Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Normandy maps => Feedback => Falaise Pocket => Topic started by: Toddel on 07-09-2009, 21:09:28
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
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This map definitely needs to be made into a push; you could have the first-two flags cap-able at the beginning then, once the first two have been capped, the town flags can be capped and lastly you can cap the mortar battery.
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Believe me when I say that this map was tested in push several times but always ended up into huge clusterfuck when everyone was at one small area all the time. It didnt work!
But I admit we should have the last canadian flag (mortar battery) behind a semi-push which is only capturable after the germans have captured key locations at Saint Lambert.
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the map doesn't need push, it usually works linear and those cappings of rear flags give variety and keep canucks on their toes.
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Lobo is right about keeping canucks on toes. I love playing as a canadian and just wait in the rear for those germans who try to flank. No4 and my hideout, its enough!
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if a tank reaches the point i marked at the map,its almost impossible to kill him.
there is just one pass through the hedges in direct view of the tank,while the tank himself can observe most
of the battlefield.
plz add some more passes to the hedgerow there to avoid excessive tankcamping.
(http://s4.directupload.net/images/090913/w4kqohg5.jpg)
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get a piat....ive killed 3 tanks on that exact spot by waiting for them to come. A tank can never cover everything so youve got to be smart.
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And if you attack the camper with force, where is he going to escape??
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get a piat....ive killed 3 tanks on that exact spot by waiting for them to come. A tank can never cover everything so youve got to be smart.
yeah,IF you wait there.if hes already there and its a p4 with schützen you can forget about it.
@flippy
what force?
normaly there are lots of battles around,the tank is an sl and is public playing.
all im asking for is some more holes in the hedges... dont think its a hard sugestion.
getn sometimes a bit pissed.
i make a request (within a good reason) and all whats comes back are stupid comments.
use a piat...wtf serious? i normaly try killing tanks with my knife.
serious guys!
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yeah,IF you wait there.if hes already there and its a p4 with schützen you can forget about it.
Even the PzIVH (which has the best skirt coverage of any vehicle with them) still has a few vulnerable areas that you can hit with a well placed shot to the side.
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thx 4 the info.....i will use my x-ray-eyes to see through the hedges.
ffs...stop telling me things i know for 10 years ::)
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thx 4 the info.....i will use my x-ray-eyes to see through the hedges.
ffs...stop telling me things i know for 10 years ::)
Did you know the engineer comes with a satchel charge. If you hold left mouse button and really really move your mouse hard, you throw it all the way to tank. :P
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one stachel doesnt do the job....
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::) You get 2 usually. (Yes, I'm antagonizing you, but god damn it feels good sometimes!)
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Angrybeaver what the fuck is wrong with you?
I dont want to see such shit here. Toddel
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That...is entirely inappropriate. And very offensive. Domestic abuse is not funny.
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That...is entirely inappropriate. And very offensive. Domestic abuse is not funny.
aha...you know the background of this picture? i dont....dont be the moralizer,makes me wonder what kind of black humor of yours i gonna find,if im just searching for it
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Whatever. I don't feel like arguing anymore. I guess at failed at trying to troll you, huh? ;)
Now I know why I don't do it more often.
EDIT: I guess I could have said: "So you think you she walked into a door and some smartass decided to place an inappropriate and offensive caption on the picture? Really? REALLY?" But like I said, I got bored of my failed attempt to troll you.
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ok,lets get back to topic before lightning is gonna crush us :-X
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Its like that dude called zykloon
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I am starting to dislike this map. On many rounds, the canucks get spawnraped to hell. And many axis players know how to do it. Their are places on the map, where they can sit happily with their panther tank, firing HE shells and MG rounds at places where allies spawn, ripping them apart.
One of them is Otto.Zeimer, who does this every round. Everyone on the allied team is complaining bout him spawnraping, yet all the axis players, and some of the admins of hslan, seems to have the mentality of= Axis can spawnrape, allies just die and spawn.
Angrybeaver made a good tank spawnrape position, another one is East of St Lamberth south. Axis can happily spawnrape their. And nobody gives a damn. We are simply ""Whining"" because we cant even leave the spawnarea, we should just shut up and die.
Some atmosphere developing their.
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...and those spawnrape positions east of St. Lamberth can be easily flanked by a PIAT-toting Canuck. But only if you don't spawn in the position being spawnraped, but in the mainbase or St. Lamberth West instead. Poor kittah does not even have Schürtzen to protect itself from the sides, unlike PzIVH, and there's rarely any infantry protecting tanks from close assault.
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...and those spawnrape positions east of St. Lamberth can be easily flanked by a PIAT-toting Canuck. But only if you don't spawn in the position being spawnraped, but in the mainbase or St. Lamberth West instead. Poor kittah does not even have Schürtzen to protect itself from the sides, unlike PzIVH, and there's rarely any infantry protecting tanks from close assault.
