F|H]Taz18 on 26-08-2012, 22:08:53
Angle mod to my understanding is just increasing the armour value of some tanks which have its armour layout sloped. Is this correct? So the 38 mm value of that Chuchill sloped armour in TheTA's post is increased respectively in-game to simulate the slope effect, e.g. sloped at 30 degrees mean that we have to divide it by cos 60, which resulted in 76 mm thickness when being hit straight. Or there exist other modifications that I don't know? E.g. like there is additional calculation of how the shell impact the armour layer? For example, a near 1 degree impact will greatly reduce the penetration rate.

From the News archive: (http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/news.php?id_news=375)
Quote
When hitting highly angled surfaces from 60 - 90 degrees, the damage dealt will drop accordingly down to zero.

It isn't that tank shells don't penetrate, the damage is adjusted to 0 in all cases.

There is the base damage values which are how much damage a specific shell (ex. 50mmL42-AP-Projectile) does to a specific armour material (ex. 38mm_armor).
There is the Distance Modifier which reduces the base damage values.
There is the Angled Damage Modifier which further reduces the base damage values.


I could be missing a modifier in there that is the jist of it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: psykfallet on 27-08-2012, 11:08:00


This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
Is that how it is ingame? Because then you have a pretty big area of weak 50mm armor right in the front
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 27-08-2012, 17:08:47


This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
Is that how it is ingame? Because then you have a pretty big area of weak 50mm armor right in the front
Any MG should be a weakspot. Any driver slot should be a weakspot.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: psykfallet on 27-08-2012, 17:08:03
should maybe, but is it from fh's material map or whatever its called?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 27-08-2012, 18:08:21
No, that is a WoT armour map iirc.

Our Churchill III has this:
(http://i.imgur.com/PMoJT.png)

FH2's collisionmeshes typically are much less complex.  E.g., I spent the whole of 2.1->2.2 thinking the Grant had weak side hatches, when really the whole side was the same.

Also, since people complain about it so much, here is the Cromwell:
(http://i.imgur.com/kg0tu.png)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 27-08-2012, 19:08:45
EU. Yes it is from WOT. But it is made with the armour thicknesses of the actuall Churchill tank. Wich is accurate exept for the Frontall turret armour.

(http://i.imgur.com/PMoJT.png)

Personally, i would make the lower hull plate 100mm. The mantlet around the coaxial MG was also thicker then the rest of the armour, so i would give it 100mm aswel. The sides and top are fine. The gun MANTLET should also be 100mm. Not talking about the frontall Turret armour, its the small areas around the gun.

This is just my 5 cents.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: psykfallet on 27-08-2012, 23:08:52
hmm so it seems that the coax and hatch are the thickest parts?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 28-08-2012, 08:08:39
What does "at 90" means? Does it means that it is affected by angle mod?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 28-08-2012, 11:08:14
Just the angle from horizontal.  But those are only the names for the material groups, I hadn't unpacked the material manager files that would show the actual materials used for each group.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 28-08-2012, 12:08:38
Yeah, it means 32mm at 90 degree. What is with the green part above the the yellowish side armor section? I know it is the upper side armor but it looks kinda strange, when I think about it as a collission mesh where factors like angle mod play a role. If you hit this protuding green box in a bad angle from point blank it is no miracle that a shot can bounce off.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 28-08-2012, 14:08:56
Yesterday my Tiger was destroyed by 2 shots of normal Shermans and the angle was less than 30...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-08-2012, 15:08:21
Yeah, it means 32mm at 90 degree. What is with the green part above the the yellowish side armor section? I know it is the upper side armor but it looks kinda strange, when I think about it as a collission mesh where factors like angle mod play a role. If you hit this protuding green box in a bad angle from point blank it is no miracle that a shot can bounce off.

Yeah that might actually be it, combined with the fast speed of the tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 28-08-2012, 15:08:17
Is this little box only on the left side of the tank? Because judging from the screen it looks like this.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 28-08-2012, 16:08:39
There is another in a different place on the right hand side.  I half wonder if those rivets on the turret cause problems too.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kelmola on 28-08-2012, 16:08:14
Noticed to my surprise that Churchill IV now gets one-shotted from the side by Panzerschreck. Was this always so?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 28-08-2012, 17:08:44
Noticed to my surprise that Churchill IV now gets one-shotted from the side by Panzerschreck. Was this always so?
no   omfg you are right................

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 28-08-2012, 18:08:50
So the results for Schreck versus Churchill are realistic. Might I propose to drive in a Sherman if you want to survife Schreck hits? ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 28-08-2012, 19:08:37
There is another in a different place on the right hand side.  I half wonder if those rivets on the turret cause problems too.

If you consider how "sloped" those rivets are, then the chance is quiet good, that the dealt damage gets reduced or a shot simply bounces off.

@Shreck: If a Shreck really 1S1K a Churchill IV and struggles with a standard Sherman, then we have a problem somewhere or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 29-08-2012, 00:08:28
So the results for Schreck versus Churchill are realistic. Might I propose to drive in a Sherman if you want to survife Schreck hits? ;D
BS since the churchill was the safest tank to be in WW2 when it got hit!

SHERMAN BIAS!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 29-08-2012, 06:08:29
From Taz's post:

Quote
There is the base damage values which are how much damage a specific shell (ex. 50mmL42-AP-Projectile) does to a specific armour material (ex. 38mm_armor).

So that Churchill's side armour is really Panzerschreck's favourite meal, they just can't chew Sherman's specific side armour.

That's how I understand it, since all shell damages are specific to each specific armour material, which as EU's screenshot showed us, could be unique for all tanks and each of its parts. So for example, a 76 mm shell may do a lot of damage to Panther's glacis plate, but it won't feel the same to Tiger's front hull, since the value is left out from modification. And the shell won't bounce, it's just the damage that is reduced.

Regarding Cromwell IV:

Even at point blank, the rivets all over that turret should be made penetrable too. Since you can pretty well punch through Panther's sloped front hull with 17 pdr from a distance.

It might not be the angle or distance modifier, it could be the specific damage value.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 29-08-2012, 19:08:01
So the results for Schreck versus Churchill are realistic. Might I propose to drive in a Sherman if you want to survife Schreck hits? ;D
BS since the churchill was the safest tank to be in WW2 when it got hit!

SHERMAN BIAS!

Why BS? Some members of the crew might surfive, but with more than 200mm penetration a Schreck will knock the Churchill out, still leaving it unoperational. Crew survivability doesn´t help the armor being penetrated and the VEHICLE being left unoperational/ destroyed, which is portrayed by a kill in FH2.

Before we start the old flaming discussion that killed my old thread: I think there should be some consistency. If a Churchill gets finished with 1 Schreck in the game there is no reason at all for Shermans to be able to stand a Schreck hit. As long as the Panther stands a sidehit I´m fine with the Churchill standing a Schreck hit for the sake that both are heavy/heavier tanks.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 29-08-2012, 20:08:51
Actually a panther tank should be finnished by a side hit. And i gave perfect valid reasons for it.
-Almost all of the ammo is stored in the side armour
-critical fuel lines

The churchill had the best crew survivabilty ratio because the ammo, fuel lines and others where properly stored away. Also the complicated suspension system was in front of the side armour. Wich also helped things.

Also plenty of space in a churchill....well plenty...plenty for a tank that is
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 29-08-2012, 20:08:17
Actually a panther tank should be finnished by a side hit. And i gave perfect valid reasons for it.
-Almost all of the ammo is stored in the side armour
-critical fuel lines

Wow, so what idiot designed this tank??!!  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: [F|H]Taz18 on 29-08-2012, 20:08:38
In regards to the Sherman, I noticed while going through the files that the NA M4A1 version has less hitpoints (750) than the Western Europe M4A1 (1000) which may explain some of the inconsistency some people seem to experience.

Also the collisions on the early Western Europe one appear to have small plates of armour on the sides (2 on the right, 1 on the left) which is the same thickness as the frontal armour! Or at least, that is how it looks.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 29-08-2012, 20:08:04
Actually a panther tank should be finnished by a side hit. And i gave perfect valid reasons for it.
-Almost all of the ammo is stored in the side armour
-critical fuel lines

Wow, so what idiot designed this tank??!!  ::)
Same as the kingtiger

(http://snyderstreasures.com/images/paper/posters/PosterPantherTank.jpg)


(http://www.hobbybokhandeln.net/wp-content/uploads//2009/06/kungstiger70_1.jpg)


Sherman tanks also did this. But M4a3 models moved them more to the hull floor and they also added wet ammo racks wich greatly increased survivability.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 29-08-2012, 21:08:11
... and Germans had guns with better penetration power (talking about the most common guns). And some Panthers had sideskirts to protect against Bazookas. Are you seriously telling me that a Churchill wouldn´t get knocked out by a sidehit from 500 metres by 75mm (you know, german guns with higher penetration than the allied 75mms) etc.? That´s the exact same thing you are complaining about with Panthers.

I´m not proposing to oneshot every Churchill ...that takes more hits because it is a heavy tank. But then the 1s1k Panther makes a strange impression - it´s also a heavier tank.

Realistic would be: Make both tanks 1s1k from the side. Not giving one side unrealistic advantages the other side doesn´t get.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Slayer on 29-08-2012, 22:08:23
I´m not proposing to oneshot every Churchill ...that takes more hits because it is a heavy tank. But then the 1s1k Panther makes a strange impression - it´s also a heavier tank.
Hmm, interesting. I understood that many see the Panther as a heavy medium tank. So a medium tank, but a heavy variant of a medium tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 29-08-2012, 22:08:29
Let´s put it this way: The Panther weights 1 ton less than the IS-2... the german desigantion as a medium tank does not change the fact that it was a "heavier" tank. I wrote "heavier" and not "heavy" for a reason. If you don´t consider it heavy, you should think about the weight difference of the Panther to the common medium tanks (Panther: 45t, Panzer IV: 25t, Sherman: 31t, T-34: 31t). The weight is defiantely closer to the JS-2 (46t).

I know weight alone of course doesn´t necessarily make the armour thicker on the side, but it´s a hint that you can´t simply describe it as a medium tank. And my point still stands that the higher penetration values of the german 75mms "compensate" for the thicker side armour of the Churchill. Both tanks: Churchill and Panther could be knocked out this way.

On the other side letting Panthers surfive sideshots while Churchills get 1 shot by Panzerschecks is also awkward imo.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 29-08-2012, 22:08:34
... and Germans had guns with better penetration power (talking about the most common guns). And some Panthers had sideskirts to protect against Bazookas. Are you seriously telling me that a Churchill wouldn´t get knocked out by a sidehit from 500 metres by 75mm (you know, german guns with higher penetration than the allied 75mms) etc.? That´s the exact same thing you are complaining about with Panthers.

I´m not proposing to oneshot every Churchill ...that takes more hits because it is a heavy tank. But then the 1s1k Panther makes a strange impression - it´s also a heavier tank.

Realistic would be: Make both tanks 1s1k from the side. Not giving one side unrealistic advantages the other side doesn´t get.
...i wassent referring to the 75mm vs churchill!

FOCUS
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 30-08-2012, 19:08:50
Some of you were demanding a proof to show some of the mentioned problems with the Sherman armor, so I decided to create a little test map with all different kind of allied and axis armored vehicles/tanks and to capture some footage. They result was not relly surprising for me since it shows alot of things that you will notice while playing the game. The most important problems are caused by the movemnt of the target or the shooting tank itself. But that's nothing new. It results in exagerated damage loss of the round you fire at the target even if the object isn't moving fast. But I noticed also some other problems:

1. The Sherman with the 76 mm gun needs two shots over long range at the StuG 40 (30 mm side armor), the Panzer IV and StuG IV (30 mm side armor) get killed in one shot by the same gun.

2. The gun of the PIV and the StuG 40/StuG IV, Marder are coded two weak compared to the armor of the Sherman armor or the sherman armor is coded too strong - devs could look into it a bit more detailed I guess. The damage drop over range is too strong and when the angle gets a bit strange the shot bouncess off or doesn't deal enough damage.

3. Sherman Firefly can kill all Panthers (Ausf. G, A Late and A) from the front with a shot into the shot trap. But it is a guessing game. Sometimes it bouncess off, sometimes you need two shots and sometimes it melts through like a hot knife through butter.

4. The deviation of the shells might cause the most of these problems - and it is random! Infact it is not predictable where you shot will land on midrange. And this occurs also with the strongest guns (like the KwK 42 L/70). Some shots also seem to fade into nowhere or there is something like a miscalculation.




So finaly some footage (for more info read the description):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kTGKjkz-yY

I hope this helps to bring some clarification about the complains. I may make some other test aswell ;)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 30-08-2012, 20:08:41
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 30-08-2012, 22:08:27
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?
Kwiot, the panthers frontal turret armour is 100mm thick. The 17PDR punches trough 130mm of armour at 500 meters without any problem. Yet you demand that a sherman tank with 55mm of armour, sloped back giving 90mm protection, gets one shotted by a KWK 40 wich penetrates 99mm of armour at 500 meters?

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 30-08-2012, 23:08:28
We "demand" that (1 shotting Sherman) because nobody demands the Panthers turret to stand 17 pounder hits. The Sherman is much more common than the Panther on any map and the issue is much bigger.

And here we go back again to the same thing my last thread was about.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 30-08-2012, 23:08:10
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?

As I wrote. You are still able to 1S1K the Panther from the front But it is random also while aiming always on the same spot due to some deviation or something like this. So you have three different possibilities while facing one. You have the luck and get him with one shot, or you have bad luck and bounce off or simply don't deal enough damage. It is equal wich Panther. Caused by the deviation you can get different angles ofcourse. Problem is that those deviation occurs also on close range. So predicting where the shot will hit is a guessing game. I experienced all those different situations ingame. But I think you have to hit the shot trap atleast to deal damage at all. Anyhow, it should be a 1S1K, nothing else when you hit a weak spot and get through. If you hit the mantlet wich is 120 mm and slightly sloped you will have a good chance to bounce off ofcourse.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 31-08-2012, 00:08:16
1. The Sherman with the 76 mm gun needs two shots over long range at the StuG 40 (30 mm side armor), the Panzer IV and StuG IV (30 mm side armor) get killed in one shot by the same gun.
Tank hitpoints are based on a combination of the most likely to be hit rear and side armours.  The StuG 40, being based on the PzIII, has a much thicker rear than the StuG IV, so thus has more hitpoints.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ahonen on 31-08-2012, 02:08:29
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

Tanks performing nothing like you expect them to is fun? Landing a perfect ambush shot on a Sherman from a Marder or on a Panther's sides from an M10 at range and getting killed as reward is fun?

Tank guns have become so unreliable in 2.45 that you can't trust any tank to fulfill its role correctly.

Light armoured TDs are doomed, and tanks that rely on long range shooting suffered greatly.

Why would range even affect shell damage after penetration is beyond me. If it penetrates, it penetrates, and that's all that should count. Now larger tanks with better crew protection (Churchill or Tiger for example) should have a chance at surviving a penetrating shot, and low caliber guns should maybe not always 1s1k the average tank (a PzIII surviving a single 37mm shot to the side seems fine).

But a PzIV surviving a penetrating shot from a 75mm M3 gun or a Sherman surviving a penetrating shot from a 75/L48 is insane.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: DLFReporter on 31-08-2012, 08:08:19
...
So finaly some footage (for more info read the description):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kTGKjkz-yY
I hope this helps to bring some clarification about the complains. I may make some other test aswell ;)

Please upload some more of these tests. So far all the shots you fired with the panther while stationary seem to be as I'd expect them to be.

Another point to add, make sure to place the tanks in a circle around your position, the way it is now, the distance between the tanks in the middle and you and the ones on the left/right is bigger than150m! And the Angle increases as well. But perhaps this was intended. :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 31-08-2012, 08:08:26
Even better would be to put the PZIV H in the middle and then place shermans in a circle around it facing in the same direction like this:
               [ ]
        [ ]          [ ]
    [ ]      [P]      [ ]
        [ ]          [ ]
               [ ]

This way you get all the angles while distance is constant.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 31-08-2012, 09:08:53
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

That´s really a highly subjective statement. Atm I´m just sitting in front of the PC facepalming myself after half of the tank engagements.

edit: I sound like an arse again. All in all FH2 is great, but previous versions showed that you could imo do better with the tank system.

@ Shitmaker: Nice video. Please make one with the Panzer IV H. You could show frontal hits also, because  those M4A3s stand 75mm/L48 hits easily. I´m not sure whether that issue is still present on the M4A1 with the 76mm gun. Would be nice to see that also.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 31-08-2012, 11:08:06
What I wanted to show is the randomnes of shots and their dealt damage. Those Shermans have all the same side armor, except the both Jumbo's on the right side - atleast they should in theory. The M4A3E2 takes two shots from the side at this range. If you get closer they are 1S1K aswell.

If you repeat this experiment hundred times you will always get different results. It doesn't matter how far the target is away and and wich angle you have. You can easily 1S1K a Sherman at a range of over 150 with a angle of 60 degree or less, but on the other hand you can bounce off a point blank target as shown in the video or a target that is in a better position.

@EU: The problem of the StuG 40 compared to the StuG IV and Panzer IV is the side armor not the rear armor. Please correct me if I got your point wrong. I will uplaod some more videos.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ciupita on 31-08-2012, 13:08:40
What I wanted to show is the randomnes of shots and their dealt damage. Those Shermans have all the same side armor, except the both Jumbo's on the right side - atleast they should in theory. The M4A3E2 takes two shots from the side at this range. If you get closer they are 1S1K aswell.

If you repeat this experiment hundred times you will always get different results. It doesn't matter how far the target is away and and wich angle you have. You can easily 1S1K a Sherman at a range of over 150 with a angle of 60 degree or less, but on the other hand you can bounce off a point blank target as shown in the video or a target that is in a better position.

@EU: The problem of the StuG 40 compared to the StuG IV and Panzer IV is the side armor not the rear armor. Please correct me if I got your point wrong. I will uplaod some more videos.

76mm M4A3 tanks have wet ammo storage which gives them more HP IIRC.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 31-08-2012, 15:08:59
As some people have said before, including myself. If a tank gets penetrated, it is what is behind that that matters. An M4A3 was a gigantic improvement over older sherman tanks in terms of combat safety.

A churchill tank was the safest tank to be in when it got hit thanks to a great design of fuel lines placement and ammo storage.

And a panther tank/KT/PZIV stored its ammo in the side armour areas. AKA if a shell penetrated that area....

These are all important things when a tank gets penetrated.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 31-08-2012, 19:08:58
But in 2.4 Firelfly was able to shoot Panther with 1 shot by shooting to their turret - not neccessary finding its short trap - was it changed in 2.45?
Kwiot, the panthers frontal turret armour is 100mm thick. The 17PDR punches trough 130mm of armour at 500 meters without any problem. Yet you demand that a sherman tank with 55mm of armour, sloped back giving 90mm protection, gets one shotted by a KWK 40 wich penetrates 99mm of armour at 500 meters?

Sherman and sloped back? Ahahahaha....

Panzer IV should be able to 1 shot Sherman from the side and in the back.... I remember when I had to shoot with 2 shots Sherman 76mm in the back using Stug... -_-' And the angle was higher than 60 degrees...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 31-08-2012, 19:08:51
Not sloped back armor, you derp. FRONT armor sloped BACKWARDS.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 31-08-2012, 20:08:29
Which despite the slope should still be an easy one-shot-kill by any gun of the time...

A penetration should be portryed as kill ingame. Wet storage etc. might help some crew members to get out of the vehicle, but you aren´t seriously telling me that Sherman crews continued fighting when being hit by a high calibre gun with 75mm diameter. The Sherman is very likely to be waste and you can be rather sure that the crew is unable to operate the tank, because some are dead, or badly injured, not to mention confusion, concussion, disorientation and panic and fire (even with the wet storage). The tank can´t be used at that point - maybe it can be recovered later, but a Sherman when being hit wasn´t the resistant super tank it´s in 2.45. And all hits on 500 metres were penetrations on Shermans. Crew survivability has nothing to do with the tank being knocked out and Shermans were easy to knock out, unlike ingame.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 31-08-2012, 21:08:11
Another video now with the PIV H shooting at the front armor from 75 metre at a Sherman M1A1 - should be an easy 1s1k if you ask me. You are able to 1S1k the Sherman from the front, but it is much more difficult than making a 1s1k with the normal 75mm Sherman at the PIV. The Sherman 75 mm has the same fire power ingame what makes flanking and firing into the side of a Sherman over long range with a PIV damn difficult. The fact that you deal with much more allied tanks on maps like Cobra makes you easy food. The PIV H without the skirts seems to be less armored than the PIV H with skirts btw - that is just wrong. The Video with the M4A3 looks similar to the one with the M4A1. Will upload it later ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uci14ryEUk
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-09-2012, 02:09:22
where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun

Tanks performing nothing like you expect them to is fun? Landing a perfect ambush shot on a Sherman from a Marder or on a Panther's sides from an M10 at range and getting killed as reward is fun?

Tank guns have become so unreliable in 2.45 that you can't trust any tank to fulfill its role correctly.

Light armoured TDs are doomed, and tanks that rely on long range shooting suffered greatly.

Why would range even affect shell damage after penetration is beyond me. If it penetrates, it penetrates, and that's all that should count. Now larger tanks with better crew protection (Churchill or Tiger for example) should have a chance at surviving a penetrating shot, and low caliber guns should maybe not always 1s1k the average tank (a PzIII surviving a single 37mm shot to the side seems fine).

But a PzIV surviving a penetrating shot from a 75mm M3 gun or a Sherman surviving a penetrating shot from a 75/L48 is insane.

Again, your opinion is purely derived from your experience in playing FH2's Western European maps.

I asked this again: are you into helping or just trying to hog popularity by keep preaching about tired late-war tanks? Try North Africa sometimes! I think somehow everybody keeps their German bias to their own, but some guys just don't. They love the late war tank wars, because they feel great for taking the in-game Panther and Tiger tanks, also the Jagdpanzers and dress like Wittman or Carius.

Help to fix the fucking problem by talking about the subject: what cause the seemingly random penetration problems? How it happens (see the gameplay videos)? Etc.

It is clear from the beginning that the devs really know what cannons punch through which armour. And Shitmaker has been helping by doing real stuff instead of posting the obvious penetration tables. And I think Butcher has a good opinion here:

Which despite the slope should still be an easy one-shot-kill by any gun of the time...

A penetration should be portryed as kill ingame. Wet storage etc. might help some crew members to get out of the vehicle, but you aren´t seriously telling me that Sherman crews continued fighting when being hit by a high calibre gun with 75mm diameter. The Sherman is very likely to be waste and you can be rather sure that the crew is unable to operate the tank, because some are dead, or badly injured, not to mention confusion, concussion, disorientation and panic and fire (even with the wet storage). The tank can´t be used at that point - maybe it can be recovered later, but a Sherman when being hit wasn´t the resistant super tank it´s in 2.45. And all hits on 500 metres were penetrations on Shermans. Crew survivability has nothing to do with the tank being knocked out and Shermans were easy to knock out, unlike ingame.

Well, but then to "kill" a tank, you have to kill the crew in-game despite their survivability chance in the real situation. So to be fair, we have to agree with Mudra once more: Since BF2 is such a limited game engine when it comes to simulating realistic tank warfare, then we have to resort to the simplest system: penetration = kill, forgetting the tank interior layout design. If you want to play real WW2 tank simulator, you certainly can't do that in BF2.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 01-09-2012, 17:09:55
What bothers me atm, is the comparison between the PIV and the Sherman side armor in relation to both guns. At long range you need two shots to the side with both of the tanks shooting at each other. One thing I will give the Sherman as an advantage are the 8 mm more side armor. But what simply gets overlooked is the fact that the KwK of the PIV H can penetrate 30 mm more armor at 500 metre. This is so much more fire power that you should have an advantage while flanking with the PIV H. Though you have to keep in mind that the 75mm M3 gun has much, much, much more deviation over long range than the KwK 40L48.

The Marder has three major problems atm. Too few firepower -  this Pak 40 is too weak and there is no discusion about it. Too few ammunition and this connected with an insane deviation and bullet drop. You really have to be an experienced tanker if you plan to get into a Marder I on Cobra.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ahonen on 02-09-2012, 17:09:54
Again, your opinion is purely derived from your experience in playing FH2's Western European maps.

Which is totally why I mention a PzIII taking a hit from a 37mm gun, something that only happens in Africa.
Right.

Help to fix the fucking problem by talking about the subject: what cause the seemingly random penetration problems? How it happens (see the gameplay videos)? Etc.

It not a penetration problem, it's a damage at range problem. And the reason is well know, as the damage at specific range table that is used in the game is known already. No need for videos or anything, just see those crazy numbers.

As posted by Eat Uranium on the previous thread:



To provide some hard numbers for you to think about:

All this is without the anglemod considered, so bear in mind this is best case.  Using 3 Shermans, the m4a1mid_eu, m4a1_76mm and m4a3.  Only considering their hulls.  m4a1_76mm and m4a3 are identical.  The sideplates on the m4a1mid_eu are the same as the front.

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs frontal armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                            1                          3                     96m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3             2                          4                     N/A

7.5cm L48 - PzIV Ausf.H gun vs side armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                             1                          2                    188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3              1                          2                    188m


7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs frontal armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                              1                          2                    188m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3               1                          3                    96m

7.5cm L70 - Panther gun vs side armour
Tank                             Hits to kill at 10m   Hits to kill at 300m   1s1k max distance
m4a1mid_eu                              1                          2                    245m
m4a1_76mm and m4a3               1                          2                    245m




Did you perhaps miss that last time around? Just look at those numbers.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 02-09-2012, 17:09:10
So how the hell I didn't shoot a normal sherman to the side when the range was I think ~50m and angle was ~90 degrees?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 02-09-2012, 18:09:29
The M8 Greyound did too well after getting shot by an 88 from like 20m on Vossenack. It burned. Maybe it's the movement of the vehicle that gives it greater survivablilty.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-09-2012, 00:09:35
The numbers posted by Eat Uranium are not all right. You can kill all Shermans, except the both Jumbo 75/76 versions with one shot to the frontal armor with the Panzer IV. It works also on longer ranges like 25 metres though I don't know the limit where you need more than one shot. And it is kinda luck if you hit the right spot or not - it is a damn fine line.

