Realism?

[Entelin]

I really mean this post to be constructive criticism, I think the FH team is great, and I had a lot of fun back in the FH1 days.

I was a big fan of FH1, the main reason was that at least on the ground it was much more realistic than BF1942. Tank shells didn't have some huge cartoon like arc to them, armor worked properly, bullets could actually kill people without emptying your whole clip in them, regular rifles became the mainstay of infantry combat as they should be. FH1 didn't get the aircraft right, but this didn't mater much since most FH1 maps were on the ground anyway.

When BF2 came out I played it for less than a week before I got so disgusted by it's horribly arcade style gameplay I just went back to bf1942 and its mods. So needless to say I was very happy when FH2 was announced. WW2 is a great setting for a game like this because you don't have to invent things to make the gameplay work as much, you had the technology to fight at land, sea, and air, yet lacked "win button" weapons like nukes, stealth bombers, smart bombs, satellite surveillance, etc.

So FH2 came out years later and I got it the first day it was out. First impression: Fantastic models, excellent sound effects, many of the things I liked about FH1. Just one problem, by that time I had already discovered Project Reality. PR solved a *lot* of the long outstanding gameplay issues in the battlefield series. FH2 on the other hand plays pretty much just like BF2 does, which is really quite hard to tolerate. No teamwork, run around CQB cluster mess with a WW2 theme. PR on the other hand, by design mandates teamwork to get any kind of success.

So forgive me if I find it strange to hear so much talk about realism in FH2. Whats the point of making sure your Panzer model is perfectly realistic looking when the gameplay is so far behind PR on that front? Theres only so much enjoyment to be had from an arcade game like model.... Don't get me wrong, I am not saying FH should be exactly like PR, but I am saying that the gameplay in FH really needs to be reexamined.

<unrelated note>FH2's aircraft fly like jets, they always have even in FH1. Theres no velocity management in a dogfight at all. Velocity and stalling are central aspects to ww2 dogfights.  While bf1942's aircraft were not realistic in many ways, they did stall and therefore the actual dogfights that played out were more representative of the real thing than the ones in FH. This is coming from a real pilot btw, most any prop will gain or loose velocity very quickly depending on your orientation, this doesn't happen in FH.</unrelated note>

[Kubador]

If you'd be a forum regular you'd probably know an answer for your question. I'd like to post a long answer but it's late right now and I dont have time right now. Pobably someone else will do it in the meantime.

For unrelated note: BF2 engine limitations.

Oh, welcome to the forums.

[Entelin]

I made a number of posts way back before FH2 was released. I generally don't post much on forums, but I do lurk.

[Eat Uranium]

So FH2 came out years later and I got it the first day it was out. First impression: Fantastic models, excellent sound effects, many of the things I liked about FH1. Just one problem, by that time I had already discovered Project Reality. PR solved a *lot* of the long outstanding gameplay issues in the battlefield series. FH2 on the other hand plays pretty much just like BF2 does, which is really quite hard to tolerate. No teamwork, run around CQB cluster mess with a WW2 theme. PR on the other hand, by design mandates teamwork to get any kind of success.

So forgive me if I find it strange to hear so much talk about realism in FH2. Whats the point of making sure your Panzer model is perfectly realistic looking when the gameplay is so far behind PR on that front? Theres only so much enjoyment to be had from an arcade game like model....

The difference here is where the 2 mods primary directions are.  PR would be heading off in a realistic direction, where as FH2 is heading in a historical accurate direction.  I never quite got the whole PR thing, so I will not comment on what I don't know.

To say that this mod plays just like vBF2 is just wrong.  The weapons are realisticly lethal, there is no massive abundance of snipers and medics, tanks are properly scary but easy to defeat.  Generally, the maps without push mode are designed to accomodate the flag capping.  Other maps have push mode (like AAS) to counter it where it would be detremental.

The final thing to say is that the wars the 2 mods cover are different.  Modern wars are small scale affairs conducted with high tech weapons.  WWII was a full on brawl, with thousands of troops engaged at the same time.  I think the mods represent that.

