Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => General Discussion => Topic started by: EpicFoodEpic on 27-07-2013, 20:07:41

Title: Development progress?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 27-07-2013, 20:07:41
How's the progress on the development of the soviet faction going?? the last update on the homepage was back on 12.06.2013.Is the mod slowly dying?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 27-07-2013, 20:07:10
Nope ...  ::)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 27-07-2013, 20:07:43
How's the online community going? I've uninstalled my bf2/Fh2 becuase i got bored somehow..lol

It's good if there are still some guys playing online or bunch of offline players bashing about the bots on this forum.

About the development of this mod,Are they slowly quitting the development of the game or it's just because of the lack of modelers/scripters stuff?.I am really excited about the soviet faction(not only me)so please go on with the development.I know we got issues on the pop of players/supporters of this mod.hmm how about a  exposure to steam will do? or try to advertise on facebook(4play page?)

Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Damaso on 27-07-2013, 21:07:09
(i dont like were this conversation is going...)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 27-07-2013, 21:07:09
 Ill address this...

 The hold up is maps. Not enough of them. Not enough mappers making them.

 The community is still active. About 150 - 200 players play daily.

 1 server to control them all....(LOTR reference insert giggle :P)


 Check back Summer 2014....
 ;)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 28-07-2013, 02:07:13
Hmm..how about ask for help from the project reality guys after they release there 1.0?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-07-2013, 03:07:23
I'm sure any PR dev who wants to work on FH2 would be welcome, I just don't know how many there are ;)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Jupp-FH1/2 on 30-07-2013, 22:07:39
I'm pretty sure development on this mod is dead. It takes months to get any update on work being done, the pic of the week has been same for months at a time. There's nothing in the developers blog and no real news in almost a year.

All we've gotten since last patch has been renders of things completed years ago. They say that mapping is the real issue, yet there is tons of mappers out there and making a BF2 map doesn't take years.

They broke the game last patch with angle mod and hitbox adjustments, yet no incremental patch to fix issues or anything of the like.

The lackadaisical way that devs have given the community news from the beginning all but ensured that interest in this mod would die pretty quickly.

They did a great job, but I think it shows that even devs are giving up on anything meaningful happening with this mod in future.

Let us know where this mod really stands and what work is currently being done in an open and frank manner. I'm sure that it would attract those who can help and let community know that this mod still has some life left.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: greenMIKO on 30-07-2013, 22:07:23
Yea, and i'm sure it will help the devs to stay motivated when you keep saying that the mod is dead and all that crap. ::) Just let the devs do their job and eventually we will have a new update.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: djinn on 31-07-2013, 00:07:40
The last update was in june. Unless that's a year to you.
And as a beta tester, i know for a fact they have lots more they just haven't decided to showcase.

I know cuz i still play the beta for the Russian campaign.

This happened a few years back, just before we won MOTY.

The devs burn out from contant developing, the beta testers burn out from constant testing, and Summer is a hard time for everyone.

Things will pick up. The devs are pushing to get a very rich Eastern Front out.
When that will be, I'm sure I don't know,

But yes, optimism does help a bit since these people have been working their ass off on this besides their day jobs, nevermind coming up with one of the best mods, I'll say the best mod for Battlefield 2.

We still get a 128player server of up to 110 people almost every day. at least we get 80 or 75.
This will keep I think, till the next update.


And when you say 'already', please define that? Cuz last I checked, FH2 begun development in 2006.
That's hardly 'already'.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Jupp-FH1/2 on 31-07-2013, 16:07:37
nevermind coming up with one of the best mods, I'll say the best mod for Battlefield 2.

Now you're just delusional. The mod is a very impressive 2nd place, but calling it the best mod for BF2 is a bit of a stretch.

This is part of the problem, the community hardly gets any real news on whats being worked on. You can wait months for update and all you get is a render and some background info on the weapon/vehicle. Would be nice to know what is being tested, what is completed. Some actual information relating to the development, not just a description of something anyone can find on Wiki

It's like there's this air of secrecy. Then when you wonder if development has stopped, people get hurt feelings.

If this mod isn't dead please act like it, it doesn't take hours to change the pic of the week or do quick update with some news or info. The fact that it can take so long for anything to change, gives the impression that even the people working on the mod don't care anymore. This isn't the first mod that I have followed through the years, so don't kid yourselves.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Musti on 31-07-2013, 17:07:45
Fh2 on 2nd place? Whats on the 1st place then?
Dead mods don't have active forums and servers full of players. Thats just how devs roll, keeping quiet about their work.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 31-07-2013, 18:07:01
Forum/online gameplay:active
Game/mod development:?

On another hand,PR 1.0 is now available to download although the password for the installer would be available on the 2nd of august.So to the devs out there maybe you can now contact the PR devs for a little help.


(Don't wanna pay for red orchestra >.>)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: jackson on 01-08-2013, 01:08:08
sorry for question but PR 1.0 its finall version? No more new releases?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 01-08-2013, 01:08:51
No new releases but they will keep updating it as long as there are players.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: THeTA0123 on 01-08-2013, 01:08:13
Forum/online gameplay:active
Game/mod development:?

On another hand,PR 1.0 is now available to download although the password for the installer would be available on the 2nd of august.So to the devs out there maybe you can now contact the PR devs for a little help.

Obvious PR Fanboy here

PR is PR and FH2 is FH2. Last time i saw the PR folks on this forum, they talked about turing FH2 into PR:FH2.

Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Ahonen on 01-08-2013, 03:08:49
Meh. It's been god knows how long since the last update which broke tank combat, and it was a given that with gameplay elements being damaged in such dramatic ways the playerbase would drop. A fix never came, the devblogs are all but dead, news are really scarce and whenever I log on there's not even one full server up.
Unless a huge advertising campaign is raised upon Eastern Front release (alongside major fixes of course) to try and bring a batch of sovok players in, the mod will never recover. If the Eastern Front fails to bring a stable playerbase (not just people who'll play for a week after release and leave), FH2 will have drawn its last breath.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2w4wdpx.jpg)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 01-08-2013, 06:08:57
I disagree, even vanilla BF2 still has at least a thousand players on 24/7, much lower than what it had on release and still it is played. Granted it is more popular than mods but the ratio carries over. It's an individual's choice to play or not to play anymore, and most people who stop are simply tired of the same BF2 engine, or what have you. What's really happening over the past few years and months is that the less content and hard to please players are reaching their limits and moving on.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 01-08-2013, 09:08:23
I still have faith in one or two eastern front patch. But I predict FH2 would be dead after that, hopefully it would die on a version without silly and broken gameplay like the current one :-\.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 01-08-2013, 09:08:42
If they fix the tank system I might play more often again and bring along one or two people. Maybe the !@! guys would return; would be nice I think. New version has to be good gameplaywise (not qualitywise, FH2s quality of assets and map always was top notch in my opinion) because the quality of the game attracts many players but the gameplay keeps them to stay. When I discovered this mod first, I played SP only and loved all the carefully made weapons, vehicles and historical maps. It became a bit repetitive after a time and I dared to play online in 2.3.
Absolute mess on Mareth line, we got spawnraped at the tents by countless Shermans. I gave it a second try in 2.45 and was instantly hooked. Played it every day I could until 2.45. Now I play once per month maybe. It is sad to see all those players go you used to play with. At least, when I join, I see many names I don't know at all so there is atleast new players joining FH2.
So, I am still faithfull too.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Mudzin on 01-08-2013, 13:08:18
I know how long it takes to make a new content for this mod, especially maps with such high standards. But FFS, devs should have release shortly a new fixing patch - angle mod and new maps which looks awesome, but are unplayable.... Now playing FH2 is just pain in the ass...  ::)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 01-08-2013, 13:08:44
@THeTA0123

 Lol i'm not a fanboy,actually i've uninstalled PR months ago,What i am saying is that the PR devs may help on the development of the mod. PR:FH2? If they would help of course we should credit them for what they have done and maybe some PR players might try FH2 thus making the community bigger :D

I think it's the only way to keep this thing going as the devs surely needs a hand.Even if the devs are working silently the player counts would surely drop by time because there are no longer updates being published here.

I hope this game won't wither away :(
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: NTH on 01-08-2013, 15:08:52
Not dead, just not communicating, which may end with the same results.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: RAnDOOm on 01-08-2013, 15:08:38

- Battle of Stoumont
- Elsenborn Ridge
- Advance on Foy
- Herrlisheim
- Battle of Manhay
- and many more


coming very very soon....    8)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Roughbeak on 01-08-2013, 19:08:20

- Battle of Stoumont
- Elsenborn Ridge
- Advance on Foy
- Herrlisheim
- Battle of Manhay
- and many more


coming very very soon....    8)

Haha... 8)

Hate to say it again, but it was a very cold July with no updates ;D
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 01-08-2013, 22:08:19
Interesting to see people talking about stuff, that they know sh*t about. First time you roll on an eastern front map you will sh*t bricks.  ;D

Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Roughbeak on 01-08-2013, 22:08:28
Interesting to see people talking about stuff, that they know sh*t about. First time you roll on an eastern front map you will sh*t bricks.  ;D
Yes, I just might. ;)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Professor Anthrax on 02-08-2013, 01:08:07
[shameless plug] The mods only dead if people stop playing so let's get over to Wolf WaW FH2 Thursday for some fun and frivolity NOW! That's an order! [/shameless plug]
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Erwin on 02-08-2013, 12:08:50
Hmm, 1 more week for something new. Keep waiting.  :P
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 02-08-2013, 13:08:13
Hmm, 1 more week for something new. Keep waiting.  :P

how did ya know?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Turkish007 on 02-08-2013, 15:08:15
Did Forgotten Honor and FH devteam share some content? ;D

(Hope we get that R71 to be official)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Guzkovek on 02-08-2013, 17:08:53
In long term? Yup, it's dead and even cold. Old guard, like hslan guys, have left game short after 2.45 relase. This year changed a lot. Old players won't come back, they have found new games or other activities in 'normal life'. Policy of relasing one massive patch just don't work when 2.45 isn't perfect and is kiss of death for whole mod. 
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Mattitatti on 02-08-2013, 18:08:40
Well atleast im sure we gonna get more players after Eastern front.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Thorondor123 on 03-08-2013, 16:08:52
FH2 is not dead. It's just in a coma... and we're thinking about switching off the life-support.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: mopskind on 03-08-2013, 16:08:42
:( :( Well i know you guys damn well won't make hasty decisions, and me personally I wouldn't even be surprised.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 03-08-2013, 17:08:53
Dear devs reading this thread(If they are still here) please tell something,something like "wtf ur sayin we are still here u little b****" just wait for the release". You need to be in touch with the players to ensure the success of the mod,I'm sure you don't want to release a masterpiece created for like years for just a 100 players.

Devs
reply pls
devs
y
u
no
reply?
we
need
hope
...
...
...
forgotten hope...


Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: LuckyOne on 03-08-2013, 21:08:40
More will come, eventually. It doesn't end here!

... I hope...

 Just be patient, remember the devs are spending their free time so your a** can enjoy the content they make. Don't ask too much, and be happy when they give us a insight in their work.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: KevinWad on 04-08-2013, 03:08:58
I think I'm going to panic  :-X
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Turkish007 on 04-08-2013, 18:08:34
I think most of the developers are on sandy beaches, dancing with hot chicks with thongs, and sipping their colourful cocktail with a small umbrella on it.

When winter comes, we'll get updates more frequently I guess.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 04-08-2013, 19:08:40
FH2 is dead. However, it has been dead before, including before the 2.0 release. So, chillax, I guess?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Turkish007 on 04-08-2013, 19:08:27
It will be resurrected like how it happened in 2.40?

Well, as you say.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Catwisel on 05-08-2013, 11:08:22
Well in my opinion the mod is, as
FH2 is not dead. It's just in a coma... and we're thinking about switching off the life-support.
mentioned, cold.

From time to time i play some rounds on the 762 servers and the old memories comes back for a moment, but the sessions didn't reach the quality of gameplay what i experience on our old server (hslan ;D). Hell it was amazing battles when my old buddys the hslan guys fight along or against the exvas or these dlf clan guys. Well nowadays there is nothing comparable out there, maybe ro:hos is alternative or the mod transaction wars, but i guess nothing will reach the hughe ammount of stuff what we got from fh2......

My hopes are with the devs and maybe the mod will rise again like a phoenix from ashes.  :-\


Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 05-08-2013, 13:08:05
You are aware that an FH2 campaign is in the making from Forgotten Honor (http://www.forgottenhonor.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=56709)?

Huh you were not?

Well now you are. This mod is far from dead playabillity wise. People still play it and we keep hosting tournaments. Now the fact that it has stopped to rest and reload before going on with updates is no reason to be scared. In due time it will start again.