I uploaded another video showing the problem with the Marder btw. It is over 200 metre so something I would call effective combat range in FH2. I have a second video where the angles are more extrem but at shorter distance - the result is nevertheless the same. The impact of the angle is too high and the damage of the Pak 40 to weak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QiNUISt0PY

The movement of the tanks is indeed a huge problem, same as the movement of the gun. The damage should be increased at such a rate, that the movement doesn't matter anymore. I see alot of tanks starting to burn in those situations, so there isn't needed a big damage increasement. A system that would also fit well is a system like in Battlegroup Frontlines. It works like the bleeding system. If a tank starts to burn you have some second left to bail it/maybe try to repair it until it explodes automatic - but you have to do it fast. This way you don't punish the guy who disabled the tank by giving the guy in the burning tank the possibility to shoot back.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 03-09-2012, 01:09:32
My calculations I did deal only with hulls, not turrets, and only with (Normandy) M4A1 and M4A1 76mm/M4A3.

I'm though actually genuinely interested to know why FH2 doesn't have critical damage loss on vehicles.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: ajappat on 03-09-2012, 09:09:54
I was actually playing VBF2 yeasterday and started thinking the same. It would fix many of these problems where people claim this and that should be 1s1k, while they are not atm. Just make them burn and give that tanker 5 second time to start repairing or shoot back and die with his tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 03-09-2012, 09:09:29
While being a nice idea in general, the problem would be a lot of people bailing. This problem doesn´t occur with 1s1k.

I think at a certain calibre a penetration should be a kill. With certain calibre I mean that 37mm, 2 Pounder and 50mms shouldn´t necessarily 1s1k Shermans/Panzers, even when penetrating because the diameter is smaller in relation to the tanks size. In those cases damage should be caused.

To clear things up: Shermans would still 1s1k Panthers to the side, because the diameter is big enough. 75/L48 would 1s1k Shermans at any spot and Churchills to the side etc.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 03-09-2012, 11:09:19
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
Butcher is right that there are many people bailing, but they do it anyway I have to say. I think this would be a good feature to have in FH in any situation, I think it wouldnt solve all problems 2.45 (but some) brought us, but would make the game better in general.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: DLFReporter on 03-09-2012, 11:09:32
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
...

Who said that?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-09-2012, 12:09:34
My calculations I did deal only with hulls, not turrets, and only with (Normandy) M4A1 and M4A1 76mm/M4A3.

I'm though actually genuinely interested to know why FH2 doesn't have critical damage loss on vehicles.

There are two spots you have to hit to kill a Sherman from the front with one shot from the PIV H. One spot is on the front hull and the other one at the turret front though the turret kill is unlikely.
I tried it with the Normandy tanks aswell (also the 76 mm version) and you can kill them with one shot to the front hull. I don't know how the different tanks are coded (M4A3 from the Bulge maps vs. M4A3 from Normandy maps for ex.). They all get killed in one shot if you hit this "weak" spot. Also the 105 mm version that you can find on Cobra.

@Ajappat: thats exactly the idea. You get a reward for shooting first and making a critical hit and the player who got tricked can decide what to do - fire back and die with his tank or try to bail and survive.
In both situations the more clever tanker won't get punished as much as it is atm. This would require to give TD their old strength, because they are all too weak atm.

@Butcher: if a tanker bails you are still in a superior postion compared to the actual system. If the tank will explode you won't have to worry about him anymore and can concentrate on other things like killing the bailed tanker or deal with other threats. The only punishment in this situation is the "lost" kill but I can sacrifice this. I see so many bailers with the current system anyway that it doesn't matter fore me.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: ajappat on 03-09-2012, 12:09:23
Wait , wait, wait having a timer after being hit critically is codable and not even very complicated? I think it would be a really great improvement.
Butcher is right that there are many people bailing, but they do it anyway I have to say. I think this would be a good feature to have in FH in any situation, I think it wouldnt solve all problems 2.45 (but some) brought us, but would make the game better in general.

That's how it is in original Battlefield 2. At about 3 bars of health left, vehicle starts losing it very rapidly. There's barely time to bailout and start to repair if that happens and obviously its death sentence if there is enemy shooting at you.

I think it's also present in current FH2 atleast for Chevy 30cwt LRDG and possibly some other light vehicles.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 03-09-2012, 16:09:24
So adding this to tanks should be easy?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 03-09-2012, 16:09:40
In FH2 tanks, if the healthbar is near depleted, it stays that way until you bail the tank. If we bail at that condition, the health will continue to drop until it explodes. Usually, the explosion will kill the player/driver who exited from the top of the turret. Many bots died this way, and the kill message will say

killer <victim tank> victim

So that is how a PIAT soldier managed to kill a German tanker with Panther tank, at least from my experience.

You can't repair near-dying tanks if it has no drivers (other occupants won't affect this). If you tried to repair, while you keep tightening the nuts with your wrench, you may see a slight increase in the health bar, but it will quickly drop again to the previous level, making all you effort useless. If a driver is present inside it, the health bar won't drop and you can continue to repair it to full health.


edit: making it more readable
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: ajappat on 03-09-2012, 16:09:46
Is that so? I don't think I have never noticed it being like that...

About the kill message, it also happens when you simply shoot the the tank and bailer dies in explosion.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-09-2012, 21:09:28
I for one see alot of burning tanks driving around the map. Many of them don't even care about it. 
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ahonen on 04-09-2012, 01:09:19
I for one see alot of burning tanks driving around the map. Many of them don't even care about it.

Quite the issue that a near disabled tank can still operate as if nothing happened.

PR has a mechanic that causes the turret to lock when when enough damage is dealt to a vehicle. Unlike the movement thing which is buggy, this one works just fine and forces people to stop combat after taking a hard hit. Could be a good idea, still allowing you to drive the tank to safety for repairs while preventing you to fight (the turret is really stuck in the position it was at when the damage occurred, making any kind of aiming impossible).

Could be implemented for when a vehicle's HP is below, say, 60%. As for burning, it really should deplete HP even if the vehicle is crewed.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 04-09-2012, 07:09:55
The turret lock seems to be a good idea to me to prevent the tanker from killing the poor Panzerfaust guy.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 04-09-2012, 09:09:44
I support this idea!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-09-2012, 20:09:36
So another problem - not german biased btw - but I stumbled over it while playing Mount Olympus. The 2 Pounder is coded too weak. You will never be able to 1S1K the german tanks from any angle or any range, except the Panzer II C ofcourse. But the too weak coded 2 Pounder will also let you struggle over ranges longer than 100 metre against the Panzer II or the SdKfz 222. In those situations you will need two shots with the Crsuiser to the side of a Panzer II from point blank.

And some footage of shooting with the Crsuiser IV at the PIIIJe and the PIV D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i81EtJ268Yw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 07-09-2012, 20:09:36
Intentional.  Depending on time frame, the 2pdr either has 40mm or 50mm pen projectiles.  These are either AP and APCBC or could also be normal and supercharged iirc.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-09-2012, 21:09:31
Why is it coded this way? The Panzer II has a side armor of 14,5 mm and I get real problems on mid range with it. I shoot the first time only to give my position away and the Panzer II escapes or shoots back - the point is that it doesn't make any sense. If I stand next to a PIIIJe (30mm side armor) or a PIV D (20mm side armor), I should kill him at this rnage posted in my video. There is just no logic behind it also according to your penetration values.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ahonen on 09-09-2012, 07:09:48
Intentional.  Depending on time frame, the 2pdr either has 40mm or 50mm pen projectiles.  These are either AP and APCBC or could also be normal and supercharged iirc.

And how does that matter as far as damage caused goes? Does having less penetration magically reduce the damage a shell causes when it does penetrate?

And a PzII surviving a penetrating 40mm shot is crazy.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 09-09-2012, 14:09:24
Yes, if something penetrates say 10mm more than the thickness, it does less damage than if it penetrates 20mm more.  This extra damage is approximately linear in 2.45, where as previous versions it was approximately exponential.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 09-09-2012, 16:09:46
Short range

3 2PDR shots on the side of a PZIII.....still not dead....
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-09-2012, 18:09:42
Short range

3 2PDR shots on the side of a PZIII.....still not dead....

Sounds like you hit it from a angle. Everything below 90 degree leads to drastic damage decrease. I shot with a PIV H yesterday at the Sherman M4A1 of Captian Cymro from 75-100 metre at around 60 degree - Luettich was the map. I hit him first and he hit me shortly after my shot. The problem was that he was reloading slightly faster thus leading to my death. These are the moments where I could punch my keyboard through my monitor.  >:(

Captain C can confirm this situations so it isn't a joke or something similar. The impact of the angle is in general much higher than it should be also at close ranges. And this is what happened to you Theta. Though I have to admit that the 2Pdr is just coded wrong may it be intention or not. I want to start trolling PIII's on Mount Olympus again.  :P
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 10-09-2012, 00:09:04
I didn't care for this debate a whole lot until the other day I shot at a german halftrack with the king tiger and it didn't budge... took three hits to take down...!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 10-09-2012, 08:09:35
It is a random occurrence tits...

I also witness a Hanomag that survives a hit from my stolen Panzerfaust 30. But that's random, because it will mostly blow up at once in any other engagements.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 10-09-2012, 10:09:44
It is a random occurrence tits...

There is no randomness in BF 2 (or at least it never was, I guess the devs found a way to make it...)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Slayer on 10-09-2012, 21:09:00
No, they didn't.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 30-09-2012, 21:09:00
You will never be able to 1S1K the german tanks from any angle or any range,

yea we dont want 1s1k with tanks so the changed worked, good.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 30-09-2012, 22:09:11
yea we dont want 1s1k with tanks so the changed worked, good.

This sounded pretty final, but I might aswell ask to be sure. Ain´t there any insider information about plans or internal discussions to change, or even slightly adjust the tank system?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 01-10-2012, 00:10:39
You will never be able to 1S1K the german tanks from any angle or any range,

yea we dont want 1s1k with tanks so the changed worked, good.

Did you really read the problems I explained and thought about them carefuly? Because it seems like you didn't do that.
If I have a tank and flank an enemy and my gun is capable of killing it with ease from the side, then I should be rewarded with a kill - you know, this is called fun and feels like an achievement. If you want players to stay with the mod then give them something they can rely on and something that is logical. The actual tank system is far away from this and frustrates the players more then giving them an enjoyable time. It might be cool for newbies, but for the long timers it is a pain in the ass and for players who are looking for a nice historical accurate experience even more.

It is a game and it is a fine line between realism and fun. But the scaling in the tanking system doesn't work. It makes stationary guns and tank destroyers deathtraps because they are still 1S1K in most of the cases.

Stop beeing so stubborn or you will kill the mod. Or atleast stop to make advertising with the so highly praised historical accuracy. Because this element got lost with the latest patch atleast in terms of the tank system. Tanking feels like CQC with machines and not like epic tank battles where you will have to fear the stronger tanks and try to think about a strategy to solve tactical problems. If you want to ignore this, then it is your good right and this mod is your baby, but I guess it feels better for the devs if the players enjoy playing their mod and don't make negative comments all the time.

I can only invite you to play the game with us more then once in a half year and you will get the biggest problems quite fast. I tried to explain the flaws in the most constructive way I could (creating videos and other stuff) but it feels like running against a wall tbh. Only thing I hear is that those features are intented and that you tested those "features" long enough - thatswhy we have imune bikers and invincible players who shot you right in the face after you tricked them. Seems not legit if I take a look at the current build. Maybe the devs should try to release smaller patches with tweaks and bug fixes and communicate problems with the playerbase in a constructive way after each release. If you can't get enough beta testers, then involve the players who are playing the mod every day. The question is, whether you want to get feedback or not. Don't refuse to feedback of veterans with "learn to aim" or similar things.
The server hotfix is a good start for this, the question is how this will be managed in the future. I am looking forward to this  :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 01-10-2012, 01:10:52
+ 1 for 5hitm4k3rs comment. That´s pretty much my opinion also.

I think it´s worth to notice that the previous thread got some hundred posts within some weeks.

The second thread about the strange tank system in the feedback section (which is a section not used as much as "general discussion" or "suggestions") has seven pages of discussion within weeks also.

Tank combat concerns people.

If we don´t get a realistic tank system, because devs didn´t want 1s1ks on tanks I can´t wait for the Eastern Front to come! I will cry tears of joy if Theta0123 comes here complaining that his ISU 152 can´t 1s1k StuGs. Let´s face it - that makes as much sense as Shermans standing Panther shots. ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-10-2012, 05:10:35
Well, actually I have more problems for not being able to kill cyclist instead of failing to make hole on a Sherman with my awesum 75 mm L/70.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 07:10:48
Our tank system is inconsistent because there are too many variables. That's it. Some tanks have 5-6 even more materials, add to that the anglemod, bunch of ammo variants, hundreds of tank variants etc and you sometime have a hard problem anticipate the outcome of your actions. This makes it feel random, yes.

Since some tanks have small areas with inpenetrable materials, and you fire at the tank from say 200meters, those areas will be on your screen reduced to a few pixels. When you hit those areas, you won't realise it, so the hit is perceived as a "bug" on your end.

Overall, tanks shouldnt 1s1k each other, but when you need 20 shots with the Panzer III N on the side of a tank with the 75mm AP round, obviously something is wrong.

Agreed also that stationary AT guns are overpowered compared to tanks, we can look in to nerfing these as well.

our end-goal with 2.4 was more fun tanking, and longer duration tankfights as well as less vulnurable tanks. The whole dev team agreed that tanks felt weak and silly in FH2 compared to FH1, so that is the reason we went through a re-design of the tank combat. A few players might still want to have those 1s1k to rack up their scores, but we dont develop towards them. (sorrry) Currently our tank combat allows tanks to live longer, so that goal is achieved. Now we need only to make it easier to anticipate the outcome of specific interactions, as well as fixing the most obvious bugs.

You arent going to get more 1s1k:s with the tanks because that game play was tested and deemed boring and uninteresting.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 01-10-2012, 07:10:44
It makes stationary guns and tank destroyers deathtraps because they are still 1S1K in most of the cases.

Agreed also that stationary AT guns are overpowered compared to tanks, we can look in to nerfing these as well.

Wait, wut?

Seriously, you do that and I'm out of this mod for good... If I wanted arcade gameplay and shiny graphics I would play Heroes and Generals (or Battlefield Heroes, since that's the level of arcade you guys seem to be aiming at).

You seriously need to decide to either go hardcore, or casual, you can't do both, RO 2 tried and look how that worked... Heck just look at FH 2.45 average and peak playernumbers, and you'll see sth is definitely wrong.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: DLFReporter on 01-10-2012, 09:10:21
Let's face it, the way you guys write, this mod is dead.  :'(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-10-2012, 10:10:10
Because some guy is forcing his idea on top of others.

We want realism, you guys gave us weird systems. To be honest, there are many approach of getting players: be different, be niche, provide something different to the market.... or copy/reverse engineer/plagiarise the best practice as in this case, what people perceive FH2 is going to be.

1s1k is okay, especially when it is done correctly, a.k.a when a player driving Sherman V cleverly flanking a Panther G and shot it at 90 degrees to its side armour. A player driving the Panther G might get reckless as his gun is able to punch most allied frontal armour from distance, but flanking allied tankers must be rewarded equally.

Making a tank combat longer is fine, just make it fairer, as reported in many of the tests performed here. It doesn't give you any sense of the "powerfulness" of Tiger I tank.

Talking about "that awesome FH gaming immersion":
TBH, I feel totally scared whenever I encountered a Tiger tank back in FH0.7. As an infantry, you'll piss your pants, much like that during SPR ambush scene, where the ground shakes and rattles when the Tiger rolls.
I feel like an arsehole when driving one back then, because it is so powerful, feels heavy, the engine sounds gives it that 'heavy' feeling. Careless allied tankers who don't utilize their resourcefulness or speed in the open can be picked off easily like harvesting strawberries from the garden.
One or two times, you'll be surprised of how a regular Sherman could kill you in an instant, shortly after you see their smoking muzzles. It turns out that the Sherman is actually a Firefly, because you just can't see the elongated barrel from afar.

How it felt in current version:
But in FH2 Tiger is just another big sized tank. Sure, the gun still packs some punch and the armour feels thicker. But encountering Sherman feels like another shell bouncing contest, which I will win most of the times. You no longer care whether they are Fireflies or not anymore, since 17 pdr now don't seem to be that deadly as well, at least in a few encounter, I survived the shots.

Now, some praise:
I welcome the introduction of new sound effects. It is cool stuff that should be added long long before.

Overall, I still think that FH2 has all the best tank combat experience of all combined arms shooter game out there. It has cool semi-realistic effects, historical accuracy to some degree, and impressive experience as a whole. What we are fearing here is the snowball effect, since Eastern front will be mostly tank-dominated battle, we surely don't want to experience silly engagements during it.

Back in FH1, I remembered all the frustration in Kharkov 1941 of trying to kill a single T-34 nesting in a bridge. That works as how the documentaries and stories told us: T-34 as clumsy as it goes (poor crew management, space, and equipments), it is also difficult to kill with early German arsenals. That difficult tank finally explodes from friendly fire incident. We now have ladungs, explosives, satchels, and all sort of stuffs to properly kill 'invincible' tanks, wasn't that balancing enough?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2012, 10:10:04
It has nothing to do with "Balancing". Who ever mentioned something about balancing? It's about the way tank combat work, not to balance out factions against each other (even though there seem to be idiots who think only German tanks had their damage reduced).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 01-10-2012, 11:10:15
Because some guy is forcing his idea on top of others.

We want realism, you guys gave us weird systems.

It might seem so, but this was probably a team decision. I don't believe a single dev (even if it's Natty) can have so much influence on others.

As for the realism. I don't want ultimate realism, since that would include me marching for a few hours and then being mowed down without ever seeing where the shot come from. But I want plausible, and Cromwells (or Shermans) bouncing 88s when clearly your muzzle is stuck right up their backside doesn't look like my idea of plausible...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-10-2012, 12:10:48
As for the realism. I don't want ultimate realism, since that would include me marching for a few hours and then being mowed down without ever seeing where the shot come from. But I want plausible, and Cromwells (or Shermans) bouncing 88s when clearly your muzzle is stuck right up their backside doesn't look like my idea of plausible...

Ultimate realism is for combat simulators, not a themed game like BF2.

I agree with your idea of realism. And your experience is probably coming from playing Project Reality. I hate that as well.

My idea of "realism" is something that can at least be referenced into, so you can feel some of these real life quotes true in-game "17 pdr cannon is powerful and effective," "FlaK 18 is deadly!" "Tiger tanks are dangerous!" "Shermans are death traps!" "the allies are resourceful!" But surely you don't have to go down into something like "Panther tanks are mechanically unreliable, it breaks down often" because you can't simulate that in-game.
And especially, not something utterly literal like "76 mm APCBC shell fired from M1 cannon can penetrate up to xxx.xxxxx mm of rolled homogenous 1944 German steel armour" and all the bullshite debates that came after like "so the Sherman 76 mm should be able to one shot kill this particular tank from this particular distance and angle."
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2012, 12:10:24
But that's still the case. A Tiger is still better than a Sherman, it just can't 1s1k it in every situation. And now the veteran tankers are getting their panties in a bunch becuase of that. It's not enough that the Tiger is better, it needs to 1s1k as wel, otherwise all realism goes to hell :D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 01-10-2012, 12:10:19
(even though there seem to be idiots who think only German tanks had their damage reduced).
If you are referring to my previous thread with the german 75mms: I never denied that allied 76mms etc. are bouncing were they shouldn´t. The changes were just most notable when shooting at Shermans because M4A3s and M4A1s armed with the 76mm already could take hits pre 2.45. Then it got even worse.


@ Natty: Thank you for your answers. But to be honest I think this is the wrong way to go. While I appreciate that you want tank combat to last longer, atm. the engagements seem to be rather weird.

- Tanks getting off shots and then driving back into cover after being hit and then being repaired.

- Tankers bailing their tanks, not rewarding the guy who got off a shot with points (it´s simply not satisfactory for most players to just avoid the tank for the enemy and not get points).

- Stationary weapons (Paks, Pounders) and tankhunters (Marder, the allied 75mm armed Halftrack) being deathtraps and not even worthwhile to use.

- Immersion is basically gone for tank combat.

For me that´s no fun. And you can also see the negative feedback from other long time players. People were even discussing the "penetration = kill rule" pre 2.45... that´s more 1s1ks. But then you decided to make tank combat last longer - the opposite direction. Maybe a poll can give the answers what the community (at least on this forum) wants.

There is basically no realism behind it. There might be a system influenced by realistic armour and gun stats scaled over range; but the player ingame only sees shots bouncing/causing minor damage everywhere. That´s not realistic. But you don´t want it to be realsitic anyway.

I really appreciate the mod, the effort put into this and all the cool updates we get nearly every week. I can really see the love, work and historical knowledge put into this. But my honest feedback is that I´m disappointed by 2.45 tanking.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2012, 12:10:43

- Tanks getting off shots and then driving back into cover after being hit and then being repaired.


That is exactly what was wanted, and that's also what we tested for back in beta. Instead of one way engagements you get actual options and tactics even after the fight has started.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: McCloskey on 01-10-2012, 12:10:07
With the direction this is heading, I can only hope infantry combat is somehow going to be more fluid, because apparently tanking won't be an option for me. Very, very sad panda. :(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 01-10-2012, 13:10:42
But that's still the case. A Tiger is still better than a Sherman, it just can't 1s1k it in every situation. And now the veteran tankers are getting their panties in a bunch becuase of that. It's not enough that the Tiger is better, it needs to 1s1k as wel, otherwise all realism goes to hell :D

If you write that the Tiger I is still a better tank than a Sherman then you overlook a really important problem. The Tiger I and the Firefly are very good examples for this. At a certain range (infact when the Tiger starts to need more than one shot on a Sherman may it be agle + range) then you will get a quite funny phenomen:
Though your first shots hits the Firefly, the Firefly will win the engagement because of the faster reloading speed. And as a result of this you would get something like armor+17pdr of the Firefly is stronger than then the armor+88 of the Tiger I.

I have no problem with scaling down the system to the shorter ranges in FH2. But it isn't funny if I need up to five shots on a simple Sherman on Cobra at a range of 300 metre or less with a PIVH, no matter where I hit him - two shots to the front and one shot to the side would be OK. Same as it feels dumb if I have the perfect spot with a M10 90° at 50 metre and facing the side armor of a Panther. In such a moment I think: nice, I managed to flank him, good way to save one of the HVAP shells and to send him to hell with a normal round. But ofcourse the Panther only starts burning turns the turret a littlebit and shots right into my face. Same goes for all those poor bastards who drive a Marder or sit in a PAK 40 or 88. I don't know how often I shot one of them after I got ambushed - same applies the other way around. I see no way that I will get into a tank with a 2pdr anymore. I used the Daimler MK I and the Crusader on Alam Hlafa yesterday and fired like 20 shots into the flank of the advancing german force and didn't get a single kill. It makes the tank combat on the maps very onesided and in most of the cases it leads to stalemates than offering a nice fluid battle. In many cases the game is confusing me more than I can actualy enjoy it and play it in a relaxed manner.

The first very important step is to take out the random deviation of the fired shells ingame -> this makes the mechanics more predictable besides the fact that it is nonesense even with the scale in mind. Next step would be to tweak the damage values of the guns that are already mentioned in this thread. Last very important step is to fix the hit bugs and hitboxes (though this applies more to the inf gameplay).

On a final note: stop writing nonesense like "the mod is dead"! We have a quite stable playerbase atm enough to fill two servers. The only thing I fear is that we will lose more longtimers if the tanksystem gets developed into a more casual direction. And with the Eastern front in mind, where the tanks will play a very important role without a doubt, it will be important to optimize the system with the feedback of the players. The chance to get a wider fanbase, especialy when I look at other communities like RO/DH or RO2, is something that I wouldn't ignore.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2012, 14:10:25
About the Tiger vs Firefly issue: I looked in the files and it appears their reload time is identical (disclaimer: I'm no expert in coding, but they both have a 4 sec reload). And even if it was the case, this to me would mean tweaking the reload times, not the armor.
And the Sherman M4A3 (the one on Cobra afaik) armor was coded incorrectly in 2.4, it was coded like the M4A1 despite having better armor.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 01-10-2012, 15:10:33
Would anybody mind or consider it helpfull if I made a poll on how the forum members think about the tank system(s)? I´m asking because your decision has been made. I´ve however got the impression a (big?) part of the community was happier with the old tank system/faster tank battles. Making a poll without asking, feels like backstabbing the developers, who obviously have their plans with FH2. Then again it´s important how the community conceives the changes. I however would consider a poll interresting. Maybe I´m wrong and it turns out that most people are happy with the changes made/the direction the mod is going. It would  be vital feedback for the mod and the direction it´s heading to.

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 01-10-2012, 16:10:46
2.4 tanking system was almost perfect - only sometimes appeared strange bugs where hits weren't marked... But now German armor became weaker... Somebody said that allied armor also, but I can't find any allied tank which became weaker than in 2.4... Standard Sherman can shoot Tiger with 2 shots from the side - it takes also quite big amount of armor health from <30 angle. So we're before 2.4 now, where Cromwell could do this... And Tiger often can't shoot M10 at front from distance <100m... Sherman received heavy armor on the ass - I think that the armor thickness of its back is the same as at front... And Panzerfausts 30 are completely useless - at least against allied tanks...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-10-2012, 17:10:11
What do you mean by that? You obviously never tried North Africa.

My observation generally concludes that tank guns are less effective now, for both allies and axis alike. And powerful tanks like Matilda, Valentine, Sherman I, Panther and King Tiger in their era become more vulnerable. Previously, Panzer III J also have some invincibility against smaller guns like 2 pdr, now it was toned down a bit. The Pz III J now took damage from a shot to its frontal armour.

That is how it feels. My huge disappointment comes with how ridiculously difficult to kill a Cromwell. I remembered it just correctly, and yesterday in Operation Totalize map, my bro approached a Tiger and managed to damage it after surviving countless frontal shots from that bot driven tank, the Tiger engine compartment goes in flames (indicating that the point blank shot by the Cromwell's 75 mm to the rear is near fatal). My turn wasn't so lucky, my Cromwell was instantly one shot to the front by a Marder while I was trying to kill its crew with coax MG.

