Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: VanOwen on 29-09-2010, 18:09:51
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I always surprised me that mortars take so long between shots and that they were so accurate. I would think that one you zeroed in on a target you would pump round after round down range in an attempt to saturate an area.
The current system works in a very seemingly slow way and a surprisingly accurate.
Wait for a spot, fire first round.
Wait several seconds the round hits and the tube reloads.
Adjust aim.
Fire next round, repeat.
Would it make more sense to have each mortar keep roughly the same time to reload/fire but have 3 rounds land instead? Of course have each round have a good measure of deviation in them.
Or perhaps get another fire-mode for mortars so that a person could shoot single shots to get their aim right, then use the cluster option to fire more rounds but at a higher deviation with a longer reload time.
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i will Allways be supporting artillery deviation! You have my axe!
I'd say 1 round per second with a heatmeter like the Mg's would be awesome and in my opinion might draw more spotters as they then know that artillery is a devestating weapon that can really make a barrage and stop an enemy assault or pin them down :)
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I like the cleansness of this system. You get a spot and you dial in, make a few adjusments and fire your shots. After a few misses you can try to adjust and fire away. Its a really fun mini-game for me while eating 8).
Altough id like massive arty barrages i think its easy to "abuse" or make it so apparent that it might get annoying for the receiving side ( note : spammy).
Deviation and overheating sounds great though, but in public there can be bad spots, or worse no spotters, and making arty less effective doesnt sound to great to keep it fun to do. Atleast in public play i say.
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Yeah the artillery system is very well adjusted atm. In my opinion messing with it could lead to massive balance problems. Getting killed by arti can be very infuriating because you can't really do much against it except hiding, so making it stronger is unadvisable imo. On the other hand, it is an awesome tool for teamplayers and atmosphere, so making it worse could mean it being used less. So in conclusion: risky.
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Maybe add arty deviation in and then also give Binocs to more kits. Its tough to get players to give you a spot on public servers. And half the time they are prone and give you a garbage one. Not enough players can spot, imo.
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Comes back to using mg margins. After dialing in, you can wait a few secs to have the margins squeeze together for a perfect shot or you get deviation depending on how far from each other they are.
Note, the faster you dial in the shot, the further they'd start off from each other - unless its not too far from the last spot since the dials wouldnt have had to move much.
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Maybe add arty deviation in and then also give Binocs to more kits. Its tough to get players to give you a spot on public servers. And half the time they are prone and give you a garbage one. Not enough players can spot, imo.
No, spotting should be limited. Even more spam otherwise.
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Mortars REALLY need to have their reload speed upped. This things fired as fast as you could drop rounds down the barrel, in FH2 they have the reload speed of a retarded person trying to shove the square peg in the round hole.
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Speed em, yes. But read my former post suggestion too
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spotting tanks/units are spammed, and mostly useless. But making spots for arty doesnt happen enough, imo. maybe a second binoc weapon that can only spot for arty ;D
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Arent we going OT?
Arty, yes. But we're talking about mortar speed and deviation of shots, not spots.
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You can use the mortar for accurate destruction of stationary targets or for random area bombardment against moving infantry. Currently the later is not much effective because of the long reload times. But it would greatly increase in effectiveness with shorter reload times and even some deviation of the shots would not counter this. This might cause balance problems when one weapon can suddenly effect large assaults too much.
While the idea of more realistic mortar shelling sounds good to me I think the same as Ts4EVER, to change this would need much testing with max players and most likely not work at all..
I think Spotters able to call in artillery were a rare thing on most battlefields. In reality they had to carry radio equipment or use a field phone and hope that the wires won´t break. Giving more people the ability to call in artillery would be extremely unrealistic imho.
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Of course mortars fire faster in real-life, but I like it the way it is. The longer reload is in line with the scaling down aspect of FH, just like the one man tankcrews. The spotting system already balances out the long reload so it would be murderous if, with the current spotting system, you could fire 20 rounds a minute with your mortar. And on top of that it would make aiming hell since you wouldn't be able to aim right becasue of all the impacts if there's another mortar firing at the same target. Also, the ammo abuse would be off the charts.
So, despite the OP's valid suggestion, I say: no thank you.
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3 rounds instead of one ? Hell yes ! Come on you whiners ! It's not such a big deal !
Not sure about deviation though, as it would just increase the damage radius and not realy the fire rate ...
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Here's what I said for arty:
I hear you on scale, and that was my first response before I thought it through and decided, there is more than one way to approach this after all, not all things ARE scaled, some are... for balance. Arty needn't be in another approach
1/ Faster aim and fire...