Bunch of pansies.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Erwin on 05-08-2013, 15:08:04
The new campaign is very close, stay tuned. Lots of new stuff with many new maps, it's gonna be awesome!
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Lightning on 05-08-2013, 17:08:30
There are several things wrong with this thread. The first one being the word 'already'. Forgotten Hope was founded before the release of Battlefield 1942 and therefore is at least 11 years old. If you know of any mods that have existed for that long without switching over to a commercial model I'm sure it can't be many.

The second thing is that making a thread with the words "mod dead" in it is probably the best way to keep new players from downloading it.

Now, as far as I can tell, even Forgotten Hope 1 is played pretty extensively still, so I'm pretty sure Forgotten Hope 2 will have a player base for some years to come.

Now as for the development, while I am still listed as a 'developer', I haven't actively participated in the development of Forgotten Hope since the release of 2.45. I only visit the internal forum sparingly, so I don't have the full picture of what is going on.

The development of the mod is by no means a continuous process, it has periods of high activity and periods in which pretty much nothing is being done. It all depends on the people who are working on it. This isn't a commercial enterprise, developers have jobs or studies that require their attention and these things are not always regular and predictable (one of the primary reasons we cannot predict release dates).

While periods of low activity are normal, the mod is currently in a period of no activity or certainly the lowest activity which I have ever seen it at and I've been with the mod for a long time.

However, the mod's development infrastructure is still all functioning, so the only thing it needs is active and enthusiastic developers who are willing to spend their free time on the mod. So don't lose hope. We are in the middle of the summer (I don't think there are developers on the southern hemisphere) and people are spending their time outside and on vacation. I think and I hope that in the autumn the few remaining developers with the assistance of the extremely dedicated core of beta testers (who in essence are semi-developers) will get together again and continue the development.

I know for sure that it would be too much of a shame for any dedicated developer, active or retired, to let all the amazing content that has not yet been released go to waste.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: [130.Pz]S.Lainer on 05-08-2013, 17:08:47
Did Forgotten Honor and FH devteam share some content? ;D

(Hope we get that R71 to be official)

R71 is WaW....And it is actually the Russian bike from Battlefield Korea that I re-skinned (with permission of course) and dropped a MG42 on.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 05-08-2013, 18:08:33
@Lightning thank you. 8) I know that the devs don't really owe any of us an explanation. But I think that's what a lot of us wanted was just some clarification about what has been going on behind the scenes during this quiet time.

And I'd really hope that even if development on this great mod ever stopped completely, that someone would be kind enough to step up and give this dedicated community the ability to play with all the toys that haven't yet been released. :)

I love and care about this mod and everything it has done for me and my gaming life in the past 9-10 years I've been playing it, and I'm sure a lot of other community members feel the same way. We have no room to complain or feel entitled to anything the devs have done for us (which is a little bit how this thread came off) that's why it means a lot to get an explanation as to what's going on behind the scenes :P
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Turkish007 on 05-08-2013, 18:08:13
Did Forgotten Honor and FH devteam share some content? ;D

(Hope we get that R71 to be official)

R71 is WaW....And it is actually the Russian bike from Battlefield Korea that I re-skinned (with permission of course) and dropped a MG42 on.

You got access to BF:K files?! Do you have the Hanyang?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-08-2013, 19:08:09
FH2 has access to all BF K files IIRC.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 05-08-2013, 19:08:41
Sad they never got released.

Is there anything that is in use from BF:K?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Lada.Rear.Drive on 05-08-2013, 19:08:39
(http://s24.postimg.org/lcp3ikvxh/07_minister_1.jpg)
I know for sure that it would be too much of a shame for any dedicated developer, active or retired, to let all the amazing content that has not yet been released go to waste.
It has been known to happen to countless other mods with great unreleased content. People just lose interest and fade away. If and when it happens I and many other fans of the mod just want to know about it. Don't leave us hanging. I've seen many mods do just that and it's annoying and disrespectful. There has to be closure.

I suspect Forgotten Hope 2 will go the same way as the original Forgotten Hope. Tournament organizations will still use it and keep developing their own content and maybe a community similar to Pixel-Fighter will pick up the slack and do their own minimod on top of the core mod.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 05-08-2013, 19:08:14
Is Pixel-Fighter still running?
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Slayer on 05-08-2013, 19:08:18
It has been known to happen to countless other mods with great unreleased content.
It has also been known that countless other mods have/had a much shorter life than FH.

I've seen many mods do just that and it's annoying and disrespectful.
Posting a pic of al-Sahaf after the closest thing to a dev-reply this thread has seen until now is not really respectful either.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 05-08-2013, 22:08:48
 Every time Lightning posts, i have a religious epiphany...

(http://runningpfuhl.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/wayne-world.jpg)



 ;D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Norman Rockwell on 06-08-2013, 00:08:24
Is Pixel-Fighter still running?

Yes they are, I just played on there yesterday. They have a huge amount of new FH1 maps, they usually run them on Saturday.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 06-08-2013, 02:08:32
and player numbers?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 06-08-2013, 05:08:17
Probably high ever since they let the Originies connect, I haven't played in months but back then there were about 20 people on every time I joined.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Knitschi on 06-08-2013, 07:08:42
Beeing stuck with the BF2 engine is what IMO kills the mod. If there is no hope for overcoming the limits of the current engine and therefore never see anything really new except for 3d content, would suck the motivation out of me if I was a developter.

The mod may live on for a couple of years with a small player base as it is, but it will finally die. And then all the blood and thears that have been spilled while creating all those nice 3d models will go to waste. I must admit that I start loosing interest myself, because I know that nothing really new will happen. Even a eastern front or a pacific front will have crappy driving physics and all the other problems of the engine.

I say it is time to push out a last good release that can be played for a while, pack all the models and textures into suitcases and then choose the best suited open source engine and port the game to it. Then the game might even draw new players and developers. With full controll over the engine, implementing new things will only be limited by the lack of manpower.

Maybe even I will roll up my sleves and help with fitting the target engine to our needs. I at least would take a look at the source code.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 11:08:08
Meh. It's been god knows how long since the last update which broke tank combat

..finally, someone agrees with what I was saying from day one after 2.45.

From that ridiculous 'rubber band' turret movement, where the damn thing just keeps rotating for about 2 secs after you stop moving your mouse, to the absurd 'angle mod' or whatever the fuck its called, to allied tanks being nerfed on most maps, in quantity and quality.

Tank combat just sucks donkey balls now...

Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 06-08-2013, 11:08:35
ridiculous 'rubber band' turret movement, where the damn thing just keeps rotating for about 2 secs after you stop moving your mouse

Sounds like someone has too much mouse sensitivity in his tank options. Might want to check on that.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 12:08:18
Sounds like someone has too much mouse sensitivity in his tank options. Might want to check on that.

