Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: evhgear on 16-02-2011, 19:02:10
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Well, as the name of my topic says, I found that grenades are simply abusively over used on certain maps and it simply broke the gameplay and fun. Sometimes on certain maps like PdH or PHL, almost 1/2 of all kills are done by grenades(wich make about a total of 200kills per map), wich simply sucks.
I don't have all the knowledge of Murda in WWII History(Murda and WWII are the same person :P) but I don't think that all infantry soldiers where having 3 grenades with them. My suggestion is to only put grenades in the infantry kit with SMG, not the rifle kit. In Ramelle it work like that and in my memories this map doesn't turn in a grenade festival.
Another thing is about the range of german grenades. I simply found that this grenade can by thrown way too far. IRL, this grenade can be thrown at a range of about 30-40yards, but in game it more like 80yards. It arrives often that throwers are out of the range of SMG, wich it's simply ridiculous. Since grenades are defensive weapons, they should not be a weapon to kill people at about 100yards of the thrower. So simply reduce the range of grenades for all countries(even if mills bomb have IRL a range of about 30yards) and maybe their power since grenades in game have a quite large killing radius.
That's only my opinion, maybe I'm the only one to think that, but give yours, I want to see what people think of grenades.
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Mudra actually fought on every front, for every army, in every regiment and divison in the Second World War... 5 times.
In terms of the grenades the mapper decides what maps they should be on, for example i think Brest doesn't have any grenades (?).
I think the problem isn't with how many grenades people have, but with how many people have grenades on maps. So I suppose yes, giving grenades to only limited kits could be an option, but i assume FH is trying to represent a rifleman's true load out.
In terms of how far they can be thrown... Yes I suppose they do seem to be thrown quite a great distance but as I have never handled a full-weight grenade I don't know how far they can realistically be thrown..
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5 times officialy. There where also cover operations. Mudra is btw also chuck norris 1st student.
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Well, i dont know who is this Murda guy. I know Mudra but Murda? No clue.
There shall be less Grenades, sometimes i feel im nuking a flag with grenades..
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Personally i dont mind the amount of grenades. What i do mind is the rate you get resupplied with them.
One guy sitting at an ammo box and spamming mills bombs and Stielgranates.....awefull
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Having thrown reproduction stick nades weighted to weigh the same as a real German stick nade, I can say that the range they have ingame is, if anything, too little. The stick design was specifically used to give it an incredible range over the egg style nades. This is due, essentially, to different tactically doctrine. The Germans, starting WW1, saw grenades as offensive weapons. Thus they have little shrapnel, large explosive potential, and can be thrown quite far. Egg grenades are of a defensive type, that is, its hard to throw them far enough that you'll be out of danger. Thus, they usually have a small charge with lots of metal and shrapnel potential, and are meant to be thrown from a position of cover (thus a 'defensive' grenade).
Also, ingame, that's about 40 yards you're throwing the stick nade, not 100. You aren't a very good judge of distance dude. :P
On the use of grenades, grenades were used almost more than rifles in the attack, especially by the Germans. Stosstrupp in WW1, and pionier/FJ-pionier in WW2, had "waterwings", which were hung over their necks that were filled with grenades. In german doctrine at least, the weapons that won the battle for the infantry were the grenade and the machine gun. Rifles were only self defense weapons.
So essentially, the tons of grenade spam ingame is 100% correct. The throw distance on the egg grenades is correct. And the stick nades, if anything, should be thrown farther, and for the non-shrapnel ones, should have a much smaller cone of damage (german soldiers in WW1 would literally jump feet first into the blast to avoid concussive effects of it), and a much higher concussive blast, that should, if it doesn't kill, cause bleeding or extreme suppression.
