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Forgotten Hope 2 => Feedback => General => Topic started by: playeronesvk on 18-12-2012, 11:12:07

Title: SMGs are really weak
Post by: playeronesvk on 18-12-2012, 11:12:07
They are weak when someone know how to fight with rifle SMGs sucks in CQB... So increase dmg to all SMGs like MP40 Thompson etc.... make it to 3 bullets to kill !
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 18-12-2012, 11:12:00
They aren't weak, you probably just don't know how to control the recoil. Most of the time they are 3 shot kills, if not less.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: ajappat on 18-12-2012, 12:12:01
9mm kills with 3 chest hits, .45 kills with 2 hits.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: playeronesvk on 18-12-2012, 12:12:26
Yeah but much easier is play with rifle then smg ... so then make more bugger recoil in rifles
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: RAnDOOm on 18-12-2012, 13:12:48
Yeah but much easier is play with rifle then smg ... so then make more bugger recoil in rifles

Post of the year!   ;D
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 18-12-2012, 15:12:12
Yeah but much easier is play with rifle then smg ... so then make more bugger recoil in rifles

Post of the year!   ;D
The fail is strong in this one.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Kuupperi on 18-12-2012, 16:12:02
You need more practise with the SMGs that's all. The bolt-action rifle is quite bad in close combat against SMG unless you hit the first round in the upper body. Just wait for the Soviet SMGs with higher rate of fire and mag capacity.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Pertuska on 18-12-2012, 17:12:13
They totally are too weak. its nearly impossible to kill the best fh2 riflemen in close combat with an smg, you get 2 hits on them and then bang youre dead and they walk off without even bleeding so im saying 2 or even 1 smg shot on the chest should be enough to bleed.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-12-2012, 17:12:34
Yeah but much easier is play with rifle then smg ... so then make more bugger recoil in rifles

more bugger recoil in rifles
more bugger recoil in rifles
more bugger recoil in rifles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Good lord......
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Korsakov829 on 18-12-2012, 17:12:56
(http://imageshack.us/a/img585/2350/fh224892.png)
Each SMG comes with at least enough bullets for 120+ kills before needing to grab more ammo. Aim for the bloody head!
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Zoologic on 18-12-2012, 17:12:45
They totally are too weak. its nearly impossible to kill the best fh2 riflemen in close combat with an smg, you get 2 hits on them and then bang youre dead and they walk off without even bleeding so im saying 2 or even 1 smg shot on the chest should be enough to bleed.

You don't do Hollywood shot exchange with SMG in FH2. Clearly, you will always lose to more accurate and powerful weapons.

The first SMG is used in war to clear out trenches. It can also suppress enemy positions. Move with your SMG! Clear houses, buildings, bunkers with it.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Kubador on 18-12-2012, 17:12:31
SMGs are good for their purpose. I use them when I know most engagements will be short range or I have to break through as Squad Leader to enemy position. Just don't shoot a target that's smaller than 1/4 height of your screen. Used correctly it's a deadly weapon. 
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 18-12-2012, 19:12:03
As I tried to explain to the OP when he was complaining online, SMGs aren't weak and you just need to practice. As for saying "SMGs are useless against the best rifleman", that isn't even a point? Tanks are useless against the best faust trooper behind them, planes are useless against the best AA gunner if they don't see him in time, etc. Every weapon has strengths and weaknesses and there are situations where you are at a huge advantage or disadvantage due to your weapon - the trick is to consistently get into situations where your SMG is advantageous.

Learn how to use Single-Shot for the SMGs that have it (all Thompsons, Beretta, both Stens, and the Grease Gun may as well have it with the rate of fire). This helps a lot at longer ranges.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: playeronesvk on 18-12-2012, 19:12:04
So why SMG is then limited it really suck hard..

SMG will be balanced if rifles will need to take 2 bullets to kill
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Turkish007 on 18-12-2012, 19:12:32
SMG will be balanced if rifles will need to take 2 bullets to kill

I must interfere here. NO FREAKIN' WAY! The rifles are perfect as it is. when using an SMG, just aim for the knee, and try to control the gun, will you?
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 18-12-2012, 19:12:23
SMGs are very specialised tools for very special, close combat situation. I fyou want a jack of all trades: rifle.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 18-12-2012, 19:12:17
So why SMG is then limited it really suck hard..