Understand your views are probably going to start a massive argument.

<unrelated note>FH2's aircraft fly like jets, they always have even in FH1. Theres no velocity management in a dogfight at all. Velocity and stalling are central aspects to ww2 dogfights.  While bf1942's aircraft were not realistic in many ways, they did stall and therefore the actual dogfights that played out were more representative of the real thing than the ones in FH. This is coming from a real pilot btw, most any prop will gain or loose velocity very quickly depending on your orientation, this doesn't happen in FH.</unrelated note>

Well, the BF2 engine was only designed with jets in mind, so the prop planes are always going to have the same characteristics as jets.  Nothing much can be done about it.

[Admiral Donutz]

I really mean this post to be constructive criticism, I think the FH team is great, and I had a lot of fun back in the FH1 days.

I was a big fan of FH1, the main reason was that at least on the ground it was much more realistic than BF1942. Tank shells didn't have some huge cartoon like arc to them, armor worked properly, bullets could actually kill people without emptying your whole clip in them, regular rifles became the mainstay of infantry combat as they should be. FH1 didn't get the aircraft right, but this didn't mater much since most FH1 maps were on the ground anyway.

When BF2 came out I played it for less than a week before I got so disgusted by it's horribly arcade style gameplay I just went back to bf1942 and its mods. So needless to say I was very happy when FH2 was announced. WW2 is a great setting for a game like this because you don't have to invent things to make the gameplay work as much, you had the technology to fight at land, sea, and air, yet lacked "win button" weapons like nukes, stealth bombers, smart bombs, satellite surveillance, etc.

So FH2 came out years later and I got it the first day it was out. First impression: Fantastic models, excellent sound effects, many of the things I liked about FH1. Just one problem, by that time I had already discovered Project Reality. PR solved a *lot* of the long outstanding gameplay issues in the battlefield series. FH2 on the other hand plays pretty much just like BF2 does, which is really quite hard to tolerate. No teamwork, run around CQB cluster mess with a WW2 theme. PR on the other hand, by design mandates teamwork to get any kind of success.

So forgive me if I find it strange to hear so much talk about realism in FH2. Whats the point of making sure your Panzer model is perfectly realistic looking when the gameplay is so far behind PR on that front? Theres only so much enjoyment to be had from an arcade game like model.... Don't get me wrong, I am not saying FH should be exactly like PR, but I am saying that the gameplay in FH really needs to be reexamined.

The short anser:

PR is not FH2, FH2 is not PR. FH2 is the big brother of FH1.

The longer answer:
FH2 tries to encourage teamwork, for example with the squad spawn to promote grouping together. The spot system (spotters and gunners) etc.  However FH isn't meant to strictly force people to cooperate. Firstly because of communication issues which form a barrier (not everybody uses a headset, wants to use his headset or eve has one). But besides that, the devs believe that you can't make people cooperate, you can only try to encourage them and point them in the right direction. But people should also be given the chanche to play more individually. Just so you can do your own thing for the team when cooperation doesn't come off the ground or when you are just joining for a quick game without bothering about your team too much at all.

The upside: Freedom to be as individualistic or team orientated as you want. Which (atleast in theory) should appeal to a wider public.
The downside: People might be more  inclined to play lone wolf, because they can.

The other answer: Use the search function and you'll know that these people here tend to get their pitchforks out if somebody says "FH2 should be more like PR", they are different games. If you try to force realism you may go too far and make it rather unrealistic (let's say a seperated tank driver and gunner, more like real live but it would be much much more complex and greatly hinder their efficieny and also reduce the maximum amount of tanks/people facing the enemy which thus makes it less realistic...).  And ofcourse, some features really belong either to WW2 or modern combat and can't be copied over to an other mod.

