Machete

[Pejsaty]

I'm a big dum-dum

[hOMEr_jAy]

With this attitude, you
Following your argument, if I were to be a Catholic negro, I should be publicly stating that I disagree with or condemn certain actions performed somewhere around the world by any Catholic or negro, even if I don't know those persons, or the actions have nothing to do with me or my immediate surroundings. And that everytime it happens. Weird.

That´s not what I mean.

It´s not about being the spokesperson of "your" group, but about being a human being that is naturally appalled by such atrocities, regardless of who or what you are. I also don´t demand to see a signed statement by all Muslims or something like that. It´s just that there´s basically no reaction at all.
Usually terrible or important events provoke all sorts of different reactions, be it protests, articles in newspapers etc. and usually these reactions come from all sort of groups. Even "moderate" people belonging to a certain group, especially those in whose name the crime was committed, will usually condemn violent and agressive acts. Only extremists agree with other extremists.
Remaining silent about such issues is, mildly put, weird. Our political system lives from active participation, not taking part in that is counter productive on all levels and does more harm than good. Being silent about important issues is one of the worst things a citizen of a democratic state can do.


Pejsaty, I truly hope your kidding.

[GooGeL]

That´s not what I mean.

It´s not about being the spokesperson of "your" group, but about being a human being that is naturally appalled by such atrocities, regardless of who or what you are. I also don´t demand to see a signed statement by all Muslims or something like that. It´s just that there´s basically no reaction at all.
Usually terrible or important events provoke all sorts of different reactions, be it protests, articles in newspapers etc. and usually these reactions come from all sort of groups. Even "moderate" people belonging to a certain group, especially those in whose name the crime was committed, will usually condemn violent and agressive acts. Only extremists agree with other extremists.
Remaining silent about such issues is, mildly put, weird. Our political system lives from active participation, not taking part in that is counter productive on all levels and does more harm than good. Being silent about important issues is one of the worst things a citizen of a democratic state can do.


Pejsaty, I truly hope your kidding.

What, is there a central chief muslim that should maybe "pardon" and tell you the obvious?

Nah, it's better to be silent cause you can't reason with dumb people who are against all muslims. The clever people already know it's two individuals that went wacko.

[hOMEr_jAy]

What, is there a central chief muslim that should maybe "pardon" and tell you the obvious?

Nah, it's better to be silent cause you can't reason with dumb people who are against all muslims. The clever people already know it's two individuals that went wacko.

It´s not the "clever people" that are the problem, but the "dumb people", drawing false conclusions because spiritual leaders or members of groups who don´t want to be associated with religious extremism chose to remain silent on the issue.
I personally wouldn´t want any extremists say that he´s representing my POV by killing innocent people and I sure as hell wouldn´t remain silent about that. Silence is at best indifference and at worst agreement.

[Captain Pyjama Shark]

I imagine I speak for many when I ask what Pejsaty said.

[GooGeL]

It´s not the "clever people" that are the problem, but the "dumb people", drawing false conclusions because spiritual leaders or members of groups who don´t want to be associated with religious extremism chose to remain silent on the issue.
I personally wouldn´t want any extremists say that he´s representing my POV by killing innocent people and I sure as hell wouldn´t remain silent about that. Silence is at best indifference and at worst agreement.

Hm, no. The dumb people have already judged the lot for the worse. They don't understand logic reasoning.

No muslim need need to say anything. Just cause I'm white I'm not going to condemn openly or give any excuse to anyone when a black man gets murdered by "one of us". Even if there's any racism involved.

I would feel just as disgusted as any other human, that's end of it.

Only media have a responsibility to show here and not f*ck shit up. Though, can't expect much from those propaganda machines that serves whatever intrest their owners have.

[hOMEr_jAy]

Hm, no. The dumb people have already judged the lot for the worse. They don't understand logic reasoning.

No muslim need need to say anything. Just cause I'm white I'm not going to condemn openly or give any excuse to anyone when a black man gets murdered by "one of us". Even if there's any racism involved.

The bold part is where you´re wrong. It´s not a racial issue and it´s also not comparable to "common" crime. Terrorism and the demand for special treatment at the cost of others (which is what the whole Mohamed cartoon incident is) is a completely different matter than your run-off-the-mill robbery.
Since these Muslim extremists say they defend "the faith" and act in the interests of their fellow Muslims, they become spokesmen for the moderate ones. And that´s a grave issue, since the moderate Muslims surely wouldn´t want to be represented by these extremist lunatics.
So usually, when you don´t want to be represented by someone you distance yourself from these people in order to...well, not get confused as one of their kind.
A better example would be radical leftists, burning private property, injuring policemen and bystanders. Any sane and moderate social-democrat would want to distance himself from these extremists. Incidently this also is standard behaviour, because they don´t want people to think they get represented by extremists and support them in their cause.
That´s why the whole silence from the "moderate" community is rather strange. For example, there´s barely any uproar from spiritual leaders when there are incidents that infringe our rights or disgusting acts that are conducted in the "name of Islam". I see silence as either indifference or silent approval and I don´t know which is worst.

[Korsakov829]

I don't understand, what silence...? Within the hour after a terrorist attack, this minor one included, its already internationally condemned by many heads of government and notable religious figures. Condemnations that grow exponentially every day after for the following week or two.