While Panther guns feels weaker now, its side armour seems to be upgraded. But overall, it reduces the effectiveness of Panther tank from version 2.4. You can't feel the awesome powerfulness of that L/70 long barreled cannon, yet I can't easily die from being flanked by a Sherman or Cromwell now.

I might enjoy the scaled tank combat if I don't find weird bugs/unintended consequences like these. I never expect it to be perfect either, but at least don't say as if the weird stuff is "totally intended."

Fine, we can't one shot a Sherman to its front with a KwK38 anymore, but can we have the M3 also nerfed down a bit?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 17:10:24
not reading through all the last posts because they go in to too much detail about specific tanks and ammo types.

overall; we agreed before 2.4 that we simply didn't enjoy playing FH2. So we listed down all the things that annoyed us. Tanks being killed too easily was one of them. Lightning even stated how he hated driving for minutes in FH2 only to be killed and have to respawn and do it again.
This led to many inactive devs coming back to the team, we actually spent 6months only improving things we were unhappy with with fh2. The result was 2.4, one of our best patches.
In short you can say that tanking becomes too simple and arcadey when the tanks just blow up by one shot all the time. We dont enjoy the spawn-screen that much. So I helped Kev and the coders kick-start the anglemod thing, which works "so-so" and feels random at times, but it does help reducing 1S1Ks. We also wanted tanks to be engaged in longer fights, so you can play more cat-and-mouse and actually feel as in a combat.. Not just wait at a corner and who-ever shoots first, wins.

So sorry.. but the click-to-win game play, we tried it, and didnt like it. Tanks can resist some more damage so you dont have to re-spawn and camp at the tank-depo so much. The turret control thing was also a part of this, as goes a bunch of other tweaks like special ammo types distributed differently, and that you can repair your tank much faster now with the wrench.

If you have specific game play feedback on tanks, please post so, but keep it somewhat readable please. No walls of text about real-world tank-facts, we have enough of those. Map specific encounters and ingame experiences gets more attention.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Surfbird on 01-10-2012, 17:10:08
Would anybody mind or consider it helpfull if I made a poll on how the forum members think about the tank system(s)? I´m asking because your decision has been made. I´ve however got the impression a (big?) part of the community was happier with the old tank system/faster tank battles. Making a poll without asking, feels like backstabbing the developers, who obviously have their plans with FH2. Then again it´s important how the community conceives the changes. I however would consider a poll interresting. Maybe I´m wrong and it turns out that most people are happy with the changes made/the direction the mod is going. It would  be vital feedback for the mod and the direction it´s heading to.

A poll would be interesting to know the communities opinion, but I'ma fraid of flamewar when there is a result, as some people are pretty mad about this topic already.
 
By the way, I doubt they turn back everything to 2.4. And I personally think they did not do too much wrong with the tank system right now.

My guess is that the devs wanted to get some luck and hits involved that don't completely fuck up the enemy tank and just damage the tank without completely disabling it. The 1s1k system has its disadvantages and I disagree with the 1s1k system when it works in 100 % of cases as people request. It leads to you being able to "calculate" the tank battle. Like taking the shot, knowing the enemy tank is going to be down after. That even was the argument of a lot of people.

I personally think it's not realistic to drive around knowing any shot in the side/rear is going to be lethal anyway. Takes away the excitement of a tank battle to me. On the other hand I understand it's frustrating when you sneak up on an enemy tank and hit it in the rear from short range and just damage it while the enemy turret turns and kills you. That should not happen.

But I seriously think a lot of people are overreacting because tanking has changed and is less calculable to them. Driving close up to an enemy tank for example would have been very risky irl, the enmy tank will not be able to turn around and shoot you as fast when you are further away. Things have become harder to predict and the tank drivers need to adjust their play style for sure. I think many of you don't want to do so and rather now what's gonna happen 10 seconds before you shoot. Actually this is the case even now, you are just not 100 % sure, but still 80 %.

Anyway, you got your valid points. Shells should be lethal from close range and the current system is kinda weird sometimes. That lucky survival happens too often currently. But I think it's wrong to say that the current system is wrong. I think making tank combat less calculable is not bad, just the % of lucky survival should be reduced and some bugs and weird damage/tank's armour values should be adjusted as well. I'm not sure how the coding for hits on tanks work, but I imagine it the devs probably have to adjust a lot of different factors to simulate a % Chance of survival, which should be between 5 and 10 %. Would be interesting to know how that works.

The devs should note the criticism though and put it together with their general idea behind the tanking system to optimize the current one - In my opinion optimization is needed, total rework or going back to 2.4 is not.

Edit: @ Natty: Ah, just read your stuff. Interesting, basically your intentions were those that I thought of. I like, as I said, the idea behind it, just be open for optimizing it and don't completely ignore the criticism. Imo there are tons of feedback given already, no need to post a lot more of it to show you that things might be slightly wrong.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 17:10:33
we dont need a poll.. we base design decisions on

- player feedback
- ingame observations
- our own goals (how we want our mod to play)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 01-10-2012, 18:10:28
Well tanks get 1S1K often in FH2, because there are too many tanks in a map.

We can't feel a tank like a real tank should in the previous games: absorb much of the bullet damages and keep pushing on. The so-called "knowledgeable" players exploited their knowledge on armour thickness and penetration power of each guns, and harvest scores from newbie or reckless tankers too often. A great example is kuebelschrecking and jeepzooks. The last patch (2.45) somewhat makes some tanks feels like a tank. I think you just simply corrected this problem with this new system.

But when speaking about tank vs tank wise, it produced a totally different opinion, and this is where the problem is. It is definitely not a 1s1k German fanboy fantasies, but sometimes it just defies realism plausibility. Like I said, when I sit inside a Cromwell, I never expect it to be a super tank or such. Same with Fireflies and other 17 pdr-armed tanks in-game, I just want to feel their threat when playing as Germans.

Back in FH1, most bullets bounced off my King Tiger, I feel superior. But suddenly, I was hit, followed by a loud sound effect, my health bar turned red. I knew a Firefly was around, so I thread lower. That's the kind of experience that I feel "realistic" somewhat.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 19:10:14
I'm sorry.. was your experience so that you had an intact King Tiger and you were reduced to critical damage (red) from 1 shot ?  :-\
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2012, 19:10:46
I'm sorry.. was your experience so that you had an intact King Tiger and you were reduced to critical damage (red) from 1 shot ?  :-\

He means in FH1 and that he liked it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 01-10-2012, 21:10:57
Could you please reduce or remove the random deviation atleast, so that I can predict where my shot is going to hit the target. I don't want to get killed just because I have some bad luck.

Ofcourse I can still 1S1K tanks but the influence of randomness or exagerated or wierd results is too high atm. And to make stationary guns and TD more effective you will have to give them more armor. The player who moves and makes efforts to engage his enemy is punished too often. Scaling is OK for me but not up to the extend we have now.

Btw, I support a poll.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 01-10-2012, 21:10:12
This all is sad news. Tanking is no option for me then. Bring on the planes. I think I will just take Mustangs or one of the three FW190s on Cobra (we all know that Luftwaffe controlled the sky in 1944) :P. Seriously FH2 lost a big part of its charme in 2.45 - and that was a huge amount of realism. It´s not only the tank system. You know what, bring on the Pershings for Normandy, who the hell cares?

I hoped this was just a "smaller" issue with version 2.45, but obviously you decided to go down the more arcade road. I´m not as motivated to play as I used to be pre 2.45 and since nothing is going to change, I think I reached my peak of playing FH2. :(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 23:10:44
well, it's quite arcadish to just click and kill anything you see. When tanks resist more shots, you need to commit to the fight more, you can't just sit and wait for the enemy to appear and waste him, you need to move as well. Use the maps and the terrain as tactic. + tanks dont need to be as afraid of engaging infantry in closer areas. We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
The only map I really feel the inf vs tank game play is anywhere near what it should be is in ramelle, but there it's bordering on being too extreme. In most maps you just lol at any tank and toss some zook shell at him.

Naah, the pro's with more resilient tanks outweighs any "realism" data by far.

Weirdly, this thread is about how powerful tanks became less vulnurable, yet you want tanks to not resist shots? Kind of confusing feedback. I suggest outlining the overall tank-combat goods and bads so it's easier to digest all the feedback. What happens with walls of text is that devs don't read it, so you'll end up just barking at the moon. :-\

currently Im not responsible for any tanks and haven't been involved in their coding, so pls dont ask me why specific models behave as they do, I only gave you our high-end goals, which was more fun tanking. Im sure anyone agrees that it's better since 2.4 than before, but still needs work to become as good as it could be
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 01-10-2012, 23:10:13
Whoa whoa whooaaaa! Are you seriously telling me that this many-shots-to-kill bullshit is going to stay?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 01-10-2012, 23:10:00
Whoa whoa whooaaaa! Are you seriously telling me that this many-shots-to-kill bullshit is going to stay?
specify
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 01-10-2012, 23:10:19
Tigers and King Tigers being 2 or more shots to kill by powerful guns (76mm to the side, 17pdr. to the front), Shermans resisting many shots from dfferent AT weapons, way too high damage dropoff at "long" range etc. there are many examples of that.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 01-10-2012, 23:10:43
currently Im not responsible for any tanks and haven't been involved in their coding, so pls dont ask me why specific models behave as they do, I only gave you our high-end goals, which was more fun tanking. Im sure anyone agrees that it's better since 2.4 than before, but still needs work to become as good as it could be

Yes, and the "work" it needs it's getting 1s1k back (consistent, not the occasional we have now)... At least on "close" range (I guess close in FH 2 terms would be below 100-150 m max).

Although it's totally bullshit from a historical point of view (damage done doesn't really depend on range, if a shell penetrates it will do roughly the same damage from 50 and from 500 m) it should reward players who take risks and use tactics to flank their opponents (or those who patiently avait in a perfect ambush position for enemy to get close).

We all like prolonged tank fights, but when you are outsmarted, or outflanked you shouldn't be given a second chance for your fun's sake as this only leads to frustration and anger of the other player...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 02-10-2012, 01:10:19
Musti, LuckyOne, Shitmaker, Kwiot are all long time players you see every now and then on the servers. They are part of the FH2 core-community. I consider their feedback quite valuable. They all state that the current tank system is frustrating. The longer tank engagements  are nice in theory but in practise, on the public servers where those guys are around often enough, it does not work.

I can only advise to take this feedback serious.

But then you state this:

We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
Telling everyone here that the only thing somehow working in the current gun/tank system is going to be changed to the exact thing those experienced players warned you about.

well, it's quite arcadish to just click and kill anything you see.
So now you have to klick three times to finish off a tank. Right now we see tanks shooting peas at each other. It totally kills immersion if you see Shermans deflecting shot after shot or Panthers taking 76mm hits in the side. All the players see is a bounce here a bounce there. And this has nothing to do with realism, this is total arcadish.

The skill in previous versions was to find a good spot to ambush your enemy, or sneak around to flank your enemy and get off that effective shot in his flanks. - And this was realistic. This was also more realistic than Shermans standing in the middle of a field exchanging shots with Panthers in full frontal engagements just to zoom out for repairs and to come back 30 seconds later.

I´m for a poll!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: McCloskey on 02-10-2012, 01:10:47
Maybe I got something wrong there, but did Natty actually said they would nerf the AT guns as well? Why not just remove them then, for they'll be totally useless.

 ???
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 02-10-2012, 01:10:03
I think he means satchels? dunno
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-10-2012, 03:10:41
We do still have the plague of portable guns 1s1k:ing tanks.... hope we can fix that soon.
The only map I really feel the inf vs tank game play is anywhere near what it should be is in ramelle, but there it's bordering on being too extreme. In most maps you just lol at any tank and toss some zook shell at him.

Naah, the pro's with more resilient tanks outweighs any "realism" data by far.

If you really plan to bring up this bullshit, and please allow me to call it real bullshit, then I am out off this mod for sure. That's something you can bet your pants on. Infantry fight against tanks is so damn difficult and already frustrating enough as you get killed so damn fast by tanks. Why do you want to make it even harder? You really lost the sense for reality dear devs  ::)
I hope this isn't really in the pipeline  >:(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 02-10-2012, 07:10:58
Tigers and King Tigers being 2 or more shots to kill by powerful guns (76mm to the side, 17pdr. to the front), Shermans resisting many shots from dfferent AT weapons, way too high damage dropoff at "long" range etc. there are many examples of that.

Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)

sorry but..4 guys wanting tanks to be killed by 1 shot will not change the course of direction here.

Tanks survive longer on the battlefields now, and most players like this.

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?

about AT weapons I mean both portable and stationary. One-shot-kill tanks with zooks doesn't play. Also the pak's and 6pounders etc shouldnt one-shot-kill tanks, it derives from the battle dialogue that we want to get back in to the Battlefield.
However, certain parts of the tanks like the small section in the rear could ofcourse be 1s1k, just like in bf42. But a shot to the side? naah, we dont gain anything from having tanks die so fast.

We need more tread time, not more spawn-screen time
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gotkai on 02-10-2012, 08:10:56
What the hell are you talking about Natty? How many players do you know that like this system? Hundreds of posts should tell you the opposite. What are your sources? Who told you that this system is good?
All the complainments in chats while playing tell the opposite. So what are you talking about?

Making PAK´s less lethal make them close to useless. There is only one advantage of a PAK. It´s ability to hide and kill with one hit. Take the PAK 38 on Cobra between Trainstation and Crossroads as example. Completeley useless, maybe it can kill a Greyhound or a haftrack with a bit luck, but its inability to 1s1k a Sherman makes it useless on this map. The only thing your doing when you shoot a Sherman with that thing is saying: "Hi Mr. Sherman, here am I." Nothing more.

A battlefield is no place for a "battledialogue". PAK 36 was called "Panzeranklopfkanone", because it couldn´t penetrate many enemy tanks. Ask those soldiers how they feel about a battledialogue. Weapons are lethal and as such they must feel like that. Saying hello with the first shot is the wrong way. Those guys prefering this are free to play all the other egoshooters out there like Battlefield2 vanilla.

What do you gain from tanks last longer? Could work, but keep the balance between the tanks. Compare Churchills and Shermans and say that you wanted that. Hard to imagine.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 02-10-2012, 09:10:31
I would just like to say, please for the next patch on some desert maps can you include a Bren carrier with a 6-pounder stuck on top of it, just for me? :D.

Or better yet, a 25-pounder ;D?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 02-10-2012, 10:10:33
I would just like to say, please for the next patch on some desert maps can you include a Bren carrier with a 6-pounder stuck on top of it, just for me? :D.

Or better yet, a 25-pounder ;D?

Nah I want a Ratte... I mean why not, it's a tank after all! And it would surely provide a lot of "battledialogue" in between exchanging many shots with other tanks!  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 02-10-2012, 13:10:05
Thank you for your answers Natty!

Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)
Why fix something that isn´t broken? The previous tank system was very satisfying and rewarding. This work could have been spent somewhere else to continue the awesomeness of this mod.

sorry but..4 guys wanting tanks to be killed by 1 shot will not change the course of direction here.
It´s more than 4 guys... In every game I see someone call "bullshit". I think it´s very sad that the mod is going this direction.

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?
I prefer it because there is no sense whatsoever to fight on the battlefield versus tanks, outsmart them and not getting rewarded. That is boring. I fight for nothing. This has turned into Battlefield 1942 - fire shots, hit, repair, dont get points, proceed.

The time is now spent repairing and not on the spawn. And nobody gets points, except the smart people in their tanks HE-spamming infantry and ignoring tank combat.

I prefer getting points if I actually hit something and if someone outsmarted me, I fucking deserve to be back at the spawn; and he should get kills.

If you really plan to bring up this bullshit, and please allow me to call it real bullshit, then I am out off this mod for sure. That's something you can bet your pants on.
I wouldn´t say it that harsh, but I share this opinion. Way to punch your playerbase in the face and kill this mod. :(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: McCloskey on 02-10-2012, 14:10:41
Also the pak's and 6pounders etc shouldnt one-shot-kill tanks, it derives from the battle dialogue that we want to get back in to the Battlefield.

You need to realize, that the crew is vulnerable to simple bullets and HE unlike the tank it's engaging and that unlike the tank, it can be taken out by everyone on the battlefield. Imagine this: you have a stationary Pak and a Sherman... now that Sherman drives up... gets shot by the Pak first, the Sherman sprays the Pak with bullets/puts an HE in there and drives along.


Tbh all was fine when the anglemod was introduced so it stopped Panthers from getting killed by Shermans to the front. The shots from the front "deflected" and it prolonged the lifespan of the tank. Tanks that were able to deflect shots like that should possess the same feature in game. Tanks like Cromwells should be shredded to pieces if assaulting directly and NOT outflanking the enemy positions. If you keep this BS "battle dialogue" then you also take away a huge amount of not only "realism" but the creativity players have to employ to outsmart the enemy as well (not saying people would stop flanking alltogether, but why drive around the map for twice as long, if you can just waltz in right up front taking damage from all sorts of angles while blasting away like a mad man). Players' stupidity should simply be rewarded with spawnscreen time is all.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-10-2012, 14:10:17

Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?


I prefere the old 1S1K system because it forces you to work together as a team and not drive a tank as a one man army. Covering your flanks and so on while moving ...
2.4 hit this spot on with it's system, 2.45 is a step too far though. 1S1K keeps the battle dynamic and fluid and doesn't lead to camping fests. It is much more intense for me when I know that I have only one single chance. Atm I drive around with the Shermans like in a heavy tank because I know that I can stand 2 or more hits. You just have to give the player enough room to move so that the spawn die, spawn die problem doesn't occur. Totalize is a good example how this should work. It is simple as that.

Btw, to say that most players like the current system is pure arrogant and I would like to see the source you base your argumentation on. All people I talked to ingame aswell as in TS and many people here in this threat, see this system the same way: it just doesn't work and leads to ridicioulous results. It is just sad to see, that you won't change the direction of the mod for the sake of the allready spent hours. It is time for the devs to confess that the effort to change the tank system to the current one failed and learn something with this experience. Mistakes can happen, but it would be nice if some people could start to stop refusing the reality. The playerbase is shrinking or atleast stagnating and not growing every day, don't know whether you have noticed this.

Just to remind you what FH2 is about:

"Forgotten Hope 2 is an award-winning not-for-profit World War II modification for Battlefield 2TM and is based on the original Forgotten Hope, a modification for Battlefield 1942TM, one of the most popular multiplayer games ever. Battlefield 1942TM featured land, sea and air combat in a way never before seen. It was the goal of the development team to maximize the game experience by adding both a realistic and enjoyable gameplay to FH and now to FH2."

Atm it fails in terms of both things too often and the words of wisdom are "arcadish" and "frustrating".  :(

Please wake up, dear devs
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 02-10-2012, 14:10:22
Those are exaclty the things we've worked a year and a half to put in to place :)
Welp then, I guess thats it for me then, Its your decision so I'm not gonna bother arguing.
Im curious though, why do you prefer to be killed and look at the spawnscreen more and spend more time in the back bases than out in the fights?
Because If i drive a powerful tank i like to feel its power, so what you have a giant cannon that can blow up a house if enemy tanks are shell-sponges? kills all the fun , besides I prefer flanking, sneaking and out-maneuvering
my enemy rather that boring face-to-face shell-offs (Africa for example), with many-shots-to-kill its simply not rewarding.

And one last question, If I want to play a game with shell-spongy tanks why would I play FH2? Why not just lets say BF3? Because ability to one-shot a lot of stuff (tanks, infantry, planes) was the thing that sold FH2 to me.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kalkalash on 02-10-2012, 15:10:37
I think I'll chip in and bring opinion to the tank system discussion as well. I'm going to start with an event that happened the other day:

It was on Totalize and I had left the Axis base with my PzIV and was driving quite carelessly. A short distance from the base I run into a Cromwell manned by ajappat, and because I was driving all carelessly without paying attention to the surroundings, he managed to get a shot on my front plate. I'm down to three health as I shoot him back. He survives and shoots me again (to the front plate, I assume) and he bounces. I take my second shot and kill him. I proceed to hide behind a hedge and repair my tank.

Now, what is wrong with what happened? By all rights, I should have been the one dead. Ajappat shot me first and penetrated, he outsmarted me and I was careless. I should have lost. Natty, you asked why we liked staring at the spawn screen. Here's the answer: FH2 was one of the few games where losing from time to time was fun. How can losing be fun? Because you know you did everything you could, you used different tactics and you were outsmarted by someone. You lost a battle of minds, a fair battle. When you died in a tank, you weren't angry at the game, but angry at yourself for doing a stupid thing (Of course, some camper killing right as you exit the base isn't fun, but I'm talking about those normal tank-to-tank battles).

Currently, the tanking is more similar to WoT, where you sometimes penetrate, sometimes not and the damage you do varies a lot. The player doesn't get a clear indicator telling him when he is doing the right thing. There are so many hidden factors that you can't maximize your performance on a personal level. In WoT, if you happen to die, you very rarely blame yourself but you blame the game (I'm certain quite a large number WoTers can confirm this) and its mechanics. This is how I feel the tanking system works now. You now have a lot more "That is just bullshit" -moments than you had in the previous versions.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 02-10-2012, 15:10:49
our tank system is flawed, I dont disagree :) it is inconsistent and doesnt provide nearly as interesting / tactical / fun / exciting combat as tanks should. I agree to the fullest.

However, 1S1K is not the solution. To clarify; medium tanks or tanks of the same class, shouldnt 1S1K each other. Obviously a Tiger with its 88 gun should 1S1K a simple Sherman from behind, leave it burning in critical state (critical state is a hardcoded state when you have less than 15% health left) shot from the side and take it down to perhaps 25% from the front...

@gotkai, no offense, you obviously arent a dev or designer. battle dialogue is what it's all about. Not when you fire a Pak40 in to a sherman rear perhaps, but we dont gain anything from it 1s1k tanks from the front. The overall combat needs to be like a conversation, where players use the environment to outmaneuver the enemy, this defines battlefield game play, not just sitting and clicking to cash in frags.

Want to participate in development discussions, use internal forum.

Follow your train-of-thought please, explain to me the game play you have in mind.. tank comes driving from mainbase, blam, dead. Why is this fun for either the AT gunner or the tank driver? Why should he look at spawn screen then wait in mainbase again? Why durate the combat a bit?

Yes: stationary guns suck, I will replace more or less all of them with mobile guns.

But how utterly stale and stiff is the game play you propose? tank dies.. respawns.. drives again... AT gunners sits and waits.... where is the fun? it just boils down to a very simple and unintuitive player interaction here. He-who-clicks-first, wins. Our dev team were all pretty much all in favor of removing this game play.

Another example: tank guards a flag, waits for attacker... what reason does he have to move when he knows that he can 1s1k a tank that approaches? is it even fun? Click-DEAD... It's much more dynamic and fun if he has to reposition, has time to repair, time to react.

If the players choices change the outcome of the game. You suggest that sitting still and click first should decide. Well, it's predictable I give you that. And very very boring.

If there extreme "bugs" or flat-out errors in our tank system, you can specify this instead or argueing "ideals"... Use exact situations (map, vehicle, situation) and we can look in to it. Is some tank invulnerable when he shouldn't be? Is some tank dying too easy?

Overall, players pick FH2 mainly for the tanks, we aren't sending them to the spawnscreen, we send them in to the battle. That's our goal. 8)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 02-10-2012, 15:10:28
@Kalkalash: best post so far, thanks! More of those please!  :)

Your situation should of course have played out so that he didn't die from your second shot, and then you'd be dead from this third.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-10-2012, 16:10:47
Natty, allow me one question please.

Why the hell should the guy who tricked his opponent by an ambush or by flanking or sneaking up wait in the spawn screen? It needs two players to have a fight! To me and many others it is only fair that the player who was careless pays the bill and not the player who made the first effort to kill him. You have hundreds of possibilties, you only have to use them. Spoting PAK's for airplanes, spotting PAK's for arty and what not else. It turns out that FH2 rewards the dumb player more than the clever one in many cases and that the fights turn out more as head-on bouncing clashes.

Kalkalash hit's it spot on btw. Blame the game and not yourself if you get killed.

And Natty, please stop this I'm-a-designer-and-you-not-nonesense. I am the player on the battlefield who desides whether the game is fun or not. And why is the post by Kalkalash the best post so far btw? We tried to explain the problem for you in many, many posts, sometimes more detailed and sometimes not. He didn't post anything new that wasn't allready told. He only supports our argumentation.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 02-10-2012, 16:10:58
Nice post Kalakash, with one addition. In WoT you can still get one shot kills with an appropriately sized tank gun and with hitting the right spot (harder than in FH2 as there is more random deviation). While in FH 2 tanks are mostly coded with homogenous armor, so that even if you hit the "right spot" that should exist you still do the same damage as hitting any other area on the same side.

And of course, there's the module damage... Something that we don't really have in FH 2. That's why in my opinion we shouldn't be moving towards this kind of gameplay... As we will never get it as good as WoT. Whereas with the old 2.4 system FH 2 provided an unique tanking experience, where stealth, spotting, flanking and communication mattered more than being the luckier (or heavier) tank.

The solution that could please both sides could be making tank gameplay on closer ranges play out like in 2.4 (without the silly bugs) that would reward going in close (although with a much bigger risk of being quickly killed if spotted) and laying ambush, while on longer ranges we could keep the current scaled down system that would encourage maneuvering and discourage long range base camping. Something I believe the devs tried to accomplish, but it went totally in the wrong extreme of tanks surviving 88 close range hits and similar "weird" situations.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 02-10-2012, 18:10:20
You said Natty that you want to make tank battles longer. So how can you explain that standard Sherman can shoot Tiger with 2 shots from the side? Also Sherman surviving Panther or Tiger shots can be acceptable but only at long ranges (like it was in 2.4 I think).
Yesterday I saw such situation: Panther with side skirts vs. normal Sherman - distance 50 - 100m:
1. Panther shot first to Sherman front - penetration, but Sherman survived - I think it took sth like 50% of his armor
2.Sherman shot back to Panthers side with 90 degree angle - penetration
3. Panther shot again - I think tanker made mistake and shot Shermans turret (don't know why it is so powerfull, probably because round shape and angle damage system), but Sherman survived. But for sure there was penetration.
4.Sherman shot again to Panther's side and it's destroyed.

So Sherman makes the same damage like in previous versions, but Panther needs 3 shots to destroy it...
And the distance was quite close...

