Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Jürgen on 15-11-2009, 20:11:26

Title: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Jürgen on 15-11-2009, 20:11:26
I just had the idea...
What if the tanks were just like the infantry,no health bar?
It would add to the inmersion because,a subjetive point of view of how strong a tank is would be introduced...
People tend to think that health bar represents the armor or something like that.
Anyway,that is my point...
What do you think,would it add to the inmersion and would be good or not?
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Paasky on 15-11-2009, 20:11:43
*starts a "We want the Inf Healthbar back" suggestion*

I mean, if I've been hit with a pistol in my arm or leg, I can probably feel how "damaged" I am (which the bar represents right?)

Same with tanks, the crew would be aware of the condition the tank is in.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Torenico on 15-11-2009, 21:11:29
But theres no real tank damange, just, if the enemy shoots, the only thing that gets damage is, the whole tank.

Not bits like the Engine, Tracks, Turret, Gun, Hull MG, Suspension, etc.

Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Aggroman on 15-11-2009, 21:11:25
The idea is interesting like I already said on the IRC.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Fuchs on 15-11-2009, 21:11:18
Meh, I like my bar down there, so do my squad mates with their wrench.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Neighbor Kid on 16-11-2009, 04:11:39
i vote to drop it
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Eat Uranium on 16-11-2009, 04:11:54
I quite like this idea.  You certainly would know more about your own health than the 'health' of your tank, therfore, if you can't see your health, you shouldn't see your vehicle's health.  Of course, once you get out of the vehicle and start repair it you will see its health - this I think should stay as it represents you having a detailed check of the engine and other essential areas.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Captain Pyjama Shark on 16-11-2009, 04:11:37
I just want tanker uniforms.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Torenico on 16-11-2009, 04:11:24
I think a detailed damage system is possible in BF2

Afaik, in PR, you could disable a tank by shooting on its tracks. Would be cool if you could disable tracks, turrets or stop it by shooting in the engine.. but i think we will never see this feature in Fh2..
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Natty on 16-11-2009, 07:11:02
I wanna keep it. It's hard to know the condition of your tank as it is. + there are much more un-needed stuff in the HUD that we could remove before this one  :-\
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: hslan.Corvax on 16-11-2009, 08:11:10
Cant we make the bar only appear upon repair ? I mean, there is no bar in general, but if you get out and start repairing it the bar would show up. Like if you sit on the back of the tank and repair it.

Would simulate the need to get out and inspect the tank to know the actual damage it took :)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: General_Henry on 16-11-2009, 10:11:42
I like this suggestion.

only German tankers need to look at their health, I won't look at my health as a Sherman tanker anyway.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Smiles on 16-11-2009, 11:11:46
@ Henry, you mean in Normandy right?
I'm all in for immersion.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: sn00x on 16-11-2009, 12:11:12
i like the idea of disabling tanks.. maybe ven turn off the engine to Really utalize the ambush ability (engine noise and smoke from exhaust off)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Admiral Donutz on 16-11-2009, 12:11:07
Healthbars aren't the most accurate way of portraying damage. Too bad the game doesn't have "localized" damage. Ea rather then having one healthcounter every part would have it's own healthcounter. So if you hit a bodypart (say the left arm) the health of this arm drops but the rest remains "undamaged". If certain crucial bodyparts are hit (drop below X health) you die, just as if too many bodyparts overall are hit (ea you're bleeding out all over the place). Ditto with vehicles: You're turret could be all shot up, perhaps even seize to function but the tank (hull)  would be alright.  In such a manner you could damage (disable) skirts, tracks, the engine and so on... if only.   IF this were the case you could show an icon (isometric or orthographic views) that show the (estimated)  damage for each section.  Ea you can see that you're left arm is badly damaged, your left track has taken a beating and so on...  