[GooGeL]

The lot aren't guilty to any crime, so they don't need to be forced i.e to take a stand in this. They might share the intrest in reading the same book, which to me personally is mythology. But that's about it.

Though who is not suprised that a lot of muslims are pissed due UK's involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq. 1.5 million are dead due to the invasion in Iraq, alone (did they recieve any excuse?). However it doesn't justify these two peoples actions.

[hOMEr_jAy]

I don't understand, what silence...? Within the hour after a terrorist attack, this minor one included, its already internationally condemned by many heads of government and notable religious figures. Condemnations that grow exponentially every day after for the following week or two.

Heads of governments and notable religious figures don´t really matter if the one I´m looking at actually live in the country where the big trouble is.
During last years demonstrations against the "Innocence of Muslims" movie I haven´t read anything from Muslims on how the movie is bad, but part of living in a secular society is accepting other oppinions and tolerating freedom of the arts and press. Instead we had big protests, demanding to forbid the movie etc. while the rest stayed quiet.

[Lightning]

That´s why the whole silence from the "moderate" community is rather strange.

Everything else aside, this purported silence is not there.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/not-in-the-name-of-islam-british-muslims-denounce-the-woolwich-attack/

The bold part is where you´re wrong. It´s not a racial issue and it´s also not comparable to "common" crime. Terrorism and the demand for special treatment at the cost of others (which is what the whole Mohamed cartoon incident is) is a completely different matter than your run-off-the-mill robbery.

So you believe white people should publicly denounce the ku klux clan? Christians should denounce the westboro baptists? Just about any excuse could be used and has been used to justify the most horrific things, but in the end, they are just that, excuses.

I am an atheist and if someone killed someone tomorrow in the name of atheism, I would trust people not to suddenly assume I would condone such an action, simply because we have one single opinion in common. I certainly would not feel the need to publicly condemn such as action. I think it goes without saying that taking someone's life is wrong, whatever the reason.

[hOMEr_jAy]

Everything else aside, this purported silence is not there.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/not-in-the-name-of-islam-british-muslims-denounce-the-woolwich-attack/

For once I´m glad to see I was (partially) wrong. A good read with hopefully more to come.

So you believe white people should publicly denounce the ku klux clan? Christians should denounce the westboro baptists? Just about any excuse could be used and has been used to justify the most horrific things, but in the end, they are just that, excuses.

I am an atheist and if someone killed someone tomorrow in the name of atheism, I would trust people not to suddenly assume I would condone such an action, simply because we have one single opinion in common. I certainly would not feel the need to publicly condemn such as action. I think it goes without saying that taking someone's life is wrong, whatever the reason.

It´s not about some superficial apology you give to appease people who are involved, but about an active statement, blog, article, letter etc. that shows that these extremists are NOT representing YOUR ideas. It´s a sign that you resist them, that you denounce them and that you do NOT support them.
For example, the Westboro Baptist Church already get´s denounced and catches lots of flak from other Christian people, just like people distance themselves from the Catholic church due to the ammount of sexual abuse scandals.
Also, if there´d be an atheist terror group that´d bomb churches and kill religious people, I definately would distance myself from their actions, despite being an atheist myself and I´m sure many would do the same, just like the people in the article you linked. Showing that your not part of an extremist ideology is a first step in fighting these ideas. Remaining silent is tolerating them.

[Korsakov829]

That´s why the whole silence from the "moderate" community is rather strange.

Everything else aside, this purported silence is not there.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/not-in-the-name-of-islam-british-muslims-denounce-the-woolwich-attack/

I'll add to that one with this, which I just read in our news:

Shaikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan, UAE Foreign Minister, has condemned the heinous crime which claimed the life of a British soldier in London.

He added that “This brutal act is rejected by all religions and deserves every condemnation and denunciation.”

Shaikh Abdullah also expressed the UAE’s full solidarity with the British Government in combating this terrorist act, hailing the way the British Government dealt with the crime.

The UAE Foreign Minister praised the strong and clear stance of the Islamic Councils, Associations and leading figures in the United Kingdom, and their condemnation of this crime, calling on them to continue emphasising the tolerant approach of Islam, which denounces violence and terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, whatever the motives.

[Lightning]

Remaining silent is tolerating them.

I think it's commendable that you feel all humans have some sort of obligation to work towards a better world, but in practice this sort of thinking is too black-and-white. You cannot accuse someone of tolerating murder simply because they do not voice their opinion on the matter. You will be accusing a lot of people with that attitude and mostly wrongly so.

People are innocent until proven guilty and likewise I assume people disapprove of violence and murder for whatever reason unless they explicitly say that they do not.

[hOMEr_jAy]

People are innocent until proven guilty and likewise I assume people disapprove of violence and murder for whatever reason unless they explicitly say that they do not.

So, it´s not necessary to actively stand up against extremism and to show that one does not share their means and goals? If that´s so, we don´t need to voice our oppinions against what we feel is wrong in the world, since remaining silent in the issue means we disappprove it. Screw the whole "political participation of educated citizens"-thing and let´s all stay silent, aye? It´ll surely all go away from alone...

Korsakov, thanks for the link. It´s good to see people condemning the attack. Now they just need to start being supportive of basic rights, such as freedom of expression, art and press, even if people feel their "feelings are hurt" by some of the content.