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 02-10-2012, 19:10:23
To clarify: I'm in this thread only because there is no other dev presence.

@5hitm... his post was good because it was ingame experience. Tell us what happens, and what you like / dont like about it, then we can make decisions based on those. Posting mathematical tables, diagrams and Wikipedia links do not produce any results.
Also, the designer stuff.. I dont mean knowledge/skill here. I mean work/collecting feedback/running the service... You're probably more knowledgable about FH2 tanks than me, but I need to think about a whole lot of things you as player don't care about. You come at it from a players perspective, and tbh sometimes put too much emotions in to it... it's just a game, and we're here to try and make it fun. We use feedback to make it more fun.

@LuckOne: problem in a nutshell with FH2 tanks is that there are way, way too many variables. It's quite impossible even for the most savant freak to learn all possible outcomes from a tank duel. That leads to too many "WTF" moments, either you die, or you cant hurt your enemy, or else.
Tank combat reminds a bit about RTS game play, you really are involved in a micro-game with the opponent, and I agree with 5hitmaker that a player who plans his moves, use terrain etc should be rewarded, but not to the point that that's the only valid choice. We had that, and the one who camped best, won. Just sitting and waiting for enemy hull to appear and send him to spawnscreen.. + the driving distance from mainbase on most maps... It lead to dull game play. Im talking about 2.3 and older patches here.

Kwiot: good examples. Those type of scenarios is something we can work with.

So: Please try to outline what you like about our current system and what you dont like
What was good in 2.4 but turned worse?
What was bad in 2.4 and turned good?

How can we reward players that learn the tanks and the maps, but still keep it simple enough so normal players can engage in tank combat without studying microscopic details and ammotypes?
How can we make consistency increase predictability, so by learning the tanks, you can easier know the outcome of a battle? (Like Kwiot when the Panther engaged the Sherman)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 02-10-2012, 20:10:38
Well I thought I had outlined it much in the previous posts in this thread.

I even put a screenshot where my Tiger 1 tank survived a close distance shot from a Sherman Firefly. I also needed more than one shot to kill that weakly armoured tank with my massive Tiger gun.

So the improvements from 2.4 in regards to tank combat so far:
The prolonged combat make tank roles become more apparent, and infantries now interact with tanks more.
I love the new sound effects when getting hit.
The ambience noise cooler now.
The new gun sounds! They add more variety, but remains great, unlike FH1 which varieties just reduces its realism.

The minus parts:
Tanks have no characteristics now, Fireflies aren't problem solver, Tigers and Panthers just don't feel scary. You should consider giving 1S1K ability to certain tanks for sure.
While taking minor damage from grenades is realistic somewhat, it should be noted that tank shells should be equally more effective against oppositions. *cough*panzer 2's 20mm*cough*
Randomness can be fun, but it is not when you have to encounter it for nunmerous times.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 02-10-2012, 20:10:34
Randomness could be fun indeed, but it can't break the rationalism line...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-10-2012, 21:10:02
Pro's in 2.45:

-the Hetzer and the PIII verions got improved. Panzergranate finaly makes some damage. This was worse in 2.4.
-tanks don't get killed with a frontal shot to the tracks anymore
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

Con's in 2.45:

-all TD have too weak guns especialy M10, M36 and the Marder and StuG
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
-Biggest flaw for me is the deviation of the shells. I would completely remove this "feature"
-2pdr and PAK 40 are too weak in general
-The aiming system of the Jagdpanzer IV needs a tweak
-the Cromwell is still as bugged as in 2.4

That's all for now. Hope this is a good list with things to take a look at.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 02-10-2012, 22:10:03
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-10-2012, 22:10:12
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 03-10-2012, 00:10:10
-the Hetzer and the PIII verions got improved
How?
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed
Describe how they feel in their armor, or how it should feel when they get killed
-all TD have too weak guns especialy M10, M36 and the Marder and StuG
weak, meaning?
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
In what way?
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
Deathtraps, meaning it's too easy for tanks to lob shells at you and kill you?
What would more power solve? they wouldn't be harder to kill just because they deal more damage.
-Biggest flaw for me is the deviation of the shells. I would completely remove this "feature"
Can you give me an example?
-2pdr and PAK 40 are too weak in general
Is this a duplicate statement?
-The aiming system of the Jagdpanzer IV needs a tweak
Explain
-the Cromwell is still as bugged as in 2.4
Bugged, how?


Yea it's a good list, but as you see, design is harder than that.... you really need to clarify exactly what you mean. Please go ahead.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Surfbird on 03-10-2012, 00:10:35
I'm not gonna outline good and bad, but I thought about the theme again, drove a bit around in tanks today and got some stuff to say that might be be interesting nevertheless:

1. As some people are exaggerating a bit it sounds like there is no 1s1k at all anymore but that is not true. There is still 1s1k in like 60 or 70 % of cases where it should be a 1s1k without doubt, at least that is what I experienced 35 or 25% where it does not happen are the problem, and the remaining 5% of lucky bounce or whatever are fine to me, because in theory a hit could go through without disabling the tank. You can't tell me that tank crews back then turned their turret instantly to search for new targets after their first shot, without checking if the bullet has penetrated and the enemy tank is destroyed. Bad luck can always occur and I think that Natty is right that the click and boom to 100% is not the perfect way either.
So from this perspective the current system is somewhat reasonable or more like understandable, but it looks more like a failed step in development currently.

2. On the other hand, making tanks take more hits for the purpose of giving the player more time in the tank and making tanking more forgiving, is the wrong way. And that's the point where basically everyone here agrees on. The joy of tanking does not come to people by making it less challenging and more forgiving. I think players want the challenge - I personally have no problem when I die in a tank because I know that this is always the danger and that when it happens it happens for a reason.

Conclusion
1. It's alright to have some kind of tiny luck factor involved.
2. It's not alright to make tanks take more hits to make tanking less frustrating.

The problem

For Patch 2.45 dev's seemed to concentrate more on "2." while I am sure you kept "1." in mind as well. This led to too much lucky survival of enemies which is unrealistic, does not make sense and does often not reward the risktaker, which is just sad.

My toughts/appeal:
Please think again if making tanks less vulnerable is the right way to achieve more joy at tanking, I honestly doubt it. On maps like Villers-Bocage tanking has a lot to do with mindgames and flanking as well as outsmarting the enemy tankers. In the situations I get into on a map like this I do not feel more joy because my Sherman V or Cromwell tank can take a Panther or even Tiger shot without getting blown up. It just feels wrong to me, because I know that this should not have happened.

And the Tiger or Panther driver who obviously outsmarted me is not rewarded for what he does and is most likely getting punished sooner or later because he gave away his position to more than just the one tanke he did not even kill.

Just one example of what my definition of joy at tanking is. And if you agree that the one that takes the risk should be rewarded Natty, then note that this does not fit well together with my 2. point I made, as this goes in the opposite direction and contradicts.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 03-10-2012, 01:10:28
-the Sherman has too strong armor compared to the strength of the german guns
In what way?
-All stationary guns are deathtraps. Either give them more power (that would be my solution), or give more aditional mobile guns
Deathtraps, meaning it's too easy for tanks to lob shells at you and kill you?
What would more power solve? they wouldn't be harder to kill just because they deal more damage.

Considering both problems, the Sherman having to much armour protection and the uselessness of anti tank guns, especially the Pak40 this video tells you more then 1000 words. If you seriously are going to tell me the Pak gunner should have lost that engagement I think we will never ever reach some common ground. Stronger anti tank guns don´t prevent the gun from being destroyed, but it gives it the possibility to actually ambush tanks and cause a threat. This silly engagemetn in the video wouldn´t have happened if the gun actually packed a punsh.

The video was obviously made in the 2.45 Italy event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgJ7PPFrtU&feature=relmfu#t=1m00s

Range? No.
Angle? No.
Realistic? No.

Three hits on a paper tank not finishing it off. Please explain me how that happened or how thats - in case this is intentional - is any fun?

Seriously ... just wtf is going on with FH2?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-10-2012, 02:10:41
@Natty: I explained most of these problems often enough and detailed enough and it doesn't take much imagination to get the problem.

One example for you:

Random deviation: the trajectory of your shot is not predictable. It is easy at that. Too much exaggeration how the shells fly. I can't even hit the same spot at 50 metre, though I don't change my aiming. Good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ5yqEyLciI
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 03-10-2012, 07:10:56
design takes more than "imagination".... please answer all the questions I made, otherwise Im not sure you actually put more thought in to this.. is it just "emotions" we're talking about here?

The video you made.... what's the problem? You're killing a sherman from the front with 2 shots most of the times, sometimes even 1 shot? Also why do you have the sight so low? You wouldn't play like that.

Do the same video with the sight where you'd have it while playing.

Good example though. I would design that specific example so that the Sherman on the 2nd shot was brought down to "critical" aka be burning, red etc.

Look at it like this: It's always better to "almost die" than to "just die". IE: say a Sherman has 1000 HP, it's better that each shot from the front delivers 450 HP in damage than 500. With 450 he will be down to 100 HP, burning/red and need to retreat and repair (if he is less than 5 seconds away from cover)
From the side, I'd give each shot 700 damage there, so he'd be very damage from one, and dead for sure on the 2nd.

Deviation: OK agreed, that was your point, but your video displayed more drop than deviation right? I agree that tank shells shouldnt deviate like a MG or SMG, but shouldnt be lazer-cannons either.

So to summarize: Tank combat needs to be more consistent and predictable. You should be rewarded by learning different tank-variants and to shoot at enemies on certain parts of the tanks, but the granularity we currently have is too "noisy" AKA too many small parts containing different materials, make it impossible to aim at certain parts. Agreed?
A tank should be divided in to: Front, Side, Back, Turret, Tracks. Have different material/properties on all these, and that's enough to create interesting tank combat.
Also: deviation needs to go, instead a slight more bullet-drop on ranges needs to happen. FH2 is scaled a lot down, so I would start the drop at 300m and have it gradual (not a quick drop). Then also add a damage reduction at ranges, so your tank becomes powerful at close ranges. I totally agree that if you drive up to an enemy tank, or encounter someone around the corner, it feels way cooler to one-shot him than to stand like monster-trucks and bang your head against eachother. On very close ranges (0-30m) I would even accept the PZIV 1s1k the Sherman from the front and vice versa. These are 'holy fuck' moments where you just panic-shoots and the outcome is expected from both parties.

Also consider visual spectrum. A tank on close range covers more of your screen, so you need to aim (move the turret) more to change the aim. EX: drive around the corner and see enemy tank standing at 45degrees facing you. Your turret is accidentally pointing straight at his frontal armor. In order to change this sight you need a good second to place the aim on his side instead. Do you take this chance? or do you fast fire straight in to his front? The front-hit can make him survive, but the side-shot will surely kill him at this range.
Those types of choices need to be clear, it really isnt more complicated than that.

On longer ranges, where the enemy is just covering perhaps 100x60 pixels on your screen, you really arent interested in small parts of the tank armor. It's enough to know if you hit the side, the tracks, the turret, the front or the back. The calculations you're doing shouldnt have more variables than:
Range: 300m, affecting aim with slight bullet-drop (need to aim just a bit above) perhaps on 300m the drop is 5-10 pixels on your screen, not more.
Speed: the enemy tank is moving, so need to calculate this also
Tank-area: you want to hit him in the side, but if you aim bad the shots can still hit his front, or the turret, or tracks.
Damage-reduction: is slight, since you dont know exactly how far away he is, this is the only real "randomness" you need. Is he on 2-shot-kill distance, or is he at 2-shots-will-make-him-criticallly-damaged distance? If you place your shot perfectly.
Also: ammo type, what ammo is loaded?
Lastly: how is he feeling? currently it's hard to tell on an enemy tank what state he is in.. is he 100% healthy, or already took a shot from some infantry? This will ofcourse change the outcome of your battle as well. (I'm currently working up a system that will tell you better what state the enemy tanks are in)

All these above, do you really need more granularity than this to create fun tanking in FH2?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 03-10-2012, 10:10:16
No, no Natty we actually like the "randomness" sometimes, but the truth is, it doesn't work in FH 2. As the tanks suffer no actual penalties from being hit.

I'll post the official tank mechanics guide for Men of War (yes I know it's a RTS even if it does provide the option for the player to control the vehicles directly, but it shows how randomness can work out, provided there are other mechanics to supplement it, namely in MoW: module disabling, crew stun, crew damage, ammo storage explosions etc.) In total there are over 1000 different sort of combinations that can happen in MoW.

Here's a short paragraph on how it works:
Quote
For instance, a Tiger shooting at a Stuart will cause a:
100% chance of damaging the hull
100% chance of destroying the hull
90% chance of damaging the turret when penetrating the turret
9 seconds crew stun time when penetrating the hull
40% chance to kill the charger when penetrating the hull
25% chance to kill gunner when penetrating the hull
100% chance kill driver when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill commander when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill AA-mgunner when penetrating the hull

Quote
And a Tiger shooting at an IS-2 will cause a:
20% chance of damaging the hull
35% chance of destroying the hull
70% chance of damaging the turret when penetrating the turret
6 seconds crew stun time when penetrating the hull
30% chance to kill the charger when penetrating the hull
25% chance to kill gunner when penetrating the hull
100% chance kill driver when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill commander when penetrating the hull
25% chance kill AA-mgunner when penetrating the hull

Quote
Of course all this comes together with whether a shell will penetrate a tank in first place, depending on the enemy tanks armor, your tanks gun strength and penetration table, as well as impact angle of the projectile.

Obviously we can't even remotely replicate this kind of system in FH 2, so a more simple system you described in your post would be better suited for FH 2.

But currently I think the biggest issue, as has been said in numerous posts of mine and others, and as you concluded  is the close range damage. It's just ridiculous for 2 tanks to stand 200 feet between each other and plink shells back and forth, when such situation should mostly be clear instantly (flanking attack or a good shot in the less armoured part of the vehicle by a superior gun).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 03-10-2012, 13:10:32
60 meters is quite far in Battlefield 2 though.. you'd be surprised how far away that looks in-game

But I get your point :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-10-2012, 15:10:46
Natty it seems that you understood most parts, but you failed at the most improtant part.

You ask me why I aim so low? Because I am aiming for a weak spot, infact when the shell hits the nose of the hull - there you will have the best chance of a kill as there is the slope not so heavy. As you see it works sometimes (when I 1S1K the Sherman). For your information: ofcourse I would aim so low and search for the weakspot ingame. As I do it with every other tank. A newby wouldn't do that, but after some practice he would do the same.

So what's the problem: you said it yourself. Sometimes I kill it with 1 shot and sometimes with 2 shots. Why is it like that? ->because the trajectory of the shell is not predictable. Even when I am standing still, take my time and the target isn't moving. The shell as spread around the center point, but this is totaly nonesense. In Darkest Hour or RO I can hit a tank over ranges of 500m or more (let it be 1000m) spot on on the same spot over and over again. Thus I can predict to aim for a certain part of a tank to kill it instantly. The guns in DH aren't like laser cannons btw. The trajectory is like a parabola. In case I missed a shot (what can and happen ofcourse), I can adjust my aim. I can even disable certain parts of the tanks piece by piece.

Problem in FH2: I like the fact that we can have such detailed tank models where certain parts and materials can influence the outcome of a battle. But in FH2 it is random. I can't predict, if I will hit material A with the first shot and do it with the second shot and not just accidently hit material B. As you mentioned it, the shell spreads more like a MG or SMG. The most extreme case of this are the cannon of the Jagdpanzer IV and the Pershing. I couldn't drive the Pershing but the gun was working and I tested it.
There are two other problems connected with this aswell. The tanks are sliding on the ground and the recoil of the tank cannon pushes the tank backwards after a shot. The tanks aren't heavy enough so that they don't move while firing the cannon.

Why is this so important for me as a player? Because it influences whether I survive a fight or not -> fun vs. frustration. This example in my video fits very well. If I don't kill the Sherman, because I have badluck and the shell spreads, he will kill me with one shot to the turret as my weakspot is bigger and easier to hit. This is a example, how FH2 works. It is very detailed, but that's how we players think.

I hope that clearifies the problem. A solution for the sliding would be do make seperate positions for the gunner and the driver as you did it for the PAK's. But I guess this will not gonna happen. If you don't want to tank together with someone you can atleast switch the postion and the tank won't slide around that much.

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 03-10-2012, 17:10:54
aha!
I understand your post and agree with it.

Learning weak spots, yes.
Deviation on tankshells, no... did we have this before? I never knew we added this, makes zero sense.

Your target was still and at 100m (or?) in reality he would be moving and you would be moving also, so you'd have "deviation" even if we turned it off. Being skilled and place a shot on weak areas should be rewarded, I totally agree.

Deviation and angleMod just screws with this. What's the point of learning all the weakspots if anglemod just screws with the damage all the time anyway? When it does work, that is.

I'm getting a clearer picture of what you like and dont like here, posts like that is valuable. thx.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 03-10-2012, 17:10:27
My comments on that last video:
Each shoot makes your whole tank shake, so that you have to readjust aim everytime.
A horizontal difference of just 0.1 degree between shots leads to a 8.7cm difference on the impact location after 50m.
It´s a rounded hull where the angled armour plates from top and bottom meet, so it´s a small spot for a head on hit. So I would never expect to cause exactly the same damage each time on that distance.
Considering all the other factors that realistically would also influence this, I like what I see there.

The only problem is then the panther dying easily by the shermans gun, when the large weak spot gets hit.
Thats a thing we can look into to make it less weak, or reduce size to make it harder to hit. But also here you have to consider if that just happens when engaging pros. I am a tank noob and don´t know where the weak spots are, so i would get owned no matter what tank i use. Against another tank noobs however, i get amazing intense tank battles now :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 04-10-2012, 00:10:18
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.

Strange, I don't remember that Tiger tank was a paper tank in FH 0.7... Maybe we played 2 different games?

So you can destroy Tiger with standard Sherman with 2 shots from side, but can't destroy Sherman with Panzer IV with 1 shot from side at close range... Yeah, that makes sense...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 04-10-2012, 02:10:20
Pro's in 2.45:
-German tanks feel quiet good in terms of their armor and how they can get killed

So you claim that standard Sherman shooting Tiger with 2 shots is ok?

From close distance to the side it is totaly right. Was the same in FH0.7.

Strange, I don't remember that Tiger tank was a paper tank in FH 0.7... Maybe we played 2 different games?

So you can destroy Tiger with standard Sherman with 2 shots from side, but can't destroy Sherman with Panzer IV with 1 shot from side at close range... Yeah, that makes sense...  ::)
I wasn't talking about the armor of Sherman tanks. I said and please listen carfully "German tanks feel good in terms of their armor and how many shots they can take". You have to stay on the point while arguing and not mixing Tiger-vs.-Sherman with Sherman-vs.-PIV . The Sherman is coded too strong without a doubt, or atleast the german guns are to weak - it must be one of those possibilities. The Tiger was down in FH0.7 with two or three shots to the side by a normal 75 mm Sherman from close distance. Quite similar to the armor values we have now. The difference is, that the german tanks had really powerful guns in classic FH, as I would expect them to work. On the other hand do the allied teams have more tanks in general. But all this is history ofcourse. Just would like to get back this pattern.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: McCloskey on 04-10-2012, 13:10:24
Kwiot is an axis fanboi, disregard his posts ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 04-10-2012, 18:10:43
Of course if your playing Axis everything you say is invalid, but if your playing Aliied mainly thats okay for your arguments or what?
But of course ieverything is axis bias in here.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 04-10-2012, 19:10:24
anyone can switch team when he likes
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Knitschi on 04-10-2012, 19:10:24
I like the current tank system better than the old one. The only thing that feels wrong to me is the power of the 88mm gun on middle ranges (200m). IMO it still should 1s1k a sherman or cromwell at this distance. But in general I like it that you have a chance to survive longer in the weaker tanks.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 04-10-2012, 19:10:31
The other thread is locked. And now? Is the mod going to go the same road it did with the latest version? Are you actually taking the feedback into account? I didn´t mean to start a flamewar (although I obviously could count on that) and I apologize for that. But I don´t think we have to say "Yes and Amen" to everything going on, that´s what feedback is for. - The developers have of course the last word on this - but don´t wonder about shrinking player numbers then.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 04-10-2012, 19:10:02
Feedback is taken into consideration, especially concerning bugged hitboxes like the Cromwell etc. I can't speak for the devs, but from what they posted on here I don't think they will go back to the 2.4 system, that will simply not happen. But knowing Kev he will probably keep fine tuning the system here and there.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 04-10-2012, 20:10:15
it's not just kev. the whole team is involved, don't worry  8)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: FatJoe on 04-10-2012, 20:10:08
The other thread is locked. And now? Is the mod going to go the same road it did with the latest version? Are you actually taking the feedback into account? I didn´t mean to start a flamewar (although I obviously could count on that) and I apologize for that. But I don´t think we have to say "Yes and Amen" to everything going on, that´s what feedback is for. - The developers have of course the last word on this - but don´t wonder about shrinking player numbers then.

Just so there isn't a doubt on it..

Yes, we do take feedback into account, though some of us seem to disregard it and argue against it, we do take feedback into account, of course, and we value it. When you spot something you don't like, we're counting on you, all of you, our players and fans, to give us feedback. If we're doing something that a lot of people don't like, then we obviously should take another look at it.

That doesn't mean we will look into every single complaint. We can't. We're trying to satisfy as many as we can, including ourselves as developers and as players. But we will never ever make everyone happy, it's impossible. However when enough people complain about something, we do try to take a second look at it, look at the feedback and ask ourselves, what's going on and what can we do.

And that's what we're doing.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: FatJoe on 04-10-2012, 20:10:05
Please keep the feedback going, describe what is bothering you in game, what seems off, inaccuracies and so on's.. The

But keep it on topic and keep in mind our forum rules, especially this one:
Please be considerate in your posting and treat other users with respect.

Thanks
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 05-10-2012, 06:10:13
Yes, I hope you guys don't lose interest over the mindless complaints and rants going on for the latest release.

We know it takes a lot of time to specifically identify the cause and experiment with the fixes. But in the mean time, I guess we'll enjoy the gameplay as it is, as the new sound effects is way cooler than before (might be the major improvements of FH2.45 over the FH2.4).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gunnerz on 05-10-2012, 12:10:32
The thing is that we dont need randomness wich turns an advantage into a disadvantage.

Enemy Churchill vs StuG with normal 75mm AP rounds. He didnt see me at all, but this wasnt rewarded.
Ive shoot the churchill 4 times at the side hull from aprox 300mtrs, and then he turned towards me and killed me with a few hits to the frontal armour.

Flanking, aiming for weak spots, using your vehicle advantage should be rewarded.








Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 05-10-2012, 13:10:40
The thing is that we dont need randomness wich turns an advantage into a disadvantage.

Enemy Churchill vs StuG with normal 75mm AP rounds. He didnt see me at all, but this wasnt rewarded.
Ive shoot the churchill 4 times at the side hull from aprox 300mtrs, and then he turned towards me and killed me with a few hits to the frontal armour.

Flanking, aiming for weak spots, using your vehicle advantage should be rewarded.

I had the same experience on Alam Halfa. Perfect spot for shoting the german tanks into the flank, but I needed like five shots to the side of a Panzer IV with a 2pdr since it was just too far away and ofcourse the enemy tank will notice you after some shots. The problem is that at such ranges the shots of weaker guns compared to side armor get really useless. You can't really get that close especialy on NA maps. When you shot from 50 metre this tactic might work but not over more than 200 metre. That's what I meant with tanking feeld like CQC.
Atm. you have to be really suicide friendly to try such tactics. I had a similar situation on Vossenack yesterday. I was standing in the flank of a Jagdpanther (perfect spot to finish it off) not that far, but ofcourse the Jagdpanther was only burning. Luckily he made a 180 degree turn and didn't notice me so I could give him the second shot. Against an expierenced tanker I would have been killed. But I think it shows the problem very well. I don't want to win such a situation with luck, I want to rely on my knowledge and skills.
You end up as fastfood quiet often if you try to flank a stronger tank to kill it from the side. One of my most favorite maps of 2.4, to be precise Mount Olympus suffers the most under this problem. It was so much fun in 2.4 to troll the PIII's using the terrain with the very agile Cruiser.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-10-2012, 18:10:55
Indeed maps like Alam Halfa and other early war (desert) scenarios suffer the most from the reduced damage, as the ammo count on some tanks (like the Semovente) isn't quite enough to be useful for a long time. And the paper British tanks (although some are still bugged because of the weird angles and collision meshes) suffer a lot from not being able to pull off decent flanking kills.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: muratti on 05-10-2012, 20:10:49
something very important to look at is tank armor values. some of the tanks are way to high above their original armor thickness. the one that is overly armord is the panther which has 120mm front armor. thats double the amount it should have. some allied tanks have this too it would be good to look at it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-10-2012, 20:10:55
They have more armor because their plates are sloped. That's also the case for some Shermans for example.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-10-2012, 20:10:01
They have more armor because their plates are sloped. That's also the case for some Shermans for example.

Indeed but isn't 120 mm still the wrong value? Shouldn't it be 83 mm at 55˙ i.e. closer to 100 mm? Or is it for balancing reasons some values are a bit "tweaked"?

EDIT: I vaguely remember we already had a similar discussion about this (or something similar) but I can't really remember what the conclusion was...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-10-2012, 21:10:57
You'd have to ask Kev, he crunched the numbers on this.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 05-10-2012, 21:10:47
Indeed maps like Alam Halfa and other early war (desert) scenarios suffer the most from the reduced damage, as the ammo count on some tanks (like the Semovente) isn't quite enough to be useful for a long time. And the paper British tanks (although some are still bugged because of the weird angles and collision meshes) suffer a lot from not being able to pull off decent flanking kills.

I wonder what British tanks are paper in Africa...  ::) For me, Africa is Allied armor bias... Ah, I remember when I could stood with Panzer IV on Superchange in one place and shoot everything... Somebody managed to shoot me after 40 kills... Now it's impossible...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Slayer on 05-10-2012, 22:10:31
Ah, I remember when I could stood with Panzer IV on Superchange in one place and shoot everything... Somebody managed to shoot me after 40 kills...
Yeah. like that was a good thing...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 06-10-2012, 00:10:14
Indeed maps like Alam Halfa and other early war (desert) scenarios suffer the most from the reduced damage, as the ammo count on some tanks (like the Semovente) isn't quite enough to be useful for a long time. And the paper British tanks (although some are still bugged because of the weird angles and collision meshes) suffer a lot from not being able to pull off decent flanking kills.