2/ settle margins like in mg34 and 42 means after the dial is rotated the arty gunner/ or mortar crew/man needs to wait for the gun to settle to get perfect aim a la the current system, otherwise he gets deviation
/ the speed of settle depends on the piece: Mortar settles faster than howitzers
/This settle only occurs slightly after each shot since, lets face it, there IS recoil, so if he expects successive shots to land right at the same spot, he needs to pace himself i.e current speed, or the shots land quite close, but not right on
/Deviation is minimal, not insane deviation, realistic deviation for the scaled game
/The faster you swivel the gun, the wider the margins go, the greater the wait time to reduce deviation. Arty would relaod faster than now, but to get perfect shots, you will have the current delay time
/closer shots and short adjust-fire spots would require minimal swivel and therfore have shots landing very close to one another as opposed to jumping between spots...
first shot in heated game would be like the first pancake... take it for granted: it wolud be off target, unless you are patient enough, since the deviation would be greatest after first adjustment. Recoil does little to the wait time, so although it causes innaccuracy, not as much as swiveling te gun
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Or... we keep the system that is simpler and works...
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So does DICE
the margins are already ingame... only for mgs, its about putting them in arty too and adjusting its sensitivity
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Or... we keep the system that is simpler and works...
I am not sure I follow why simply because something works a certain way we should avoid improving it. I mean we are talking about a mod for another game so already we are in the habit of embracing of change.
That being said I think an additional fire selection option, along the same vein as selecting AP vs HE rounds for artillery pieces, might be an easy way to implement this idea.
Again I certainly don't want to take away the ability for people that want to take their time and aim their shots precisely with mortars. However, the ability of mortars to send a number of rounds to cover an area and there inherent problems of accuracy seems to be lacking. This kind of update from my unlearned standpoint seems like something that would be fairly low hanging fruit that would bring mortars in-game much closer to what mortars can actually do in real life.
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Playing arty can suck right now and not be much fun. By choosing it you are choosing to fill a support role to help teammates. Kind of like guys who wrench, get ammo, or the rare health kits. It can be fun and enjoyable, but that requires other players to help out. It seems like only 1 out of 5 rounds that I choose to hop on the arty do I actually get spots. And then it usually takes a few minutes of spamming the radio thing and begging in the chat box.
"could i get a artillery spot please"
ENEMY ARMOR SITED
"nono an arty spot"
"canihasspotplz?"
Half the spots suck and the rest of the time you only get to line up one mortar before your time is up.
+1 Increase fire rate on mortars - more effective mortaring
+1 Mortar deviation - Less accurate, but countered by faster firing. Wind affects or whatever should be able to account for mortars not hitting the exact same spot on each fire.
+1 For allowing more players to spot than the little used scout kit and the NCO kit. If more players could spot, perhaps more artillery teamplay would follow.
When the kits are
rifle + binoc
smg
semi-rifle
rifle + engineer
anti-tank
nco
The binoc kits are the last thing people take. Better to have a grenade than binoculars.
In my understanding, WW2 mortars were about blanketing an area, not precisely hitting a 1 square meter spot. Tournament battles don't have problems with getting spots as much, but it can be dull as hell to sit on an arty piece waiting for a teammate to help you out. Please make it more fun.
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Dear van owen artillery is the most powerful weapon in fh2 already. Most of people complaining on the servers like '' mortars should have higher rate of fire, nebelwerfer and stuka on food should have more blast radius ''. The problem about that argument it can be realistic but not fair.
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Mabye make a double mortar tube pit in the uncap , where by you can switch between heavy and light mortar much like moving between HE and AP in tanks.
The heavy works just as the current system mabye a little more powerful , then you can change to light and fire 2-3 times faster than the current system but they are quite inaccurate and have a small radius.
the mortar kits will only have 1 mortar tube and be one or the other.
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Djinn and Philip, you kind of won me over. I'm one of the few (apparently) that almost always picks scout above any other class. Or maybe except engineer. I had just gotten out of FH match with annoying enemy arty so I was more in a pseudo-shellshocked victim mode than in a clear-thinking "Boy, that would be kinda neat if I get the hang of that!" artillerygunner state of mind :)
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I agree with the faster rate, just a tad mind you to keep the balance, right now it too painful to watch how slow things go when reloading.
I don't think we need deviation, because I think mortars crews could, if all external factors were taken in account, land a shell pretty accurately upon requested target.