<unrelated note>FH2's aircraft fly like jets, they always have even in FH1. Theres no velocity management in a dogfight at all. Velocity and stalling are central aspects to ww2 dogfights.  While bf1942's aircraft were not realistic in many ways, they did stall and therefore the actual dogfights that played out were more representative of the real thing than the ones in FH. This is coming from a real pilot btw, most any prop will gain or loose velocity very quickly depending on your orientation, this doesn't happen in FH.</unrelated note>

The BF2 engines sucks, especially when it comes to flying. It has been made so it kind of works for BF2's modern combatbut it is hard coded in many areas. There isn't much room. This means that the airplanes will always feel kind of like jets. The engine is the problem. The devs tried various settings and this is the best they can do. This affects other stuff aswell such as airplanes with double cannons not being able to fire both simultaniously (only seperatly) and so on. Gettings ships to work is near impossible. It tends to kill the crew when it comes into a semi abrupt contact with the vessel. I coudl go on andon, this engine simply also brings some limitations compared to FH1 with it...

The engine of BF2 brought some good things like more options with texturing (graphics) but also brought limitations as the engine is less flexible then the BF1942 engine.

But who know's what FH3 will bring. The devs said that when they move they will definately test it more before moving to it, even if it seems to offer much new candy... the limitations are never promoted or realized at first hand.  

- Donutz (betatester).

[Lobo]

No teamwork, run around CQB cluster mess with a WW2 theme. PR on the other hand, by design mandates teamwork to get any kind of success.

This is the only interesting part of your wrong analysis: PR has designed an endless set of restrictive, dictatorial, sometimes illogic rules, and you can't play a PR round and enjoy if you don't read previously a 100 pages handbook manual. And let's not talk about absolutely absurd and illogic decisions: you can't bragg that your mod is the most realistic game of the History and keep medics that can insta-revive a dude with a bullet deep into the cerebellum.

As you can guess this had put fear in the hearts of casual players and sometimes even in fans of realistic games (/raises hand), only an elitist sect of illuminati play PR, they have a deep knowledge of the inhumane complexity of arcanes of that exclusive religion for VIP's, and don't loose a chance to bragg about their darwinist superiority and bash any christian who don't know that the tangent of the line from the top of the left lung to the 4th cervical bone of the 3rd member of a squad must be directed at Andromeda Galaxy, 13 degrees to the southwest, if they want to spawn a rally point.

Ok, FH trusts more in people....maybe that is our mistake...but we have designed an historically acurate, teamplay based game with a realistic aproach to the WW2 warfare, with the limitations imposed but this restrictive BF2 engine, wich are a bunch.

So our players play as they want, honestly I think this mod is more enjoyable if you use teamplay and behave like a real soldier, but it's up to you...FREEEEEDOOOOOM!

PD: FH2 is like 10 times more realistic than FH1, so if you liked FH1 and you don't feel the realism in FH2, to be honest, you got me lost

[djinn]

Hey the thread starter sounds like me!!

I get both sides. And do understand the tone of the devs - Firstly its rare to get that many devs reply in such quick succession - Few actually grace faulty criticisms with their presence. Not that yours is completely off-base, but their tone is on account of:
a) They've gone through a shitload to make a good mod - And its a damn good mod with better detail to stuff than ANY mod I've seen (heck its a beta for a complete game by itself). AND, its annoying to have someone come up and tell them they are missing their mark when this is not all too true

b) Some facts were a bit off. Realism for instance, and how you went about dissecting WHY FH2 is no more realistic than FH1...

c) PR... DAmmit, you never mention PR. Its like saying, "hmm that's a nice Volvo, but why didn't you get a Benz?" - Its annoying, cuz "I didn't frigging want a Benz!"... PR is NOT FH2, granted some things can be mentioned from PR as suggestions, but not for FH to be more like PR - cuz it frigging isn't

Also, I must say, I appreciate the reason for the concern more than the concern itself. The wepaon loadout and balancing is perfect - Moreso realistic than FH1 - you don't use health bars, and this done with an arcade engine like BF2. Deployable weapons more realistic, being able to deploy them anywhere

The neccesary animation for everything - Ever noted the hand change when reloading a Bren gun
So, no FH2 is not as arcade as FH1, and DEFINITELY not close to BF2... Heck, the level of detail in graphics for FH2 is astonishing compared to its predecessor, and to any mod, including PR