I wonder what British tanks are paper in Africa...  ::) For me, Africa is Allied armor bias... Ah, I remember when I could stood with Panzer IV on Superchange in one place and shoot everything... Somebody managed to shoot me after 40 kills... Now it's impossible...  ::)
I have seen alot of people doing that with german tanks, but very few with allied ones. From the first day of FH2 till now

There is only 1 guy who can do that with both allied and german tanks with equal effectivness because he actually joins both teams (he is a 762 admin)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 06-10-2012, 01:10:27
Maybe it's just me, but I generally find the tanks of the enemy to be way more powerful than that of the nation I'm driving tanks for :D.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: muratti on 06-10-2012, 01:10:24
They have more armor because their plates are sloped. That's also the case for some Shermans for example.

yes the armor is slope but that does not mean you should increase the armor value. let the angle mod calculate that.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 06-10-2012, 01:10:44
They have more armor because their plates are sloped. That's also the case for some Shermans for example.

yes the armor is slope but that does not mean you should increase the armor value. let the angle mod calculate that.

angle mod does not work like that. It only drops the damage to zero if the shot hits above a certain angle.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: muratti on 06-10-2012, 02:10:23
is it that simple? so it does not calculate the armor/angle and then decrease the penetration/damage?

It still is not right to increase the armor because of the angle because you dont always shoot from 0 degrees.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 06-10-2012, 02:10:50
Yes it is that simple. And if they wouldn't increase the armor, the angle wouldn't feature in at all.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 06-10-2012, 12:10:23
Maybe it's just me, but I generally find the tanks of the enemy to be way more powerful than that of the nation I'm driving tanks for :D.

I know what you mean, but there are some examples where some guns are too weak. If I drive a tank with a 6pdr or a 75mm like on El Alamein for example, I have no problem with engaging the enemy tanks. Same as when I play El Alamein on the german side. But if I take a tank with a 2pdr to flank my enemies and give them hell, it feels like wasted ammunition.  ;D

@Theta: I can asure you that Unique will wipe your butt on a 1 on 1 server as well. He doesn't need a cheat to see and kill you.  ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 06-10-2012, 13:10:25
@Theta: I can asure you that Unique will wipe your butt on a 1 on 1 server as well. He doesn't need a cheat to see and kill you.  ;D

Funnily enough I had a better score than unique for half the round yesterday, and then crashed which totally pissed me off... When I came back he had already surpassed my previous score by more than half...

I had quite a few weird experiences (on Op. Cobra) like my M10 bouncing (completely, no damage whatsoever) 2 (as in two) Panther shots, and my 76(W) Sherman surviving a Stug shot from < 5 m (was a frontal shot, but whatever). Most of my shots aimed to the Panther's cupola side killed it instantly, so I guess flanking still works even with the new system, you just need a good angle, and no lag/weird hit detection (and a bit of luck).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: muratti on 06-10-2012, 17:10:28
Yes it is that simple. And if they wouldn't increase the armor, the angle wouldn't feature in at all.

the panther front armor is at 55degree 80mm thick, so if I would shoot the panther front at 55degree angle with a 76 sherman I dont think the armor would still be 120mm which makes it way to strong.

So if the angle mod does not work like I thought it was then you have to find a way to make angled armor not overpower because you cant say that we always shoot at 0 degrees into the armor. a middle path between the actual armor and efectieve armor at 0 degrees. for the panther that would be 90mm front armor for example.
this is not just for the panther btw but for any other tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 07-10-2012, 13:10:51

@Theta: I can asure you that Unique will wipe your butt on a 1 on 1 server as well. He doesn't need a cheat to see and kill you.  ;D
He can cause quite the fuzz tough on the team he fighting against...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 08-10-2012, 01:10:17
I don't know what it is with that guy. He's obscenely good in a tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-10-2012, 01:10:21
Yeah, because he does nothing different than tanking and knows the maps like the back of his hand. He can't hit anything with a rifle and he flew like 20 seconds in over thousend hours and then never again. He never killed someone with a handgrenade btw. Thatswhy he is so good in a tank.  ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 08-10-2012, 05:10:57
He never killed someone with a handgrenade btw.

:D.

Wish he would teach me some tricks.. I'd kill to be half as good as him in a tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 08-10-2012, 06:10:16
@Theta: I can asure you that Unique will wipe your butt on a 1 on 1 server as well. He doesn't need a cheat to see and kill you.  ;D

Funnily enough I had a better score than unique for half the round yesterday, and then crashed which totally pissed me off... When I came back he had already surpassed my previous score by more than half...

I had quite a few weird experiences (on Op. Cobra) like my M10 bouncing (completely, no damage whatsoever) 2 (as in two) Panther shots, and my 76(W) Sherman surviving a Stug shot from < 5 m (was a frontal shot, but whatever). Most of my shots aimed to the Panther's cupola side killed it instantly, so I guess flanking still works even with the new system, you just need a good angle, and no lag/weird hit detection (and a bit of luck).

Confirmed on the M10. In Op:Cobra map, a Stug shot bounced of my frontal armour, doing no damage. Could be the angle mod effect, because the Stug is shooting from downhill near the train station, hitting me at a very steep angle.

I killed the Stug before being flanked by a Panther and instantly killed with 1 shot.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 08-10-2012, 09:10:55
zoologic, you killed the stug with 1 shot on its frontal armor?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 08-10-2012, 10:10:35
On Lebisey, I positioned a PAK38 in a shrub to conceal it as I shot at 2 Shermans approaching me from the slope.

I got 2 shots to the front and another 2 to the side, granted one was at a weird angle, but one was spot on 90o... Sherman didn't even smoke. It finally located me and destroyed my gun.
 
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-10-2012, 14:10:19
zoologic, you killed the stug with 1 shot on its frontal armor?

I bet he took the HVAP and killed it with one shot. Nothing special and in my opinion absolutley right. He relies on this first deadly shot otherwise he is dead. You can kill a StuG even with the normal 76mm Sherman from close distance.

Though the M10 and is damage is very dependend on the angle. In the following screenshot you can see a situation where I shot a Panther (red circle) with the HVAP into it's side armor, while he was hiding behind the hedge on the other side of the road. The angle wasn't that steep, nevertheless was the dealt damage not enough to kill it. I got shot in return.

http://s1089.photobucket.com/albums/i359/5hitm4k3r/Forgotten%20Hope%202/?action=view&current=M10vsPanther.jpg

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 08-10-2012, 17:10:35
eh, what? 1s1k on the stug front, no way.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 08-10-2012, 17:10:59
Depends. I've 1S1K a skirted Stug with a Sherman from front, not sure if it was even a 76mm.
I think it was a well placed shot in a lower section or other. If its realistic and there are a few such spots, I think its reasonable, but if not, yer, that's a bug...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 08-10-2012, 17:10:28
The StuG is probably have damaged anyway, who knows? Because it has wondered so far from its original spawn position (the train station), perhaps there are some infantries firing Bazooka at it or another tank fighting with it.

Indeed I fired a HVAP shells at its frontal armour, dead on. He was down the hill, I was at the top, move forward a little, have my aim adjusted and boom! He died.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-10-2012, 19:10:37
eh, what? 1s1k on the stug front, no way.

Why not? I know that you want to have a battledialog, but the M10 is a tank destroyer. You know what this means? Light armored, fast and agile, with a strong cannon and suitable ammunition (HVAP). That's the charm of playing such a tank. It has it's own role. The M10 relies on his strong cannon, otherwise it is a deathtrap. Please don't make every tank feel like each other. I want to feel the difference while playing an M10 and an M4A1 with a 76mm.

If you guys want to 1s1K a StuG IV with full HP from the front, you will need a 76mm or stronger. The 75mm wil never kill a StuG from the front with one shot. I tested it often enough and I am 100% sure about this case.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 08-10-2012, 20:10:19
Why not?
Because the game becomes better if you need 2 shots

Played FH1? Stug was perfect there
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 08-10-2012, 21:10:23
Where I don´t get the picture: You want the tank battles to last longer, so paper Shermans take more hits. But then why in gods name do Hetzers get damaged frontally by about just everything. Those things were impenetrable frontally to 76mms up to 300m. Yet in FH2 76mm and even 57mms and Bazookas damage them frontally. If you want tank battles to last longer give the Hetzer at least its correct frontal armor.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-10-2012, 21:10:52
Why not?
Because the game becomes better if you need 2 shots

Played FH1? Stug was perfect there

Do you need 2 shots on the M10 with the StuG? Certainly not ...

If you shoot with a HVAP at it, it is totaly OK. It is interesting for the player to choose the type of ammunition according to the situation and available targets. As a player you will ask yourself several questions while driving the M10:

1. Do I have a proper postion?
2. Do I risk two shots with normal AP shell to save the better ammunition for stronger targets like the Panther?
3. Will I hit every shot so I wont get killed? (If you don't have more than one HVAP round for example)

There is no need to change this. Or you make the M10 a 2S1K aswell, but this will just feel odd if you ask me. As I said, it needs two tanks to have a fight.

There is no sense in comparing FH2 with FH 0.7. I could kill StuG with two shots to it's front with a normal 75mm Sherman aswell, same as we have it now. The difference is, that we had no different types of ammunition for one tank. This is the essence of tanking in FH2. Why do you want to change something, that makes it extremely interesting? Special ammunition is rare and limited per tank, so you still have to use it wisely and not blast every target you see with it. Please don't touch this.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Oberst on 08-10-2012, 23:10:02
In my opinion we dont need to go back strait to the 1s1k system we had in the past.
But whats the biggest difference between then and now is the range-damage modifier, which causes the longer tank fights. I think the purpose of this system now forces you to make a decision. Either to fight the enemy tank, you have seen now, or use cover, tactics... to get closes to it, to make a 1s1k. Nearly noone does this decision, because of lack of feedback what happened and how much damage you caused or not. Especially the bigger tank battle maps feel strange this way. You still can do damage over long range, there is even a hit indicator, but it is nearly upredictable for the less experienced, how much you have damaged your opponent. This combines with some strange hits, caused by angle mod. There is no indication how far the enemy is, there are different view distances on different maps, with even different versions of the same vehicle (for example sherman 2 and 5, early and late, or panzerIIIJ with short and long barrel on one map, even panzer III wiht additional armor). In the end there is a frustrated player talking about luck is what need to kill an enemy tank.

The next thing, which is quite frustrating are some small maps. Especially tanking on maps like Lüttich or Anctoville was so special, because of those WTF-moments, where you suddenly run in an enemy tank. And you are turning your turret like an idiot, who first aims and shoots more or less properly, should deserve the kill. So the damage on close ranges should be higher, for those 1s1k should be the most usuall outcome of a battle. Maybe even the range where maximum damage is applied should be a little bit longer. If angle mod and/or bad aimed shots still cause a change of like 10-20% survivability in those situations, its OK.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 09-10-2012, 01:10:26
I really don't mind tanks taking less penalty for a hit especially a weird angled hit or frontal hit, although SOME hits should still be 1S1K, like a Sherman side shot like I did with the PAK38 should 1s1k the sucker EACH time, except if I hit the wheels or some lucky area where a shell would pass right through and miss EVERYONE

Also, a proper relative strength of tanks and armor on their various sides. For instance, if a StuG could be 1S1K from the front, depending on where you hit, good.

If not, then its a bug. And a Sherman CANNOT be tougher to kill than German tanks that were clearly more armored. Then you lose a gameplay element that is presenting players with 'expected results for an action'
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 09-10-2012, 14:10:19
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-10-2012, 15:10:32
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...

The armor hasn't get decreased in my POV. The more important thing that got changed is the ammuntion of the 75mm Sherman. It doesn't have normal AP shells anymore. Those were replaced by the stronger APCPC rounds wich have much more power.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 09-10-2012, 17:10:46
Can sb explain me why Stug's frontal armor has been decreased? Standard Sherman can take 50% of his armor at front, which is ridiculous...

The armor hasn't get decreased in my POV. The more important thing that got changed is the ammuntion of the 75mm Sherman. It doesn't have normal AP shells anymore. Those were replaced by the stronger APCPC rounds wich have much more power.

Hah, so now Shermans are more powerful than Stugs and Panzer IV...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 09-10-2012, 18:10:39
By many ways, sherman tanks where actually equal to PZIV/stugs. In some ways even superior.


People here have grown up from documentaries and stories that all german panzers where vastly superior. They everything german is vastly superior and better. I can see this simply by the way people respect things from the allies.
When a render of something allied is posted, the first thing you see often is people saying how there panzers are gonna rape it. You see dozens of people with German Avatars, sigs and such, but few with allied ones.
They kept breeding things like=An allied tank should be die when penetrated, a german one should not be

When this thread came to alive, it again showed people whining and crying about OOH MY LITTLE PANZERS CANT 1S1K ALLIED TANKS

BUT

what NONE of these guys posted, was that many allied tanks have the EXACT SAME THING GOING ON. A sherman 75mm needs 3 shots on the sides of a panther tank. A M36 Jacksons NEEDS atleast 2 shots on the side of a kingtiger. 2PDR armed tanks are back to 2.15 where the 2PDR needed 6 shots on the side to kill a Panzer 3. A 6PDR needs 3 shots on medium range for a panzer III/IV.

BUT do you see ANY of these guys? who so complain about there precious panzers, Do the same thing about the allied tanks?Nope.avi. They only care about one side. They do not care about the so called "Balance". This goes for WOT aswel. The folks there whine about german tanks being underpowerd...Wich is pure bullshit. Exept for a few examples (Jagdpanzer IV)


Maybe you guys need to Suck it up and accept the fact that german tanks wherent so powerfull as you imply they are.  If they where so almighty and powerfull, then these tanks should have wiped the floor with allied tanks. but they DINT. They got defeated. 4000 allied tanks destroyed in Normandy. 2200 German ones. Of these 4000 allied tanks, at least half got defeated by the powerfull and numorous Pak 40. Only 20% was destroyed by panzers. With 6% being from the panzerfaust and the remaining 24% or so being mines, artillery and others.
Doesnt sound almighty to me. Its a nice statistic, but one that doesnt confirm what you guys have been preaching on this forum for the past 4 years.

You wanna hear my opinion on this whole matter? revert back to the 2.4 system. Reduce some german tank numbers on some maps (IF YOU DO NOT AGREE ON THIS, THEN YOU DONT CARE ABOUT BALANCE AT ALL) and i think things should be back to normal.

As for numbers, i am reffering to maps like totalize, wich are still often an German victory(DONT COME WITH=I SAW THE ALLIES WIN YESTERDAY). On totalize, 14 allied tanks, of wich 3 have efficient guns, have to fight >11< german tanks, 7 pak 40's, around 5 Flak 88's, fausts and even FW 190's

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gunnerz on 09-10-2012, 19:10:29
I wonder if range affects the damage also ingame.
If this is the case then it explains alot.
Since a sherman can 1s1k a panther when its close etc.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 09-10-2012, 19:10:57
By many ways, sherman tanks where actually equal to PZIV/stugs. In some ways even superior.


People here have grown up from documentaries and stories that all german panzers where vastly superior. They everything german is vastly superior and better. I can see this simply by the way people respect things from the allies.
When a render of something allied is posted, the first thing you see often is people saying how there panzers are gonna rape it. You see dozens of people with German Avatars, sigs and such, but few with allied ones.
They kept breeding things like=An allied tank should be die when penetrated, a german one should not be
The usual paranoia... nobody here claimed that a german tank shouldn´t go down when penetrated. The Issue is that the front often couldn´t be penetrated by allied guns.

Maybe you guys need to Suck it up and accept the fact that german tanks wherent so powerfull as you imply they are.  If they where so almighty and powerfull, then these tanks should have wiped the floor with allied tanks. but they DINT. They got defeated. 4000 allied tanks destroyed in Normandy. 2200 German ones. Of these 4000 allied tanks, at least half got defeated by the powerfull and numorous Pak 40. Only 20% was destroyed by panzers. With 6% being from the panzerfaust and the remaining 24% or so being mines, artillery and others.
Doesnt sound almighty to me. Its a nice statistic, but one that doesnt confirm what you guys have been preaching on this forum for the past 4 years.
2200 german tanks - of which a huge part got blown up by their own crews. FH2 depicts the battles in which tanks actually fought and not the logistic part of the war.

Some got blown up by aircraft (a lot more than allied tanks - if at all).

And nearly the whole Panzerwaffe didn´t make it across the river out of the falaise pocket. That´s one operation and nearly all Panzers lost were left behind and not - and thats where FH2 takes place - lost in actual combat. "After the battle, Allied investigators estimated that the Germans lost around 500 tanks and assault guns in the pocket, and very little of the equipment that was extricated survived the general retreat across the Seine."

So congratulations on your numbers and not explaining how a very big part got lost in almost one single operation.

StuG IIIs had estimated 20.000 tank-kills at the spring of 1944... and this number is referring to a larger period of time than just the normandy campaing (some months).

I´ve also seen your vids on the shooting range where you proudly refer to the Luger as "german crap". I don´t know what it is but you seem to have a big germanophobia :P.

Edit: but I agree on the part that 2.4 tanking should come back with less german tanks, or at least no FW190 (three of them on one map is outrageous).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gunnerz on 09-10-2012, 20:10:21
''Even though the 76mm gun was a much better anti-tank weapon than the 75mm M3 gun it replaced it did not have enough power to penetrate the front of the new heavy German tanks that were seen in the ETO.

These tanks were the Tiger II and the Jagdtiger, and both had frontal armor that was well sloped and too thick for the 76mm gun to penetrate even with the APCR-T M93 projectile.
Another new German tank that was encountered in much greater numbers than either the Tiger II or the Jagdtiger was the Mk.V Panther medium tank.
The 76mm gun had problems penetrating the upper-front glacis plate of the Panther even with the M93 projectile but hits to the thinner lower front hull resulted in penetrations at almost any range with any ammo.

The front turret armor of the Panther was thick enough to stop penetrations by the APC61 and AP79 projectiles at ranges greater than 300-400m.
Hits to the side and rear of the hull and turret by the 76mm AP ammo resulted in penetrations at ranges over 2500m.

The M93 ammo could penetrate the front turret armor of the Panther at ranges over 1,500m and could penetrate the sides and rear of the hull and turret at ranges over 2,500m.
Penetrations of the front glacis plate of the Panther with the M93 ammo varied greatly due to the variation in the quality of the armor present on each Panther. Penetrations were recorded up to 800m on some vehicles whereas on others, the M93 projectile could only penetrate at ranges closer than 100m and in some cases, not at all.

The new 76mm gun had one disadvantage compared to the 75mm M3 gun, its HE shell was not as powerful. The high explosive ammunition for the 76mm contained an explosive charge of .86 lbs. compared to the 75mm HE ammunition that contained an explosive charge of 1.47 lbs. The difference in blast effect between the two rounds was fairly significant, but the 76mm HE round still remained effective against soft targets.''
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-10-2012, 20:10:49
I don't understand, how someone could actually stick to one side in this whole matter. Tbh, I can't hear Kwiots whining about German tanks anymore, because he is not basing his complains on anything valuable. The only thing I hear is "Oh what have you done to my allmighty German tanks?!?!?!?". Next to this I can't hear Theta's Germanyphobia anymore. The kill/loss numbers of all german tanks compared to the allied tanks have to say something.

That Shermans (75mm) are superior to Panzer IV's is something I would heavily argue though. Maybe in terms of their armor shape (sloped) and their numbers, but in terms of firepower the german tanks were better without a doubt. The Panzer IV can penetrate up to 30 mm more than the 75mm Sherman. In FH2 though you don't see anything of this firepower. It plays like a Sherman with weaker armor. And we are not even talking about the Panther or the Tiger.

On the other hand we have some allied problem tanks like the M10/M36 or the african tanks with 2pdr. The 6pdr is fine though. If you have problems with it then you should use it more often to get used to it. So if you want to discuss here, stay on the point and don't bring your biased POV about some tanks, because you are a team stacker who only plays Axis/Allied.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 09-10-2012, 21:10:55
@Theta:
I know that you live in such funny country like Holland or Belgium where you smoke marihuana on the breakfast, but this what you wrote it total bullshit... Read some books, articles, etc. Butcher has already explained your numbers...

For me it's quite ridiculous that standard Sherman can take out Panzer IV frontally (even without this special rounds), but Panzer IV can't do the same with it... Now even from side it's quite difficult... And where's balance?! Answer is ALLIED BIAS!!!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-10-2012, 22:10:54
@Theta:
I know that you live in such funny country like Holland or Belgium where you smoke marihuana on the breakfast, but this what you wrote it total bullshit... Read some books, articles, etc. Butcher has already explained your numbers...

For me it's quite ridiculous that standard Sherman can take out Panzer IV frontally (even without this special rounds), but Panzer IV can't do the same with it... Now even from side it's quite difficult... And where's balance?! Answer is ALLIED BIAS!!!

I made a video, where I show that it is still possible to 1S1K the Sherman from the front with the PIV H. It is only more difficult because of the deviation and the much smaller weakspots of the Sherman tank in terms of his front armor. What bothers me more is the performance of the KWK40L/48 of the PIV overall. Especialy on the side armor of Sherman tanks it is not acceptable.

ALL 75mm Shermans have APCPC rounds, so I can live with it, that I am down with one shot after this shell pierces through my 50mm strong PIV front turret. This gun and ammunition are capable of much more than 30mm btw.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gunnerz on 09-10-2012, 22:10:50
@Theta:
I know that you live in such funny country like Holland or Belgium where you smoke marihuana on the breakfast, but this what you wrote it total bullshit... Read some books, articles, etc. Butcher has already explained your numbers...

For me it's quite ridiculous that standard Sherman can take out Panzer IV frontally (even without this special rounds), but Panzer IV can't do the same with it... Now even from side it's quite difficult... And where's balance?! Answer is ALLIED BIAS!!!

Poland is more ''funny'' if you ask me.
But thanks for the complement.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 09-10-2012, 23:10:20
That Shermans (75mm) are superior to Panzer IV's is something I would heavily argue though. Maybe in terms of their armor shape (sloped) and their numbers, but in terms of firepower the german tanks were better without a doubt. The Panzer IV can penetrate up to 30 mm more than the 75mm Sherman. In FH2 though you don't see anything of this firepower. It plays like a Sherman with weaker armor. And we are not even talking about the Panther or the Tiger.
It should be noted that while the Pz IV H penetrates 110mm compared to the M4A3's 80mm, they both have the same 80mm front hull (panzer turret is 50mm, M4A3 is 80mm with 90mm mantlet).  Sherman also has 1000hp compared to 850hp (on account of thicker rear and side armour).
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 09-10-2012, 23:10:45
With all the versions of Shermans and Panzer IVs around throughout the war it´s hard to say which one was better. The Panzer IV was a design of the thirties (produced from 1937), while the Sherman was produced from 1942 onwards. This is a giant gap of five years in which the tank armies turned from tankettes into the first Medium tanks. So it´s no wonder the Panzer IV reached its limits by 1944 - yet it still performed acceptable.

Speaking about Panzer IVs in Normandy, that would usually be the "Ausf. H" with only a small number of older versions (F2/G). Shermans would be Sherman II and V mostly.

The Sherman had the edge in armour protection due to the slope and wet storage was applied. However it was common for the Panzer IVs to have sideskirts on H/J versions, which made them more resistant versus HEAT rounds. The skirts proofed troublesome in the Bocage and got stuck in trees etc. Generally the Sherman was better protected.

The armament also varied. In Normandy the short 75mm gun was the most present gun on the Sherman which excelled in the anti infantry role, but was ineffective versus tanks frontally. The Panzer IVs turret could be penetrated from far away and the front at close ranges. The german 75mm/L48 could finish off all Sherman versions of the time at further ranges. The difference in armament gives the Panzer IV the edge in my opinion. It could engage from further away despite having weaker armor protection, also optics were formadible.

The further the war went however this changed. By the fall of 1944 the Shermans were more and more armed with the long barreled 76mm gun. This gun didn´t offer the great HE capabilities of the former short barreled 75mm but performed better in the anti tank role. It was roughly comparable to the german 75mm/L48 in its performance.

By that time the Panzer IV had already reached its limit and the tank was just produced to have tanks. The "Ausf. J" was a downgrade to the "Ausf. H". Although having a bigger fuel tank it lacked a powered turret. By that time the M4A3s and Easy Eights outperformed the Panzer IVs, although the Panzer IVs still had a potent gun and could cause trouble.

To summarize it: In Normandy the Panzer IV still had the edge over the underarmed Sherman which changed in late 1944/1945.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-10-2012, 01:10:03
You hit it spot on. And Eat Uraniums conclusion shows quiet well what I am talking about. The PIV feels like a Sherman with weaker armor. But it lacks the capablity of fighting targets on long range. I played alot on the german side today and the weak TD guns of the StuG III and Marder I make it really difficult. On maps like Goodwood or Villersbocage (the maps I played today) you encounter mainly the weaker Shermans and not the M4A3. And to kill the Cromwell with a shot on the turret from the front is more a luck game because of those rivets that you can see on the coll. mesh renders.

That I get some trouble against the M4A3 or a the Sherman 76 mm is accaptable for me, but ingame a M4A3 feels the same like a Sherman M4A1 and the Sherman II or V if you encounter it with a PIV because you need two shots to the front in the most cases. The balance between long range effectiveness and armor of the different tanks is just off. If I need two shots with a StuG III on the front of a Sherman from 50 metre, then there is something wrong. I ended up so damn often in a deathtrap today while driving the Marder I that it is just frustrating.

On a final note I would like to mention, that it is difficult to messure the armor in HP and mm ingame. You messure the armor with the shots that you need on a target with the current system. Same as you messure the strength of a gun to encounter a target.
At a range of lets say 200 metre (dk the exact range) the Tiger and the Firefly get the exact same tanks. They need both two shots on each other.   
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 10-10-2012, 02:10:54
To give a short feedback of my (!) FH2.45 vehicle experiences:

A) Being shot from a Tiger II and surviving in a Cromwell:
1,5 stripes damage from an 8,8-cm-KwK 43 L/71. As I understand Ts4EVER's post, it cannot have bounced off, since there actually was some "damage". So no angle mod problem here.
Yes it was a Tiger II because I was together in one TS3 channel with its driver (GamefreakDP).
(http://www7.pic-upload.de/thumb/10.10.12/zk92kiyh1x7.png) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16391807/KT-DAMAGE-on-a-Cromwell---1-5-strips.png.html)
That does not feel like FH2 for me any more .