The German Stormtrooper made expert use of the grenade from 1916-1918. Stormtrooper units were led in the attack by grenade throwers. These were the men with the strongest arms and greatest accuracy. In a battle within the trenches the grenade men would throw single or grouped grenades over or around corners. Following the explosions several men armed with the K98 short barrel carbines, pistols, bayonets, and sharpened shovels to finish of dazed defenders. The remaining members of the unit, in addition to carrying their own weapons, wore sandbags filled with grenades. Ernst Jünger recorded how he and other Stormtroopers would keep percussion grenades on one side and pull-cords on the other. During the attack Stormtroopers would pass grenades to the throwers at the front, with men replacing the throwers as they tried or were wounded, relentlessly pushing the attack forward.
While yes, this is on WW1, it was really little different in WW2, the same tactics applied. The germans simply loved the grenade.
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And Mudra strikes again...
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IMO you dont really have much advantage with the mills as a defensive grenades
Stielgranates feel like they kill at almost the same radius as the mills
The only real diffrence i see in blast radius, is the bomba a mano vs the mills.
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I am okay with Handgrenades. What i find a bit silly is the amount of riflelaunchers and nades and the use of it.
I shamefully admit that i am one of these people who at the beginning of a round puts on a rifle nade to shoot it at the first enemy i see, even while running or jumping ::)- thats because you mostly have one or two spare nades and it is way too easy to use them.
Maybe reduce the amount of them or make sure that one can just fire it while standing or crouching (thats how they were used IRL too IRC)
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Kits in FH2 have 2 grenades evhgear, not 3.
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Kits in FH2 have 2 grenades evhgear, not 3.
Most times the rifleman caries 3 grenades^^ (Is there a map with 2 grenades?)
One in the hand and 2 to "reload".
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PLEASE, reduce the number of grenades on Tunis! :'(
I dont even exaggerate when i say that tunis gets stuck 9 out of 10 times at the big wall (the one behind the flag that the allies always cap - not the first wall ;)) with a shitload of grenade kills. the amount of grenades is of course already reduced, but still it seems there is to much slaughter when everybody is just grenade-whoring the other side of the wall.
so as suggested i would like to see either: - only the assault kit gets nades.
or: grenade kits that lie around ... like a sniper kit for example
edited: FOR TUNIS
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Kits in FH2 have 2 grenades evhgear, not 3.
Most times the rifleman caries 3 grenades^^ (Is there a map with 2 grenades?)
One in the hand and 2 to "reload".
I'm quite sure that is not the case. It is 2, or 1 with the less grenades code.
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Kits in FH2 have 2 grenades evhgear, not 3.
Most times the rifleman caries 3 grenades^^ (Is there a map with 2 grenades?)
One in the hand and 2 to "reload".
I'm quite sure that is not the case. It is 2, or 1 with the less grenades code.
No, it really is the case. The mills bomb, for example, has 2 versions. The one with 2 grenades is used in assault kits, the one with three in rifleman kits. This seems to have been dropped however.
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I support limiting rifle nades. Those mofos suck. ::)
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Everybody can have one grenade. As long as its a Thermos grenade with buffed range and HE. (http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/174/trollface.png)
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they should stay the same! just because you get mad because you keep dieing from grenades is no need to change it. A real easy way is when you here or see a grenade RUN!
if anything the range of some grenades should be up.
also I think there should be more rifle grenades
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I think the load out is fine - Although, we could do with less rifle-grenades imo. However, the real change coudl be in the number of ammo boxes there are ingame. These should be a rare treat to replenish you. Not something where you can just go pluck more of everything.
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I have to agree with the OP here. Game play simply does not benefit from too many throwable explosives.
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One per soldier would be ok. imo.
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How about grenades that do less damage instead? That's a whole lot less work.
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But then we'll never see the end of 'why are grenades not realistic' - and they'd be right.
I think the german grenade should have less splash damage, and the Allied, more. But there should be fewer opportunities to restock on them.
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I like it as it is... mostly. Perhaps Operation Hyacinth should have less grenades, i dont really remember how many grenades one kit have, but i do recall constantly beeing killed by grenades. But thats fine enough with me. At Tunis i would say grenades are very important for the attacking team. Without them i bet the brits would win even more rarely than they do now, and as far i have seen recently brits never win anymore.
