Addressing fragility,Tank Combat and focus on triple kills

[LuckyOne]

I agree with Matthew Baker too, except for his conclusion.  The combat/gameplay should be tweaked.  The PR style may go too far but they are factoring in modern body armor.  Somewhere between current FH2 and PR would be ideal.  The current situation in FH2 means that ping difference really matters in a firefight.  So Europeans are inclined to play on the Euro servers and Americans mostly played on the US servers until they went dead.  PR truly has people from all over on the same server because ping is less of a factor.  That is something the FH2 community needs.  The problem isn't 1s1k.  It's you shoot a guy and he does some Jason Bourne shit and kills you because you have higher ping.  More debilitation and suppression would be preferred.

PR is factoring in the body armor, but we must also remember that most maps in PR are much more open than most maps in FH2. Imho the close quarter maps with limited options such as Brest & Tunis are the biggest mismatch with FH2 core gameplay.

One hit kills and tight streets make FH2 look worse than Counter Strike at times, and that's what is putting off a lot of (new) players.

...On the other hand, walking a million miles is also hated by a lot of people (proved every time the server switches to any of the open African maps), even if it makes for longer firefights. But that's all a moot point when there's hardly any way (for infantry) to really suppress other squads in FH2 because the only weapon that's effective for that is the MG42 or a tank, and even that fails half of the time because of broken shaders...

I still firmly believe that more wounding and less one hit kills would make for more interesting gameplay. It could be used as a wonderful suppression tool, especially if you make the bleed time a bit shorter so there's more sense of urgency to bandage. Sometimes the only thing worse than being dead in FH2 is to be wounded, especially if the spawn is close by, as the spawn time can be shorter than the recover time from wounding.

[hitm4k3r]

Lucky described it pretty good. I think that it is a myth that games like ArmA, PR or RO1/RO2 are less lethal. When you get hit in ArmA you have a good chance to die. If you get hit in RO by a bolt action rifle, chances are very high that you die with the first shot on torso and SMGs are even more lethal. What makes them really different is the distance between engaging soldiers. When you get in cqc you still get the same results though and ping starts to matter alot.

I still don't understand why people think that tactics are not possible in FH2. If Major Koenig snipes your whole squad, then you have just failed in terms of stragey and teamwork. Skill is not only about fast reaction times, but also how you engage a fire fight. How you work as a NCO and use your squad members. Thinking faster is, what gives you the biggest advantage.

[Airshark79]

I'm glad the thread picked up a little speed while I was away. From what I can tell Matthew says changes are for the better(Not the ones I immediately offer) but unnecessary for this point. I agree. But I am never against complete resolutions. We can always theorise for a better FH2.47 and/or 2.5 an in the later periods 3.0

Shitmaker I had a visa appointment later so I had to die early. Also that was a period I was not fully here. I am for openly discussing it and testing any change for this direction.

Lets go:

1.) Sorry, but teamwork works only with more than one person. What are you expecting? You get as much teamwork in this game as you want. If you really think that it is just rushing in and popping shots you are thinking the wrong way. Maybe it is your experience, but other people played the game on a different level.

2.) Random devation doesn't work in a game. Maybe a bit, but when you start to give too much controll out of the players hands (skill!) it gets crap.

3.) RO2 is nice, but not anywhere near FH2. Better engine is questionable and depends on what you want to do with the game. Better lightning effects doesn't make a game. Tanking is bugged as hell. One little example: troop transports are more resistant to AP/HE-shells than the normal tanks (PIV and T34). Inf gameplay is ok, teamplay aspect is lagging alot in the game (squad system etc) and it is even more a camp fest than FH2. H&G is an average shooter with standards 2s1k gameplay. I tried all those games and spend some time with them so I have a bit of experience with all of them. Didn't like them as much as FH2. Once more: it is a matter of taste. Thank god that FH2 is not H&G, that it is not RO and that it is not ArmA. FH2 is FH2 and I hope it stays like that.

4.) Durable tanks: you are making it a bit too easy and thinking only in one dimension. To make tanks more durable does not only make them more durable for friendly units but also for enemies. If you want to make tanks more durable, you need to make infantry more durable, planes more durable and the list goes on. While doing this you turn it into BF2/BC2/BF3/BF4 plus some WWII stuff that you could easily replace. Lethal gameplay is what makes FH2 different compared to those games aswell as the setting and historical accuracy.

1)I was a full time PR player, I barely even played BF3 and the titles afterwards. I have a whopping 20 hours in RO2 because it is battle of brest without the smoke. I am all for a game where covering your torso really matters. Surviving squadmates is the first step for teamplay.