B) Hiding in the PAK40 at Eppeldorf North and waiting until the sherman drives blindly within 15 meters range of you, just to have your AP round bounce off there and make a nice marker:
(http://www7.pic-upload.de/thumb/10.10.12/ur5mobsj965y.png) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16391834/screen012.png.html)
Yes I could reproduce that shot. I was so stunned the first time I could not take a screenshot then.
Feels like "Why do I spend my time here? This PAK makes no sense."


C) Firing into the rear side of the turret of an M4A3 from 3 meters distance at Farmhouse/Cobra.
When sitting in a Panther with a 7,5-cm-KwK 42 L/70. Having the shell bounce off and the Sherman start smoking (not burning). Sadly no screenshot.
Feels... well you know how it feels. Not good.


D) Firing a Panzerschreck at the Sherman's side and have the Sherman survive it
(posted before in other thread): Feels frustrating.


E) Firing at an M3A1 Halftrack and have the Panther 75mm AP shell bounce off 2x from the front.
Feels wrong.


Despite BF3 being released, we had 3 populated servers each evening with FH 2.40.
Now it is only one measly FH 2.45 server. 80 players, 100 when the evening is good, which has become a rare occasion. I would like for FH2 to have more players again. Even if they fill HSLAN and give me the "762 is evil" thing all the time. That is annoying but not as bad as this state of affairs.

I hope that 2.46 moves into the direction of FH 2.40 and FH 0.7 again. Tanking worked and players enjoyed it. I do realize that the developer team codes for their own interest, enjoyment and personal practice. But this development should not be overlooked, or there may not be any player base left, soon.

I see long standing FH2 players make cynic jokes about tanking. I see newcomers complain about tanking and its surreal effects. Most of my tank driving 762 admins have resigned and don't even complain any more. I see how many of them switch to Arma, Dayz, WoT, CoH and other games.

The reason I am being given when I ask why for is in most cases: "vehicles and their armor are just wrong now, vehicles FH2 are no fun anymore." This goes for PAKs, APCs, Tanks, sometimes even planes. With their "sloped armour", where the Minenmunition of 20mm cannons / 40mm Bofors bounces off. Minenmunition can not really "bounce off" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minengescho%C3%9F).

Please fix the vehicle armour system. I do not wish to "battle communicate" any more.
Nor do I get the feeling from reading the chat in our servers that most of the players wish to.
I wish to play Forgotten Hope again. See you in FH2.46, I am counting on you, Devs!




Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 10-10-2012, 07:10:08
From a basic gamer point of view:

Matilda Mk II should be the "Queen of Battlefield" during the early stage of the war. I want to see some dread when facing one. Its tiny cannon should at least show some penetration power.
what feels wrong The 2 pdr is too weak to do anything now. For the first time in FH history (including FH1), I finally emptied a tank's ammo reserve.

Valentine tanks should feels like, perhaps a redundant of the Matilda, but a little bit weaker.
what feels wrong The 2 pdr cannon.

Crusader Mk.III should feels like an improvement over the previous Crusader tanks, especially the cannon.
what feels wrong The 6 pdr cannon should show some power at least.

Sherman with 75 mm M3 gun should feels like a standard vehicle with good anti-infantry capability, but "just adequate" gun, which can be ineffective in killing something bigger than StuG III/IV/40 and Panzer IVs.
what feels wrong Sherman feels overly powerful now, especially its armour. They should at least show some vulnerability to guns equal to PaK40.

Sherman Firefly should be the ultimate anti-German heavies. Its gun should at least kill any big German tanks with ease. It might be weak (as weak as the standard Sherman), but it is the only tanking option available to the allied to team to effectively kill German heavies.
what feels wrong The 17 pdr cannon is too weak now.

Cromwell IV should be a fast tank that feels almost like a jeep, agile and quick. Its guns should also feels like Sherman's. But its armour should feels slightly weaker than the Sherman's.
what feels wrong Cromwell is not only fast, but overly strong as well.

Churchill should feels like an infantry tank, slow, but very capable. They should show good protection, up to at least a shot from 75 mm cannons (exception of Panther's and Jagdpanzer's long barrel 75 mm).
what feels wrong Churchill feels slightly overpowered now, almost like Tiger's equal, but with much weaker gun.

Panzer IV H should feels like a weaker version of Sherman, but packs more punch with its long-barreled gun.
what feels wrong Panzer IV feels quite strong, and the cannon is too weak.

Panzer V Panther should feels like a fast but powerful tank, its gun should projects tremendous power with even single click, but its gun's anti-infantry capability should be reduced. They should also display vulnerability to the sides and rear, but its front should be very very powerful.
what feels wrong Panzer V is strong almost from all aspects, its non-frontal aspects should show some vulnerability. Its gun feels very ineffective now.

Panzer VI E/H Tiger should feels like a big tank, heavy and slow, yet the gun should be very powerful, almost dominating, the pure pwnage tank. Also it should have better anti-infantry capability than the Panther. The number should be reduced IMO.
what feels wrong Tiger's cannon is the only complaint here. It should effectively kill anything in allied inventory with much ease, with the exception of the heavy ones like Churchill or Shermans with upgraded armour.

Panzer VI B Koenigstiger should feel like the ultimate tank, have at least similar maneuverability with Tiger, but faster turret rotating speed. The guns are also the ultimate gun that can kill almost everything with single punch, but anti-infantry capability should be reduced when compared to Tiger.
what feels wrong Same with Tiger, the Koenigstiger should pack more punch with its cannon, I expect to kill or at least burn (red health bar) anything around the battlefield with 1 shot.

If the devs decided to nerf the tanking system in FH2, at least I want it to be relational... for example, if it takes 2 shots for a Tiger to kill a standard Sherman, then I want the 76 mm M1 gun of upgraded Sherman to do little on the Tiger as well. So we can reproduce the feeling of the powerfulness of a Tiger tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Tankbuster on 10-10-2012, 09:10:37
Quote

Cromwell IV should be a fast tank that feels almost like a jeep, agile and quick. Its guns should also feels like Sherman's. But its armour should feels slightly weaker than the Sherman's.

IIRC the Cromwell's armour was thicker than the Sherman
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gotkai on 10-10-2012, 09:10:37
Nice summary Zoologic. It´s more or less the sum i would write.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 10-10-2012, 11:10:44
Quote

Cromwell IV should be a fast tank that feels almost like a jeep, agile and quick. Its guns should also feels like Sherman's. But its armour should feels slightly weaker than the Sherman's.

IIRC the Cromwell's armour was thicker than the Sherman

Sherman's 68 mm armour is sloped, while Cromwell's frontal 60-90 mm armour is not sloped at all. I think we have to compensate for that.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Oberst on 10-10-2012, 12:10:33
...
On a final note I would like to mention, that it is difficult to messure the armor in HP and mm ingame. You messure the armor with the shots that you need on a target with the current system. Same as you messure the strength of a gun to encounter a target.
At a range of lets say 200 metre (dk the exact range) the Tiger and the Firefly get the exact same tanks. They need both two shots on each other.   

This is one mayor point! On a certain range serveral tanks, which shouldnt FEEL or BE equal, get equal.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-10-2012, 15:10:16
Quote

Cromwell IV should be a fast tank that feels almost like a jeep, agile and quick. Its guns should also feels like Sherman's. But its armour should feels slightly weaker than the Sherman's.

IIRC the Cromwell's armour was thicker than the Sherman

That doesn't matter. The guns of the german standard tanks (PIV, StuG, PAK40) could easily punch through the allied standard tanks (early Sherman models and the Cromwell aswell). 76mm is not much a problem for all of those tanks and especialy as it wasn't sloped armor it provided a good target. Ofcourse the allied forces tried to improve the armor of their tanks and developed tanks like the M4A3 or the Jumbo versions. What gets overlooked is the fact that the gun of the PIV can punch through a M4A3 aswell, not as easy as against an M4A1 but it made still quiet "some" damage.  ;D

Something like shown in Odiums screenshot with the PAK 40 and the M4A3 is just nonesense and is a step too far even if you justify it with scaling. This PAK 40 on Eppeldorf is always on the same spot, what makes it even more dangerous. If you take a look at the penetration tables of the PAK 40 then you will see that even angled shots on the side armor of a Sherman should be a 1S1K with anything that uses a PAK 40 (Marder I especialy) still with scaling in mind. At a ranges of 500m the PAK 40 can punch through double/triple the side armor of a Sherman (ca. 40mm) even with a angle of 30 degree. And that should be the charm of playing a Marder or a StuG. Bad mobility but alot - and I mean alot, alot, alot - firepower.
And we are not talking about the armor of those TD. The StuG front armor might be ok, but if it gets flanked by a force of Sherman tanks it's gone. The Marder is a 1S1K in 99% of my shots with a Sherman.

Yesterday while playing the Marder on Goodwood I even waited to let the Shermans get closer (was like 75-100 metre) and I still wasn't able to kill them with one shot from the front. At such ranges it doesn't matter for a PAK 40 if the armor of the Sherman II is sloped, even if I justify it with scaling to make the game playable.


What I would like to notice is, that the 6pdr makes quiet good damage. A PIII isn't a big problem for me. Maybe a tad more punch, but overall it feels good to have a tank with a 6pdr.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 12-10-2012, 13:10:47
I remember the days of Fh 0.7 I was just getting a hold of Panther whenever available and start driving all around the map with road kills. Didn't even need to stop for aim. I could do that with Firefly as well. Even owning KTs 1v1. That tanking system was quite good.

However, I really disliked 2.45 tanking system at first, really. Hated it.

After playing for a while, I started discovering weak spots on every tank(which a good tanker always will) and started dominating Allied tanks. Even a buggy piece-of-shit Cromwell cannot stand against me. I 1S1K Pershing's with my KT and other tanks doesn't even bother me.  ;D

But still I want a system like 2.4 and more Allied tanks to compensate Axis superiority.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 12-10-2012, 14:10:30
But still I want a system like 2.4 and more Allied tanks to compensate Axis superiority.
Bingo.

1) I honestly think we should get rid of the range modifier. I know the game is scaled but the tank combat is surreal. Like Shitmaker mentioned in a previous post there are situations where your enemy is on mid range (100-200 metres) and you don´t want to shoot, because you know he will get away. So you try to come closer.

Allied tanks have a big advantage in the current tank system, because their most common tank - the Sherman - can now take german tanks, that have better firepower and frontal armor, head on. Before that the Sherman had to be used with caution against heavier german tanks. This strategic element is missing in FH 2.45.

This is one mayor point! On a certain range serveral tanks, which shouldnt FEEL or BE equal, get equal.
This pretty much summs it up.

2) Tank hunters and anti tank guns are in a serious disadvantage in the current state. Their ambush effect (even though you said you would like to make all at guns movable) is of no use. The target will just drive away or find you and pump HE ammunition into your gun, ignoring the fact that the tank got ambushed.

I just think FH2 lost it´s special charme, the special feeling, with the new tank system. Now it´s just ordinary tanking, like in every other game. Nothing special except nice shiny skins and different ammunition types.

There is so much negative feedback on the tanking system, it makes me sad.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 12-10-2012, 14:10:59
Too right... More realistic tank damage, and more Allied tanks.

The key word here is 'MORE-realistic', because you can't get it exact to realism.
Otherwise we'd need too many allied tanks in what is mostly a scaled map. Would work in ratios, would work for damage, won't work for map. 

So still goes back to the fine-balancing of damage system vs. ratios.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 12-10-2012, 18:10:58
I still think what we really need is to go back to 2.4 tanking system, and re-balance some of the tanks damage, and spawn times. I'd say give 76mm gun ability to 1-shot KT and whatnot, shorten spawn time of German tanks to balance out additional power and here we go: powerful guns are powerful, German tanks will feel "weaker" but they will spawn quicker so the maps are balanced.
I know that sounds a bit like "mirror balancing", but you know, its not Normandy anymore with 75mm Shermans all over the place, bigger guns arrived, the rules have changed. I think it would make tanks "feel" right, while still keeping differences between the sides.
And It would make Bulge just a little bit different from Norm. We like diversity right?
I honestly think we should get rid of the range modifier. I know the game is scaled but the tank combat is surreal. Like Shitmaker mentioned in a previous post there are situations where your enemy is on mid range (100-200 metres) and you don´t want to shoot, because you know he will get away. So you try to come closer.
Agree, range modifier is especially awesome on NA, there's nothing better than tanks shooting at each other for 5 years, until one of them decides to run away when it finally starts smoking, fuuuuuuuuuun!(Grant vs Pz3 on Gazala, or Alam Halfa, wonderful)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Paythoss on 12-10-2012, 20:10:52
Yeah ... nothing is better then waste almost half of ammo from M3 Stuart to side armor of ONE Pz III from distance below 500 m  ;D
Fun Fun Fuuuuun :3  ;)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 13-10-2012, 09:10:35
I'm still undecided on the new tanking system. Tank battles generally last longer now, which I think is definitely a good thing, and I don't mind the occasional weirdness of kill shots leaving a bit of health left along with the occasional shot bouncing off or doing very little damage. The distinction I think has to be made there is that it's not realistic, but it is like an analogy for realism. In real life there were so many variables and the same shot hitting the same area a thousand times won't produce the same result every time. I also like that now in 2.45, you spend a fair bit of time when you're driving a tank retreating to repair or get more ammo.

One thing I dislike about the changes is it seems like a lot of tanks aren't as "scary" as they should be. A Panther tank should be a fucking big deal to encounter, and your team should put great effort into destroying it, but now it's just a bit like "Oh you're going on holiday to the Farmhouse flag are you? Have a nice trip, I'll see ya when you get back, and by the way, there's a Panther there". I remember in FH1, seeing a KT or just a regular Tiger was a legitimate OH SHIT moment, but it isn't really the case anymore. Similarly, the Allies of course have some vehicles that should be like this too, such as the Valentine on some maps feeling more like a fat Crusader than a heavy tank, and the M36 Jackson (especially now with no HVAP) is just sort of a nuisance, like a fly that needs to be swatted instead of a tank destroyer that can blow up anything you have from any range, and fuck up whole squads at once with 90mm HE shells. I'll put it this way: before 2.45 some vehicles (King Tiger, Tiger, Churchill, etc.) felt like bosses in an adventure game, where you really had to be on top of your game and work together to defeat. Now they feel like a turtle to jump on.

And I know I spam this in every tank thread, but I would really like to see tanker kits on more maps! We need them!

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 13-10-2012, 12:10:55
I also think the current range modifier has been a horrible addition, someone descibed the tank battles as surreal. That is really the inly word I can comeup with with after playing 2.45 for a while.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 13-10-2012, 13:10:29
And I know I spam this in every tank thread, but I would really like to see tanker kits on more maps! We need them!

Hell yeah! With berets for Brits and tank helmets for the Yanks!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 13-10-2012, 15:10:06
And I know I spam this in every tank thread, but I would really like to see tanker kits on more maps! We need them!

Hell yeah! With berets for Brits and tank helmets for the Yanks!

And these special caps for Germans of course!!!  8)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 14-10-2012, 00:10:57
Haven't played tank vs tank in FH2 for quite some time because of this, tried it again today at Villers. A tiger shot at my firefly frontally, my health bar was not even red. I return fire to its ass, repeat, ASS, the 75mm short barrel can do significant damage to that part now and I fail to one shot it with firefly. Later I encontered a panther frontally, put a shell on its mantlet, panther just on fire. Looks like everything I know about FH2 tanking had been changed (to an absurd way).

Quit again after this round.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Paythoss on 14-10-2012, 10:10:30
"Learn to Aim" ... why when I see that words , I have in My mind that meme ...
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5jcr75UHH1qdyupno1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 14-10-2012, 14:10:06
You expect tanks to blow up in certain situations, however, that is simply not the case anymore. It has nothing to do with bugs, or angle mod or aiming, it is simply a case of the devs changing it. It only seems "absurd" because you are used to the older damage system, since neither of them were realistic or simulation detailed.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 14-10-2012, 16:10:52
With other words you mean "Get used to it!" That´s not really a better answer than "Learn to aim!" or "That feedback isn´t representative!".

I will never get used to the new tanking system, although bailing and not getting a virtual death is funny for me when I cowardly jump out of my tank. From the following pictures, none of the guys outsmarting/outplaying/ambushing my Sherman got a single kill.

(http://s1.directupload.net/images/121014/z52ikeof.jpg)
(http://s1.directupload.net/images/121014/9yoeq2dv.jpg)
Multiple Bazooka hits doing next to no damage, 3rd hit got me burning and I bailed.

(http://s7.directupload.net/images/121014/tl8amm33.jpg)
(http://s7.directupload.net/images/121014/4ppcpklh.jpg)
Panther shooting me from 20 metres far away? No problem, bail and get into the trench. My enemy will be satisfied knowing he just didn´t get points but prevented a Sherman from spawning within the next 60 seconds.

(http://s7.directupload.net/images/121014/7nvtsdui.jpg)
An 88 on cobra hitting 2 Shermans frontally... guess who died? Oh btw. I had time to bail - jsut in case he would get off another shot.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-10-2012, 17:10:22
Afaik you still get points for shooting a bailed tank since the last patch so I'm fine with that... But I don't like the stupid situations where clearly the winner should have been the sneaky bastard who managed to get behind the tank.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 14-10-2012, 17:10:13
The FlaK18s are always easy to shell with HEs but they in return cannot defend themselves properly with their AP shells.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 14-10-2012, 18:10:58
Afaik you still get points for shooting a bailed tank since the last patch so I'm fine with that... But I don't like the stupid situations where clearly the winner should have been the sneaky bastard who managed to get behind the tank.

Are you sure??? Can somebody confirm this. So if this is true do I getpoints for every empty teamlocked vehicle I kill.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Ts4EVER on 14-10-2012, 18:10:49
I don't think so.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 14-10-2012, 19:10:28
You expect tanks to blow up in certain situations, however, that is simply not the case anymore. It has nothing to do with bugs, or angle mod or aiming, it is simply a case of the devs changing it. It only seems "absurd" because you are used to the older damage system, since neither of them were realistic or simulation detailed.

So Sherman 76 surviving Stug shot to the back from 2 meters is something as it should be? M10 surviving Tiger frontal shots in the distance <50 m - really, should it be like that?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 15-10-2012, 09:10:48
Had the worst day of my FH life on last Saturday. I never got so frustrated in a game so much before. I lost a Panther vs - Sherman duel (frontally) Sherman 75MM takes out a Panther with 2 frontal shots while I cannot. First shot, Sherman burning, second shot bounces off!  ;D

In another occasion, Tiger gets killed by single hit from Hellcat.(To the front.) While you need at least 2 shots to the bugged hull. Even Shermans need 2 shots from that powerful 88.

I thought maybe I'm having a bad evening so I decided "lets switch to Schreck." But 3 times I shot M4A3 from behind not once it blowed up. Not even burned. I lost my will to play after this.  :-\
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 15-10-2012, 10:10:35
At times, I successfully one-shot a Sherman V from distance using Koenigstiger at Goodwood. I killed many good bots in Cromwells and Shermans inside that Koenigstiger. One bugged round from a Firefly only reduced half of my health bar. However, one silly thing I encountered is that my 88 mm round bounced off a M3 Halftrack's sloped frontal aspect. I was finally killed by swarm of bots throwing Satchels at me when I drive inside Cagny with some German bots who sit tight on the hull, and refuse to get out of my tank to fight as infantries.

I can tolerate that situation, I could LARPing in-game, imagining that the ROQF factory that produce the 17 pdr shell that hit me, happens to dish out defective shells. Or the M3 drivers and its occupants were simply lucky, using their 5 years worth of lifetime luck.

But at situation like Erwin's, I couldn't fathom why it isn't considered a bug or an undesirable in-game mechanics.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-10-2012, 11:10:13
I thought maybe I'm having a bad evening so I decided "lets switch to Schreck." But 3 times I shot M4A3 from behind not once it blowed up. Not even burned. I lost my will to play after this.  :-\

Shot one on the side from ~25 m and it just burned and lobbed a HE shell at me. Stupid...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 15-10-2012, 14:10:52
I thought maybe I'm having a bad evening so I decided "lets switch to Schreck." But 3 times I shot M4A3 from behind not once it blowed up. Not even burned. I lost my will to play after this.  :-\

Shot one on the side from ~25 m and it just burned and lobbed a HE shell at me. Stupid...

As Lightning stated in another threat, is this something that devs didn't know about. We discussed it somewhere else and ofcourse it is wierd that a Shreck can still 1s1K a Churchill, but not a Sherman. A good advice for hunting tanks: never ever shot a AT weapon to the rear armor. You have a good chance to just bounce off or hit a little slope so that the damage will get reduced. Always try to engage from the side and aim at the side armor. This way you will win in such a situation in 99% of the times.

About the range modifier and 1S1K: the devs clearly intented to make tank fights last longer. But the current range modifier wich is working linear, if I understoot that right, leads to ridiciolous situations on close and mid range range. Engaging tanks on long range - this is where german tanks should have an advantage - you can stop playing against an average team.

I had a good round on Cobra yesterday while trolling a good amount of enemy tanks with a PIV on the Farmhouse. With such a experience I could say, that the system is cool, but it is not representable for the whole matter. Why? Because the enemy team was a bunch of newbies and only a few of them able to drive a tank. I can't count on that luck of playing against a noobteam, everytime I start FH2.
 
Maybe going back to the exponential range modifier could be a solution. At the moment tanking feels like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifvsjFEukYE  ;D

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: katakulli on 15-10-2012, 18:10:58
I thought maybe I'm having a bad evening so I decided "lets switch to Schreck." But 3 times I shot M4A3 from behind not once it blowed up. Not even burned. I lost my will to play after this.  :-\

Shot one on the side from ~25 m and it just burned and lobbed a HE shell at me. Stupid...

  So you never use piat, bazooka and rifle grenades ? ( at eppeldorf and cobra )  Have fun.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 15-10-2012, 20:10:26
Yeah, Schreck only had twice the penetration capabilities of the piat. Skirts did the rest.

The current damage system is pure arcade. I just ordered Red Orchestra 2 to have some fun :/.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: TASSER on 15-10-2012, 23:10:21
Had the worst day of my FH life on last Saturday. I never got so frustrated in a game so much before. I lost a Panther vs - Sherman duel (frontally) Sherman 75MM takes out a Panther with 2 frontal shots while I cannot. First shot, Sherman burning, second shot bounces off!  ;D

I can one shot Panther's frontally pretty consistantly with the shot trap. Your second shell bouncing off sounds like it shouldn't have happened though.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: ajappat on 16-10-2012, 08:10:59
The current damage system is pure arcade. I just ordered Red Orchestra 2 to have some fun :/.
Well you are not going to find tanks getting one shotted there either.  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 16-10-2012, 09:10:57
The current damage system is pure arcade. I just ordered Red Orchestra 2 to have some fun :/.
Well you are not going to find tanks getting one shotted there either.  ::)

Actually he will, but not on a consistent base. But there are known weakspots for both the Pz IV and T 34.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Paythoss on 16-10-2012, 10:10:12
(http://oi48.tinypic.com/2hrjs4p.jpg)
I forgot to ask ... is that funny point in Valentine , allowed to kill that tank frontally from MG fire , was improved in 2.45 ? Because I have feelings is not  8)
(http://oi47.tinypic.com/2q1xeea.jpg)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 16-10-2012, 12:10:33
That is a way to highlight a wooden box on top of the track wheel spar.

Now in that sense, how Rad's teddy bear (commonly mounted on various American tanks) survive even pistol rounds?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 17-10-2012, 07:10:14
With other words you mean "Get used to it!" That´s not really a better answer than "Learn to aim!" or "That feedback isn´t representative!".

I will never get used to the new tanking system, although bailing and not getting a virtual death is funny for me when I cowardly jump out of my tank. From the following pictures, none of the guys outsmarting/outplaying/ambushing my Sherman got a single kill.

You're just describing good game play here. A kill isn't the ultimate goal here, disabling an enemy threat is. The pictures just shows various scenarios of tank v tank or tank v infantry interactions, I have no problems with the game playing out like that.... 3 zooks is OK. We had huge problems in 2.3 and earlier patches with too many and too lethal AT guns running around and lol-shotting tanks all the time. The result was that tanks just camped and spammed HE shells in to the towns and CQ areas, as it was pointless to engage closer. We aren't making that game, we want everyone to feel engaged in the action

Don't lose sight of the overall game play flow when staring too blindly on specific scenarios.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 17-10-2012, 11:10:44

You're just describing good game play here. A kill isn't the ultimate goal here, disabling an enemy threat is.

But how can I "disable an enemy threat" when that threat shoots me back in the face when I was clearly supposed to win...  ::)

The pictures just shows various scenarios of tank v tank or tank v infantry interactions, I have no problems with the game playing out like that.... 3 zooks is OK. We had huge problems in 2.3 and earlier patches with too many and too lethal AT guns running around and lol-shotting tanks all the time.

"Running around" with static AT guns.... yeah right... ::)

 The result was that tanks just camped and spammed HE shells in to the towns and CQ areas, as it was pointless to engage closer. We aren't making that game, we want everyone to feel engaged in the action

So now they can camp and spam HE shells from the towns and CQ areas, as it's impossible to kill them with nerfed AT weapons... Long or short range... gj! Heck I see Unique getting scores over 100s every single round of Brest, PeB or any other "CQ" map.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 17-10-2012, 11:10:24
What's the problem between FH 0.7 and this tanking system? I mean 2.4 was not that bad it was close to 0.7 style and everyone was happy.

Back in the day(0.7 days) we were helpless against a KT and Tiger unless you get a good zook user or Firefly, M10 and 76MM. If you see those in regular Sherman(might as well add Panther) you were just sitting there and waiting to be killed.  You also need to work your ass out to flank them. Why is it so bothering people now we need so drastic changes to make German tanks like paper? Or boosting up Shermans to become a Tiger themselves?