Wich i did, but it is pretty hard if you cant kill the Panther in one shot(Yes i fired at the rear armor, it was still alive, burning but alive) He turned his turret, and bang, dead
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Stop complaining about spawnkilling, seriously. It just means Axis is doing very well, and Allied suck.
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One of them is Otto.Zeimer, who does this every round. Everyone on the allied team is complaining bout him spawnraping, yet all the axis players, and some of the admins of hslan, seems to have the mentality of= Axis can spawnrape, allies just die and spawn.
What a whiner! I am always a squad leader and my job is to survive on this map, and to provide a mobile spawnpoint near hostile flags, while my squadmates rush for the flag where you just keep spawning.
it is a strategy for fh2 everywhere. and i would not kill you if you just let us grab that flag. simple.
map is good and push mode would make it horrible.
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One of them is Otto.Zeimer, who does this every round. Everyone on the allied team is complaining bout him spawnraping, yet all the axis players, and some of the admins of hslan, seems to have the mentality of= Axis can spawnrape, allies just die and spawn.
What a whiner! I am always a squad leader and my job is to survive on this map, and to provide a mobile spawnpoint near hostile flags, while my squadmates rush for the flag where you just keep spawning.
it is a strategy for fh2 everywhere. and i would not kill you if you just let us grab that flag. simple.
map is good and push mode would make it horrible.
Hup. Their you go again. You call us whiners. Because we are getting ripped apart right after we spawn, and we complain about it. Thats complaing. Not whining.
Just as that other time, when i and some other guys where talking bout what has changed aircraft wise. One said turning rate was increased and accelration, the one mentioned max top speed, and you INSTANLY called us whiners. For what reason?
Falaise pocket needs a small change to prevent this kind of spawnraping. These 2 spots are so easly exploit by the germans, that we cant even reach the spawncampers their properly
Falaise pocket is a good map. But it needs a slight adjustment, to prevent into turning into another German killwhore fest. We have had enough of those maps
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the problem is german tanks camping in the spot marked on the map?
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Toddel,
there are several locations on Falaise map which allow for German tanks to spawn rape without much threat.
i think to make the map better the out of bounds needs to be moved in a fashion that allows the Canadians to establish a forward line of defence beyond the river. Most of the time that i play Falaise nowadays, there is a mad dash to see which German can sneak to back of the map and take Mortar Battery first. Since all the Canadians are forward, that means at least 2 more Canadian flags get capped before the defence can respond. This is not at all how the battle played out in real life.
IRl, the Canadians put up a very tenacious defence that ran consecutive ambushes on convoys of desperate german troops that were in disarray and lacked any true command and control. I think if the German tank movements were canalized to follow the streets of St. Lambert (instead of the normal hedgerow paths) we would have a smoother gameplay as the Germans would be forced to organize close infantry protection of their tankers as they transit through the streets of St. Lambert. I also feel that the 6 pounder guns on the map need to be better positioned so that they can actually target the German tanks lines of approach with a particular focus on being able to target the German Tank-camper locations. (imo every 6 pdr on this map is in a bad spot)
i give the map a score of 6/10. Although i do love playing Falaise, there are too many spawnraper positions to make it much fun for me. With some simple tweaks that allow better Canadian defence, this map can become an easy 10/10 in my books.
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This is one of the most balanced maps, although I still think that the last flag needs some sort of limited push, like "cap one of the st lambert flags to advance".
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I love this map in the pub play as well as i loved it on betatest. Yet I agree that push mode would make the map really dull with no chance of variety I think that the last two flags (north lambert and canuk HQ). Allowing axis for a flanking manouver is fine and dandy but a mad rush through not yet secured allied defences is a no-no in my book.
A simple example how it destroys gameplay. I took a sherman from the HQ and took it to the river bank near the church. Imagine my surprise when I got killed by a panzerfaust in a halfway of the western treeline. It happened to be a german SL with a full squad in his bum. Shortly after that the HQ got captured and we couldn't do much about it.
There are only two ways to stop the german rush through the treeline:
1. Man the 6pdr with HE shells.
2. Man the vickers on the top floor near the south lambert flag.
Both have to be done pretty quickly and even if someone wants to seat in one place and 'watch da line' if he didn't invest in a pimped out rig (map loads faster) he probably won't make it in time to secure it.
I think some little change shoud be done to prevent this. I.e. Pushing the defence line on the other side of the river mmight do the trick (as suggested earlier).