2)Yes. I only spoke of Random deviation as a counterargument to yours. I have nothing for it except MG42 and high RPM weaponry.

3)I spoke of infantry combat of RO2. Don't need to know about its tanking.

4)When using spearheads of attack, please tell me, what is better than 30 tons of steel? This game makes tanks unnecessarily vulnerable(due to sights, lack of automated hull MG, side 1hk's) You cannot achieve anything just with the head of the spear. You also need someone to wield it. People to wield it. And they are targets that die too fast when they around this said spearhead.

We had those discussions about gameplay alot and it is not that we didn't spend any time about thinking about alternatives in the community. So please don't tell us that we don't want to discuss about the topic. Turning FH2 into the average shooter will kill it compared to more awesome looking titles.

If gameplay is too underwhelming, then what are you doing here? I see you playing fairly often these days so I guess that it must have hit a nerf. I enjoyed killing you tbh 

I searched a ton in your forums with certain words and did not find a match. Therefore I assumed noone really bothered to see how rage inducing the TTK was(and the other topics) sometimes.

I am doing, stuff, here because FH2 is a passion of mine. You don't really pick the person or game you love.

@Gotkai Can you explain? I don't understand the point you make about randomness

[Gotkai]

Don´t know in which forum you searched, but there are tons of threads about gameplay in 2.45. Let´s say the feedback is not really good.
Tanks are not unecessary good. There are just no No-Brainers. Use them wisely, with infantry support (and i don´t mean 4 guys riding on a tank) and tanks are still powerful. But i guess this needs the teamplay you are missing. Try to join a full teamspeak squad and you can do wonders.

[ksl94]

The accuracy of weapons is realistic as-is. The Thompson is only accurate up to approximately fifty yards, whereas the SMLE is still capable of hitting targets that are only visible as small dots on the horizon. It might just take you a few rounds to hit it. My IRL shooting accuracy matches the one which I have in FH2. Any additional deviation will not add any realism, it will damage it and the game along with it. I do not think that the game could be made any more realistic given the engine limits. Here is the catch: In a realistic game, the use of real tactics is a dire necessity.

We do need more suppression though, as even being shot at by a 9mm will give you a higher heart-rate and test your nerves.

[Laboraffe]

We do need more suppression though, as even being shot at by a 9mm will give you a higher heart-rate and test your nerves.

Tis but a scratch! 

[Airshark79]

Gotkai please direct me to those threads you talked about.

Or not.

In all seriousness, sorry guys, I want to contribute to the forum and the discussion but I cannot find myself playing this fragfest shit anymore, I like the maps, and assets, but I regret %80 of the games I play by the end of a night. From this moment, I will never play public anyway, I am going abroad for a year.

Go Frankfurt! 20 pingers are the best!!!!!

[jan_kurator]

hurr durr change the game in the way I like it or I won't play it anymore!!     

well... goodbye then 

[Erwin]

If it were to be changed...

Pistol - Body 2-3 shots, head -1 shot Legs takes full clip
Rifle - 1s1k  head/body - 2 shots to the legs
SMG - 1s1k head - 2-3 shots to body - 5 to legs. (I think it's already these values)

If it turns into something like BF4 I will quit FH2 that day.

Also, it's fine as it is.

[Airshark79]

Jan, your game is not outdated, it is just too frusturating. Why can't you embrace the fact that out of 4.5k people who have played online only 300 or so got more than 2k points? This game has the best image out of all the modern WW2 shooters, but no part of the team can figure out or discuss the fact that the shortcomings of the engine, such as network, render distance, lack of weapon sway, lack of surpression, lack of detailed damage model, network, textures, lack of abundance of statics, network, (problems with ballistics, lack of human interaction, PTS, shellshock, lack of blindness due to fractions of bombs, loss of fingers, physical suicide, exhaustion, mutiny, breakdown of engines, human incompetence) need to be compensated with gameplay design, tests and open discussion!

[jan_kurator]

I thought you quit?

[hitm4k3r]

You are bringing up the scoreboard from something like 2 am in Europe, where the server is located. The game is still popular among european players who need to work from time to time or have a real life, so gaming in the middle of the night might not be the best idea. FH2 is just not that popular outside of the european countries and especialy the north and south american player base is quite small where you seem to be located. It has been like that for a couple of years now. Why don't you bring a screenshot of the game from 9 or 10 pm GMT when there were 80 people on the server? I guess you are twisting the things a bit as you need them.

People who love FH2, like it for different reasons. One of them is that it just kicks ass and tells you when you suck. You can't live with that and allways need a second chance?