Now I see Sherman 75mm charges head to head against Tigers, no fear at all, because they know even a 2 shot to the front will finish the job. I couldn't believe first time I got taken out by a 75MM Sherman, I shot it twice with 88mm gun, one bounces off, other one sets it on fire and in the meantime Sherman finished me off. You use PzSchreck, you know with big projectile(Which even blows up T34 very easily) is bouncing off from Shermans back/side, oh yeah because it's more fun. Not even mentioning Fausts.


 So arcade. Might as well play BF1942 all over again.

(I'm giving out examples from Fh 0.7 Because Tiger, KT or Panther were never been strong on FH2 since the first version)

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 17-10-2012, 12:10:33
I think you both have a point. Its not right for a Sherman to get 3 side shots from a PAK38 or PAK40 and still be amongst the living - Let alone for it to swivel round and 1S1K me, the PAK gunner.

Its NOT good gameplay.

However, if players are too scared to use tanks as the massive killing machines they were supposed to, that TOO eint right.

So as I've been saying, its a fine line we are yet to reach, not 2.4, NOT 2.45.
But something between the two.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 17-10-2012, 12:10:38
18 pages, and what is your conclusion? except "me dont liek" or "fh1 ftw"
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 17-10-2012, 12:10:45
I gave examples from FH1 because FH2 tank system never met the demands. It's gone better and better but with 2.45 that went upside down. Actually that's is why everybody talked for 18 pages.  ;D

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 17-10-2012, 15:10:44
You're both being a bit simplistic, IMO  ::)

FH1 was a DIFFERENT ENGINE. Even if you used the exact same values of FH1, you wont get the same result.
Mimicking FH1 damage system in 'feel' is not so easy because I THINK that's what the devs have tried to do since 2.0. Its less mimicking then trying to 'get it right'

And 2.45 was NOT total wrong. Like Natty said in his next to last post, there were real considerations that led to it.

Can we get off the partisan lines so the next few posts, and pages may be more constructive in finding a 3rd way maybe?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 17-10-2012, 18:10:20
We already suggested a 3rd way. Bring back last tanking system(unless you make this bug free)and add more tanks to the Allies.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 17-10-2012, 19:10:43
Last tanking system is what Natty spoke against.  ::)
Tanks standing outside the town of Eppeldorf and firing into it while circling because they know any one thing can kill them instantly irrespective of how awesome their tanks is.

WE NEED A BALANCE BETWEEN THE MULTI-SHOT KILLS & REALISTIC 1S1K TO MAKE IT WORK.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 17-10-2012, 19:10:42
18 pages, and what is your conclusion? except "me dont liek" or "fh1 ftw"
18 pages in the third thread about the same topic. Including a locked poll with obvious tendencies.

With other words you mean "Get used to it!" That´s not really a better answer than "Learn to aim!" or "That feedback isn´t representative!".

I will never get used to the new tanking system, although bailing and not getting a virtual death is funny for me when I cowardly jump out of my tank. From the following pictures, none of the guys outsmarting/outplaying/ambushing my Sherman got a single kill.

You're just describing good game play here.
The "funny" I used should be replaced with the word "retarded". That´s how it feels. In previous versions I would have got killed in those situations and believe it or not, that would have been more fun. In the current version where I bail in almost every engagement and thus often surfive, I feel like a cheater. I know the opponent should have gotten the kill, but I used a dirty trick.

The result was that tanks just camped and spammed HE shells in to the towns and CQ areas, as it was pointless to engage closer.
I have to strongly disagree here! Right now tanks can rape infantry even more than in previous versions. A good tanker will still be cautious and keep his distance spamming HE shells into spawns etc. The only difference now is that he can most likely stand a shot from either a PAK/Pounder or Panzerscheck and stay there longer spawnraping.

We already suggested a 3rd way. Bring back last tanking system(unless you make this bug free)and add more tanks to the Allies.
I have to sign that! Best suggestion to fix the tank system.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 17-10-2012, 19:10:26
lol. But that's one of the TWO ways. You guys need to recognize an impasse when you see one.
Natty says No, there are reasons for the current system,
Y'all say, NO, the 2.4 system was perfect.

That doesn't give much room for advancement, does it?
And... 2.4 was NOT perfect lads. Look back and you'd find complaints.
Its just so easy to take a system you preferred and call it PERFECT with 20:20 hindsight.

3rd way equals a position that both sides agree is good. We aren't there - Wont get there if you all keep entrenching.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 17-10-2012, 19:10:15
That doesn't give much room for advancement, does it?
And... 2.4 was NOT perfect lads. Look back and you'd find complaints.
Its just so easy to take a system you preferred and call it PERFECT with 20:20 hindsight.
The strange thing is back then there were already complaints that certain tanks stand to much shots, like the Panther to the side or Shermans with the german 75mm/L48. Yet - despite the complaints in version 2.4 that some tanks surfive longer than they should - someone decided to go the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 17-10-2012, 20:10:05
As we know, a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy. 2.4 tanking system was hardly perfect, but it was million times better that this crap.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-10-2012, 22:10:30
Musti, please stay a bit more constructive.  :-\

Believe me, I feel your pain, but calling things crap will not bring us much further. What I would like to add and take into consideration by the devs, is that the goal of the FH2 devs should be to offer a unique experience gameplay wise. Otherwise people will choose BF3 if the gameplay is equal. And making a Sherman a 3S1K is clearly a feature that leads to this. A Shreck or a PzFaust that needs more than one shot on a tank will not make the tanks move more. Guys like Unique will be even more annoying for new commers. Shrecks are pickup kits and not spawnable. Fausts can only be used one time btw, so you will have to find some ammo before trying to give the Sherman his second and deadly shot. Trust me, this doesn't work in FH and you will kill the mod this way.  :'(

It is much more important to stabalize the playerbase than gaining new players currently. I see so many long timers in the score boards of 762 or the official, who left the game with 2.45. Do you know, why people still play DH - a mod for a damn old game? Because it has unique gameplay. It looks like sh*t at the first view but if you get more into the game it is very nice and there is nothing comparable out there.

Yesterday I felt the first time like in BC2 while playing FH2. Odium and me were sitting on the backside of Horstpetersens' tank and constantly repairing him. He was face to face with a Panther and we exchanged alot of shots. The concept is cool for the interaction of the players, but it will make FH2 much more equal to newer games with better graphics - and this will be for sure the death of FH2.

... repairing a tank goes too fast btw.  ;D

Natty, you will have to find a way wich rewards the player who makes an effort. 1S1K was the rule in FH2.4 and kept the battle fluid but we also had shots wich bounced off or with reduced damage.
The player wants to see that his action leads to a consequence asap and that the battle is dynamic ... this means not fighting the same enemy for five minutes.
But more important was the fact that every asset had it's unique role and it was interesting for new players to find something that is fun and fits their gameplay. And this is a point where FH2.45 fails a bit.

Why fix something that isn't broken? 2.4 tanking system had it's flaws too (Cromwell and the Marder especialy) but overall it worked excellent. Why not tweak the buggy tanks wich were reported and concentrate on other things like buggy hitboxes or force all development on new fronts? New fronts and changing battlefields keep the players interested. New fronts are comnnected with new toys to play with

... this is the excitement about Forgotten Hope.  ;)

Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 17-10-2012, 23:10:30
5 minutes? that's a silly exaggeration isn't it?

"The player wants to see that his action leads to a consequence asap and that the battle is dynamic"

Indeed, and should be for both parties... Sitting and watching a hole in the hedgerow and click LMB to score a 100% guaranteed kill is not dynamic. It's static and predictable, and only lead to "camping" behaviour, where tankers get kind of anal and protective of their tanks (waiting 2minutes for it to spawn, then sneak around like some scared cat)

When you know you will have time to retaliate/react if you get hit, game play becomes more active, tactical, interesting and dynamic. That is the difference between A: a "realistic" but anal and "number-crunching" 1S1K system and B: a dynamic but somewhat less "realistic" but more fun (for both parties) system.

A: is fun for 20-30 players who know all the tank metrics and tables etc who can LOL at the n00bs who "dont get it"
B: can be fun for hundreds, even thousands normal FPS players, people who like active games, shooter fans, but perhaps not masters of WW2 tank models and penetration tables.

Guess which one I'd pick?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 17-10-2012, 23:10:02
Talk about biased attitude.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 17-10-2012, 23:10:06
The question is how much realism do you wish to sacrifice?
All we are here to say is that in our opinion, 2.46 should move into the direction of more realism again.

I am no "one shot one kill" fanatic. Yes, some (!) rounds bouncing off is fine, duds (commentary of one Dev ingame) and shot deviation is fine. But not utter surrealism. Not like in that video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxaQrr4ZVKM&feature=youtu.be

The fact that so many people (not only 5) keep taking the time and energy to try and change (maybe only move) your opinion on that matter in thread after thread only shows how important FH2 is to them. That should make you guys happy, try and be constructive with them. :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Musti on 17-10-2012, 23:10:06
Musti, please stay a bit more constructive.  :-\
Tried that, twice, didn't work. I can't be bothered to write walls of text.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 18-10-2012, 00:10:28
Guess which one I'd pick?

Guess which game would they pick.

Hint: It's not an obscure mod for a 7 year old game with crappy physics, almost no destruction and silly looking ragdolls...  ::)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: RAnDOOm on 18-10-2012, 00:10:23
Just a headsup/offtopic.

Realistically speaking, FH2 will not get that many new players. Thats a fact that we all have to accept.

A big percentage of the existing players are asking to get one specific feature being reverted to what it was before.

In order not to lose anymore players ( which is already happening since 2.45  ) some fast changes must be made, particularly in the 2.45 anglemod/tank system .
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 18-10-2012, 01:10:54
Randoom, you hit it on spot.

@Natty: I agree with you on the fact that this system of battle communication can be fun in other games.
I never claimed something different. But it doesn't work for FH2. If you want to keep the mod alive, make it unique and not like every other average FPS.
Wich game would you choose if BF3 and FH2 would have the same gameplay? The most people will certainly take BF3 because of the newer technology and the better graphixxxxxx. Only a few will take FH2, because of the scenary. And if they see that it plays like BF3 or CoD they won't stay long. Many people complaining here are the playing part of the core community. This speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kwiot on 18-10-2012, 02:10:01
Marder I cant shoot Sherman frontally on OP. Goodwood in distance less than 30 m... And Sherman killed me with HE... Now we have to flank Allied tank to have any chance with getting it, but of course you still shouldn't be sure that you willl get him... Pathethic!
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 18-10-2012, 02:10:24
[...] it doesn't work for FH2. If you want to keep the mod alive, make it unique and not like every other average FPS. [...]
+1

I just got this reply from !@! Cmoi SuperC, one of the Team Cont@ct clan leaders:

"[...]the majority of the team has gone on red orchestra 2.[...]"

Those guys were no less fanatic FH2'ers than we [762] guys. It makes me sad to see them leave.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 18-10-2012, 03:10:16
a few things you need to understand when trying to convince Natty.
Natty doesn't give a rat's ass about 'realism' so the argument that something is more realistic and what players want is fallacy to him, unless it can be justified in gameplay terms.

This poll should have served that purpose in showing that players prefer 2.45, but the questions were framed in a way that Natty feels is biased towards reverting to 2.45, so that opportunity's lost.

Secondly, Natty doesn't really care for extending the life of FH2 - He doesn't believe there 'extension' exists for the mod.

So sadly, gents, you need to, excuse the Punn, play HIS game... Speak in strictly gameplay terms if you want to sway him on logical grounds of gameplay advancement.

Think Spock of game development and try and make your points stick.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 18-10-2012, 04:10:02
a few things you need to understand when trying to convince Natty.
After a thread get locked by some "learn to shoot" crap,  a poll get locked because an unwanted option is leading by a mile, it's hard for me to understand why u still need to "convince".


So sadly, gents, you need to, excuse the Punn, play HIS game...
No, not really. The damage modifier can be totally server side modified. I talk to a 762 admin about this earlier and the reply is:" We'll let the devs change that". But it doesn't seems to me the devs have little bit intention of changing.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Horstpetersens on 18-10-2012, 06:10:44
a few things you need to understand when trying to convince Natty.
Natty doesn't give a rat's ass about 'realism' so the argument that something is more realistic and what players want is fallacy to him, unless it can be justified in gameplay terms.

Secondly, Natty doesn't really care for extending the life of FH2 - He doesn't believe there 'extension' exists for the mod.

So sadly, gents, you need to, excuse the Punn, play HIS game...
No the players don't need to play his game.
There are other games.

FH2 is not for everybody. It's a more mature community.
If this game will be like bf3 then it looses.
Sry for my harsh words but i don't want to see a great mod to get ruined.
If you want to kill the mod, keep on going. and think about why FH0.7 is still played.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Zoologic on 18-10-2012, 06:10:30
I lost all hope with Natty.
Do other devs have similar view with him?

We are not talking about 1S1K anymore, but a reasonable decrease in damage system (thus prolonging tank battles). We want it somewhat realistic, Tiger and Panther should feel powerful, and Sherman Firefly's cannon should be the Superkitty's kryptonite. The tank combat in 2.45 is an unexpected result, we have to admit that it is a problem first, before we can stop arguing.

Why not make Citroen CV survives 7.92 mm altogether? So we can chat while driving through a beautiful French coastal town?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 18-10-2012, 07:10:18
So if this is about making gameplay a lot of fun, then I would suggest following things:

- Give Stuka and bombers 30 bombs.
- Also give fighter 20 bombs.
- Make tanks go faster.
- Engineer should have 4 expacks.
- Make Medic as default kit with Mp40.
- Put Stg44 as spawnable to all maps.
- More Ammoboxes.
- Remove recoil on smgs.
- Remove delaying animation between weapon switchs.

Here you go, good old BF1942 Vanilla which has so damn fun!

If we get serious again,

You say you're trying to bring fun element for tankers. This thread clearly shows you're wrong. %90 people here loves to play with tanks and nobody is happy right now. If you want to make infantry gameplay much more tank free(they can't be bothered by tanks right?) then make CoD style maps and let them play infantry only.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 18-10-2012, 07:10:37
Secondly, Natty doesn't really care for extending the life of FH2 - He doesn't believe there 'extension' exists for the mod.

wow...way to publicly lie to make me look bad  ::) not the best move there...

we're looking in to the tank stuff, but we're a small team and have other things to do also. Just because 20 people writes enthusiatically in a thread doesnt mean we need to "revert" to anything (which FYI isnt technically possible anyway).
We'll update the tank system a bit for sure, but for 7 years our tank system has relied primarily on tables and math, and not experience. That's the cause for all the weird stuff happening. The system has too many variables basically. Which disallows us to experience-tune it easily. Anyone who ever worked with a software system knows that there is a threshold where too many variables just makes the system uncontrollable - if you havent then you shouldnt pretend to know about it just because you watched some ww2 documentaries and claim to "know" how tank battles should be like.

I dont like tanking either in 2.45, I didnt in 2.4 either but it was a bit better, yes. 2.3 and older patches were horrible, it wasnt designed for the current gaming generation, it was 5 years too late.
It's 2012 now, gamers - not you 20 guys here, but all the rest, we do have a few thousand active playernames in fh2 - want different things now. We cant make all you 20 guys happy and screw the others, at the same time we cant make all them happy and screw you either.

So: before we go legacy with FH2 there will be a revamp of armor battle, indeed, and it will be as "realistic" as possible but without sacrificing fundmental game play functionality. That means, consistency, communication (as in; the game telling the player what he should do, what tank hurts which tank etc) and balance.

the "allies get more tank" is not happening. That's a poor balance solution. Fail to make balanced tank battles and you just spawn 4 more tanks for one team? no no.... the PvP fight need to be balanced. rock-paper-scissor is the core, we arent changing the core of battlefield, it would be a death sentence.

so thx for the enthusiastic tank feedback, we'll see what happens with the system, and hope you'll like whatever we do with it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 18-10-2012, 09:10:51
^ Well I guess that's better than nothing. Thank you for the reply.

And no we shouldn't insult Natty by saying that he doesn't care about prolonging the life of FH 2, after he has done all that work in 2.4 and 2.45 (just look at how many maps he touched up!).

But what we can say is that his view of how to prolong the life of FH2 differs from ours. While we believe in attracting a specific audience that is looking for a "realistic" WW II shooter, he believes the solution is in attracting a more general audience of "casuals", and peope who enjoy "good" (and not necessary "realistic" gameplay).

The solution lies, as always, probably somewhere in between. We should aim to keep the "core audience" but at the same time attract new people from the wast numbers of "casual" gamers.

Note that I use the term "casual" in the lack of a better word. It's just a term to describe gamers with different views on games than us "WW II addicts".
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 18-10-2012, 09:10:48
Sorry, Natty. Wasn't trying to paint you bad.
But you do recall saying that the mod ends after Russian front

I just wanted the discussion to be framed more in terms of how 2.45 tank system worked for gameplay, not realism, which I think is the cause of the impasse.

Sorry if I misrepresented you.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 18-10-2012, 15:10:07
What leads you to the assumtion that most players prefer the style of 2.45 and not the style of 2.4 regarding the tank system? To me it seems to be more than just 20 persons who disagree with the new system.

Let´s face it. If someone new comes to FH2 - a mod based on an old game - it is because he is interested in the setting and most likely has some knowledge about it. Everyone else plays the latest games.

The initial spirit behind FH2 was to create a more realistic version of BF1942. With the latest tank system you turned away form those intentions that established FH2. - And I´m not talking about hardcore realism either, but a game influenced by realism to the extend 2.4 was. It worked fine imo -  but for sure better than the current one.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Horstpetersens on 18-10-2012, 15:10:19
amen
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 18-10-2012, 16:10:19
What leads you to the assumtion that most players prefer the style of 2.45 and not the style of 2.4 regarding the tank system? To me it seems to be more than just 20 persons who disagree with the new system.

Let´s face it. If someone new comes to FH2 - a mod based on an old game - it is because he is interested in the setting and most likely has some knowledge about it. Everyone else plays the latest games.

The initial spirit behind FH2 was to create a more realistic version of BF1942. With the latest tank system you turned away form those intentions that established FH2. - And I´m not talking about hardcore realism either, but a game influenced by realism to the extend 2.4 was. It worked fine imo -  but for sure better than the current one.

To be precise, 52 people voted for a change of the tank system, not 20. This is almost a full server. Would be interesting if the poll wasn't locked. But I guess the devs are already taking a look at the tank system, when I read Natty's last reply. I see a glimpse of hope atleast.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: DLFReporter on 19-10-2012, 08:10:56
I don't know why Butcher goes off on a tangent with Djinn, he is just a tester like me and no dev.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 19-10-2012, 08:10:35
The mistake that ancient FH2 devs did was to make the system too complex with too many variables. That's a totally normal mistake to do for people just starting out with amateur game design, everyone does it. (Just like new mappers spam the entire map with small planks, chairs, pots, pans etc)

Just looking at a complex game which is only about tanks, WORLD OF TANKS, our tanks are set up in pretty much the same way, with just as many different materials, small parts etc.... a tank in FH2 can easily have 10 different materials, same as in WoT

The difference is: they have a designed, real damage system for these tanks. We haven't. We cant shoot out parts of the tanks, we dont have the same scoping/sight mechanics, we dont have 3P camera making you more aware of the surrounding, we lack pretty much everything we need to make those materials useful.

It's done wrong to put it simply. The result is not "realism" it's annoyment. It's unpredictable behaviour with the tank, it's either getting 1s1k when you dont expect it, or unable to hurt enemy tank when you do expect it. It's getting no feedback if you even hurt him. It's aiming at a 50x30 pixel tank at distance and manage to hit him, but projectile hit some minor detail you cant even see, so now you sit there and "guess" if he received any damage. It's driving a tank that doesnt feel like a tank, it's being able to snipe infantry with the coax while at the same time being 1s1k by grass-ninjas. It's a system that fails a little on all points, pretty much the only thing that works as intended is the sights and the ammo-switch system. The rest is clunky, rough and un-engaging as it is. OK OK, it's not all bad, you still have fun and exciting rounds, dont you? I mean... the wtf moments dont take up more than say 30% of your overall tanking time, the rest is actually quite cool, isnt it? Otherwise you wouldnt be playing, or?

So we need to iron out all the annoying "wrong" things, make it more predictable/controlled/consistent, make an easier manageable system that allows us to easily go in and do these "fine tunes" that you say make FH2 so special. The problem right now is, we can't. We lack the "levers" to pull to put it simply, because our system is mega-complex and is using to many paramaters which alters the outcome of each shot. This what we will start to simplify, so that we can manage the system like we want - and as you like it as well. When Im saying simplify, you immediately jump to game-results (obviously since you only interact with the game while gaming, interestingly always refering to a completely other game from 2002) but Im talking about simplyfying the system so we can control it more easily. That is why things like materials, velocity, penetration (non existent term), damagedrop, deviation needs to be consistent and possible to overview easily.

I hope that cleared up some of this confusion, I think we sometime talk about different things here.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 19-10-2012, 08:10:00
^ Ok but we have already concluded that people mostly hate "weird" stuff happening at close range (i.e. less than 150 m let's say), on loger ranges they can live with the occasional bounce and bad hit detection.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 19-10-2012, 15:10:39
yep agreed, although 150m is considered "long range" in the BF2 engine
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: djinn on 19-10-2012, 15:10:42
Within that range, an error with the damage system may mean an unfair death.
There is little chance to manoeuvres away unless you are very close to cover.

Beyond 150m, its possible to keep moving and hope the next hit is a miss.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Natty on 20-10-2012, 10:10:52
well, not really. It's a gradient, and it starts at 75m.. but anyway
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Oberst on 20-10-2012, 20:10:43
How does the damage modifier work and what was it in 2.4? Is it linear?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Eat Uranium on 20-10-2012, 21:10:34
The range damage modifier will reduce your damage linearly from distance A to B.  2.4 and 2.45 tanks do full damage from 0-10 metres distance, then drop linearly with distance to their minimum damage, which takes effect from 300+ metres.

Quote from: ...\Battlefield 2\mods\FH2\objects_server.zip\weapons\Projectiles\Vehicleguns\vehicleguns.tweak
Code: [Select]
rem mindamage = caliber in cm  x 6
rem damage = 50 + caliber in mm (for automatic cannons like 20mmL55 on Pz II damage is set to 30)

Then you have the anglemod, which will reduce your damage if the angle your shot hits is greater than 60 degrees from normal.  Not entirely sure if the reduction is linear or exponential or just a step function from 0% to 100% though.

Finally, you have the effect of materials, which are used to simulate armour thickness and shell penetration.  These are rounded to the nearest 10mm (nearest 5mm below 30mm).  Basically, if the shell penetration is less than the armour thickness, then no damage is done.  If it is equal, then damage done is modified by x3.75; if the penetration is 10mm more, then x5.25; 20mm more and x6.75 etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/4oPhj.png)

There are also sandbag armour materials that act as +10mm thick for AP, +20mm for HEAT.  Skirt armour is +5mm for AP, and +30mm vs HEAT (also with a much reduced gradient).

In 2.4, the trend was exponential rather than linear.  This was the only significant change I think.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 21-10-2012, 02:10:30
Okay there we might have one of the problems.
So basically we do the same penetration now in 2.45, but the "health bars" we eliminate by doing so are fewer, now.

Because now, with sufficient (=exceeding the necessary value in mm) penetration the damage we do only rises linearly, no more exponentially.

And some tanks who should not survive (Sherman hit by a Panther from 30 meters) now do survive.
Did I understand that right?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 27-10-2012, 14:10:58
It´s not all about the range modifier, there are also some issues on short distances that didn´t occur in 2.4, not even with the angle mod. Shots bounce although they should be a kill (at least imo).

(http://s14.directupload.net/images/121027/cqao8zwb.jpg)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 02-11-2012, 16:11:09
I shot Cromwell point blank range with Tiger's 88MM gun to the side and it's just laughed at me like I throwed an arrow to it.  :'(
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: muratti on 02-11-2012, 19:11:24
I had these odd bounces even against trucks. maybe the shells are bugged?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: ajappat on 02-11-2012, 20:11:03
I had these odd bounces even against trucks. maybe the shells are bugged?
You were likely just shooting some part that doesn't take any damage. You need to hit engine or chassis to deal damage.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 02-11-2012, 20:11:29
I have had some really bad issues the past few days:

- 2 M10 normal AP shots (76mm) bounced off enemy half-track from 100m, no effect
- 2 Marder APCR shots (76.2mm) bounced off the side of a Crusader to do no damage (Crusader hit me twice and only the 2nd shot did damage)

Dunno if it's related, but the Panzerschrek has a horrible time against Allied armor now. On Totalize 2 hits to front of Cromwell seem to do no damage (not sure though). But on Brest, I had horrible "luck". One shot does no damage to APC, just bounces off the windshield. Another shot bounced off the side of a Stuart, and then a third shot off the front did no damage (but a hit to a similar location was a 1-shot KO a few minutes later). The absolute worst was against the 76mm Sherman.. 1 shot to top of the turret (from 3rd story up in a building) did no damage. 2nd shot set the tank on fire. 3rd shot did no damage. Went back for more ammo. 4th shot did no damage to the front of the hull (tank still on fire driving around). 5th shot to the front of the hull again did no damage, and a 6th shot from my original position hit the engine deck and again, nothing.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 03-11-2012, 00:11:43
Looks like you really battle communicated there. I feel your pain, man, I really do...

*raises brofist expecting fistbump of shared-battlecommunication-pain*
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 03-11-2012, 00:11:22
Looks like you really battle communicated there. I feel your pain, man, I really do...
I had to laugh so hard! ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Surfbird on 03-11-2012, 00:11:46
Infantry anti tank weapons indeed seem to suffer. As this is my favourite activity, I realize that it's a bit frustrating here and there, but well, I don't want to cry to much about it, just stating my experiences:

The Panzerschreck seems to be the biggest problem of all anti tank weapons and seems to be completely useless sometimes. Shot more than enough Shermans in the back and only made them burn, sometimes it bounces off too, which also happens with Panzerfaust 30. Panzerfaust 60 and 100 still seem to be "fine", I think it might be because the projectile on 60 and 100 has more speed and does not hit in weird angles as often as the Panzerfaust 30. It's not always like that though, have blown up a Cromwell with a 30 two times yesterday, but had games before where it always bounced (and I did not shoot the front). Well, Cromwell is reported to be buggy anyway, so...
I also remember always making British Sherman V and Firefly tanks only burn with Panzerfaust 30, but had less problems blowing up US regular Sherman tanks. Probably intended, as Sherman V and Firefly have thicker armor at the sides especially ? But I can't remember what it was like in 2.4 with these and if it's normal that they survive a Panzerfaust 30 shot (I guess it's alright when I can't blow up a firefly with it compeltely, not sure about Sherman V though) I just noticed that the Panzerschreck shots I fired lately hit Sherman V and usually bounced or made them burn as well. Dunno about the US versions, my feeling tells me they work better for the Panzerschreck as well.