I mostly have positive experience with playing arty, especially when there is a fellow artymen playing and you see multiple shells landing on target 8)
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Precisely what I wanted to achieve with my idea. More interesting arty gameplay, not just ballistics, but skill in play. It is after all a 'class' and uses a vehicle, is it not. So why not give the born-artymen a fun gameplay also.
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What about Light and heavy mortars? ;D
Zhis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_Granatwerfer_36), This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_mortar), This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_2_inch_mortar), That (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_4.2_Inch_Mortar), Das (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granatwerfer_42) and che (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brixia_Model_35)
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Make it any better, and all enemy will need to win is Dynamite Brass in mortar and 2 spotters. ;D
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nah. It starts out with what 38 shells or so. just drop that down a notch. Then you will get mortar barrages, but not constant spam. And then they have to stop and hunt down the ammo kit for a measly 12 shots.
boomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboom silence
instead of
boom........boom.......boom............<waiting for a new spot>.......boom.......boom.......boom.......boom.......boom
.......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... ..........
.......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... ..........
..........................................<begging for a spot>......................................
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making the mortar overheat quickly would be a way to prevent the weapon from being overpowered.
And I do like the idea of having mortar batteries (multiple mortars), it save a player from manning those stupid mortars.
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Totally agree
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don't call the mortars stupid. they can be fun with 0 skills and a 250 ping. if you get spots... :)
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making the mortar overheat quickly would be a way to prevent the weapon from being overpowered.
And I do like the idea of having mortar batteries (multiple mortars), it save a player from manning those stupid mortars.
not to forget its 100% correct!
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Actually, I do think there is a better way handling mortars. Instead of being a 1-shot-then-reload weapon, it might function better if they use the same system as the machine guns.
A machine gun system has several advantages:
- it handles overheating better (just a guess)
- rpm easily adjusted, could have several firing modes as well.
- possibly remove the need of finding an ammo kit and dropping it, if it "reloads" like a, let's say lewis MG, kind of annoying if someone steal your ammo kit/can't find ammobox to reload your ammo kit.
- The overall reload time could be lengthened so spam is no longer possible. (let's say it takes 1.5 minute to refill 38 shells before you could shoot again) Nothing is as worse as a commander-dropped ammobox and 3 mortars firing together in leibsey. You just simply have endless bombardment. That is WAY MORE annoying.
- since people might not wait for 1.5 minute in a portable mortar, you could simply scale down the ammocount/overall reload rate, or make there a fire delay like the tanks.
- I think this also could allow a slightly larger deviation if fire rate is upped.
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I gotta say, I fully agree with Gen Henry on this idea....
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Mortars REALLY need to have their reload speed upped. This things fired as fast as you could drop rounds down the barrel, in FH2 they have the reload speed of a retarded person trying to shove the square peg in the round hole.
I can picture that!
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Did you guys read my suggested implementation? It has sped up firerate, settle time, deviation the faster you fire (i.e if you want each shot to land right in the pickle jar, you need to fire at current speed), and you can always add overheating to restrict how many fast-fired shots you can let go.
Read it, then we can be discussing ironing out the kinks, rather than finding weak alternative implementations. I for one would hate to hit a weapon 2 to fire faster, unlike switching tank shells, this one feels unatural that way
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Both your ideas have merit, but in the end its up to the devs ;)
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Suggestions ...
Yes and you dont have to remind us you have posted something since i can see your signature 3 times on every page asking to look at your suggestions.
You people also need to keep in mind that some people play daily. I mean from the afternoon till late in the evening.
How would this work out for them in public play? There are people who are making a really good use out of the mortars or howitzers or Leffe. They can keep a flag undefendable or pin half a team down in a certain area.
Artillery simply is effective enough, its just some people arnt really patient or good enough with with it.
For the faster reloading, yes it would be awsome and great, but this would work out horribly in public in my opinion. Think of fall of tobruk, peb, pdh, siege of giarabub, bardia. Boom, boom boom.. o shit Call of duty 2.. boom boom boom.
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i will Allways be supporting artillery deviation! You have my axe!
I'd say 1 round per second with a heatmeter like the Mg's would be awesome and in my opinion might draw more spotters as they then know that artillery is a devestating weapon that can really make a barrage and stop an enemy assault or pin them down :)
+1 I especially like the over heat thing as mortars can overheat IRL as well.
Bit shorter reload time, deviation and overheat would make mortars so much cooler. Mortar could really use an update.
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2.5-3 seconds reload would be superb
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i will Allways be supporting artillery deviation! You have my axe!