SMG will be balanced if rifles will need to take 2 bullets to kill

Almost every map has multiple pick-up kits for both sides that have SMGs. They're never impossible to get, you just gotta look for them!
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: LuckyOne on 18-12-2012, 20:12:25
I wouldn't mind fixing the suppression shaders for the SMGs so they can actually be more useful on longer ranges... But unfortunately that's more Nvidia and AMD/ATI's fault than the devs'...
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: playeronesvk on 18-12-2012, 20:12:26
ok so make kill to 2 bullets from smg and all will be fine
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Korsakov829 on 18-12-2012, 21:12:51
It already is like that...
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 18-12-2012, 22:12:14
The harder it is to do something the better, as long as there's logic to it. If everyone can do it the first time they play, it would suck so hard.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 18-12-2012, 22:12:34
So why SMG is then limited it really suck hard..

SMG will be balanced if rifles will need to take 2 bullets to kill
on what bloody drugs are you?

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 19-12-2012, 01:12:17
Dude, just learn to control the recoil and aim for the upper body of the enemy.

Trial and error lead to perfection.

And no fucking way we're buffing SMG damage or nerfing Rifle damage, it's quite balanced as it is.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Zoologic on 19-12-2012, 07:12:23
The SMG has some recoil effect on the animation, causing your aim to be thrown up when you fire it. So it is not only simple bullet spreads and little recoil like in CoD.

When you left click to fire, balance it with a slight pulling the mouse down movement to compensate the recoil.

Always try to ambush your enemy, mano-a-mano facing the enemy is not a clever tactic.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: [QPS]_Sex_Bomb on 19-12-2012, 18:12:28
They totally are too weak. its nearly impossible to kill the best fh2 riflemen in close combat with an smg, you get 2 hits on them and then bang youre dead and they walk off without even bleeding so im saying 2 or even 1 smg shot on the chest should be enough to bleed.

I must admit that when you put 2-3 registered hit on an enemy with smg/pistol and realize he doesn't even need to use a medic pack to keep running, it feel quite wrong(sometime frustrating) to me.  In my ideal, a registered shot on any part of the body, no matter the weapon should starts the bleed.   On the other hand, the power of the weapon, the part of the body hit and the actual player health should rule if it's a kill shot or not.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 19-12-2012, 21:12:48
I would definitely favor bleed immediately starting with a hit, or at least some kind of suppression/haze. I think it's the lesser of two evils, compared to the all-too-common occurrence of pumping lead into someone and having them turn around and kill you when they didn't even see you.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Gunnerz on 19-12-2012, 22:12:56
Smg's should have much more surpression in close ranges, the damage, accuracy etc are fine.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ciupita on 20-12-2012, 03:12:20
I barely use SMGs... I like them, but I get this "bloodbug" all the time.. I can empty a mag to a person from point blank range without even damaging him/her, only blood flying everywhere. I have this problem only with SMGs, so can't really blame BF2's bad hit registery/hitboxes.

But they are no way weak, when the hit actually registers, the enemy goes down fast.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: ajappat on 20-12-2012, 10:12:35
I barely use SMGs... I like them, but I get this "bloodbug" all the time.. I can empty a mag to a person from point blank range without even damaging him/her, only blood flying everywhere. I have this problem only with SMGs, so can't really blame BF2's bad hit registery/hitboxes.

But they are no way weak, when the hit actually registers, the enemy goes down fast.
Sometimes feels that faster it shoots, less hits register.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: hitm4k3r on 20-12-2012, 14:12:40
I barely use SMGs... I like them, but I get this "bloodbug" all the time.. I can empty a mag to a person from point blank range without even damaging him/her, only blood flying everywhere.