I also dont like the idea of making grenades a limited kit. Its bad enough like it is at many maps when the G43 or different SMGs are limited. Then it will be too important to have the limited kits, cause without it youre completely inferior and screwed. It also gets kinda stressing every time i die to desperately try to get a limited kit. It somehow take away some of the focus i have on whats happening in the battle.
Also, i cant really understand how grenades can be defined as a defensive weapon.
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Having thrown reproduction stick nades weighted to weigh the same as a real German stick nade, I can say that the range they have ingame is, if anything, too little. The stick design was specifically used to give it an incredible range over the egg style nades. This is due, essentially, to different tactically doctrine. The Germans, starting WW1, saw grenades as offensive weapons. Thus they have little shrapnel, large explosive potential, and can be thrown quite far. Egg grenades are of a defensive type, that is, its hard to throw them far enough that you'll be out of danger. Thus, they usually have a small charge with lots of metal and shrapnel potential, and are meant to be thrown from a position of cover (thus a 'defensive' grenade).
Also, ingame, that's about 40 yards you're throwing the stick nade, not 100. You aren't a very good judge of distance dude. :P
On the use of grenades, grenades were used almost more than rifles in the attack, especially by the Germans. Stosstrupp in WW1, and pionier/FJ-pionier in WW2, had "waterwings", which were hung over their necks that were filled with grenades. In german doctrine at least, the weapons that won the battle for the infantry were the grenade and the machine gun. Rifles were only self defense weapons.
So essentially, the tons of grenade spam ingame is 100% correct. The throw distance on the egg grenades is correct. And the stick nades, if anything, should be thrown farther, and for the non-shrapnel ones, should have a much smaller cone of damage (german soldiers in WW1 would literally jump feet first into the blast to avoid concussive effects of it), and a much higher concussive blast, that should, if it doesn't kill, cause bleeding or extreme suppression.
The German Stormtrooper made expert use of the grenade from 1916-1918. Stormtrooper units were led in the attack by grenade throwers. These were the men with the strongest arms and greatest accuracy. In a battle within the trenches the grenade men would throw single or grouped grenades over or around corners. Following the explosions several men armed with the K98 short barrel carbines, pistols, bayonets, and sharpened shovels to finish of dazed defenders. The remaining members of the unit, in addition to carrying their own weapons, wore sandbags filled with grenades. Ernst Jünger recorded how he and other Stormtroopers would keep percussion grenades on one side and pull-cords on the other. During the attack Stormtroopers would pass grenades to the throwers at the front, with men replacing the throwers as they tried or were wounded, relentlessly pushing the attack forward.
While yes, this is on WW1, it was really little different in WW2, the same tactics applied. The germans simply loved the grenade.
I'd like to see this implemented.
Germans mostly used the stick grenade in a similar manner as the modern flashbang to my knowledge. They were supposed to disable enemy troops for a few seconds before charging in and taking them on with firearms or melee combat. Pretty much what is described in that quote Mudra posted.
So instead of killing you, stick grenades could bring up some heavy shader effect for 2-4 seconds, disableing you for long enough to provide the attacker a relatively easy kill. Realistically this effect is greater in closed spaces like bunkers or rooms, hence why the attack grenades are essential for room clearing. This probably can't be implemented in bf2 though.
Also, there should be a kit with the "egg" grenades, so one could choose appropriate grenade for a situation. Did any other nation use attack grenades ikn ww2? If yes, these could be implemented as well.
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The british contact nade and italian ones are also technically offensive grenades. Also, on the concussion, it could kill if you were close enough, or in an enclosed space like a atrench or bunker or room or such. The concussion would literally bounce off the walls, repeatedly hitting you, and basically liquifing your insides.
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Well a minimal killing radius could be kept, but getting away from it should rather easy.
Also, having some knowledge on explosives, I dont think 180 grams is enough to "liquify" your insides :P
Kill you, yes, under ceratin circumstances, no doubt.