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Some points and suggestions
1. make the Germans can't spawn immediately in the frontal positions(there are 3), make a delay before those spawns are activated, so you'll be getting some time to prepare defenses as canadians
2. the problem of not giving the last flag some push is that, in case just a few sneaky soldiers sneaked through, the canadians would lose all their armour and get camped to death by even 1 German tank...I don't think PIATs are good stuffs to fight against something camping 200m away. Maybe the Canadians could get tanks elsewhere...
3. A very good map generally, and only backcappings makes people upset.
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As has been said, the last flag on the Canadian side seriously has be made either an uncap or only capturable after all but the last one or two flags have been taken by the Germans. I've had several instances where some fun-hating German SL sped through the unprepared Canadian defenses at the start of the match and managed, with the help of his squadmates, to take over Mortar Battery and use the 6pdr to take out any nearby Shermans and allow the panzers to roll in. It's not hard to imagine how things went from there. I know most players are more 'honorable' (I hate using that word for online gaming) and won't pull such BS, but there are a few out there who won't hesitate on carrying it out.
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How exactly is this different from the Tommys ninjaing their way over the back wall in Barce?
No push for any flag in Falaise, please. It keeps the map from becoming too predictable.
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Well, a partial push could be inserted, like someone earlier suggested: you need 2 out of 3 flags in St Lambert to be able to cap Mortar Battery. Or maybe even one, as a compromise?
If not, the Canadians are forced to defend the last flag, which is a bit of fun in the beginning and then very, very annoying for the rest of the round.
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Why not make the 3 spawnpoints at the river only appear for the germans after capping a dummy flag ? Like, all the krauts have to join in the main, get to the river, cap the dummy flag and then be able to spawn right at the front. Like the beach points on PDH.
Would give the allies plenty of time to close all the gaps.
Or maybe extend the out of bounds area at the northern hedgerow rivercrossing so they cant get trough there. Krauts would still be able to sneak through the gaps in the hedgerow at the church, but it would be much more challenging ..
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I like corvax his idea. Spawn points at the church its beach, and the red zone backcap position even more red-zoned
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I usually play allies on this map, and really once it comes up I just call it a night and go to bed. It just doesnt seem as fun as the others. Usually by the time is loads the Germans already have the Destroyed battery and if they are playing right are well on their way to backcapping the mortar battery. After a few minutes the Jerry's line up their tanks across the field and just shoot andything that moves at a flag that isnt theirs. No room to flank them, no room to do anything.
At best it seems to turn into flag tag for the allies. Run here, run there any flag going down whenever. I feel like the fish in the barrel quite a bit on the map.
As for suggestions, I cant come up with any. For being a Canadian defense map, it feels impossible to defend because the germans are all over every flag at seemingly the same time. If they win it is by attrition rather than stout defense.
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I at first also propagated the idea of a locked flag or a semi push, but then the following argument was made by a mapper and I have to agree:
It has 3 tanks spawning and arty which should keep that flag manned all the time.
So if the Canadians lose their main flag then they deserve it!
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i cant see the problem with the spawns at the river.
the last 10 times i played this map allies won...with almost no problems.you dont even have to stay at mortar battery,you just have to close the gaps germans using to go there.
i always stay with the sherman far away from the front,just defending the area around st lambert.having always a nice game with around 30 kills and mucho action.
in my opinion,keep it as it is....already hard enough for the germans,espeacily with all the safezonetankcampingwhores ;D
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I like the idea of not having the 3 spawns to be there initially, canadians deserve some time to prepare. Dummy flags would be the best idea. (I think there are some reasons for trucks and APC to exist rather than just being armoured machine gun?)
I have another idea,
That is, to give Canadians a temporory "main" somewhere else when mortar battery is lost, here are my arguments
1. Canadian armour shouldn't be cut-off just because of a flanking action, it just don't make sense you can cut off enemy armour with simply infantry.
2. The temporory main should exist only when the canadians still hold the 2 flags in the town. So it would be the fault of the canadians if they can't hold the rest of the flags when a backcap occurs.
3. Give the Germans some heavy weapons when they captured the mortar battery, such as PaK guns and panzerschrecks to defend their gains against canadians attempting to recap.
The only problem that this idea would cause is that the Canadians would have a lot of armour when mortar battery is recap very quickly afterwards, which makes the map imbalanced.
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I like the idea of not having the 3 spawns to be there initially, canadians deserve some time to prepare. Dummy flags would be the best idea. (I think there are some reasons for trucks and APC to exist rather than just being armoured machine gun?)
I have another idea,
That is, to give Canadians a temporory "main" somewhere else when mortar battery is lost, here are my arguments
1. Canadian armour shouldn't be cut-off just because of a flanking action, it just don't make sense you can cut off enemy armour with simply infantry.
2. The temporory main should exist only when the canadians still hold the 2 flags in the town. So it would be the fault of the canadians if they can't hold the rest of the flags when a backcap occurs.