But since we don't have this (tracks can only be disabled if they are set to reduce the health from 100 to 10%, at that percentage a vehicle becomes disabled thus it looks like localized damage) the silly, arcady 'one overall healthcounter' means you can only have one overall healthbar (hud icon) aswell.   For infantry, well, most of the time they are killed outright so the healthbar was easily removed there. Tanks can take multiple beatings depending on where they are hit so the healthbar would still be needed there.

So unless the engine can magically be made to supported more advanced damage systems (ea taking angles into account, seperate sections and all that to determine if a shell penetrated into the the main hull and killing all the crew  and blablabla)  the bar serves it's purpose. The suggestion to only make it appear when you look at it with a wrench (or actual attempt to repair) it sounds fine though to me.  But it will always be a trade off. Some damage one could never notice from inside the tank (ea a light was knocked off, the exaust pipe damaged, penetrated skirts and so on) but others would be notivable, be it by the nakd eye or just by the handling of the tank.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Desertfox on 16-11-2009, 13:11:02
I honestly don't care if it's gotten rid of, but If is gotten rid of there has to be an replacement. Perhaps a loud sound mechanical grinding or something of the sort to alert the person.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Kurb King on 16-11-2009, 18:11:02
I say keep it.  Tanks are capable of absorbing a lot of damage so there should be some way to gauge the status of your tank.  If there was more feedback as to tank health (different engine sound, thick smoke, reduced top speed/handling) then I think the health bar could be removed.  But as things are now I think it is needed.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Tedacious on 16-11-2009, 21:11:06
I like this idea, having healthbars does remove a bit of immersion, for example if as paasky wants (health bar for infantry) then it would feel MORE like a "game", much more mechanical than what it currently does.

same thing for tanks!
problem: how to know how much damage you've taken.
Well, what happens when you take damage as infantry? you start to bleed.
When taking damage in a tank there could for example be more smoke to the front of the tank (parts that you can see from the cupola view when looking straight ahead), not only in the engine at the back.

I say we take this suggestion one step further and remove it for planes as well, smoke DOES arise at the plan engine when there is any substantial damage.

But as earlier said, when someone repairs a vehicle with a wrench it should come back. to now the status of the repairing
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 17-11-2009, 11:11:57
I like the idea too

A tank gets hit, its like COD2... you stay out of trouble, you get to patch up the damage, put out the fire...

I sure wish there would be some way, like planes of killing the rabbit behind the wheel once in a while leaving the tank only marginally damaged or completely unscathed

Say by use of a flamethrower for instance

Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: blue on 17-11-2009, 11:11:30
I feel as if I want some indicator of how my tank is doing. I know many dislike health bars, but in general it is often the only way for me to know what is happening to the tank. Rockets and shells sometimes have bounced off, without it I wouldn't have a clue. Sure you may be able to get out try to repair, but it seems like it will make game play needlessly annoying.

I think tanks work fairly well as it is, I'm not sure why they need to be nerfed. This will just make tanking more difficult for beginning tankers who will simply waste or ditch vehicles, since they don't know how they are doing.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 17-11-2009, 14:11:53
How about this:

1/ No health on tanks
2/ Below a set point, as is now, the tank begins to smoke - At this point, if not further damaged soon after, the tank will 'repair itself' to full health.
3/ Below that, it begins sparking and this is equivalent of a bleed in humans (ie. health begins to fall)- Passengers either need to bail or get out and repair it (AHEM or use the hatch and repair it) - Screen begins flashing red or something from the crew in the tank so they know how bad it is , besides the sparks seen from outside
4/ As it falls further in health, it begins to burn as currently exists (on the engine plate) - but by this point, it will be too late to reapair as it will be repaired slower than it self-destructs, even with you in it (It takes a while to blow up, but it has to be abondoned no two ways - So after really bad battles, youl would have tanks lying across the battlefield, not blow out yet, but abondoned for good reasons - And more so since you cant tell how long you have till cookout)