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You know what imean. The concussion being bounced around the walls of an enclosed space would cause internal bleeding, hemmrogging in the brain, and death. Artillery does the same thing :P
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Well, my point was that a trained soldier, upon seeing a grenade can take cover before it goes off and avoid the primary shockwave and some of the reflection as well. I'm of course talking about rooms with and area of 15 m2 or bigger, not some tiny cupboards that are of little tactical importance anyway.
In short, a tiny blast radius that can kill you if you careless, but can be avoided with relative ease, and a bigger stun radius is what I'd like to see.
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You know what imean. The concussion being bounced around the walls of an enclosed space would cause internal bleeding, hemmrogging in the brain, and death. Artillery does the same thing :P
The sudden difference in pressure will break the sensitive blood vessels in your ear, lungs and eyes IIRC, making you suffocate in your own blood and making you lose balance/coordination. Being in a closed space enhances this because the pressure waves interact with each other at random while bouncing around. Usually increasing each other in strength.
Brain should not get affected since it's in a closed environment.
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Gotcha, thanks siben! And yes, that is true krad, but that is also one of the points of all grenades, to force the enemy to leave his cover and move somewhere else.
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Yes it is, and thats represented right now as well.
On the subject of the brain being affected. Getting too close to an explosion feels quite similar to getting hit on the head, something you can experience in the boxing ring, only more severe. (depends on the charge and the distance of course.) Now because of this i always assumed the shockwave caused concussion, meaning your brain getting smashed into your own scull, and thus creating the "stun" effect. Is this theory wrong?
And yes, the sudden pressure difference is what generally causes death, when dealing with high explosives.
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Now because of this i always assumed the shockwave caused concussion, meaning your brain getting smashed into your own scull, and thus creating the "stun" effect. Is this theory wrong?
Yes, this is what I believe as well, unless someone knows more about braindoctorism.
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Wrong, the breaking of your eardrums is what fuckes you over. you falling to the ground is what can fuck your brain over.
You balance is mainly controlled by your eyes and ears. Those 2 signals have to match, if they don't (like on a ship, where your eyes say you are not moving, but your ears say you are) then you get sick. Loose balance and throw up and shit.
If the ears are damages to much, like lets say an explosions, then you have the same, just a lot worse. You fall to the ground since you just lost all your balance, feel like shit and probably even throw up.
Hence people on the ground crawling and deaf when you throw a large pressure wave in there direction.
Not 100% sure of this, but breaking an eardrum is sometimes also labeled as having a concussion, since it is very similar in many ways. The brain getting smashed into you own skull isn't really and instant death, and is mostly only dangerous with side impacts. It takes a few hours for the brain to swell and cause serious problems. (unless you just plowed a hammer in your head, but then it is more the pieces of skull that cut there way into your brain that are the problem)
Also, we are talking about air pressure and the rapid change of it, a boxer hitting you in the face has a lot more force. people who died of overpressure rarely show visible marks on the outside. Just blood in the mouth and ears.
If you want to compare it with a hit to the head, then i propose hitting someone with a flat hand where your wrist hits the temple and your flat hand the ear, one semi hard blow can give a person a concussion and make him go down and stay down. Saw someone do it about 5 years ago, i was rather amazed.
If you want to counter the presure, close eyes, nose, ears and mouth.
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The Sturmtroopers in ww1 could attack a trench with a bag full of stick grenades, aswell as ive seen clips from ww2 where russians do grenade spamming from big crates full of grenades.
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Quoting Kradovech:
"Did any other nation use attack grenades ikn ww2? If yes, these could be implemented as well."
Russians did. The two most common grenades were the F-1 (very similar to Mills bomb) and the offensive RGD-33 (abbreviation of handgrenade in Russian). The latter one could be improved by a fragmentation sleeve, just like the German potato masher. On the point of how many grenades were used I have read that experienced soldiers stocked up on grenades (up to 10) and only used them for important attacks or defenses, as the grenades were supposed to be regularly issued on day-to-day basis. Most of them said that the German nade was crap due to very low effective radius, being used to the defensive F-1, however some assault troops liked it due to the superior throwing distance (RGD-33 was heavier but shorter).