3. Give the Germans some heavy weapons when they captured the mortar battery, such as PaK guns and panzerschrecks to defend their gains against canadians attempting to recap.
The only problem that this idea would cause is that the Canadians would have a lot of armour when mortar battery is recap very quickly afterwards, which makes the map imbalanced.
Rather than that, perhaps tie some of the Sherman they get now to other flags? For example, Two are keyed the Mortar position, and spawn there, but maybe there is also one each tied to North Lambert and the middle Lambert flag which spawn to east of their respective flags (perhaps along the main North-South road leading from Mortar Battery).
Although, it kinda serves the Canadians right if they lose their back flag to lose most of their advantages... Maybe just making Mortar Battery a multi-man cap with a relatively long gray and cap time? Or leave it as is if the Germans are losing their forward Infantry spawn at round start...
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Although, it kinda serves the Canadians right if they lose their back flag to lose most of their advantages... Maybe just making Mortar Battery a multi-man cap with a relatively long gray and cap time? Or leave it as is if the Germans are losing their forward Infantry spawn at round start...
Definetly no! Did you ever checked the capzone of Mortar-Battery? It is the 2m around the flag in the open. If you see enemys on the flag just throw a grenade there and the problem is solved. If you want to cap it, there is nothing with hiding somewhere, you have to assault the square and stay there in the open, without cover.
As said before: If a team (no matter if german or canadian) loses this flag it deserved it.
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I think both sides should get armor reinforcements as the battle progresses. Like the germans have a Main base on Goodwood. You can give the canadians a mainbase up north with 2 Halftracks, and when several flags are captured, they get some extra tanks their, aswel as the germans.
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I'm not a fan of this map. Too many flags too close together turn it into a flag chasing exercise for the Allies. Although the terrain seems quite enclosed the truth is that a number of the flags are actually rather open for the spawning defenders and too easily covered by the Germans who remain more concealed and extremely hard to counter-attack. An exercise in frustration once the first two flags have fallen.
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I thought you died... Good to see you back, Slyspy.
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It lives!
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Great map. I guess i think its good as it is :) I like the flags close like this. It kinda is a flag chasing exercise indeed, but its funnier than a long running exercise. Theyre perfectly close for an infantry map , at least, imo.
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Not sure when the Push-map style was implemented to this map but it's seriously broken right now.
Why the German forces can capture the town flags while still the push would command them to go to Church and Destroyed battery flags.
Another then would be the mortar battery being 3rd flag to capture and if Germans take this one, it's pretty much game over for Aussies because one simple squad that is competent on defending can easily hold off the place due to the easily camped access points from the houses. And Aussies can't even recap the southernmost flags due to the push-lock, which seriously breaks the map.
It was fine when all flags were cap at will, right now it's just frustrating to play.
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i agree the previous version was much better
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ta0, why didn't I kill you when I had a chance...
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ta0, why didn't I kill you when I had a chance...
;D ;D ;D
common. the last version was better for both axis as allies
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No it wasn't. In the original the town had too much horrible hopping over walls/fences (or failing, if the fence/wall was a wee bit too high) and too much clear firelanes to block any advance. Now it's properly chaotic urban warfare with a thousand routes and places to hide.
Also, in the original the match could be won in a minute by the Germans, by the time people with older computers were still loading the map. If the Germans had a fireteam that managed to load their map fast enough, they simply grabbed a 251, forded the river, took a shortcut through the western OOB zone to bypass Church and the hedgerow (if you know exactly where you're heading you will make it through the zone alive before the timer kills you), and then ran to the Mortar flag which was usually not manned yet. Now, this could have been avoided by simply keeping a squad in rearguard duty, but public is as public does, and so we got the pushmode instead. The shortcut is IIRC still possible but with the pushmode requiring the capture of Church & Destroyed battery before Mortar it at least gives the Canucks a fighting chance: if the first two flags have fallen, half the Canadian team is queueing for the tanks, preventing an easy capture.
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Gotta say, i love the way the buildings are now made. +1 for the great job
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I agree of the static changes. makes both areas more fun to fight in.
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and whoever remade the stengun for 2.26......naise
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the stengun was changed?
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I dunno.. it just behaves much more better in battle.
It finnaly pwns the MP40 on close range like it should.
MP40 is still better on longer ranges though
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Both guns are exactly the same, only the sight is different.
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Which reminds me of how I hate those new Thompson sights... oh well :P
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This route should be blocked.
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then another german sneak route should be also closed ;)
DONT touch the sneak routes!
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This route should be blocked.
I'm afraid not. The route can be used by BOTH teams if they want, which means it has no problem. But the map should be somewhat bigger though, the region from A1 to D5 are not used, I think this is kinda waste.