..you really think after 12mths i haven't tried altering mouse sensitivity, both inside the game and 'on the fly' adjustable DPI on my Logitech G400 mouse?

c'mon...I'm not that stupid.

There was some kind of 'momentum' adjustment made in 2.45 and it made accurate tank turret movement almost impossible (relative to the previous release)

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kalkalash on 06-08-2013, 12:08:17
I agree with Defibkiller. I can't remove the swaying and sliding either (mouse on lowest sensitivity and ingame sensitivity as low as it can go). I haven't really tanked at all ever since the controls were changed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 12:08:57
I agree with Defibkiller. I can't remove the swaying and sliding either (mouse on lowest sensitivity and ingame sensitivity as low as it can go). I haven't really tanked at all ever since the controls were changed.

Get ready to be patronised and told it's all in your imagination.

Basically, the stock response from the dev's and their fanboys who don't want to admit they got something wrong.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 06-08-2013, 12:08:27
It's either that or assholes turing up their mouse sensitivity for lightning fast tank turrets, so suck it up.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 12:08:39
It's either that or assholes turing up their mouse sensitivity for lightning fast tank turrets, so suck it up.

Oh c'mon, so few people play nowdays, do you really need to worry about such things....

what about the 'assholes' who turn down all the lighting options, giving them far superior visibility on maps?, meaning they will, 9 times out of 10, get the drop on you.

Ruining tank combat for everyone just to counter the few idiots is stupid, especially with such a flawed and broken way of doing it...such shitty turret movement, means it makes camping in tanks the only really usable tactic, because trying to fire on the move is nigh on impossible with any accuracy.


 
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 06-08-2013, 13:08:15
..you really think after 12mths i haven't tried altering mouse sensitivity

Wouldnt surprise me tbh. The internet is full of people who are unable to think or solve problems on their own. Positive to know you arent one of them. :)

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 06-08-2013, 13:08:14
The mod has problems atm in certain areas, but turret movements is certainly not one of them. It is time to do your homeworks guys. And that allied tanks got nerfed and lowered in numbers is just hilarious. Time to fire up the mod and check what you are saying, before posting such enormous load of nonesense. Because this is simply spreading lies and nothing more.  ::)
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Strat_84 on 06-08-2013, 13:08:25
From that ridiculous 'rubber band' turret movement, where the damn thing just keeps rotating for about 2 secs after you stop moving your mouse ...
Set the sensitivity to 0.2 for tanks, make sure your mouse sensitivity isn't above 1000 dpi, refrain yourself from abruptly dragging your mouse (i.e. stay calm and control your movements).
Once you've learned it, aiming isn't that difficult, you can even shoot on the move. That's not as easy and accurate as it used to be previously, but it's doable. And don't forget it was also very hard IRL.  ;)

... to the absurd 'angle mod' or whatever the fuck its called ...
So you were a turret hatch lobbing adept ? Or the kind of people killing tanks with a shot from the front, hitting parallel to the side armor ?
Angle mod may have a few weird behaviours in particular situations, but it's anything but "absurd".

... to allied tanks being nerfed on most maps, in quantity and quality.
Ahahah, that's amusing to read this when there are, on the other side, quite a number of people complaining the Shermans are invincible.  ;D
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Lightning on 06-08-2013, 14:08:47
From that ridiculous 'rubber band' turret movement, where the damn thing just keeps rotating for about 2 secs after you stop moving your mouse, to the absurd 'angle mod' or whatever the fuck its called, to allied tanks being nerfed on most maps, in quantity and quality.

Tank combat just sucks donkey balls now...
Posts like this are hugely demotivating. If you don't want another release, this is exactly the kind of shit you should be posting. A lot of effort went into trying to improve the tank combat in 2.45 and if all you can say is that it "sucks balls" without any sort of recognition of the hundreds of hours of work that went into it then the best you can hope for is not getting told to fuck off.
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: Horstpetersens on 06-08-2013, 14:08:33
to allied tanks being nerfed on most maps, in quantity and quality.

wait what ?


not sure if stupid or just trolling ???
Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: mopskind on 06-08-2013, 14:08:06

Posts like this are hugely demotivating. If you don't want another release, this is exactly the kind of shit you should be posting. A lot of effort went into trying to improve the tank combat in 2.45 and if all you can say is that it "sucks balls" without any sort of recognition of the hundreds of hours of work that went into it then the best you can hope for is not getting told to fuck off.

Agreed. People tend to forget that they are enjoying the hard work of people who put in effort and time to create something for free. Constructive criticism should be and i think always was welcome, but being a bitch about everything that shatters your little special world is just not helpful for anybody
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 06-08-2013, 14:08:26
Get ready to be patronised and told it's all in your imagination.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif)

My personal 2.45 best-of:

"Well the hitboxes were adjusted, but nothing that would explain the blood splashes 24/7."
"Learn to aim, the Shermans are not OP. I always one-shot them."
"What? You think a Cromwell should not withstand 3 rounds AP from a King Tiger?
"No, a Panzerschreck was never supposed to penetrate a Sherman IRL."
"Bicycles were bulletproof in WW2, didn't you know that?"
"K98 has no added deviation. The SMLE is not better."
"Tank guns have no overdone random deviation added to the rounds they fire at 300m."


Respect to all the hard work that you guys have put into the mod until 2.40. Maybe even 2.45.
But for how long do you guys know now, that these issues exist? Not a tiny hotfix in so long a time.
I can understand people who are thinking that development has ceased.

There is no need to be frustrated, all the anger and disappointment that players carry to you after FH 2.45 prove one thing: Since FH 0.7 (that's where I started playing and loving FH) you guys have built a strong reputation for good gameplay (that considers the gamers' POV) and high quality modeling/mapping.

It proves that players, even if they voice them rudely like Defibkiller, have developed high hopes and expectancies towards your skills and abilities. If that does not motivate you, then what?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Horstpetersens on 06-08-2013, 14:08:31
time to set up the 2.4 server again
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 06-08-2013, 14:08:24
Get ready to be patronised and told it's all in your imagination.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif)
How childish. And you want to be taken seriously?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 06-08-2013, 14:08:16
I wish to. I don't want to. That would be childish. Read the rest of my post, if you are interested in a serious conversation.

Or google "humor", maybe even "irony". Btw.: Randoom started the popcorn thingie. It's been an ongoing thing ever since between the two of us. Nothing really aimed at you, Slayer. But you never fail to give your 2 pence to whatever I write, eh Slayer? :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 14:08:34
2.45 broke more than it fixed....end of story.