Would be nice if someone could tell me about the Sherman V/Firefly armor thicknesses and if a Panzerfaust 30/Panzerschreck should kill them or the burning is alright and intended.

Was also using Bazooka (M9) a few hours back and noticed it bounced off Halftracks quite often and I was not able to blow up a PIV with a shot in the rear and one in the side (that the shot in the side didn't do (much) damage is okay though, as it had skirts) Does not feel good when you manage to sneak around the tank, hit in the rear, you even manage to take another shot to the side and tank gives a shit and kills you :(

Only thing you can trust on is the engineer class for tank hunting, preferably the German Geballte Ladung. This blows up what it is supposed to blow up. Should be the ~ the same with the other explosives, no problems there. Also I did not notice as many problems with the Piat, it probably work properly but I'm not too sure about it, did not use it too much lately, but I think it's quite fine.

Furthermore my personal feeling tells me that M1 Bazooka works better than M9 Bazooka. Both don't work as they should imo, but the M1 Bazooka seems to be more reliable, but I also might get that feeling out of random luck/misfortune with each of them.

I'll stay vigilant and see if I can make more observations that confirm my impressions about the whole AT weapon theme.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 03-11-2012, 07:11:57
Nice post Surfbird. I echo the sentiments that (unfortunately) engineer kit is much more useful for taking out tanks. 3kg geballte will take out near enough anything with one blast, and Composition B has also been beefed up (in 2.45 you can kill a Panzer IV with one of them to the engine deck - in 2.4, you definitely needed 2, and occasionally required 3). Compared to bazookas and the Panzerschrek, engy kits are the way to go. The only tradeoff is that the rocket launchers can harm from a distance, while geballtes and such require you to get close to the tank, but the tradeoff is more than made up for by the fact that rocket warheads typically bounce off or are unsure kills, whereas a simple toss of a green box destroys the tank. I should note though, that the 1kg geballte could probably be beefed up a bit, since on Crete I have now several times used the cluster grenade, put it directly on the top of a Vickers light tank, and it's only started it smoking. Keeping in mind the Vickers tank can be knocked out with the bare hands kit if you smack it hard enough, the 1kg geballte seems a little weak.

While I can't comment on bazookas (don't use them often enough recently), for whatever it's worth I really want the Panzerschrek to be given it's 2.4 glory again.

My reasoning:

- Panzerschrek is not spawnable, meaning you cannot just respawn if you're killed chasing the tank
- You also can't respawn to finish it off (unless you want to trade your dignity for a satchel)
- Panzerschrek is extremely difficult to fire straight and requires hours of practice to reliably shoot even a stationary vehicle. In my opinion, the least you can do for a guy who actually manages to hit something with it is reward him with a kill (assuming it would have been a kill in real life of course. In 90% of circumstances, it would be)
- Panzerschrek still has only 3 rockets, and it's really frustrating when even 3 hits (supremely difficult to achieve at distance) aren't enough to finish a tank.
- Panzerschrek typically is only found at main bases (eg. St. Lo, Falaise Pocket). Bear in mind this means anyone using a schrek @ St. Lambert flag or Les Foulons, for instance, has traveled for several minutes to get where he is, and done a sufficiently-admirable job of avoiding all mortar, artillery, rifle, enemy tank etc. fire. To do all this and watch your rocket consistently bounce uselessly off a tank's ass like a snowball thumping off a blind girl's face is disheartening.

To be fair, I completely understand that the game needs to be balanced and some things are (and should be) toughened up or watered down slightly to keep the game fun. I also know, and I can't stress this enough, that I'd rather have the schrek/fausts/zooks as they are (weaker than they should be), than to have them all be lazer-guided missiles that kill everything with 1 shot (overpowered), because it means more to make a difficult kill than a bunch of easy ones. If everyone can do it easily all the time, like throwing a grenade into a trench, then it wouldn't mean anything when you do it perfectly. I definitely don't want that. But as it stands now, killing a tank at long range with the Panzerschrek is a noteworthy achievement, it's just that it's for the wrong reasons. It's memorable because now you have the added coin flip of whether it will do the damage it's supposed to or not, when really, just getting your timing right and aiming cherry fine should be enough. I feel like when I hit a Sherman with a schrek from 100+ meters, I should award myself an honorary kill, even though I usually don't actually destroy the enemy vehicle. If you hit the applique armor then fair enough, a good player will learn to aim for spots of the tank without tracks and extra wheels, but there ain't no applique armor on a half-track, despite the fact it seems like every American I see zooming across a field in his Purple Heart Box has re-enforced the armor with ten inches of fucking diamond.

I should state very quickly that for the record, I don't mind the unreliability of some aspects of tanking/anti-tank work in FH2.45. The fact that not *everything* is an instant kill is okay with me. Every so often, as in real life, the stars align in the right way, and what should happen on paper doesn't necessarily translate to the battlefield. But with the Panzerschrek, it happens so rarely as to be thoroughly irritating.

You have to..

1 ) Be on the Germans, which isn't always possible
2 ) Hope no one took the schrek (good luck getting your hands on it with 55 players on your team)
3 ) Sneak through usually a very long distance and somehow manage to stay alive
4 ) Locate a tank before he sees you and one HE shell splatters you across the Normandy countryside
5 ) Take up a good hunting location
6 ) Estimate the tank's movement and trajectory (i.e. guessing where he will be in 5 seconds. Hint: he will probably be laughing)
7 ) Bring up the sights and start counting Mississippis
8 ) Spit out a quick prayer, since you can't see anything besides a green smudge in green grass through your green iron sights
9 ) Fire away, hope you've steadied the sway, hope the tank hasn't randomly stopped moving, and so on

At this point, when you've done all this while avoiding enemy fire (and on the 128 server, the even more deadly teammate fire), it seems just a little unfair that you should also need to trust the game mechanics to grant you a kill, when you have painstakingly earned it. At this point in the story, as you sit in a bush with a giant green dildo slung over your shoulder, watching 88mm kisses bounce off the papier mache side armor of Sherman, it doesn't seem right that you don't so much have to hope for Lady Luck to smile on you, as you instead have to hope for her to strip naked and bend over the nearest hedge for you.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-11-2012, 12:11:34
Lightning stated somewhere else that the coding of the Shreck is indeed bugged or wrong. Other guys mentioned that they can 1s1K a Churchill  with it, so there might be a problem with the armor materials of the Sherman and how they react to certain shells.

The problem with PzFaust 30 is, that the projectile is extremely slow, thus leading to more bouncing shots especialy on little slopes. Who ever tries to kill a Sherman with a Panzerfaust 30 to the rear armor has a death wish. The chance that you bounce off a little object (wrench, sandbag ...) or don't deal enough damage is so high, that I wouldn't ever think about it. My advise: learn to aim and always engage from the side ;D. 100% 1S1K. With the Panzerfaust 60 or 100 the projectile is fast enough to not bounce off. Have you ever tried to kill a Sherman with a 105 mm HEAT shell of the StuH or the Wespe, if the Sherman is in movement? A pain in the ass, as I can tell you and the same problem as with the Panzerfaust 30 (slow shell etc). Always wait untill the enemy isn't in movement.

Since the anglemod was introduced in 2.4 Faust shots tend to bounce off from the rear armor of tanks. But that's the case for all weapons. I always try to enage a tank from the side, never from the rear. Some of tanks have even stronger rear armor than side armor.

Despite all this should a hit by a Panzerfaust disable the tank. In FH2 this means a kill. Same applies for the Shreck. As infantry playing agaist tanks is quite frustarting and difficult, I see no point in punishing the tank hunters even more and not rewarding them for patience and good aiming.   
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Slayer on 03-11-2012, 13:11:40
Nice read, Andrew, almost poetry what you wrote :)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Surfbird on 03-11-2012, 14:11:41
Nice read indeed and thanks for explaining the issues with the Panzerfaust and sloped armor 5hitm4k3r. Now that you say it, I notice I usually succesfully killed Shermans with a shot to the side of them, not with shots to the rear.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 13-11-2012, 13:11:15
Faust and Schreck shots usually does less damage if you fire into a moving Sherman. I don't know if it's related to angle mod, but if you shoot moving tanks with those, they more likely burn.

Also, another thing I might add, is the dreadful tank reverse speeds.(Not in plain field of course.) But even the smallest hill could led you in tears if you try to back up. 
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 02-12-2012, 17:12:21
I made a short video about the problems I think occur in 2.45.

The first engagement is between me in the StuG IV versus a M4A1 Sherman on short range.

Problem: The to strong frontal armour of the Shermans even at short range.


The second engagement shows me in the Panther versus 2 Shermans and one Cromwell at range.

Problem: The range modifier - I hit one Sherman 2 times,  one Sherman 1 time and the Cromwell also 1 time to no effect with my Panther. Even for experienced players it´s hard to hit anything on thse ranges, so you should not get punished for hitting those tiny targets. I had to close in to fight the allied tanks, to get immediately shot to pieces by the players that should be dead. Gloeckner is not pleased by the fact I bailed - but I got out of the situation. He should have been knocked out before anyway ^^.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7OUIp63kXM&list=HL1354466034&feature=mh_lolz
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 02-12-2012, 19:12:19
The hell the Stug is onehot for the 76 Sherman!? While at the same range you cant kill the Sherman with one shot nice.

Yeah alright I have to say the second part of the video cant explainmuch since the Shermans are very far away and you could have hit them anywhere.

And yeah bailing is for losers! Hate it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 02-12-2012, 19:12:45
The hell the Stug is onehot for the 76 Sherman!? While at the same range you cant kill the Sherman with one shot nice.
2 shots weren´t even enough.

Yeah alright I have to say the second part of the video cant explainmuch since the Shermans are very far away and you could have hit them anywhere.
With a Panthers gun it shouldn´t matter. You clearly get the red hit indicators. Even frontal hits should do the job. Same goes for Fireflies etc. My point is I play this game for years and I might say I´m experienced and quite good at aiming. You see it´s not really easy to hit anything and then you don´t even get rewarded.

And yeah bailing is for losers! Hate it.
A lot more common with version 2.45. This however wasn´t a case of senseless bailing in the middle of nowhere. I got out alife and surfived and could attack the flag as infantry. Gloeckner should have been toast anyway.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kuupperi on 03-12-2012, 18:12:02
About bailing: why would you stay inside a tank that is about to explode by the next hit? I have destroyed several abandoned tanks and I have no problem with that. People keep whining about bailing because they don't get the scores they "deserve". Why not just be glad you took the enemy vehicle down?

Picture this; you are inside a vehicle, you get hit, your vehicle's health bar is extremely low. What do you do? Do you really stay inside the vehicle to die "honorly" or do you bail out to live at least a few seconds longer and maybe do some damage to your enemy?

Sure there are many opinions about bailing but I see it as an appropriate thing to do. Even it was me to destroy an empty vehicle. There are pilot kits for pilots and they have parachutes. Why? Because you could bail out from your extremely damaged plane and not to die in it. I don't think the devs created the pilot kits just for fun.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-12-2012, 21:12:46
About bailing: why would you stay inside a tank that is about to explode by the next hit?

It is one of the unwritten laws of FH2. If you bail, you are a pussy, if not you are an accepted pro ;D

I for one bail sometimes, but when I feel that the enemy deserves the kill I stay inside the tank and bring it to an end. There is no reward for me in staying inside a tank and surviving 3 or more unlucky shots and then start to bail if it is getting a bit hot.

But at the end it is up to everyone to do what they want.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 03-12-2012, 22:12:49
because often enough your tank will stay empty and useless in the middle of nowhere, NOT RESPAWNING FOR YOUR TEAM!

And what shitty said and Kuuperis second part.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Horstpetersens on 04-12-2012, 01:12:57
Why? Because you could bail out from your extremely damaged plane and not to die in it. I don't think the devs created the pilot kits just for fun.
Pros fly engeneer kit.
There is no use to bail out of a plane just to get killed from it or ground forces.
If you survive you have to walk back miles to your airfield or more likely you get killed from friendly fire.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: TASSER on 04-12-2012, 04:12:00
In 2.45 you still get the points for destroying recently bailed vehicles (as I'm sure you guys are aware). I personally like the added dynamic of having to worry about enemy tankers bailing. In WWII I'm sure plenty of tank crews bailed from damaged tanks.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kuupperi on 04-12-2012, 14:12:36
In the common situations I have seen the enemy destroys the whole tank so it won't just sit there broken being uncapable to spawn back to the mainbase. Not saying it wouldn't ever happen though but never seen it. Honestly if I bail out I'll also make sure the tank gets destroyed before leaving the scene.

About bailing in the middle of nowhere far from the flags; if you decide to bail out there then you also accept the fact it will take several minutes back to the closest flag. I agree it's a better option to die than walk miles but this means harm only to the bailer, not for the one destroying the tank. You won't get the kill but you know he isn't around to kill you for long time but I guess the single kill means more than that for most of us.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 04-12-2012, 19:12:43
I guess the single kill means more than that for most of us.

Ofcourse. It is very satisfying after a challenging fight to get a kill and and not just a radnom tank blown up.
Ever killed Unique in a tank or Horst in a plane? Then you will know what I am talking about.
To disable the enemy vehicle is important too, but the kill has a much more influence on the game as it is connected to the ticket count and ... our ego  ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 04-12-2012, 19:12:34
And that was my point... what is satisfying in hitting three medium tanks with a Panther which does NOTHING at all. Ok, they propably all had to repair for 20 secs each, but that´s no fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7OUIp63kXM&list=HL1354466034&feature=mh_lolz
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 04-12-2012, 20:12:35
One team being smart enough to not destroy a bailed tank is rare but it does happen occasionally. Usually the tank is destroyed, either by friendly tankers who don't know it's bailed or by noobs for the sheer pleasure of blowing things up. But it does happen. Yesterday on Hurtgen an M10 driver rushed in Germeter and got wanged by a sniper, and common sense as it rarely does prevailed, and the Germans left the M10 to sit there until the end of the round, denying the Americans the opportunity of having a fresh one delivered to Katzenhardt.

The best example I've seen of this was on Lebisey, months ago, when a Tiger got bailed in between the two Southern flags and was defended by the Brits as though it was there own for several minutes. All attempts by German infantry to sneak back into the Tiger or kubelkaze up to it were unsuccessful (it was by that garage sort of house, way out in the open). The Germans were finally left with no alternative but to throw Panzerschreks at it until it blew up, just so it would respawn.

This only took one Panzerschrek, as this happened in 2.4.. :D.

I don't mind people bailing tanks. A lot of the time they genuinely do bail to repair, but your kill shot on the tank blew it up and sent the grease monkey sailing off into oblivion as well. You'll get the odd person here and there who really does just bail and run away, but those players are yelled at so thoroughly they usually stop doing it. Indeed, sometimes the amount of shit thrown at a guy for bailing a tank harkens back to the old FH1 days when you could jump into enemy vehicles, a la an American King Tiger rampage on Battle of the Bulge. I fondly remember being on the British team in Arnhem one round when a Jagdpanther was bailed and went on, in British hands, to completely shut down the bridge for the rest of the round. I don't bail tanks except when there is a genuinely good reason to, like if my Panzer II is one second away from barbecuing me on Fall of Tobruk and I am literally five feet away from the cap radius of a flag we're trying to get. I don't really have a problem with players doing that, it encourages me to be more creative and try for 1-shot kills. I can understand how some people might think it's unfair when tanks get bailed, but I think there's something to be said for the fact that if you give them an opportunity to bail, in a sense, you've made a mistake.

Planes on the other hand I shamelessly bail, but I always take a pilot kit. Serious pilots/assholes will take wrenches like Horst said, and he is quite right. But for me personally, I'm not a serious pilot (although undoubtedly an asshole), the only times I ever take planes are either when one's been sitting unused for a few minutes, or else taking the scout plane. On both occasions I will take a pilot kit, because you really can make something happen with nothing but a pistol and a smoke grenade. On Mareth Line we (Allies) once captured Matmata, when there was only 1 guy there and I bailed after being torn up by the 109. The 1 guy already at the flag couldn't cap it himself, but I parachuted down and helped out and we got it captured. Even better was as Germans on El Alamein, when I captured the northernmost flag after a parachute adventure, allowing half the German team to spawn there and providing the turning point in the battle*.

*Okay, we still got our asses kicked. But we held that flag for a good ten minutes against all attacks, and that never would have happened if I had stayed in my plane on some ridiculous notion that a guy who hasn't killed me deserved to kill me.

I don't really think anyone deserves anything. When the opportunity is there to shoot the pilot right out of the plane, why should I let you blow up my plane because you failed to do that? When the opportunity was there, with a bit more cunning on your part, to 1-shot kill my tank, why should I die and lose everything I have because you chose to start lobbing shells at me from half the map away? The enemy doesn't "deserve" a kill any more than I deserve to be killed. Logically, if simply firing a shell that doesn't kill me means he deserves to kill me, then it follows that if I bail and shoot at nearby enemy infantry, I deserv to kill them, even if I missed. I personally don't care about rankings or any of that beyond the rare treat of getting a silver Rifleman medal or something like that. But if it's all about stats, and people are mad that their stats don't reflect a kill they feel they should have had, why is it not a reasonable response to that for the enemy tanker to say "I care about my stats too and I'm not adding one more death to my total every time someone sets my tank on fire"?

Bailing without a chute, however, is definitely a bitch move. Anyone who does that deserves all the shit they get for it.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Kuupperi on 04-12-2012, 20:12:59
Ofcourse. It is very satisfying after a challenging fight to get a kill and and not just a radnom tank blown up.
Ever killed Unique in a tank or Horst in a plane? Then you will know what I am talking about.
To disable the enemy vehicle is important too, but the kill has a much more influence on the game as it is connected to the ticket count and ... our ego  ;D

Every one of us is going for the kill but the importance of disabling enemy vehicle is underestimated. Whining about bailing on the public chat is not going to stop bailing when people don't give a crap for bad feedback. Like you said before it's an unwritten law of FH2 and people obey this law however they feel like.

No doubt Unique and Horst are really good at what they are doing in game but I'm not throwing a party each time I get them killed so I barely know how you guys feel. In the end it's just one kill among others for me. Well sure it's one FH2 veteran out of the game for that short moment.

And finally nice message there Andrew. I think the most common reasons to destroy an abandoned tank is that no one is sure if there's anyone still in it. The bailing guy might be a squadmember and the real tanker is the squadleader himself. Some people just make sure and don't want to wait if there's anyone responding the firing because that might be fatal mistake.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: LuckyOne on 04-12-2012, 21:12:07
Bailing is only a problem for statswhores... The current situation is this in FH2, a bailed tank will either:
a) get destroyed immediately after bailing by the enemy tank
b) get destroyed by a friendly teammate
c) get repaired by a friendly teammate and used again
d) auto explode after the respawn timer resets

So bailing isn't a problem at all, you still get some points, the enemy gets to fight another day or you simply mow him down with your coax...  The only problem is people being shot out of open topped vehicles that are at full health... so they take a while to respawn...
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: kummitus on 04-12-2012, 23:12:35
Isn't that more like a feature rather than problem?
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Erwin on 13-12-2012, 07:12:34
Which server Unique and Horst are playing?  ;D

Seems like a challenge for me.  8)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Horstpetersens on 16-12-2012, 07:12:59
guess
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hyperanthropos on 16-12-2012, 14:12:08
The server with Bots thats the only reason they get high scores :P
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 02-01-2013, 15:01:56
May god forgive me pushing up this thread again, but I have some tank related questions for which I don´t want to open yet another thread.

1) Wasn´t it planned to improve the field of view of the Lee/Grant and Panzer IV?
   a) In the Grant I can´t see much and I´m easily flanked because I don´t notice the enemy atm.
   b) Driving the Panzer IV, I can´t see what´s behind me using ctrl. The cupola blocks my view. Can´t you
      put the center of view ON TOP of the cupola?

2) Are you planning to increase the frontal armour of the Jagdpanzer IV and especially Hetzer in the next
    patch? We have Shermans taking 75mm hits, even without range modifier.
   a) Yet the Hetzer can´t even deflect 57mm or even 75mm hits, although having very effective frontal
       armour. The real vehicle could even bounce 76mm shells at times.
   b) Jagdpanzer IV has been killed with one shot by 76mm armed Shermans and Bazookas several times,
      despite having similar armour protection to the Panther.

3) Most of the action takes place on the 128 player server. Are you planning to increase the vehicle
    loadout for maps in the future - if it´s possible without slowing the performance? I see a lot of people
    (often 5+ per team) waiting for vehicles in the mainbase. I think adding some vehicles could make the
    situation better. Of course infantry should still be common - but Eastern Front would be cool to have
    (one or two!) tank maps specifically designed for 100+ players.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 02-01-2013, 18:01:47
I'll add the Stuart to the list of tanks it's hard to see with ctrl free look, and the M11/39. Unless it's an engine issue I don't see why tanks with a hull-mounted gun need their vision nerfed.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: RAnDOOm on 02-01-2013, 22:01:07
Which server Unique and Horst are playing?  ;D

Seems like a challenge for me.  8)

Any server they are in they already know where you are... coff... coff...  sorry...  ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 28-02-2013, 17:02:36

2) Are you planning to increase the frontal armour of the Jagdpanzer IV and especially Hetzer in the next
    patch? We have Shermans taking 75mm hits, even without range modifier.
   a) Yet the Hetzer can´t even deflect 57mm or even 75mm hits, although having very effective frontal
       armour. The real vehicle could even bounce 76mm shells at times.
   b) Jagdpanzer IV has been killed with one shot by 76mm armed Shermans and Bazookas several times,
      despite having similar armour protection to the Panther.

A)only on long ranges was the 60mm armour of the hetzer actually effective. Because at short ranges the guns of sherman tanks could be pointed low enough so the impact angle was less

But yeah, a 57mm or 75mm should not penetrate the hetzer tough

B) The jagdpanzer has simular armour protection as the Panzer IV.80mm frontal, 40mm side and 20mm rear armour. The front is not as protected as the Pänther tank. The panther tank is one flat 50 degree back tilted 80mm plate wich has a protection  of 130mm. The jagdpanzer 80mm frontal armour is on the upper nose plate and the superstructure, but this is barely sloped so it gives only slightly better armour protection then a PZIV. At short ranges a 75mm gun could even penetrate it.

I wouldnt make it a 1S1K for 76mm shermans tough. The penetration is 93mm at 500 meters. So it should be made to survive a frontal hit. But not a side or rear hit.

As for the bazooka, the early M1 shouldnt penetrate it but the M9 should. again same story as with the 76mm=no 1s1k
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 28-02-2013, 20:02:07


B) The jagdpanzer has simular armour protection as the Panzer IV.80mm frontal, 40mm side and 20mm rear armour. The front is not as protected as the Pänther tank. The panther tank is one flat 50 degree back tilted 80mm plate wich has a protection  of 130mm. The jagdpanzer 80mm frontal armour is on the upper nose plate and the superstructure, but this is barely sloped so it gives only slightly better armour protection then a PZIV. At short ranges a 75mm gun could even penetrate it.
You are kidding me, right? It´s sloped back at 50 degrees... and 80mm. It´s not even CLOSE to the protection of a Panzer IV, it´s way better.

(http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/german/jll70/Image415.jpg)

Where the hell is there a 90 degree angle on the front like it was on the Panzer IV? Jagdpanzer IVs were actually effective in their tank hunting role because of the low profile, firepower and the well sloped frontal armour. You must be talking about the Alkett model (of which not that many were made) - the Vomag version however had a similar frontal protection to the Panther. Sides and rear are of course like that of the Panzer IV, but who cares anyway, as that part is thin either way, I was referring to the frontal armour.
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 01-03-2013, 16:03:38
sorry i looked at the alkett model  ;D


I always found those prettier then the late war ones
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: hitm4k3r on 02-03-2013, 13:03:43

B) The jagdpanzer has simular armour protection as the Panzer IV.80mm frontal, 40mm side and 20mm rear armour. The front is not as protected as the Pänther tank. The panther tank is one flat 50 degree back tilted 80mm plate wich has a protection  of 130mm. The jagdpanzer 80mm frontal armour is on the upper nose plate and the superstructure, but this is barely sloped so it gives only slightly better armour protection then a PZIV. At short ranges a 75mm gun could even penetrate it.


This made me kinda rofl. What are you smoking dude?  ;D
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 02-03-2013, 20:03:28
I LOOKED AT ZHE ALKETT MODEL YAH?





Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 05-03-2013, 04:03:16
Theta's guide to not posting bullshit:

1. Read opponent's post.
2. Think about what I want to say.

3. Check data (wikipedia, websites, books).
4. Check data (wikipedia, websites, books).

5. Think about what I want to say.
6. Post.

Theta, where ever in FH2 did you see that Alkett model?
I still think the FH2 one is better (looks flat and no 90 degree armor).

(http://www.onthewaymodels.com/gallery5/graphics/MJTS_Alkett_Jagdpanzer_IV_pic_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: THeTA0123 on 05-03-2013, 17:03:47
Why dont you go sit in the corner, shortpants

I made a mistake of taking the specifications of the Alket early model instead of the vomag model, i confuse the 2 names ye?  So before you start talking shit like that, pay actuall attention where i am speaking in favour-OF your sorry german tanks and i admitted i made a mistake
Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Gunnerz on 07-03-2013, 20:03:27
THeTA0123 relax dude stay reasonable FFS.




Title: Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
Post by: Butcher on 08-03-2013, 17:03:44
Does everything have to escalate here? xD

He agrees that Hetzer should have more frontal armour. It´s even more broken than Shermans... just the opposite direction. Despite the strange tank system it can´t even deflect small calibre hits frontally. I don´t get how a Sherman with less effective frontal armour protection can take the hit of a stronger gun, while the Hetzer with more effective frontal armour protection falls victim to a gun with less of a punch. (Or put different: Less Armour + less effective gun > Better armour + better gun.) I don´t like the Hetzer.