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I always loved this map, one of my favorites. This map represent the battle of the city of Falaise, but concerning the "closing" of the pocket, Hill 262 should represent more the closing of the pocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_262) I know that devs are working on Bulge and in the future, on Ostfront, but if, one day, they decide to make another map for Normandy, a map reprensenting the battle around Hill 262 could be a very interresting map. :P
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Actually this is a fairly accurate representation of St Lambert, not falaise. Hill 262 is not in that are at all.
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This route should be blocked.
I'm afraid not. The route can be used by BOTH teams if they want, which means it has no problem. But the map should be somewhat bigger though, the region from A1 to D5 are not used, I think this is kinda waste.
I think all routes like that should be blocked. Routes like that are just retarded, most people don't even know about them and others don't bother to watch them, as almost no one knows about them. On map it looks like it is not passable route, if mapper wants it to be used, he should make it wider and easily seen on map imho. Better to get rid of it tough.
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Either all routes removed or all routes stay. Let us not be biased
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I played Falaise earlier tonight and that camping spot for the Panther in G 6/ G7 area was sufficient to kill off half the playerbase.
If a mapper sees fit, it would be appreciated if the Eastern portion of the map was tweaked to either remove the camping spots entirely, or to make them easier for infantry to hold. The point of Falaise gap and the courageous defence by Triquet and his men was their tenacious hold upon the main road that in turn devastated columns of German vehicles and armour and I feel that the map as it stands does not reflect that fact at all.
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I don't want to bitch because I really like this map, but I like it because (apart from getting to play as the Canadians) it has so much potential, but to be honest the God awful truth it this map frustrates me like no other. As Canadians you get mortared constantly, the arty never stops, and for anyone on the Allied side of this map the chances are almost 50/50 (which is ridiculous when you think about it) that you will be killed by an enemy it is physically impossible for you to kill.
I'm not against mortars or arty like some people are, I get that they're necessary and they add to the gameplay, but you are killed by them way, way too much on this map for it to really ever be enjoyable. I played Falaise yesterday and spawned at the middle Lambert flag, and in it's infinite wisdom the BF2 engine placed me in the exact same building four spawns in a row. And guess what? I was killed within 2 seconds of spawning four spawns in a row. It was like watching dominoes fall over, because after the first death, my dead body was still there when I spawned again, making a nice target to aim for when I was killed yet again.
The other main problem I have with this map is that it's in that nasty spot between a push map with a visible front of fighting, and a flag-tag map where you can spread out and attack individual flags all over a large area in any manner you wish. There's strategy in both of those, but Falaise is between them, and thus the same thing happens round after round after round. The first two flags are being fought over, and then one German sneaks through the forest and caps one of the Lambert flags. A couple Canadians go to hunt him down, and while they're recapping the one he capped, he's capping another one of them. Eventually this means the first two flags are defended not nearly as well as they should be, because before long half the team has to fall back and deal with the backcappers, and then the battery and the church fall one after the other and even if the Canadians do manage to get a hold of all three city flags again, it doesn't matter, because now the mortar battery is cappable and there is always a German hiding in the bushes next to it to grab it. It's a frustration battle and not an enjoyable one - I think most players don't mind losing if there's something they can learn from it, something they can do better next time to prevent it, but there is never any of that on this map. There's no cunning to the German strategy, there's never a feeling of having been bested by a better enemy. It's the same people sneaking around the same routes every single time. The Canadians have no time to prepare at the beginning of the round, and whether you die for the first time 10 seconds into it or 10 minutes depends entirely on where the game spawns you. Which doesn't seem right when the whole point of the map is the Canadians need to defend the flags. One of the biggest problems is, again, time - there is no time for the Canadians to prepare at all. The German infantry might as well spawn on the Allied side of the river, because they're all across it within 15 seconds of the round starting. Moving those spawn points back to around the farm in C6 alone could improve this map tremendously.
You can say that a good team could prevent all of this, and that's perfectly true. But public servers produce good squads, not good teams. On Falaise, there's never a feeling of 'Oh shit, they've broken through and they're greying that flag over there, let's all go and send them home' - the feeling is 'For fuck's sakes, this is the third time someone's sneaked around behind us and greyed it this round'. It's similar to the way the round ends, which is always 10-40 tickets for the Germans when the Canadians hit 0. You don't spend the loading of the next map thinking 'Damn, we nearly had'em! Just a little better next time and we can take that map'. What you really walk away thinking is 'If that fucking mortar had ten less shells the Germans would lose this map every time'. You never feel like you've been outfoxed by a clever German side, just angered by the fact you know the three or four tricks they will use to win and are powerless to stop them all at once.