I'd say 1 round per second with a heatmeter like the Mg's would be awesome and in my opinion might draw more spotters as they then know that artillery is a devestating weapon that can really make a barrage and stop an enemy assault or pin them down :)
+1 I especially like the over heat thing as mortars can overheat IRL as well.
Bit shorter reload time, deviation and overheat would make mortars so much cooler. Mortar could really use an update.
All agreed except the deviation.
Let's not do this to "balance" things out. If I get a spot with a moving target I like to be able to adjust and not see my round miss because of some magical deviation.
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i wouldnt say deviation is something "magic" on a mortar, or even an artillery piece.. you know.. wind speed, directions, bla bla bla, bla bla bla
and even considering this is just a projectile Known to be not extremly accurate, and fired at the belived direction to the target
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Isn't it just a little odd that you can look at your mortar shots and think "oh noes I landed it on the left side of that wall, let me tweak it and yeah boom" It's almost laser guided accurate.
Overheating is a great idea. Dial in the coordinates, Fire off 5-6 shells or whatever and blanket an area. Then have to wait 30 seconds or more to do it again. But without some sort of spread, it doesn't make sense to increase the fire rate. And the spread makes sense. It's not a rifle.
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Sir, I salute not only your firm grasp of the jist of my original suggestion but, also you lego army warriors.
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Yes for faster reaload! Yes for small spread.
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Isn't it just a little odd that you can look at your mortar shots and think "oh noes I landed it on the left side of that wall, let me tweak it and yeah boom" It's almost laser guided accurate.
Overheating is a great idea. Dial in the coordinates, Fire off 5-6 shells or whatever and blanket an area. Then have to wait 30 seconds or more to do it again. But without some sort of spread, it doesn't make sense to increase the fire rate. And the spread makes sense. It's not a rifle.
My reply to Snoox got lost somehow, but since FH2 is also about things being scaled down, the laser guide accuracy, is more like adjustment due to feedback from spotters.
A barrage to compensate for the deviation would be cool, but to overpowering. For me it doesn't rhyme with the FH2 feeling. It feels more like a Commander asset or a whole new asset like the 105 MM battery in Seelow Heights.
Mortar should be one shot and you get to point where it should land, since we can't simulate all the radio chatter to and coordination between mortar loader, shooter and the spotter, it's the next best thing.
A bit faster reload time would be appreciated.
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We can't(or dont want to) simulate tank commander, driver, gunner, radio man, but we have tanks that can be driven by one player and reload rounds faster than a mortar. Mortars in game require two players to coordinate, and are very slow to fire.
The "overpowered"-ness of it depends on how it is setup
15 rounds before overheating and a 10 second cooldown is way overpowered.
3 rounds before overheating for 10 minutes is way underpowered
4-6 rounds before overheating for 30 seconds sounds fair, but could be tweaked.
The current is basically
1 round before "overheating" until the round lands 5-10 seconds later.
Very slow, Very ineffective (especially without spots), and not as much fun as it could be. Perhaps with a more effective mortar, people may be more willing to spot. Teamplay FTW.
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It feels more like a Commander asset or a whole new asset like the 105 MM battery in Seelow Heights.
Whaaaa? :D
EDIT: Actually, I've just realised that you aren't a beta tester. Obviously it's something from FH1. :P
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*cough* Yes... from FH1... quite right.
:I
Carry on.
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It feels more like a Commander asset or a whole new asset like the 105 MM battery in Seelow Heights.
Whaaaa? :D
EDIT: Actually, I've just realised that you aren't a beta tester. Obviously it's something from FH1. :P
Haha the 105 mm Battery was pure awesomeness. Iirc that map also had the bomber kit.
@Thor
What's that I hear in between your coughing bout :P
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*cough* Yes... from FH1... quite right.
:I
Carry on.
Grr.. all those sigs etc. are making me paranoid. :P
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those 105 batterys were awesome yes, but i the right hands they were almost game breaking.
"cloud-spotting" + good timing = extreme spawnrape
specially when the enemy team only had 1 spawn flag.
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Grr.. all those sigs etc. are making me paranoid. :P
There, there, nobody is chasing you. You can check every 5 seconds if you like. ;)
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the good'ol 105 batteries can easily be put back in FH, 1 or 2 salvos with looong reload
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I don't remember ever being shot by battery in FH1 and never even killed anyone with it. They felt like they were useless. I on the other hand kept sniping anyone near them in Nordwind.
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But nordwind was a horrible map
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But nordwind was a horrible map
I am offended! >:(
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But nordwind was a horrible map
I am offended! >:(
The map itself=Awesome
The layouts of the armies......