5/ Shermans etc, basically smaller tanks, will thus have a chance to keep their crews among the living while being rendered unusable (For all intents and purposes) and yet, remain not completely blown up at one hit from an 88 tank or cannon shell

*You get to know how badly your tank is hit from the 'bleed effect', the fricking cannon that hit you should be a clear sign too

And we get a more real-to-life representation of tank combat and tank damage



Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: General_Henry on 17-11-2009, 15:11:36
I like the idea of having tanks "bleed" when severely damaged, with perhaps the effect of disabling it.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Slayer on 17-11-2009, 23:11:30
Tanks repairing itself is a big no-no for me.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: HadrianBT on 17-11-2009, 23:11:21
Tanks repairing itself is a big no-no for me.

You know, djinn has a point. Although it might look weird at first (and I did feel myself so for a while), tanks repairing by themselves is not such a bad idea. Such a system would serve two purposes:
1) Often tankers were shoked by heavy shells which didn't in fact penetrate the armor. It took some time for them to recover
2) Similarly to #2, a strong hit could leave you cannon itself, its rotating mechanism, the motor, etc. disabled. Therefore self-healing would simulate the quick repairs done on the tank.
3) Tankers would be forced to back away more often.

However, this idea also has its disadvantages, so it is just a question of whether this approach could be beta-tested by our battle-hardened testers or not...
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Slayer on 18-11-2009, 20:11:07
OK, I see what you mean, but I'd be like WUT?? when I saw a tank on the batllefield starting to smoke from damage only for a few secs, as it it then started to auto-heal.

And I think it is too much magic for Lobo to deal with.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 18-11-2009, 21:11:56
Well, I can imagine it took a tad longer, but yer... I doubt real tankers who had an internal fire from a hit and survived the battle, kept going with a little camp fire to boot...

The idea of autoheal is to represent engineer repairs on small damage ... I guess we could make all the heal-thing something that only happens IF you have the right kit - kinda how, IF you are the commander, you can use your assets at the 2nd seat of the scout plane (Something I think BF2 might support already)

But the main point of my idea is to aid tanks have that sense of 'Not every shot was a cook-out' and not all tankers died or became casualties from a tank defeat... I think we need to dispense with the idea of sitting in your tank until death as was the philosophy beofore... And ironically, this idea would acually prevent players bailing as soon as they see a superior tank... they'd only bail when the tank is definitely beyond their repair-capabilities...

Not to mention the added advantage OF... using the enginner/ tanker kit more often

I think its expanded quite comprehensively in my thread as an addendeum to Suggestion 3:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=2994.45 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=2994.45)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: General_Henry on 04-12-2009, 03:12:19
I actually think the tank bleeding idea(djinn's idea) would actually be helping to balance the Sherman-Panther thing, as if the Panther takes 2 shots to be finished off in the back, it would be really nice to have the panther "critically damaged"(cannot move for a while... etc etc) so the Sherman would have higher chance of winning if hitting the back of panther first.

Autorepair isn't a very bad idea as long as it don't bring it up to full health, e.g.

Panther <15% health = critically damaged    - lost mobility, can only transverse turret, "shock" effect for a few seconds

Then after a while it would bring it back up to 30% health through autorepair(but very slow compared to wrench repair), it would not help the panther to survive another shot but the effect of being critically damaged would disappear.

Why 30%? because it would certainly be stupid if you ram a fence when you have only 22% health and then being "critically damaged", it would certainly be very stupid.

but, when health is <5%, it should be soon self-destructing so the crews must bail or just die with the tank.(I would prefer the latter, though)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Torenico on 04-12-2009, 05:12:48
Theres no way to simulate Shock in a game, you must be shocked, not the virtual player.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 04-12-2009, 08:12:15
Well, here's the whole idea outlined in every conceptual nitty-gritty - Its moved to page 2 of suggestions so I figured a link was neccesary for perspective
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=2994.45
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: von.small on 04-12-2009, 14:12:57
I just had the idea...
What if the tanks were just like the infantry,no health bar?
It would add to the inmersion because,a subjetive point of view of how strong a tank is would be introduced...
People tend to think that health bar represents the armor or something like that.
Anyway,that is my point...
What do you think,would it add to the inmersion and would be good or not?