I think for a mod, that gets developed as a hobby or freetime project by volunteers, FH2 has a quite detailed damage model, a nice look and alot of other nice little features. Most of your mentioned points are not even features of modern games btw and it is more a matter of personal taste whether those modern games have better gameplay or not or whether the design desicions are good or not. I for one will pick FH2 over any other FPS any day.

[Airshark79]

 Yes jan, I won't play it for the next year, doesn't stop me from loving the art style, variety and generally loving bf2 mods. And I have already played your game way more than you did, those stats don't include SP gameplay and also the campaign I attended, 12 battles with each being 10 hours(Training+battle), plus time for sp scouting and such.

 Those points were for countering the other "realisticness" points. To sum up my points, the ones immediately were torso 2hk's with bolt action/semi-auto rifles, more frontal and side armor, less HE damage with more radius, and infantry tools being less effective against troop carriers and tanks. Like it or not right now the TTK is more similar to BF4's then BF2's.

 I hate the idea that attackers lose a map on push just because they don't have a large quantity of germans and fraggers to clean up the zone before getting picked off one by one. And the immediate effect is that the attackers getting stuck even at the first flag, which translates into a complete waste of time. Prolonged gunfights help combat this, like it or not being stuck in one of the later flags is %1000 more enjoyable than getting stuck at the very first one.

Why don't you bring a screenshot of the game from 9 or 10 pm GMT when there were 80 people on the server?

Oh how wrong I was to put a screenshot from 12 pm GMT !!!! You don't see much to it, the fact that server is nearly barren by 12 pm means there is no flow in the playerbase. No one to enter by 11 pm to compensate those who exit, means that with a simple guesswork the active playerbase is something close to 100 people. Your playerbase will not suffer to find an 80p server for the next two years, but has already lost a ton of people by making them go 5-24 in the first 5-10 rounds they had. I stayed because I wanted to see everything there was to it and I also surpressed my feelings about the gunplay for a long while, and it took me about 2 years and a campaign to realise the gameplay will never be what I and most possibly what those people would prefer.

One of them is that it just kicks ass and tells you when you suck. You can't live with that and allways need a second chance?

You don't emphatise with the things I push myself through to play this game somewhat "proper", with "proper" teamwork and "proper" decisions, the things I was supposed to love this game for? I already suffer jaggy motion, heavy and unpredictable delay with bullets. I don't have any reason to push myself farther back in line just to get a positive K/D. I don't need who don't suffer the same problems tell me I suck, because the answer is a biig slap across the face.

[hitm4k3r]

See, there comes the whole problem with your attitude towards gaming compared to other people who might have a different approach to a game itself and why they enjoy FH2. A good K/D is the last thing you should worry about and if it really is the thing that makes a game fun for you, then FH2 is surerly not the right place to be for you. Many people here take a look at their K/D and it would be a lie to deny it. But the thing that really keeps us playing this game is the immersion and scenary that you won't find in any other game and the lethality of the game being one aspect of that scenary. All the details and the possibilities that it offers if you dig deep enough are worth much more than a good K/D that is simply worth nothing at the end. What do you want to do once you have a good K/D in an Excel table on ze internez? Impress chicks?

The game is a challenge and success doesn't fly your way as it does in other games, so just deal with it or learn to get better. Yesterday I had some nice rounds as SL on Brest and Fall Of Tobruk and my K/D was terrible. I still had alot of fun with a lot of interaction with my squadmates or enemies and I never got bored. If you can't reach that level of excitement, it is for sure not the fault of the game but maybe how you approach it.

When the game tells you that you have a bad K/D and that you die often it simply is a fact. Do you need a game that tells you otherwise or that you are such a awesome person and rewards you every fifty seconds with a new medal that you don't deserve? The flavor of FH2 is not the success of the single player but how everything fits into the scenary and creates an immersion about being part of a WWII battle. What you are asking for is the reason why the mod lost tons of longtime players. If you really want to know something about the development of the playerbase, then why not listen to some people who have been here for a far longer period of time? There are enough games that make you feel like a uber marine who basicly is a one man army allready. Not saying that FH2 can't be like that, but most of the times it requires a bit of intelligence and some skill. If a good K/D satisfies you, then maybe you should play arty or commander as often as possible as that's the cheap way. 

[Oberst]

@Airshark: The changes you are proposing, will result in a DIFFERENT game, which is NOT FH2 anymore. People, who love this game, love it for its unforgivingness, for the waste of time, when you can't get a foothold. I can not imagine any other game, where a setting like Omaha could be actually fun. But in FH2 it is. With the changes you are proposing, you will push away the players we have now, but certainly won't find new ones. Because there are enough games, with forgiveness.