That's the main cause for the experiences of the OP and tbh I can totaly understand his frustration. This happens alot with rifles too, but while playing with SMG you notice it much more since you fire like half the mag into the enemy. I wish the devs could look into this problem, since it is a real game breaker. And no - it is not just the poor BF2 hit detection. I have so many blood splatters in this game, that I don't like to play infantry anymore. It is just a matter of luck whether your shot gets registered or not. And it doesn't matter whether you shot on a moving target or someone who is just camping in a corner.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: RAnDOOm on 20-12-2012, 14:12:32
It is just a matter of luck whether your shot gets registered or not. And it doesn't matter whether you shot on a moving target or someone who is just camping in a corner.

Exaggerating a bit arent you ?

Point towards the torso/head and you get a kill. Its that simple.

I havent had any problem with the smg's.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: TASSER on 22-12-2012, 13:12:49
Yeah I've never had a problem with hitboxes, well ever really.

Maybe it's a ping thing?
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 22-12-2012, 13:12:47
It's the same as in BF2, only in BF2 the weapons do not as much damage so people don't notice it as much.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Surfbird on 22-12-2012, 14:12:52
Sometimes you can be a bit unfortunate and hit somewhere where the hits don't get registered correctly. I feel it's usually the upper arm and shoulder area as well as the very top of the head especially. But I think we all exerience lying in a crater while a tanks mg is firing on your head and makes you see the blood come out of it while you take no damage.

However, using SMG's you usually have to be kinda unlucky when it really makes problems. It happens quite frequently, but only matters in a very few cases as other hits are lethal and it is and always was part of BF2 and its mods. Everyone is lucky and unlucky with this here and there, so I really don't mind too much and just consider those as nonlethal hits.

I'd just like the head to be bugfree though, as I expereince hitbox problems there quite often and it feels wrong. But as it can't be really fixed, let's deal with it, it's nothing more than a little annoying for a few seconds per session and therfore not a big deal to me.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 22-12-2012, 16:12:28
Most frustrating hitbox issue to me when a player is lying prone and facing you, and you fire and hit him, but don't kill him. If you get hit indicators, it's a 90% chance you hit the head, and 5% for each shoulder, and yet 9 times out of 10 the player is only wounded.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 22-12-2012, 16:12:22
Note that when players are lying town their arms are often obstructing part of their body, depending on the angle.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Surfbird on 22-12-2012, 18:12:06
I'm not sure, but I think you are invulnerable to bullets the moment you are lying down. That's why I wait a tiny moment when I see an enemy lying down before shooting me, and take the shot as soon as the animation has finished and he is in the prone position. So the animation or the general process of lying down is the problem there I think.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Erwin on 24-12-2012, 14:12:17
If I can spray 6 men using 1 Thompson clip, no, they're not.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 24-12-2012, 15:12:30
And we still dont have the 2 best SMG's of WW2.

The PPSH
and the Suomi KP/31
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 24-12-2012, 15:12:47
And we still dont have the 2 best SMG's of WW2.

The PPSH
and the Suomi KP/31

Having used both of them in internal testing I can confirm that they rock.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Turkish007 on 24-12-2012, 15:12:00
And we still dont have the 2 best SMG's of WW2.

The PPSH
and the Suomi KP/31

Having used both of them in internal testing I can confirm that they rock.

Some more material for the Conspiracy thread!
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 24-12-2012, 16:12:00
Before the discussion picks up again, yes the KP/31,PPSH and berreta M38 were the best SMG's in WW2. No its not the MP40/Sten.

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 24-12-2012, 16:12:35
The best gun is whatever is best for you. I can shoot the earings off a drunk girl from 500 feet with the Sten but I couldn't shoot the broad side of a barn with the Beretta.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Kuupperi on 24-12-2012, 17:12:26
Sure any weapon is deadly in the right hands. However people might consider KP and PPSH more deadly because of their rate of fire and high ammunition capacity in the mag (+70). KP was quite old weapon before the world war started and at that time no doubt it might have been probably the best. Anyhow I have never fired any of these guns so I can't know how they work really while firing them.