Like the devs said, FH and FH2 is designed to balance gameplay and realism, not make realism completely - Ony the reviews and game sites accidently classify FH that way

You have not gotten an answer, you may think - MOre a defense, right? Well, the reason is, cuz like the devs said, use the search (And I know its harder done than said, since the answer is all over the site and Filefront tinclusive, but that's why each respondent, including myself has been that complete in their response)

And yes, the aircrafts ARE the biggest dissapointments courtesy of the engine. I know, and don't quote me. but I'm sure the devs are doing everything to make tanks and planes more realistic and each version of FH would shape up more and more like what its supposed to be. You should have seen FH0.6 compared to FH0.7 and the difference in how planes handled between versions...

 But it takes time - That's the difference between fans of games and fans of games who are also mod fans: The latter are aware that the mod is, and always will be a work in progress. It's seeing it mature that makes it fun

[sheikyerbouti]

 To every single person who says that Project Reality is more realistic, I ask of them one single question.


How many rocks did Al Qaeda throw at the World Trade Centre in New York?

 PR is totally balanced towards the "America, fuck yeah" attitude which is fine by me but it is unfair to make such a comparison to FH2. I find that Forgotten Hope 2 has been much more accountable towards the capabilities of the individual soldier in the field as this mod relies more on skill and veterancy than would meet the eye.

 I also disagree with the idea that teamwork is abundant in PR over Fh2 as you are welcome to join a squad and follow orders but nobody is forcing you to join a squad like they do in so many PR servers. Teamwork in FH2 is voluntary as opposed to mandated, and as Geddy Lee sang " I will choose free will"...

 I also find that FH has put more thought into engagement scenario's insofar as they are historically accountable while still allowing for decent game replay value.  I have yet to play a PR map that was actually historically (and therefore realistically) based as opposed to the influence from popular media that their maps generally tend to reflect.

[azreal]

Firstly its rare to get that many devs reply in such quick succession

Thats because they only come out of their lairs to yell at players who want FH2 to implement features of PR. But I think Donitz summed it up pretty good.

[Lobo]

c) PR... DAmmit, you never mention PR. Its like saying, "hmm that's a nice Volvo, but why didn't you get a Benz?" - Its annoying, cuz "I didn't frigging want a Benz!"... PR is NOT FH2, granted some things can be mentioned from PR as suggestions, but not for FH to be more like PR - cuz it frigging isn't

Yeah, but let's say PR is a BMW late model and you must read seven manuals to operate the DVD, the blue-ray, the GPS, etc, etc, etc, and FH2 is a Ferrari 308 GTS...hate it or love it

@Azrael, oh yeah, to be honest I ran out of patience long time ago, I remember dudes requesting us to implement PR AAS gamemode when that's a simple adaptation of our gamemode Push, created by US like 5 years ago or more...I mean...c'mon!

[[130.Pz]I.Kluge]

As much as I love FH2, it feels (To me) to much of an arcade when it comes to the squad  spawning.
*The whole hiding to get an advantage, infinite defenders, and wave(s) of attacks that come in 5 only to slowly come in streams of two in an never ending cycle.
This is my only beef with FH2.

-Omaha Beach Charlie Sector
I remember how people would assemble and make a run for the beach wall.
People would type "Get to the wall!" and slowly would mass up and charge as the nebelwerfer zeroed in.
Capture one bunker and the other would follow, and little by little the Germans would be pushed to their last flag.

The whole team working as a one.
FH2 has squads which is nice, but each one goes their own way. If there were away to or make it feel as there are platoons it would be nice, but.... engine limitations.
Or at least take out SL spawning ability within flags for both sides.
The SL spawning is good to assemble and keep up a fast pace, but..*yeah.

[elander]

-Omaha Beach Charlie Sector
I remember how people would assemble and make a run for the beach wall.
People would type "Get to the wall!" and slowly would mass up and charge as the nebelwerfer zeroed in.
Capture one bunker and the other would follow, and little by little the Germans would be pushed to their last flag.