imo, it adds to the battle awareness I'd like to keep it in.

the health bar tells me how visible I am to other tanks, remembering that if you get hit smoke billows out of the back of your tank, hiding behind a hill roll is not going to cut it, unless you climb out and take a look at the tank you are then left with virtually no situational awareness as a tank driver/gunner.  Fair enough you can switch positions but with only seconds to spare in a situation where you need to reload - swapping seats is not cool m'kay.

If, the health bar is to disappear, then it needs to be balanced with an external camera (1x pointing back camera NOT nose cam, flyby etc) view so that you can check how screwed you are at any moment.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: phillip on 04-12-2009, 14:12:37
Alot of these would take alot of time to implement and wouldnt really chance the game experience much at all?  Most tank encounters are boom boom dead.  Only the strange odd shot that barely does any damage would be noticed.

a) removing a feature players use (never good)
b) would take alot of time to add cameras and stuff to say 30-40 vehicles (tanks, planes, trucks)
c) only benefits 3 guys who care about being immersed that much.

not worth it, imo.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 04-12-2009, 14:12:37
You can HEAR the flames and see the sparks in the current system - And then you get the hot flashes I was talking about so you are quite aware, maybe even more so than a white or red bar at the lower end of the screen can tell you

If the cupolla was re-adjusted to where the cupolla really is, this might help too - But that's just additional
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: phillip on 04-12-2009, 23:12:50
your mom gets hot flashes.

 :)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 05-12-2009, 00:12:11
r--rrrigHT
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Desertfox on 05-12-2009, 01:12:54
r--rrrigHT
how does he know that ???
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Kev4000 on 06-12-2009, 00:12:16
The health bar is vital in some tank battles. Sure in Normandy most allied tanks are taken by one shot, but when driving heavy tanks or battling light tanks in medium tanks, its nice to have a health bar. In a perfect world we'd have localized damage, but unfortunately this world ain't perfect.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Hockeywarrior on 07-12-2009, 04:12:34
Besides, even if you DID take out the HP bar on tanks, you would need cues of some sort as to how damaged you are. As Donuts said, the engine isn't capable of partial damage models, so you'd have to come up with some creative way to know how your tank is doing without having a HP bar to tell you.

Personally, I'd just say leave it in, as the ease with which you can see the HP bar pretty much reflects the ease at which you would know if your tank was up shit creek in real life.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 07-12-2009, 06:12:11
Sure... but the system I propose and having the health bar aren't mutually exclusive.. here's mine in summery:

1/ Above a certain health, tanks heal themselves to represent internal fixing
2/ Below a certain damage-level, they don't - smoke represented on tank
3/ Below another threshold, they bleed slowly and require a fix - tanks gives hot fla..erm, red glows to the perspective of the driver and sparks on the external side of the tank
4/ At 2-percent health, you have just enough time to bail since tank may explode at any time... It may last 5 secs or 5 minutes as at this point, it begins to lose health rapidly.... flame on tank shows this

I forget the finer details, but its in the past pages of this thread... at leasy worth considering the implication to tank-warfare - No health is just an additional idea, and if you notice, there ARE indicators
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Torenico on 07-12-2009, 06:12:33

4/ At 2-percent health, you have just enough time to bail since tank may explode at any time... It may last 5 secs or 5 minutes as at this point, it begins to lose health rapidly.... flame on tank shows this




Thats horrible.

I dont wanna see people bailing out tanks, your effort, your shots, your tactics, for nothing?

I say, keep this system.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Kev4000 on 07-12-2009, 07:12:41
Besides, even if you DID take out the HP bar on tanks, you would need cues of some sort as to how damaged you are. As Donuts said, the engine isn't capable of partial damage models, so you'd have to come up with some creative way to know how your tank is doing without having a HP bar to tell you.