The decline in players tells it's own story.

Going back to 2.4 would be a blessed relief, at least the game would be enjoyable once more and maybe, just maybe, would encourage people back to the game.


Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Butcher on 06-08-2013, 15:08:08
The mod isn´t dead. There are a lot of members "sleeping", waiting for a new update.

Personally, I have played FH2 only about three or four times since February 2013. Before that I was ingame on a daily basis. I wasn´t able to play as I was in a foreign semester and there was only crappy internet. When I came back in June, I immediately wanted to play FH2 again. Somehow it was better in my memories and after some unpredictable, crazy tank-fights I somehow totally lost interest.

A lot of effort went into trying to improve the tank combat in 2.45 and if all you can say is that it "sucks balls" without any sort of recognition of the hundreds of hours of work that went into it then the best you can hope for is not getting told to fuck off.
What do you want us to say then? It was a lot of effort in vain (considering the tanking). Better tell them how things are, rather than always cheer. A lot of people don´t enjoy tank combat in 2.45. I don´t care about how much effort it was if it wrecked the gameplay, immersion, fun and whatnot.

The mod isn´t dead - as others have stated, it´s in some kind of coma. The regular FH2 members are still here after 7 years (I think that´s when BF2 came out) and had those 7 years to quit playing, yet they have not. THey had 7 years to switch to more modern games. They did not, so I´m confident after the next update we still can play for some years.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 15:08:33
Angle mod was good idea, it had its flaws in 2.4, but it worked in an acceptable way. Now in 2.45 it's totally fucked up... The easiest and quickest solution would be to realease hotfix with old files from 2.4, but nobody wants to do it, why?  ???
I also don't understand why there's random deviation with tank firing - when you aim at the same place all the time, 1st round goes in 1 place, 2nd round in another, even though you didn't make any movements... Why?  ???
Also, why you touched some vehicle movements behaviour like Kubelwagen, which was driven well before 2.45 release, now it's fucked up... Instead of this you could fix Panzer IV behavour, which still behaves like empty carton box...

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 06-08-2013, 15:08:05
You see, everyone says I have a necro for mini-mods, but they are one of the things that keep me (and plenty of others) entertained when there is nothing new for a while, and there is only FH2-Z and the tourneys, so...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 06-08-2013, 16:08:02
Angle mod was good idea, it had its flaws in 2.4, but it worked in an acceptable way. Now in 2.45 it's totally fucked up... The easiest and quickest solution would be to realease hotfix with old files from 2.4, but nobody wants to do it, why?  ???
The main problem is people talking about things they don't have a clue about. This part of your post is an example (no offence).
As far as the angle mod is concerned there's no difference between 2.4 and 2.45 (except maybe planes AFAIK, but that's not the subject you're concerned about). How would you expect one to fix an issue that doesn't exist ?

The changes were all about other parameters, and you can't just replace files. Some changes were interesting, some others not. Everything has to be reviewed, checked, rebalanced. That's not the easy cake some players imagine.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 06-08-2013, 16:08:58
The changes were all about other parameters, and you can't just replace files. Some changes were interesting, some others not. Everything has to be reviewed, checked, rebalanced. That's not the easy cake some players imagine.

Exactly. When I saw in the files how many types of projectiles and materials are in FH 2 my head exploded.

It's not easy to make something good and without bugs out of that bunch...

Personally, I can live with angle mod... Sure, it has crazy situations, and planes take way too much lead to bring down but it is an improvement over the 2.3 weird frontal insta-kills.

What FH2 really needs is a change in gameplay... More options and power for commander, easier communication (Mumble would help), better suppression. The map changes were good (except a rare few) because they brought more focus and less flag hopping.

And of course the minor quirks that never cease to annoy me... such as the restriction of camera movement for tank "commanders" (yes I realize it would probably look weird without it), the removal of duck option on some mounted MGs (like the Achilles) and similar
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 06-08-2013, 17:08:08
I wish to. I don't want to. That would be childish.
I quoted both posters of which I thought they were being childish, I just didn't quote your entire post.

Read the rest of my post, if you are interested in a serious conversation.
I always am, but when you edit posts after I said something about them and then refer to them again later, it is not gonna be a clear conversation.

Or google "humor", maybe even "irony".
Oh, ha ha, I didn't see the "humour", I'm sorry. I just saw you beating yor favourite dead horse again. And if you wish (not want) to post something sarcastic, you might know that the irony tends to get lost on internetforums. You might add some tags in the future, like this:
But you never fail to give your 2 pence to whatever I write, eh Slayer? :)
[sarcasm]No, I never fail at that, because I watch these forums every second of the day and as soon as you post something, I'm gonna reply to it. It's my life's goal.[/sarcasm]

Point is:
The mod isn't dead, and in this thread 2.4 is being overly glorified and 2.45 overly bashed. Both versions had their flaws and yes, they are being recognised. You don't have to praise everything all the time, but repeating everything which has been said over and over again in different threads is just pointless, and annoying for others to read. So, everyone who wants to continue on the tank thing, please go here: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=17920.0
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 06-08-2013, 17:08:45
time to set up the 2.4 server again
I seriously think this is a good idea.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 06-08-2013, 17:08:13
I think there is a 2.4 server already running 24/7, at least when I looked a week ago.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 18:08:11
Angle mod was good idea, it had its flaws in 2.4, but it worked in an acceptable way. Now in 2.45 it's totally fucked up... The easiest and quickest solution would be to realease hotfix with old files from 2.4, but nobody wants to do it, why?  ???
The main problem is people talking about things they don't have a clue about. This part of your post is an example (no offence).
As far as the angle mod is concerned there's no difference between 2.4 and 2.45 (except maybe planes AFAIK, but that's not the subject you're concerned about). How would you expect one to fix an issue that doesn't exist ?

The changes were all about other parameters, and you can't just replace files. Some changes were interesting, some others not. Everything has to be reviewed, checked, rebalanced. That's not the easy cake some players imagine.

What a bullshit!
Everything is coded in a fucking, simple notepad, no big problematic program... I don't know if this problem relating to angle mod system or to materials. If this thing was added after 2.4, there's only 1 way - REMOVE IT!!!!

Seriously guys, I don't know what you're doing during betatesting. I can understand glitches, floating objects on the maps, unbalanced maps (because how to test 64 players map balance with less than 20 players?), but such things like:
- angle mod bugs,
- random tank penetration
- weakness of some rounds, like 88mm
- kubelwagen behaviour
- immortal biker (actually it's not really serious problem, but looks kinda dumb)

What did you think? That we would accept it and play this with pleasure for more than a year?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Thorondor123 on 06-08-2013, 18:08:53
Shut up you ungrateful piece of shit.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 18:08:10
Shut up you ungrateful piece of shit.