The middle Lambert flag in F4 can be approached by inf almost entirely through trees and brush. Mortar battery can be approached around the outside, again with inf rarely needing to leave cover, and both routes include multiple out-of-bounds paths most people won't think to cover. Hanomags can easily speed down the roads early on in the map as well, before the Canadian tanks can do very much to stop it:
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9681/falaise1.png)
The yellow lines are the usual infantry routes used every single round, and the blue is the APC race.
There are several spots where German tanks can camp for a very long time and not worry about any kind of return fire: the woods in E4 and E5 (and if it's an SL in one of those tanks, the round is basically over), behind the hedge in G4, blowing up every Canadian tank before they can even see it and having a wide open field to MG any inf trying to take them out (all the while spawnraping the entire middle of the map) and especially in G7, where there is a wall there that is one inch low enough for a Panther to sit behind it, hang the gun over the wall, and completely control the battle. In this position the Panther (or Panzer IV) actually offers a smaller target than an infantry soldier would. I actually managed to destroy a Panther doing this the other day, but that was only because I had one APDS round left in the 6-pounder and had rolled it to a gap in the hedgerows, and the Panther didn't see me. I was then knifed by a German who had snuck up behind me, even though in that spot I continuously had to roll the 6-pounder forward to avoid being killed for being out-of-bounds.
So I have two ideas on how to make this map more fair and make it a lot more fun - one idea operates assuming that the map itself could be changed a bit, and the other operates under the assumption that the map stays as it is, but vehicles and weapons on it can be changed instead. I have played Falaise about 20 times so far, so forgive me if I suggest something that is already on the map and I haven't come across it.
Option 1 - changing the map. The first thing I would do is open the out-of-bounds area up on the western side of the map while tightening it on the eastern side. The two red lines are the general idea. I would move the middle St. Lambert flag westwards by two grids to become the Farm flag (or St. Lambert West, whatever). Maybe some buildings could be added, or maybe whatever is already there is just fine. The road leading to the (currently out-of-bounds) farm could be bridged across the river, and either a road made to lead up to German territory or the bridge could be completely independent of roads, even if tanks can still get across it. I would widen up the river slightly as well, to make absolutely sure no vehicles can ford it and infantry can't just super-swim across in five seconds. There was an idea earlier in the thread that I really like, this being adding a flag (white at the start of the round) at the edge of the river on the German side, and once they cap it (in five seconds, it's like a beach landing flag), then they get the spawnpoints right on the river they have now. The removal of the middle city flag is crucial - it is the only one of the three that barely requires a German soldier to reveal himself (the forest almost goes right to it), and once that flag is capped it's only about ten seconds until one (or both if it's an SL) of the other flags is going down because they are so close to each other. Moving the middle flag westwards to the farm in the now totally in-bounds area means the flags are spread out nicely. This also means artillery and mortars from the German side of the river cannot just keep aiming at the middle of the city and killing you over and over and over again - the defense is spread out, while all that shit still plays a pivotal role, it's not the gamechanger.
The main idea here though is to remove part of the crucialness the woods in E4 and E5 play. Right now all they are is a nuisance, no one on the Canadian side wants to sit there all round watching them while the battle is taking place half a map away. With the map opened up, and two different places for panzers to cross the river (but the two bridges are out of sight of one another), this wooded area would still be a key part of the German attack, but it would be an expected part. Allies would know to keep their eyes peeled for Germans in the area, and those Germans can now be attacked from any direction, requiring a competent team to wreak havoc from there, and not just one guy in a Panzer IV that PIATS can't hurt.
This is what I've come up with off the top of my head:
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/511/falaise2.png)
Double red lines - a rough sketch of where the out-of-bounds lines are moved back to.
Green arrow - where the middle city flag is moved to.
Pink - a possible spot for a bridge to be placed.
Spawn circle - the German flag they can cap easily that allows river-spawning.
Blue and white lines - if the eastern boundaries are to remain the same, they should be tightened up to prevent people taking routes that are more OoB than in. Equally fine would be to move them back to incorporate the routes the Germans already take into fair game territory that can be defended as well.
The second idea is this, assuming the map is not changed at all but that kits, weapons and vehicles could be.
1 - Ditch the two Sherman IIs and give the Canadians a Cromwell spawning at mortar battery, and (maybe) a Churchill spawning there as well. Both are on Totalize so that shouldn't be a problem. The Canadians still have the same amount of tanks, but instead of two useless shitboxes that are destroyed instantly, there is a fast tank that can run up the street at the start of the round to support the front flags, and the Churchill so the Canadians have at least one armored vehicle that isn't 1-hit KO'd by anything the Germans have. If the Canadians got both, I would have no problem with the Germans getting an extra Panther or StuG or whatever. Keep in mind these can always be triggered by outside events - say the Churchill doesn't spawn until the first two flags fall, or x amount of minutes into the round.