The whole team working as a one.
FH2 has squads which is nice, but each one goes their own way. If there were away to or make it feel as there are platoons it would be nice, but.... engine limitations.
Or at least take out SL spawning ability within flags for both sides.
The SL spawning is good to assemble and keep up a fast pace, but..*yeah.

Omg... Think of Forgotten Honor Tournament... all companys working as one on the beach... so will the germans.. damn.. a bloddy blod bath

[Admiral Donutz]

To every single person who says that Project Reality is more realistic, I ask of them one single question.


How many rocks did Al Qaeda throw at the World Trade Centre in New York?

 PR is totally balanced towards the "America, fuck yeah" attitude which is fine by me but it is unfair to make such a comparison to FH2. I find that Forgotten Hope 2 has been much more accountable towards the capabilities of the individual soldier in the field as this mod relies more on skill and veterancy than would meet the eye.

 I also disagree with the idea that teamwork is abundant in PR over Fh2 as you are welcome to join a squad and follow orders but nobody is forcing you to join a squad like they do in so many PR servers. Teamwork in FH2 is voluntary as opposed to mandated, and as Geddy Lee sang " I will choose free will"...

 I also find that FH has put more thought into engagement scenario's insofar as they are historically accountable while still allowing for decent game replay value.  I have yet to play a PR map that was actually historically (and therefore realistically) based as opposed to the influence from popular media that their maps generally tend to reflect.

I never played PR, I never will, I disliek modern combat, you'll have to force me to play modern combat games with a gun (preferably a nice old WW2 one... or no... I'd assault you and take the weapon home... make it a modern piece of shit).  My point is I'm taking a wild guess here but could it be that it's "all about the Americans"  because they realisticaly got the better equipment and all? With the flawed cocnept of hardcore realism one side would get Abram tanks, predators, night goggles and all the other stuff while the other side gets obsolete AK47's, rocketlaunchers and a crappy old car to drive around in. As for the maps, I'd think that with their concept they'de pick out realistic not too wel known battlegrounds with one or two "populist" battlegrounds thrown in which may not accurately represent the combat overall.

But too much talk about PR... about FH. Uhm... I don't have much to add. Well mabe that FH and PR aren't what Volvo and Mercedes Benz are to eachother.

[azreal]

You know Donitz, you could always play PR as an insurgent with the No4 they borrowed from FH2...that could be close to WWII combat

[von.small]

To every single person who says that Project Reality is more realistic, I ask of them one single question.


How many rocks did Al Qaeda throw at the World Trade Centre in New York?

 PR is totally balanced towards the "America, fuck yeah" attitude which is fine by me but it is unfair to make such a comparison to FH2. I find that Forgotten Hope 2 has been much more accountable towards the capabilities of the individual soldier in the field as this mod relies more on skill and veterancy than would meet the eye.

 I also disagree with the idea that teamwork is abundant in PR over Fh2 as you are welcome to join a squad and follow orders but nobody is forcing you to join a squad like they do in so many PR servers. Teamwork in FH2 is voluntary as opposed to mandated, and as Geddy Lee sang " I will choose free will"...

 I also find that FH has put more thought into engagement scenario's insofar as they are historically accountable while still allowing for decent game replay value.  I have yet to play a PR map that was actually historically (and therefore realistically) based as opposed to the influence from popular media that their maps generally tend to reflect.

I read this thread up to your post, it encapsulates everything I think. 

I've played only a handful of FH2 rounds where I am not part of some team completing some objective.  there are at least 3 forum regulars here and at least 4 public players that I know of including myself that organise team play during a round as a squad leader.  If you're in my squad we might not do well, we might not win the round but you better get used to reading orders - I request that my squad group up and attack from rally points not "go get that flag, go get this flag" - I don't need a ****ing PR rally point to make a rally point I hunker down and defend myself and my team mates with whatever I have, at times it's boring, but when I see them take a flag convincingly, and not through obnoxious force like nade spamming, I comment how well they did, their reaction is to follow me into even tougher situations, when they die I cry, when they suceed I woot.