Cool. It's funny that when you criticize here something, you usually are attacked by dev's ass-licking fanboys (usually Betatesters and Moderators) with response like above... ^^

Pity that theres no contact with developers on this forum. I haven't seen any explanations from dev side why the last release is so buggged and when it will be fixed...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 06-08-2013, 18:08:57
If everything is coded in a simple way with notepad, then why don't you apply for the dev team and show what you can do, Mudzin. I took a look a into the material table and I can tell you that I would not claim to call this stuff easy and I would also not claim to be able to do this stuff on my own. Fact is, that a pretty big part of the community doesn't agree with some of the stuff that was introduced with 2.45 release, mainly the tanking system and the randomness of the game. There was messed up something in 2.45 and that's the only thing that the player notices and what concerns the player. PaK bug and bike bug being one of those things that people abuse everyday or notice from the recieving end.

We got a bunch of pretty nice maps with 2.45, St. Vith being one of my favorites and some cool gamemodes and variation for different map sizes. I don't want to miss this stuff. *Someone* went a bit too far with the implementation of sector push on some maps, but well, overall Keren, St. Vith and Sidi bou are a very nice addition to the game. I like it to be able to play Americans on desert maps, and tbh Sidi Bou is a damn beautiful map, that plays really smooth for most of the matches and offers some interesting gameplay.

@Thorondor: I can understand your frustration, but your last post is certainly not the right way to go, especialy for you as a forum moderator who should have a exemplary function.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 06-08-2013, 18:08:27
Quote from: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 17:08:10
Quote
Cool. It's funny that when you criticize here something, you usually are attacked by dev's ass-licking fanboys (usually Betatesters and Moderators) with response like above... ^^

I agree with you that it isn't a nice reply, but your posts aren't very eloquent either:
Quote from: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 17:08:11
Quote
What a bullshit! Everything is coded in a fucking, simple notepad, no big problematic program...



Also, this is turning into a Catch 22 thread quite fast, so it would be nice if it could be on topic again.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 06-08-2013, 18:08:48
Dear Slayer,

the spelling of humo(u)r is subject to BE or AE. If you wish to be that exact. You will note that the core of my post went unaltered, I merely removed some of the sharpness and irony that you seem to find so hard to deal with. It is your choice, how much of a personal feud you intend to make this. Do not try to insinuate that I would change the main content of my posts - for I did not.

Back on topic:
Thorondor, there is no need for that sharpness. If Mudzin choses that tone, then let him. There is no need for you guys to justify yourselves that way.

The point why we are still here is to make the Devs see that there is interest in or encouragement for them to keep working on the mod. If we were indifferent, noone would post here. Is there a way the community may help in bringing the next release on track, then let us know.

Many players and, as I have heard, some beta testers, are wondering because the Devs have fallen silent on the subject of further development. So it is a good thing Lightning has given us some input here. Would it be not possible to incorporate player's ideas into the modding process some more? Be it by poll over main gameplay questions or some other measure of your choice.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Professor Anthrax on 06-08-2013, 18:08:44
Overall I thought 2.45 was more good than bad(except of course for my irreconcilable bug up my butt about the loss of original giarabub 16). Of course I don't tank much in game and that seems to be a lot of people's big beef with 2.45. The new maps were nice(really like St. Vith and Sidi Bou Zid). One thing I do hope is that jeeps/willy's/kubelagons get fixed for 2.5. They ride like you're driving on an iceskating rink now...they go all over the place.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 06-08-2013, 19:08:16
Shut up you ungrateful piece of shit.

Cool. It's funny that when you criticize here something, you usually are attacked by dev's ass-licking fanboys (usually Betatesters and Moderators) with response like above... ^^

Pity that theres no contact with developers on this forum. I haven't seen any explanations from dev side why the last release is so buggged and when it will be fixed...  ::)

You should consider yourself lucky that people work on this mod because they love the game. If it were only to please people with such a rude attitude, they would have given up a long time ago.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 06-08-2013, 19:08:10
Dear Slayer,
Yeah, yeah, I love you too  :-*

the spelling of humo(u)r is subject to BE or AE.
That wasn't my point at all, my point was that I simply couldn't laugh because of this what you call humour.

This shows once more that you don't understand what I write and vice versa, we have been through this before.

If you wish to be that exact. You will note that the core of my post went unaltered, I merely removed some of the sharpness and irony that you seem to find so hard to deal with.
Any editing, however small, will make the conversation unclear. And you also added something, so don't try to be the saint of saints now.

It is your choice, how much of a personal feud you intend to make this. Do not try to insinuate that I would change the main content of my posts - for I did not.
I'm not out for a personal feud, so please don't blame me for insinuating and then do it yourself.

What I would like to see, is that people read carefully, then think and then post their opinion, if possible in a nice and eloquent way. Then, if they don't see a follow up they like, they should refrain from repeating themselves over and over again, because that is annoying. And you can help me with that, I'm sure :)

Would it be not possible to incorporate player's ideas into the modding process some more?
IMO that's possible, but since the mod is made by the devs, it is up to them. And about the silence: I like to hear something too, but the timing of this thread is rather poor in that aspect, as many people are away for holidays. Like Lightning said, I guess we'll hear something when summer is over.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 19:08:02
they would have given up a long time ago.

TBH, I would have preferred it if they'd stopped at 2.40, sometimes you just need to know when to step back, leave things as they are and stop.

2.40 would have been a fitting end to FH2...as it is, they gummed up the works with unnecessary tinkering.
 


Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 06-08-2013, 19:08:52
I think the problem here is that some people think there is a "fix bugs" button somewhere that we refuse to press. It's not that simple.

For example, the angle mod. Prior to introducing this feature, heavy tanks were useless, because you could simply aim for their exposed weak top and kill them in one shot. The angle mod fixed this perfectly. However, this does mean that if you aim at the centre of an enemy tank and you hit the top of the hull in front of the turret at a low angle, you will do no damage, even though you were aiming straight at the tank. This is an unavoidable side-effect of the angle mod and while unfortunate it is not as bad as it was prior to introducing the angle mod. So this is a concious decision we made. "angle mod bugs and random penetration" is not a bug that is fixable. It might be possible to reduce such occurrences by redoing all collision meshes with the angle mod in mind, but this is hundreds of hours of work and no one is willing to do that.