I think the KP and PPSH will be my favorite submachine guns in the mod and I can't name any other SMG that would replace them for me.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 26-12-2012, 13:12:53
PPSH and KP31 were simply superior to the MP40 and Sten.

-better ROF
-larger magazine capacity
-twice the effective range
-Single shot capability
-better controlability

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 26-12-2012, 13:12:36
And now you're completely off topic
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Gotkai on 26-12-2012, 16:12:30
I made my experiences with SMG too and i find them weak. Don't know if it's the bad hit detection, but there were so many times i shot my opponent in his back, while he had enough time to turn around and shot me with a rifle. Although i hit him 3-4 or even 5 times with my SMG.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: »KeFeng on 27-12-2012, 10:12:38
The last Weeks i gave the SMG's a Try. I enjoyed the Thompson alot, but i don't like the MP40 at all. It feels kinda weird to fire this Gun, also the Damage and Fire Rate seems to be lower. To give the SMG's more Sence, increased Suppression Effect would be one possible Way.

Also i would like to see moar STG44's as NCO Kits.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 27-12-2012, 21:12:38
The last Weeks i gave the SMG's a Try. I enjoyed the Thompson alot, but i don't like the MP40 at all. It feels kinda weird to fire this Gun, also the Damage and Fire Rate seems to be lower. To give the SMG's more Sence, increased Suppression Effect would be one possible Way.

Thats because the MP40
-Had a slower ROF
-Had a round wich had twice less power.

The .45ACP of the tommy is a 230 grain (15gram) 11.5mm bullet. The 9mm is a 7.5 Gram bullet.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Kuupperi on 27-12-2012, 23:12:20
For some reason I prefer MP40 over Thompson most of the time. Overall it seems to be a better choice for me and almost every map has it. If I must name the worst SMG in the mod I would say it's M3 Greasegun.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 28-12-2012, 00:12:57
It's totally your preference. I can hit medium range targets with the Grease Gun better than I can with some rifles, and I'll take the Grease Gun over any SMG in the mod.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Surfbird on 28-12-2012, 01:12:27
Same here. Grease Gun is great on medium ranges. It has a lower rate of fire, which makes it worse in close combat than the Thompson for example but much better at medium ranges while it's still strong enough at close range. Grease Gun is a great allround weapon.

For clearing buildings and rushing I prefer the Thompson, but generally I like the Grease Gun better and the Mp40 is a fine SMG just like Sten and the Beretta are. I really don't mind too much though, they all do their job nicely.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Kuupperi on 28-12-2012, 09:12:56
Mainly the SMGs have always been close combat weapons to me. Not sure what kind of distance you are talking about by medium range? My experiences of Grease Gun are from the map of Operation Luttich and only around the 2 central flags which is a built environment with short distances. Due to the amount of semi-automatic rifles and the Grease Gun's low rate of fire I might take one of the rifles over Grease Gun.

But after all this is just the matter of how you experience it. I never learnt to like that SMG than any other and when I said it's the worst SMG in the mod it was based on my experiences of it.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 28-12-2012, 12:12:29
Problem is the low precision of those things. When there is some fence in your way, the enemy will always kill you even at ranges under 10m. It sprays too much at this low distance. And don't tell me a wooden fence is a valid obstacle to hide from bullets.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 28-12-2012, 13:12:20
also the thompson/grease gun have way to much recoil
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 31-12-2012, 20:12:32

For the love of God! ARE YOU TRYING TO RAMBO-SNIPE WITH THE TOMMY-GUN?!?!?!
SMGs are very powerful and need no nerfing. Just because you get killed by a rifle a couple of times even if you get some hit markers on him, you usually don't blame the gun. You blame the rifleman or yourself.

For example.
- I lost my luggage on a flight. Who do I blame?
   1) the airplane company for their messup
   2) myself for flying and polluting the enviroment and doubling my carbon footprint
   3) Wright brothers for innovating the first airplane

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 31-12-2012, 20:12:45
Damn the Wright brothers!