I only played it on Singleplayer because everytime it was online, it became a goddam whorefest
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point
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Nordwind was one of my fav maps. Only it wasn't enough axis biased but thats the only minus.
I also loved Foy and the "sometank".
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I loved Nordwind. Once went 47-1 using only the hanomag and no other weapons on that map. Was intense as hell :3
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I like cheeseburgers and pineapple pizza.
A 5 gun 105mm battery shouldn't really be compared to making a single mortar better. We aren't talking about making the mortars shoot 60rpm.
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This' what we did right now:
Now look at the thread, now back at me. Now back at the thread, now back at me.
We're talking about barrage and deviation, the mortar has now become Norwind, that unbalanced map you love, this is Foy, I'm in some tank.
Yer, I know Its fckd up
OT, i don't think we need bunched arty. All, i think, need be done is to make howitzers n mortar fire faster. About thrice as fast,
/make it overHeat and require a long wait if it keeps that up for say 12 or 9 shots.
/Get pacing shots to have to be equal to current fire rate to get cooldown speed to be faster than heatup speed, thus doing away with the need for a long wait if you pace shots.
Additionally,
Have the deviation/settle margins that mg has. The faster the shots, the wider the deviation, the more you need to pace yourself to avoid deviation completely. The time require between shots to maintain perfect pinpoint accuracy being the same as current fire speed
/Reload has nothing to do with it anymore. You just won't want overheat or over-deviation is all.
/The further the adjustment the the wider the deviation, unless you wait a few secs before firing
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Haha the 105 mm Battery was pure awesomeness.
Do you know how many times i quit playing el alamein and seelow heights just because of that artillery batteries ? ;D Spawn - die Spawn - die Spawn - die Spawn - die ah yeah it's awesome 8)
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I like cheeseburgers and pineapple pizza.
A 5 gun 105mm battery shouldn't really be compared to making a single mortar better. We aren't talking about making the mortars shoot 60rpm.
After a few pages strange things happen to the original topic subject, the experts say it's typical behaviour from the natives on this forum.
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Also the better mortar system would be pretty neat with smoke shells. The mortar team would be able to provide a nice blanket for infantry. Send mortar shells on a spot until you see friendies moving in then smoke.
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It would be a big plus if mortars could shot smoke rounds at all.
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Its been a year. I am curious what people's thoughts on this are now?
I am still of the opinion that tweaking mortars would be good and interesting.
Namely:
1. Reduce the reload time or allow a burst of rounds
2. Make each round have a medium to large deviation.
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Deviation is in in the latest release albeit small.
I don't think the speed has been upped, but that could be a gameplay decision. Although I would like to see the mortar reload time sped up, I can imagine, with maps like Hurtgen in mind, it destroys gameplay experience for the opposite team.
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Imo Arty is ok and fun as it is currently, especially when good teamwork is present. .....
What I would like is that the arty gunner manually decides when to change spots. I know about the prev. and next target buttons but I really hate it when you have large number of empty/wrong spots throwing out the coordinates of a previous good spot....sometimes you miss an opportunity to stop attacks because of the "refresh" so to speak!
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What I would like is that the arty gunner manually decides when to change spots. I know about the prev. and next target buttons but I really hate it when you have large number of empty/wrong spots throwing out the coordinates of a previous good spot....sometimes you miss an opportunity to stop attacks because of the "refresh" so to speak!
Yeah that would be good, I hate it too.
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Ya. I think FH2 was always first about realism before gameplay - otherwise, we have BF42.
I think it should be able to fire as fast as possible using the Mg margins I spoke off. Fire with deviation as it exists, but increase the deviation as you fast-fire, and let it return as you slow down. That allows it to be a barrage weapon.
Alternatively, have alternate shells to fire, one way fast but horribly deviated, the other as exists now.
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I always surprised me that mortars take so long between shots and that they were so accurate. I would think that one you zeroed in on a target you would pump round after round down range in an attempt to saturate an area.
The current system works in a very seemingly slow way and a surprisingly accurate.
Wait for a spot, fire first round.
Wait several seconds the round hits and the tube reloads.
Adjust aim.
Fire next round, repeat.
Would it make more sense to have each mortar keep roughly the same time to reload/fire but have 3 rounds land instead? Of course have each round have a good measure of deviation in them.
Or perhaps get another fire-mode for mortars so that a person could shoot single shots to get their aim right, then use the cluster option to fire more rounds but at a higher deviation with a longer reload time.
Depends on what mortar your using