2 - Keep the 6-pounders we have and where we have them, but make them all mobile. It's too easy for German tanks to sit out of view on the other side of hedges, then rush forward (knowing exactly where the Canadian AT guns are because you can't move them), fire HE at them and then run off again. This would keep German tankers on their toes.
3 - Put an AT mines kit somewhere for the Canadians. The Brits have a few on Goodwood, so I don't see this being a problem. Just one kit would be enough.
4 - Make the St. Lambert flags required 2 to cap, not one. I can just about live with an enemy squad taking those flags, but every round, it's almost always one guy in any number of a dozen buildings, ruining the day.
5 - Move the German river spawnpoints back one grid to the west. Just to give the Canadians an extra 10 seconds to prepare.
6 - Give the Canadians a half-track at one of the first two flags, for MG support. (I know they already have Bren Carriers on this map but no one ever uses them for anything other than a taxi).
I can't think of anything else at the moment. I hope this map is sharpened up a bit because it has the potential to be brilliant, but I've yet to have any fun on it at all.
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Wow, Andrew. I'm fighting the strong urge to stand up and applaud after reading that post. That is an incredibly accurate assessment of the current map and some phenomenal ideas for how to improve it. I honestly completely agree with everything you've said.
It seems like I play Falaise almost every time I log on, and while it is a simply gorgeous map, the gameplay issues you outline are a big source of annoyance to me.
Hats off to you my friend for the insight and I urge the Devs to give that post a good read over.
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You summed up problems pretty well andrew. Can't say anything about solutions as those pictures just wont load :-\.
Edit: I think it's that stupid imageshack >:(. I'm really having problems with images uploaded there. I'm using 8M connection right now and everything else works perfectly.
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As it is now, the OOB area in E4-E5 is still very problematic, because with careful planning, you can run through that and be in E3 before you notice- while being covered from incoming fire by the impenetrable hedgerow. No need to risk your life by running through the hedgerow gap in F5 (the one in church yard). If the Canadian team does not leave some serious firepower guarding this approach route - which is away from their frontline flags - a competent German team can steamroll all three Lambert flags in quick order.
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A fun fact is that the first Version of this map used to have a flag at the Farm D4, hence the modelled area there. =) I can't recall why it was removed, but I'll check if I can find the passage on the reasoning. Cheers
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You summed up problems pretty well andrew. Can't say anything about solutions as those pictures just wont load :-\.
Edit: I think it's that stupid imageshack >:(. I'm really having problems with images uploaded there. I'm using 8M connection right now and everything else works perfectly.
I put them on imgur for you, maybe they work now:
The first one, German infantry routes: http://i.imgur.com/324YZ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/324YZ.jpg)
The second one, how I'd change the map: http://i.imgur.com/VFJ7h.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VFJ7h.jpg)
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Thanks!
I think that is actually nice idea on western side, but on east side I would keep current borders, just tighten them up so that it's impossible to go behind those bushes. Maybe make some "E" shaped bushes, so that one would have to go further away to OOB area to get around.
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I think that's a good idea too. I'm all for multiple points of attack and sneaky routes but Out-of-Bounds routes are a whole different animal. It's not like on Ramelle where you're just taking a shortcut to defend your own flags.
Anyone got any other thoughts on Falaise? I really do like this map, I just wish it was living up to its potential.
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I'll be damned :D.
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/887/screen001n.jpg)
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Winning Falaiase as allied isn't really rare. Well, at least for me it isn't. Winning Totalize as allied however... (still waiting for first allied victory since 2.4 :'()
I guess this is very player dependent, I mean, I was having a discussion about Bulge maps, and while Eppeldorf was the tough nut to crack for me as US, a fellow BT had trouble winning Bastogne as allies. We were both surprised about our respective trouble.
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You are probably proving your own point, because I've yet to see the Germans ever win on Totalize. Granted, that map CTDs for me quite a bit but I can't recall the Canadians ever having much trouble winning Totalize, whereas yesterday was my first Falaise victory as a Canadian (you can see my Sherman in the screenshot, prowling the hedges for sneaky Germans of which I killed plenty). On Totalize, the first two flags fall easily and once the Canadians are across the bridge you just start dicking around, wishing the Germans didn't have an uncap so the round wouldn't drag on for another 30 minutes. Bastogne's a funny map because Americans always win on the big version from what I've seen (the two flank flags distracting the advancing Germans sufficiently to stall their attack), while the Germans nearly always slaughter the Americans on the 32 version, for obvious reasons. The Americans likewise win the 16 nearly every time because they have a jeep that can speed along to Mont and they've capped it + laid ten S-mines before the Germans even get there.
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First a minor point for the ones of us the like snipering.