SMGs are usually fine. Noobs need to learn how to use single-shot. My SMGs are only on full auto when I'm moving from one place to another, as soon as I'm standing still it's back to 1-shot.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Musti on 01-01-2013, 22:01:31
SMGs are excellent weapons, very powerful, just needs some proper training :D, with a little bit of skill, you can be really accurate on full-auto.
also the thompson/grease gun have way to much recoil
Word. I also think that there should be a difference in recoil between M1928 and M1. After all M1928 has compensator, front grip, and heavy drum mag, that should make it a bit better i think.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 03-01-2013, 20:01:39
I fired a tommy M1928A1 and i tell you this=there is Barely any recoil on it. The weight, compensator, forward grip and such, they all contribute to a Smooth smooth firing experience.

The grease gun in turn is heavy and has a low firing rate wich helps its controlabillity there
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 03-01-2013, 20:01:50
The recoil gets annoying on the Tommy-gun, when you aim down your sight. But mostly you don't need it to bee accurate for a long time.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 13-01-2013, 13:01:11
what bothers me is the recoil on Semi-auto. I can understand the gun jumps up after 5 rounds as the tommy did that. But on short bursts and semi-auto, the Tommy had little upwards kick and recoil.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: hyperanthropos on 13-01-2013, 14:01:16
Can it be coded that a gun has a different recoil when fired semi auto?
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: valkar on 11-03-2013, 20:03:51
TS is kinda right, but i prefer rifles above SMG's because i hate the jump recoil, ugh.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 12-03-2013, 14:03:09
TS is kinda right, but i prefer rifles above SMG's because i hate the jump recoil, ugh.
Have you ever considered not to use iron sights while using a SMG?
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: valkar on 12-03-2013, 17:03:15
I use hip fire when i see an enemy at CQB, but when i see him 100 meters off me i have no other choice but to use the iron sights.

But i usually play Axis and i dont like the jumy recoil mp40. If i want a CQB weapon i pick up the Thommy gun or anything else avaible. Mp40 is a flaw in both game and real life, no hate.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 12-03-2013, 18:03:23
MP40 was pretty average compared to allied and other axis SMG's. The biggest flaw being the lacking of a Semi-auto function. And well, A single .45ACP did the job of 2 9mm's. And the PPSH outranged the mp40, shot faster, was more accurate and had less recoil on full auto.

However ergonomics wise, the MP40 was compact and very liked for this. But disliked by the high command because the MP40 was pretty darn expensive to produce.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: valkar on 12-03-2013, 18:03:00
Seconded.

I like the mp34/35 better. Same ROF but double effective range and less metal needed for the production, altough both had a reputation of being really expensive.
one of the other Erma desigsn (emp 35/44) would have been be a good option as well. Both had double effective range as well.

These are statistics, keep in mind that i have no idea what the common wehrmacht/W-SS soldier thought about the mp40.

Ingame tough i prefer anything above the mp40. But my favourite (ingame) is the beretta 38. Love the iron sights and the fine handling
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 12-03-2013, 19:03:36


These are statistics, keep in mind that i have no idea what the common wehrmacht/W-SS soldier thought about the mp40.

Soldiers take light weight, compactness and reliability over performance, so yes the MP40 was very very well liked  ;D
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Pejsaty on 26-03-2013, 13:03:12
Well, I agree that even using k98 you can win agtainst the guys with smg (if you have luck). I think the speed of aiming animation for rifles should be the same as for LMG. Because now is unrealistically to fast...
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 26-03-2013, 13:03:23
Don't make it as slow as the MGs as this would make this game too camper friendly. It is a bit too fast maybe. In close quarters it always looks like CoD-ish "Quick scope".
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Pejsaty on 26-03-2013, 15:03:05
Yeah, thats what I mean...
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 26-03-2013, 23:03:05
The longer a rifle barrel, the longer it takes to allign the sights
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Major.von-blitzwolf on 31-03-2013, 21:03:34
The B.A.R standup precision is what needs to be fixed ^^ http://youtu.be/4V1Wtp2Jb6k

Btw, i wouldn't mind if the STG44 did some more damage, the recoil is petty tough and it's harder to aim with than k98, but they use the same caliber, it would be OP at medium ranges though but then again the americans have the M1 "Empty-all-8-on-them-in-your-belly-from-point-blank-range-*pling*" Garand. 2 from the m1 carbine would be quite nice also^^

How do the damage system work anyway? somepeople go down from 1 with a rifle like k98 in the chest, sometimes 2.