The same goes for the turret rotation. Prior to introducing the rotational speed limit in 2.45, players could set their mouse sensitivity really high and move the turret of heavy tanks around in seconds, while really it should take minutes. To prevent this exploit, we added the rotational speed limit, but as an unavoidable side-effect it makes the turret slide on if you move it around too fast. This is not something we can fix without disabling the limit altogether and we made the concious decision that the mod is better with the limit.



You might not agree with these decisions, but to me, that is irrelevant. And I have to say this is my personal opinion that I'm sure many other developers don't share. But I don't think about what you might like when working on Forgotten Hope, I think about what I would like. And not all developers agree with each other on everything, in fact, it might be more accurate to say that there isn't a single thing in this universe that all developers would agree upon. So each development change is the result of hours worth of discussions, concessions and compromising. If people who don't even contribute to the development would have a say in things as well, I would not want to be the person in charge of that chaos.

And finally, there is no need to complain about your problems in every single post you make. Yes, we read the forum, yes we know. This constant whining is just very demotivating, especially if you're dumb enough to take the time to reply to it.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 06-08-2013, 19:08:37
TBH, I would have preferred it if they'd stopped at 2.40, sometimes you just need to know when to step back, leave things as they are and stop.

2.40 would have been a fitting end to FH2...as it is, they gummed up the works with unnecessary tinkering.

Well the thing is, back then it still looked like the mod had an on-going future ahead of it, thus development and plans were carried out as normal. However, things changed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: 0utlaw on 06-08-2013, 19:08:51
Well instead of posting about how the mod is dead or how the angle mod isnt working correctly, why not take time to learn how to mod and help out. Just about anything needed for modding this engine can be easily learned online for free. In my opinion, this is still by far the best, most in depth, world war II fps mod/game out there and on an outdated engine. Turn your negative energy into positive and help instead of complaining.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 06-08-2013, 19:08:17
FH 2.45 is awesome. Just throwing that out there...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 20:08:45
we made the concious decision that the mod is better with the limit.

..Err no, just no.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 06-08-2013, 20:08:58
You know what, devs? Don't fix anything!

Guys like Mudzin and Defibkiller don't deserve it! Let them rage about it around, then ban them and let them cry in the corner while the rest of us enjoy 2.45...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 06-08-2013, 20:08:53
Guys like Mudzin and Defibkiller don't deserve it! Let them rage about it around, then ban them and let them cry in the corner while the rest of us enjoy 2.45...

You can kiss their arse as much as you want, but they still won't take any more notice of you than they do of me.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: RAnDOOm on 06-08-2013, 20:08:53
In my opinion FH2 is very much alive. Every evening we can find at least one full server.

And there is at least one active Tournament play every Friday night with 50x50 battles.

But please continue to amuse us with your silly posts.

(http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/Mongol_Magpie/popcrn.gif)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 21:08:18
If I were a dev, I wouldn't release content which is simply not working! It wasn't like that the dev released his work relating to angle mod 1 day before 2.45 update, without any testing, right?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ciupita on 06-08-2013, 22:08:23
If I were a dev, I wouldn't release content which is simply not working! It wasn't like that the dev released his work relating to angle mod 1 day before 2.45 update, without any testing, right?

Angle mod was tested for like 4 months in tanking maps, two times a week.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 06-08-2013, 23:08:08
So you decided to release not working version... Great...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 06-08-2013, 23:08:44
Lighhtning just explained to you that angle mod works like intended.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 06-08-2013, 23:08:44
Not working? Tanks get destroyed as far as i know right? What is wrong is with you, you cant stand a bit of randomness in the tank battles. Is it too much for your skill to not be able to tell if you're really gonna kill a tank or not? Well tough fucking luck because thats how it was and still is in tank battles today. You cant know if you will kill a tank or not. I like the tanking system and i had no problems with it.

Troubles with the controls? I got none because i am using a gamepad. If you like tanking so much you can do the same, or use arrow keys which are available too.

Is tanking too hard for you? Stick to infantry.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: mopskind on 06-08-2013, 23:08:57
..did anybody delete my post from previous page?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 07-08-2013, 01:08:29
Yeah, because 88mm rounds bounced off Sherman's side...  ::)
And Cromwell was uber heavy tank for Allies...
And Churchill could won 1 vs 1 against tiger frontally...

And many more...

Btw Bouras, is that you're account - click (http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=350262540&ln=en) Seems like you played this game in 2011 last time. Maybe it's high time to install it again and check how it is in reality...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: EpicFoodEpic on 07-08-2013, 01:08:09
..did anybody delete my post from previous page?

Ehh.. the thread's name was also changed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 07-08-2013, 01:08:04
..did anybody delete my post from previous page?

Only three posts in the deleted threads/posts section, none of them is yours. What was your post about? Was it this:

Agreed. People tend to forget that they are enjoying the hard work of people who put in effort and time to create something for free. Constructive criticism should be and i think always was welcome, but being a bitch about everything that shatters your little special world is just not helpful for anybody

---

Ehh.. the thread's name was also changed.

Why does your IP give me two separate accounts (1 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?action=profile;u=25301),2 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?action=profile;u=25313))?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 07-08-2013, 05:08:01
Just get it straight, certain devs don't like the traditional FH tanking system and think it's overly leathal, instead they prefer the one in 2.45, that's why it's so hard to get a tweak patch, or "fix". I'm not an expert of BF2 coding but I'm sure it doesn't take a year to tweak back the damage modifier, what happened in 2.45 is intended. So it's a good idea for 762 to reopen a 2.4 server and let the player chose.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: AfterDune on 07-08-2013, 09:08:50
Meh, I'm more than happy with 2.45 to be honest. Developing a game like FH2 is a shitload of work and when fixing one bug, it's possible you create another. That's just how it is. You can complain about it, but better would be to try to help fix things, instead of just point and stare.

Back on topic, I do wonder how development is going. Not asking for a release date or anything, just wonder if the developers can shed a tiny bit of light on FH2.x
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: mopskind on 07-08-2013, 10:08:42
@Flippy nah that's not it but nevermind probably a bug then
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 07-08-2013, 11:08:22
Yeah, because 88mm rounds bounced off Sherman's side...  ::)

No but they did went straight through both sides sometimes, causing little damage.

And Cromwell was uber heavy tank for Allies...

The problem with the Cromwell is the collision mesh I think, especially those small rivets on the turret. Otherwise it works ok.

And Churchill could won 1 vs 1 against tiger frontally...