On the point of damage from concussion grenades:
Siben is mostly correct here. The "brain getting smashed into the scull" is wrong, as it is not freely hanging there, but is well confined by the walls of the skull. However he is wrong that to protect yourself you need to close eyes, nose, ears and mouth.
It does help to close ears (the pressure wave can destroy the ear drums), nose (the pressure wave can break some blood vessels, however the actual damage is minimal) and eyes (the pressure wave can press the eyeballs). HOWEVER you should open the mouth. By opening your mouth you make the internal skull pressure closer to the outside pressure by at least equilibrating the pressure in your mouth, as you can't really open your brain enclosure. So when the wave reaches you, it might cause some unpleasant feelings in the mouth, but there are no important things to be damaged there in the first place, but the better overall pressure balance could save your head altogether. The main problem here is that you generally don't have enough time to open it (you'll eat all the dust you can if you try to do that during an artillery strike) ;)
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I am okay with Handgrenades. What i find a bit silly is the amount of riflelaunchers and nades and the use of it.
I shamefully admit that i am one of these people who at the beginning of a round puts on a rifle nade to shoot it at the first enemy i see, even while running or jumping ::)- thats because you mostly have one or two spare nades and it is way too easy to use them.
Maybe reduce the amount of them or make sure that one can just fire it while standing or crouching (thats how they were used IRL too IRC)
^ this. Grenades are ok but riflegrenades are too much.
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At least from a book I read about the Korean War (written in Chinese account of course), the Chinese use grenades extensively in assaulting American positions at night. As well as musical instuments, which is kind of weird. (the latter I think is true, at least multiple sources seemed to have agreed on that)
So, if, even the poorly equipped Chinese (with like no industrial base) got grenades to spam, the combat nations in WWII, have no reason to be lacking of grenades to toss as they could made them easily.
The current grenade spam, is made more annoying due to ... one thing. It is immediately obvious that the useful tactic is, a guy toss a grenade, dead, respawn at SL, toss, dead, repeat, until a grenade somehow blown up all the garrisons and the flag fall in 5 seconds.
Not to say SL spawn is bad, but certainly is a factor in the abundance of grenades.
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...Not to say SL spawn is bad, but certainly is a factor in the abundance of grenades.
So you're saying that we should remove SL spawn to prevent grenade spamming? That's a... great idea actually, I never liked people randomly popping out of thin air, but that could potentially have a great effect on public play teamwork, which is already pretty rare...
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The problem isn't the amount of grenades, it's the lack of appreciation for cover and one's life.
No one ever sticks with the tanks on Brest, if they did all they'd have to do is hide behind them or stay inside the APC.
Along with defensively staying alive from grenades with a greater appreciation for your life, OFFESNIVLY if you only spawn 8 times a round that's only 16 grenades, BUT if you repeatedly die and toss grenades you can spawn 30 times and throw 60 grenades. Don't let people die 30 times in one round, that's my suggestion. 20 spawn limit even for fh, then sit there and think about what a noob you are.
Reading about the raid on Barce, no one even died!!! nothing but wounded, people appreciate real life not video ones, and that causes other issues like infinite grenades.
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Squad leader spawn is pure evil, I hate it. Where are the good ol' days of Anctoville without it.
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Squad leader spawn is pure evil, I hate it. Where are the good ol' days of Anctoville without it.
NOPE, SL spawn is not a total bad thing.
I could list a few very good thing about SL spawn:
- It keeps a particular group of people together, not scattered around the map. And therefore less lonewolves and more teamwork.
- It makes playing with friends a lot easier, therefore much more fun.
- It makes combat more intense.
There is a lot of reason to maintain the SL spawn, it sucks, when your squad is simply scattered like that in antoville, though that was a really nice try, I must say.
If I find the time, I'd wish to make a post to urge for improving the SL spawn rather than to remove it. I do agree on, however, it is a bit strange to have enemies appear out of thin air, especially it makes no sense why all your enemies come from your own basement, that obviously your enemies didn't dig a tunnel to it.