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 31-03-2013, 22:03:34
The B.A.R standup precision is what needs to be fixed ^^ http://youtu.be/4V1Wtp2Jb6k

Btw, i wouldn't mind if the STG44 did some more damage, the recoil is petty tough and it's harder to aim with than k98, but they use the same caliber, it would be OP at medium ranges though but then again the americans have the M1 "Empty-all-8-on-them-in-your-belly-from-point-blank-range-*pling*" Garand. 2 from the m1 carbine would be quite nice also^^

wow wow wow buddy. The STG44 does not have the same round as the Mauser K98.

The Mauser K98k is chambered in the 8x57mm IS (or 7.92x57mm rimless). This gives it roughly 820M/S muzzle velocity with an energy of 4000 joules. The round weights 197 grains IIRC.
The STG 44 uses the 7.92x>>>>33<<<< mm "Kurz" round. It fires a 125 Grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of >685M/S< and a muzzle energy of 1909 Joules. Thats Significantly less then the K98k"s 8x57mm. it shares the same bullet diameter but Not the same bullet weight, length and case lenght.

Quote
"Empty-all-8-on-them-in-your-belly-from-point-blank-range-*pling*" Garand
Well this set the Garand apart from the K98k. However the garand has horrible recoil and muzzle jump(A bit to much actually) And no way can it beat a STG44 at short range. The M1 garand fires the 7.62x63mm (.30-06) round. 165 grain projectile at 3894 joules (850M/S). Do the math.

Quote
2 from the m1 carbine would be quite nice also^^
Yes and no. The M1 carbine uses the .30carbine (7.62x33mm) round. Its often confused with being called "simular" to the 7.92x33mm kurz (and even a copy, wich it is not.)
BUT
The .30 carbine has a muzzle energy of 1311 joules, A Muzzle speed of only 606 M/S with a simular weight round however. it has 40% less recoil then the 7.92x33 however.

The big diffrence in these cartidges is that the .30Carbine is infact an enlarged pistol round. While the 7.92x33 Kurz is a cut down Rifle cartidge. Up to 175 meters the M1 carbine was sufficient in stopping power. But beyond that its round nosed bullet and slower speed made it less effective. Something wich the 7.92x33mm kurz did not suffered from. It stayed equally effective as it left the barrel up to 300 meters.

So at short range, the M1 carbine Should be simular to the STG44. As it was ment as a self-defense weapon. But on longer ranges the STG44 should remain 2 shots while the M1 needs to be 3 shots. And this is like this currently ingame

So a final summary

The STG44 is fine
The k98k and Garand are fine
The M1 carbine is fine.

(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2582/bulletsd.png)

See the diffrence?
now lets put the 7.92x33mm kurz next to the 7.92x57mm Mauser

(http://www.weekendhobby.com/gun/webboard/picture%5C12255130236.jpg)
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Major.von-blitzwolf on 01-04-2013, 00:04:56
Ouch...
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: THeTA0123 on 01-04-2013, 11:04:55
indeed ouch  :) ;)

Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: shocik on 04-04-2013, 16:04:15
I think that every hit should result in the victim jerk and immediately moves his crosshair down (as if bent over in pain). Then the duel would usually won by the one who first hit and not the one who has the rifle.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 04-04-2013, 18:04:15
I think that every hit should result in the victim jerk and immediately moves his crosshair down (as if bent over in pain). Then the duel would usually won by the one who first hit and not the one who has the rifle.
There is no need for that I think. Rifleman is still underpowered against SMGs.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Gotkai on 04-04-2013, 23:04:00
Do we play the same game? In most cases i win with a rifle vs a SMG. Especially with semiautomatic rifles like Garands and G43.
The upcoming finnish and russian SMG are far stronger than the actual ones. But this is will not solute the actual imbalance.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 04-04-2013, 23:04:09
Yes, but you are an above aveerage player.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 05-04-2013, 00:04:34
At close range, a bolt action rifle can be much more lethal than a SMG in this game. You need at least 3 shots and the rifleman needs one (if it is not the K98. Lately, I always need 2 hits to kill someone with it). With proper reaction speed the rifleman will get you at least 50% of the time. This is too much in my opinion if the SMG has to do some sense.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 05-04-2013, 06:04:03
Do we play the same game? In most cases i win with a rifle vs a SMG. Especially with semiautomatic rifles like Garands and G43.
The upcoming finnish and russian SMG are far stronger than the actual ones. But this is will not solute the actual imbalance.
Yes, we do play the same game. Sure I have been killed by a rifleman when I tried to ice him with a Mp40, but it still doesn't mean, that a rifleman is a overpowered. G43 and Garands are diffrent cases from bolt-rifles, but that's life. Live with it.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-04-2013, 12:04:29
Guys, remember they removed the crosshair... That single step made the SMG vs rifle more balanced than it ever was in FH2... Also I believe SMGs still have suppression, right? Yes, occasionaly we see people who are really good in CQB with a rifle, but there's no way to prevent people gluing things to their screens, and broken shaders that remove suppression are hardly the dev's fault.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-04-2013, 12:04:19
SMGs dont cause suppression.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-04-2013, 12:04:52
SMGs dont cause suppression.

When was that removed? :O

I swear they did in the versions before... Well bring that back then!!!
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-04-2013, 12:04:14
They never did, not even in 2.0.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Flyboy1942 on 18-06-2013, 18:06:15
SMG bullets are subsonic so they dont really have the same sonic boom crack as they pass by, and thus don't suppress like rifle bullets and MGs do.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 18-06-2013, 20:06:56
Nope. Stens and MP40s have their muzzle velocities around 365-400m/s, PPSh-41 around 490m/s and KP-31 390m/s. Only subsonic ammo shooting SMGs were Thompsons and M3 Grease Guns and suppressed Stens.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: theUg on 24-06-2013, 19:06:27
[Rifle aiming] is a bit too fast maybe. In close quarters it always looks like CoD-ish "Quick scope".
Mayhaps, it is because people do not aim down the sights, and shoot from the hip. While I echo Ts4EVER’s remark about not being able to stop people from gluing Scotch™ tape to their screen, it is actually possible to be fairly successful in close combat with the rifle without aiming — you just learn to have a feel where the middle of the screen is (in real life you do not have cross-hairs as well, though it is more of a motor memory thing to shoot from the hip).

That said, if you are to encounter SMG soldier that’s worth their salt, your only hope is to be lucky in that your hip shooting skill lands you a lethal hit when you startle the attacker, because if you miss, you be dead.

Quote
You need at least 3 shots and the rifleman needs one (if it is not the K98. Lately, I always need 2 hits to kill someone with it).
This just shows the lack of skill. I don’t mean to be condescending (well, maybe a little), but the K98 is as much a one-shot kill, as it is any other bolt action rifle as any in the game, save for Carcano (which can do one shot kills as well, but at lower rate than other rifles).

Same thing with SMGs — if you learn to use them properly, they can be quite deadly. I am, admittedly, not very good with them (in fact, it is the only main weapon in game that I have negative KDR with, although it’s been improving lately as I had been training more with it, and it is close to be breaking even).

* * *

As for general SMG discussion, I think a lot of it comes to personal preference. For instance, many people here expressed the feeling that MP40 is an inferior SMG. From my experience, however, MP40 is very nice SMG in game. Personally, I am a lot more effective with it, than with, say, Thompson (although, I had been getting better with latter — practise is a keyword). Also, I had noticed the general effectiveness of MP40 over Allied SMGs in a numerous campaigns/tournaments I had participated in. People with skill can aim into upper torso and head, and dispatch you with haste before you can even say “MP”.

