Artillery effectiveness

[0utlaw]

artillery not only kills many, but also serves as a tremendous morale breaker. so these players' frustrations confirms that this platform is working just fine.

[Solifuge2]

artillery not only kills many, but also serves as a tremendous morale breaker. so these players' frustrations confirms that this platform is working just fine.

I am amazed how people like a gameplay element that uses frustration and breaking of morale of a person playing a game just because "it used to be like this in the war". A game is a game and it needs to be fun. When a tank spawnkills me I grab an antitank kit or another tank and I go kill the bastard. When I get spawnraped by mortars I go ... kill him behind ABC lines?

Seriously it doesn't take a genius to zero the dials in and watch where your shells land. It needs a good spot though, which you get loads of anyway since there are points associated with it and the number of spotting kits available (mostly squadleaders). Maybe if the artilleryman had to rely more on the spotter to tell him where his shells landed more teamwork would be needed and rewarded, and killing the spotter would truly hamper the effectiveness of the artilleryman.

[0utlaw]

I am amazed how people like a gameplay element that uses frustration and breaking of morale of a person playing a game just because "it used to be like this in the war".

so player morale is not a factor in gaming?

A game is a game and it needs to be fun. When a tank spawnkills me I grab an antitank kit or another tank and I go kill the bastard.

so when there is no easy way to kill the opposing force, it is not fun anymore?

When I get spawnraped by mortars I go ... kill him behind ABC lines?

then the problem isnt the weapon system, instead the placement of the weapon.

[djinn]

Let's put in game terms.

Getting pwned because you suck will break your morale.
But it doesnt happen every 5 minutes, so eventually you will get good and start pwning too

[kaminikaze]

My stats for artillary for 762 servers.
I've only been playing since mid january, and artillary kills make most of my vehiculized kills, if that is a word.

Artillery
485 kills
26 deaths
18.65 kdr
12h 18min 45sec

On some maps, arty does require a lot of skill and good spotters. But other maps... I just sit back, sip on my coke, and fire away, making dozens of kills. Especially when the enemy is driven back to their last capturable flag.  Wouldn't mind some tweaking here and there to improve funfactor.

[Gunnerz]

My stats for artillary for 762 servers.
I've only been playing since mid january, and artillary kills make most of my vehiculized kills, if that is a word.

Artillery
485 kills
26 deaths
18.65 kdr
12h 18min 45sec

On some maps, arty does require a lot of skill and good spotters. But other maps... I just sit back, sip on my coke, and fire away, making dozens of kills. Especially when the enemy is driven back to their last capturable flag.  Wouldn't mind some tweaking here and there to improve funfactor.

Artillery is fine on large maps. On small maps it gets frustrating, because of the high accuracy wich some players can accieve. Maybe the accuracy needs to be toned down.

[Solifuge2]

Let's keep the focus on the small maps.

Some said morale is a factor used by artillery to enhance gameplay. You seem to forget that in real life you can die, you will shit your pants when you hear an incoming barrage. Ingame you just stare at a timeout screen over and over again, which is boring and/or frustrating.

It's all about gameplay and fun factor. You want your artillery to be realistic and deadly it was in real life but still it has the unrealistic god view. It is there because it is needed for gameplay reasons, to make it fun to use. FH2 can't and will never be a complete WW2 simulator. I don't think many of those blessed soldiers enjoyed the war, the game shouldn't be 100% realistic or no one would even want to play it.

You made it clear that the power of artillery pieces shouldn't be reduced. I suggest better placement where they can be taken out, it doesn't need to be easy but just possible. The relation between spotter and artilleryman can also be tightened, requiring more teamwork to effectively land shells.

I was wondering who would play the "you just suck" card first. I didn't expect it to be you djinn.

[djinn]

I'm remembering my own experience.
I moved up main roads, right where arty had zeroed in.

Its clearly a sign of a n00b.

Eventually, you get the idea, and wise up.

Sure, some smart arty and spotter teams may start targetting those 2ndary positions,
THEN you need to get GOOD. There's no greater joy than swerving artillery, experiencing the shakes and seeing your entire squad killed, while pwning some newbie thinking he has more firepower on his side.

Its just the way it should be, imo.

The learning curve, as it were.

[Surfbird]

Djinn, on most maps, especially the huge ones there is indeed a spotter to take out. You have really nice spots to hide in craters and constantly perform your spotting. This has something to do with a special mission for the spotter and for the defenders to take him out.

On my favourite example, Brest, it has nothing to do with spotting skills. Just peek out of cover and spot the wall of the building down the street. Everyone can do that, anytime. Has absolutely nothing to do with spotting and killing the spotter. If the enemy team wants to spot, it can, anytime.

The mortar only gets extremly annoying and undodgable on this map in a few situations:
When Germans only hold Boulangerie, Ruins and Harbour. US Mortar just has to shoot between boulangerie and ruins for kills, because Germans have no choice. Either the take a way around there and defend for a few seconds against infantry until the mortar kills you, or stay in base and forfeit.