The Germans get a G43 ZF in there base and in the church. I think with its smaler zoom it can make some sence. But the G43 ZF in the German base doesnt make much sence, because there are many good sniper spots which are great with the British sniper (which has the same zoom as the K98 ZF), but with a G43 ZF you lack the zoom to shoot effectifly. Therefore I suggest to repalce the German sniper in the base with a K89 ZF, I d also like to see the G43 in the chruch replaced, but it would be okay to keep it for diversity.
(No not a sniper noob speaking who just cant hande the G43 ZF, look at 762 ranking)
Id also like to see the map become more of an infantry map. That is to reduce tanks and arty for both sides. Get rid of one mortar pickup kit for BOTH sides.
The Allies should loose one Sherman, the Germans should loose one Panther (and maybe the Panzer IV)
The backcapping of St. Lambert North or Destroyed Battery when the frontline is far away is also quite redicoluse in my opinion, so I d like a harder pushcode (for both sides), but this is not the post for such a discussion.
I also like Andrews suggestion of altering the map, it would make it bigger and I am pretty sure it would erease those battles where the Germans cant even cross the river. Since it makes the map bigger the Arty wouldnt be that bad anymore and the tanks wouldnt be as concentrated as there are today. Godd job with that. Id really like to see an other bridge plus command post!
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Played this map last night and it played out exactly the same as it always does. Germans snuck through E4 and flag-tagged the three Lambert flags. One when white, some Canadians fell back, recapped it as another went white. Some more fell back and recapped as the third went white. And repeat. Shockingly, the front two flags were swiftly capped by the Germans, even though they had been held at bay magnificently before then. I'm not trying to complain, I just wish this map was as good as it could be, and it doesn't seem right to me that I can have two entire flags between me and the German main, and still possibly be attacked from any direction and get raped by artillery anyway.
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This map has been heavily improved for the upcoming patch :)
Looking forward to your feedback on it
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Too much Tanks and Arty for such an small Sector Push map. It is more Slaugthering than in 2.4 :D
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2.46 changelog for Falaise Pocket 64
- Removed 2 of the 4 Shermans.
- Fixed spawning in St Lambert (only Natty knows what this means).
- Fixed the greasy cobblestone terrain (sliding Opels, 6pdrs, etc.)
Note: we're not done with this map yet, the balancing fixes above are more like a temporal solution.
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2.47 changelog for Falaise Pocket 64
- Deleted useless 6 Punder that was sunk into the ground
- Deleted unhistorical static Lewis Guns
- Changed some spawn points
- Added G41 pickup kits
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"Unhistorical Lewis Guns"
Curious what the unhistorical-ness is. Was the Canadian unit depicted in the map not equipped with Lewis guns? Lewis not in service in 1944?
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2.52 changelog for Falaise Pocket 64
- Deleted the German howitzer and the Canadian mortar pickup kit. This should hopefully cut down the arty rape a bit.
- Added a mortar in place of the deleted howitzer.
- Added a halftrack with Vierling at the flak battery for fire support.
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Yesterday I was playing this map and I noticed that one of the spawnpoints of the Church flag spawns the players in front of the southwestern wall of the church - the direction where the german attack comes. It is very hard not to spawnrape.
Unless I am mistaken and those cannucks were spawning form a SL?
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Yes, indeed, there is a Canadian spawnpoint on the wrong side of the church, it will be fixed in the next release.
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Where so?
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Once the allies are pushed back to the last flag it is impossible to get out, the game is over right there. Perhaps they could spawn 2 more tanks to help getting out of the bottle neck.
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I think capturing that last flag is hard enough already. I don’t think it was ever meant to be playable (didn’t it used to be an uncap main in the first release?) and when Canadians are pushed back, they and their tanks just get spawn camped while the Germans move in.
Maybe we should look into making it an uncap with an ABC line and making the North St Lambert flag the last one in the push progression.
Also the amount of firepower on this map is too high atm. With the StuH, mobile Flak, mortars, panthers, fireflies etc.... it’s quite spammy for the infantry. Not to mention the Canadian impact grenades :P
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I've always felt the last flag is just sort of a battle against time. Eventually the Germans will push through, but if they don't have a lot of tickets left it might be just enough for the Canadians to win.
Also the amount of firepower on this map is too high atm. With the StuH, mobile Flak, mortars, panthers, fireflies etc.... it’s quite spammy for the infantry. Not to mention the Canadian impact grenades :P
Indeed. Why is there even a Flak apc?
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2.56 Changelog for Falaise Pocket 64
- Fix Canadian Player Models to use all variants
- Sdkfz 7 with flakvierling spawning at Destroyed Battery removed
- forward spawning PAK40s removed
- bedford_qlt_6pdr removed from last Canadian flag