A lot of people dislike Sten, but I like it in controlled short bursts — it can be very nice. It is not good for me to challenge other SMGs directly head on, but if I can flank an enemy, and surprise them, it is as deadly as anything. Again, what Christi was saying about putting oneself in advantageous situation.

I agree with the sentiment that Beretta is the best SMG in game, but it is still subjective. I like the feel of it, and iron sights, as other had mentioned (much like I prefer Carcano over other bolt action rifles — it maybe less lethal, but it feels great). It is quite good in ambush, and decent at short-medium range in single shot.

Grease gun for me is the worst, but I had not played it with it enough, and it may come down to skill and practise again. It may have steeper learning curve than, say, MP40, but I am sure it can be good in the right hands.

STG44 is a good all around weapon. It has a bit of a recoil in close quarters, but in controlled bursts down the sights it is still good. And in single shot at medium-long range it is almost as good as a rifle even if less lethal.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: BaskaBommi on 24-06-2013, 20:06:45
A lot of people dislike Sten, but I like it in controlled short bursts — it can be very nice. It is not good for me to challenge other SMGs directly head on, but if I can flank an enemy, and surprise them, it is as deadly as anything. Again, what Christi was saying about putting oneself in advantageous situation.
Sten is probably disliked because it is rather lackluster assault/hipfire weapon unlike Thompson or MP 40
Silenced Sten is far more better in accurate shooting, normal one ain't as good.

Quote
I agree with the sentiment that Beretta is the best SMG in game, but it is still subjective. I like the feel of it, and iron sights, as other had mentioned (much like I prefer Carcano over other bolt action rifles — it maybe less lethal, but it feels great). It is quite good in ambush, and decent at short-medium range in single shot.
I personally don't like it, but it can kill, but, for example, in Giarabub a Tommygun is too powerful compared to the Beretta. Tommy has the clip and the sprayin' , but the Beretta has the accuracy. (The ironsights suck, but Bomba is nice)
Quote
Grease gun for me is the worst, but I had not played it with it enough, and it may come down to skill and practise again. It may have steeper learning curve than, say, MP40, but I am sure it can be good in the right hands.
It is exellent in stopping power and accuracy, but doesn't have the firepower.
Quote
STG44 is a good all around weapon. It has a bit of a recoil in close quarters, but in controlled bursts down the sights it is still good. And in single shot at medium-long range it is almost as good as a rifle even if less lethal.
Agreed, but the hipfire is still very powerful and accurate.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 24-06-2013, 20:06:40
Hate to break it to you, but MP40, Beretta and Sten are basically identical ingame except mag size.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 24-06-2013, 22:06:54
Maybe I get those two-shots kill because of those great hitboxes BF2 delivres.
Anyway, my point was that the rifle pretty often has that lucky edge over the SMG because of the one shot situation. The K98 thing was a side note. Don't falsify what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: theUg on 24-06-2013, 23:06:36
Don't falsify what I was trying to say.
I merely quoted what you had said, don’t get your panties in the bunch. You’re not that special, everyone’s hit boxes are the same, it’s just some people hit them better. ;)
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 24-06-2013, 23:06:50
Yeah, whatever ^^
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: hyperanthropos on 29-07-2013, 15:07:04
Hate to break it to you, but MP40, Beretta and Sten are basically identical ingame except mag size.

This really amuses me :D When I think about all the talk about how incredibly more precise some guns are compared to others.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Officer_Dufus on 15-04-2014, 23:04:39
What about the Thompson?  How does it compare?
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Ts4EVER on 15-04-2014, 23:04:33
There are two main kind of smgs ingame: 9mm (Germany and Britain) and .45 (US and US lend and lease). 9mm kills with three upper body shots, .45 with 2. .45 loses power faster though and has higher recoil.

edit: There is also 7.62 Mauser in the Sauer38H, which IIRC is the only bullet that doesn't always 1s1k with a headshot ;) The same is the case for Ppsh41 and PPS43 bullets in the beta afaik.
Title: Re: SMGs are really weak
Post by: Officer_Dufus on 16-04-2014, 01:04:27
Oops wrong reply