And exactly at this point it has absolutely nothing to do with being noobish or lacking skill. You have to prevent the infantry to proceed and at the same time you will die to the mortar to do so. If you not do so, enjoy your flags being taken in a minute. On Brest, you just lack those flanking routes to dodge the mortar and ambush the enemy. Of course you can set up your position more defensively. But just because you do not die to mortar Djinn, please don't think you are better than the rest. If everyone would hide way out of mortar range on this map you loose boulangerie flag and then ruins shortly after, for sure.

The other situation is when the US team does not manage to get HQ and plaza early and nearly loose fountain. Happens not too often, but sometimes. Same thing, face the enemy, try to break through. And yea maybe die to mortar or the enemy, but you are not nooby because you try to break through between the explosions and die.

If you want to fight properly and defend or attack you just have to risk fighting under mortar fire. But stop talking crap about skill and noobs dying to the mortar, on Brest it has relatively less to do with that in some special situations of the game.


The mortar is definately necessary, but please stop insulting people for dying to it, while they just do their job and try to change the way the game is going.


Furthermore, I have more a problem with the map of Brest. I don't dislike the mortar because of the effictiveness in general, I dislike it based on the poor map layout of Brest, which is just does not fit mortar-gameplay like that.

I also want to agree on exposing mortar positions. Kinda sad that artillery often stays untouchable for everyone in main base.

[djinn]

You are totally reading me wrong.

first off, Brest is NOT the standard. I never commented on Brest.
I commented oN ARTILLERY EFFECTiVEN... hey, look its in the title! Arty effectiveness across the entire mod

To answer a comment posed, the frustration that comes with dying when new to FH2 eventually goes
Experience the hopelessness> avoid arty areas > experience situations where you cannot and learn to avoid dying in a barrage.

I use n00bs and newbies and such without the derogatory conotation. I simply mean, people who haven't figured out how to survive - mostly refering to people new to the mod.

Brest is an exception. I am not talking about the exception here. I die like everyone else on Brest too.
If its a bad map for arty, no arguing there.

I just dont see a need to nerf arty in general.
Eint that what the fricking topic is about - Or we're getting personal and shit?

[Rawhide]

I think the poll questions are a bit too one-sided towards anti arty effectiveness

I say: MORE POWAH TO ZE MORTARS/ARTY!

A good arty squad working together should have more power IMHO, they are not weak now but they could be stronger, bigger explosions and bigger BAMS!

[Slayer]

Furthermore, I have more a problem with the map of Brest. I don't dislike the mortar because of the effictiveness in general, I dislike it based on the poor map layout of Brest, which is just does not fit mortar-gameplay like that.

This is why you should have posted here: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=11750.0
Instead of in /General Discussion and suggesting it is a common, mod-wide problem.

I also want to agree on exposing mortar positions. Kinda sad that artillery often stays untouchable for everyone in main base.

Mmm, yeah. I know you pointed out you dislike references to reality, but irl the arty was miles away from the battlefield and couldn't be touched either. If you want to raid artillery in a game, a modern warfare game might suit you better?

[Solifuge2]

I originally posted this as my view on artillery effectiveness mod-wide. People seem to be fine with it generally so it was narrowed down to arty on small maps like Brest, but not Brest solely. Someone mentioned arty on 16 player maps as well, and for example artillery on the bridge on PHL can get quite cumbersome too the the neberwerfer + mortars target it. And oh god Rawhide wants more artillery

[Surfbird]

@ DJinn. I'm sorry misunderstood you then. Just thought you are commenting on something like that because Solifuge mentioned to keep the focus on small maps. Nvm, sorry.

@Slayer

Relax, please. It's just my opinion and I like FH2 very much, no need for modern warfare

You are right about the Brest thing, drifted away from topic there, sorry about that.

What I imagined was, that if you were under artillery fire like IRL, you would not start an offensive as you do in some small FH2 maps. Anyway, if that'S the smallest problem relating realism it's okay to me. Just note that realism can be understood differently and looked at from different point of views.

I know artillery was way behind the lines, at least the static ones like Lefh or 25pounders. If they are untouchable it's okay. But when you are under artillery fire, the general idea is to take it out if possible on the long term.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know mortars were used even on "closer" distances. Even in FH2 the mortars are usually not that far away in linear distance. So why not put it a bit more offensively, so you can take it out and make your whole team profit for some time. It is just an idea that was brought up by someone else by the way, which I like. To me, it would definately add some exciting, interesting tactical aspect about getting rid of it for a few minutes on some maps. I do not want the mortar on the main road, visible for everyone, but maybe in a corner behind enemy lines, but out of uncap.

That's map dependend but not necessarily unrealistic and I do not have to play modern warfare to take out a mortar positions.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong with my picture of reality, otherwise I fear you are going to be even more mad at me

[Ts4EVER]

I think playing mortars is unnecesary on a map like Brest. In fact, it could probably do without tanks.