Personally, I'd just say leave it in, as the ease with which you can see the HP bar pretty much reflects the ease at which you would know if your tank was up shit creek in real life.

We can add smoke and sparks, but I surely don't want to go through all tanks and add it.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 07-12-2009, 09:12:28
Smoke and sparks already exist.... tanks astart smoiking, then start sparking, then start burning

All the devs need to do is adjust the damage system, add the internal flash and perhaps add damage score for destroying enemy vehicles irrespective of anyone being inside it - Sure if you can take out the crew with it you score higher, but that should be a rarer treat

Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Slayer on 07-12-2009, 21:12:00
...and perhaps add damage score for destroying enemy vehicles irrespective of anyone being inside it

This will lead to endless shooting spawning vehicles at undefended flags. Useless and annoying.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 07-12-2009, 22:12:52
It could be insignificant compared to destroying a full-house... But then again, isn't denial of logistics to the enemy a vald strategy... Why should everything be so controlled?

If the British team is pwning, say in Alamein and holding all flags and having strafing runs and bombing the crap out of the German side, shouldn't they be allowed to... eint that what those deadly AAs in most or all main bases are there for? Besides, its in the FH2.0 video so it must be legal :-)
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Wyrdstone on 08-12-2009, 16:12:22
wouldn't it make sense if that say a tank was hit on the front and the tank survived then it would be just as good as before?
in the vast majority of cases the tank would have a chunk out of the front armour but be fine
it would make a lot of sense to make the view go all grey for awile like when infantry are shot (the tank just got wacked by a piece of metal going 2000ft a second...)

if you greyed a tank like the tiger when it was hit on the front by a sherman then although you had almost no chance of taking it out by shooting it this way you atleast were left a few more options.
You could either drive away or (with teamwork) and other shermans go around the side and shoot at it from the side. This is what they used to do taking out german armour anyway!

it could be hit many times on the front and be fine and players wouldn't be looking "hey i keep losing some health each time i get hit here" instead it'd be like "frick that one sounded powerful better move somewhere else" or "damn i'm surviving these shots but i can hardly see to shoot back!"

this would be far more realistic. tanks would be shot till they were killed by a lucky round not by being worn down from multiple shots. Unless you hit the exact same place with a shell the armour on the tank would likely still be good.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: Slayer on 08-12-2009, 19:12:32
I kinda like this last idea. I'd support the change in gameplay for this, however, it is not a top priority.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: General_Henry on 09-12-2009, 15:12:00

4/ At 2-percent health, you have just enough time to bail since tank may explode at any time... It may last 5 secs or 5 minutes as at this point, it begins to lose health rapidly.... flame on tank shows this




Thats horrible.

I dont wanna see people bailing out tanks, your effort, your shots, your tactics, for nothing?

I say, keep this system.

Unless everyone don't bail tanks like me...I won't bail even when the tank must die...unless you make it unbailable when in critically damaged state.
Title: Re: No health bar on tanks
Post by: djinn on 09-12-2009, 18:12:18
It doesn't matter - The point is, by this time the tank is ready to cook-off, you can bail and fight with whatever tank commander kit you have (I'll recommend that be the only kit that allows tank healing at high health) - Or stay in and die like a true tanker

The idea is, at low damage, you can and should be able to repair damage (surface damge, You see the engineer kit showing an internal repair), at medium health, damage is permanent (say some mechanical damage) unless repaired from outside (health doesn't replenish) and at low health, the tank begins to take continual damage (internal fire) unless repaired from withn immediately, since you can't tell how long you've got....

At very low health, bleed is more rapid with external repair too slow to overcome bleed.. Would be nice to be able to drive with blackened vision outright at this point, showing 'out of control' damage i.e tank is functional but blind. At this point, either bail and live or keep fighting blind, more heroic considering the handicap, and die with the tank