Of course, and as a matter of fact it did:

Quote
On 21 April 1943, a Tiger I of the 504th German heavy tank battalion, with turret number 131, was captured on a hill called Djebel Djaffa in Tunisia. A 6-pounder solid shot from a Churchill tank of the British 48th Royal Tank Regiment hit the Tiger's gun barrel and ricocheted into its turret ring, jamming its traverse and wounding the commander. The crew bailed out and the tank was captured.. After repairs, the tank was sent to England for a thorough inspection.

And many more...

Namely?

Btw Bouras, is that you're account - click (http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=350262540&ln=en) Seems like you played this game in 2011 last time. Maybe it's high time to install it again and check how it is in reality...  ::)

I'm sure he has several accounts, and he prefers to play official, not the "broken" 762 ranking. I can confirm he played in 2012 AND 2013 as we played in the F|H campaigns together.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 07-08-2013, 11:08:04
not the "broken" 762 ranking.

It is no more broken than the "official" one. But keep repeating that nonsense as long as you please.
The thread is about some other questions.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: E.C.Dhals on 07-08-2013, 11:08:52
I remember the first time that i try fh1, it was epic, the best ww2 game i have ever played, and i have 700-1500 hours on fh1
wean bf2 came out, i was still playing fh1, and i continued to play until fh2 came out.
fh2 was the only thing in my mind when i bought bf2.
i was very disappointed with fh2.
were is the epic maps from fh1?, Artillery is too accurate and too easy, shooting is a lottery in best bf2 style, in fh1 you hit what you aim at, were is the Atmosphere from fh1?
tanks frankly feels awkward, they are not as smooth as in fh1, it feels like sitting on your porch and drive the house around.
You cant get a big community with this game, pepole try it, and leve, because it is a bad game compared with fh1.
i love ww2 games, and i hope that forgotten hope returns to its former glory, then i will play it again.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 07-08-2013, 11:08:33
not the "broken" 762 ranking.

It is no more broken than the "official" one. But keep repeating that nonsense as long as you please.
The thread is about some other questions.

If you didn't realize I put "" in there so it wasn't meant seriously. 762 is fine, I just wish it was possible to track both of them at once because that would solve the community split, but I guess the strain on the server machine would be too great.

I apologize if you feel offended.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 07-08-2013, 11:08:13
Thank you, I have misunderstood you there.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 07-08-2013, 11:08:49
Yeah, because 88mm rounds bounced off Sherman's side...  ::)

No but they did went straight through both sides sometimes, causing little damage.

Ahaha, I laughed so hard when I read this!

And Cromwell was uber heavy tank for Allies...

The problem with the Cromwell is the collision mesh I think, especially those small rivets on the turret. Otherwise it works ok.

Yeah, sure, apart that 88mm rounds bounce off its armor, it's ok, we can play with it...  ::)

And Churchill could won 1 vs 1 against tiger frontally...

Of course, and as a matter of fact it did:

Quote
On 21 April 1943, a Tiger I of the 504th German heavy tank battalion, with turret number 131, was captured on a hill called Djebel Djaffa in Tunisia. A 6-pounder solid shot from a Churchill tank of the British 48th Royal Tank Regiment hit the Tiger's gun barrel and ricocheted into its turret ring, jamming its traverse and wounding the commander. The crew bailed out and the tank was captured.. After repairs, the tank was sent to England for a thorough inspection.

Simply lucky shot, 1 for million, rather impossible to repeat in this game...

And many more...

Namely?
Tank rounds bounce off APCs, trucks, and generally angle mod is broken completetely now, a few days ago I fired to Panzer IV frontally with my M36 and there was no penetration at all? Seems like you must have more luck than skill in this game now... 

Btw Bouras, is that you're account - click (http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=350262540&ln=en) Seems like you played this game in 2011 last time. Maybe it's high time to install it again and check how it is in reality...  ::)

I'm sure he has several accounts, and he prefers to play official, not the "broken" 762 ranking. I can confirm he played in 2012 AND 2013 as we played in the F|H campaigns together.

I don't remember any other active server since 2 years than 762... And tournaments doesn't count!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 07-08-2013, 12:08:47
Why? We play 2.45 version too.  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 07-08-2013, 13:08:55
Because tournaments are only sporadic. The wast majority of the FH2 rounds being played takes place on public servers, meaning 762.

(Where you refering to the tournament statement?)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 07-08-2013, 13:08:45
Yes!

In public servers you don't find such great tankers to test your skills...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 07-08-2013, 13:08:26
Yeah, because 88mm rounds bounced off Sherman's side...  ::)
And Cromwell was uber heavy tank for Allies...
And Churchill could won 1 vs 1 against tiger frontally...
Btw Bouras, is that you're account - click (http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=350262540&ln=en) Seems like you played this game in 2011 last time. Maybe it's high time to install it again and check how it is in reality...  ::)

Maybe the round went right through killing just crewmates? Maybe it indeed bounced, it is a round after all.
Maybe you shouldnt go face to face with a churchill then?

That is my online account for FH2 which had a fake e mail and a pasword i cannot remember/recall so is lost. Last time i played was about a month ago on the FHT tournament. I would not speak if i was not sure of things.

Also i happen to play sometimes on the Gamenights organized from FHT. Again with a random account.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-08-2013, 14:08:20
Yes!

In public servers you don't find such great tankers to test your skills...

I know that FlH has beaten us in the community war, and I have high respect for ONE of your tankers and his skill - namely slepovo. But I don't like this elite kind of thinking. I am quite sure, that there are some damn good tankers out there who are on one level with your elitist tankers.

@Bouras: How can you call yourself skilled or not skilled, when every of your engagement is based on luck and randomness? This has nothing to do with skill and that's the point that you are misunderstanding. How can I use the 2pdr on Mount Olympus and show my skill, when every shot is unpredictably spraying somewhere?

OT: a bit of randomness in tanking is good, and I think 2.4 was a version where the FH2 devs succeeded with this as different weapon systems were nicely balanced. There were a few problems with the Marder and the Cromwell, some strange situations with angle mod that we all notice from time to time and the mortar snipers were a bit OP. But overall the whole damage model worked better and the relation of the firepower of the different guns and armor values of tanks worked better.

There is no question for me that the devs intented the current system and tested it. But what I don't understand is the fact, is the tone against community member, after they give their feedback and criticism. Where is the point of changing names of theads without the request of the thread starter? People always whine about censorship and what else, but this is no tad better. We had this in the past here in this forum and the situation has still not changed.  :(

I don't like the tone of Mudzin aswell, but what do devs expect? When I change something and people play it and say that they don't like it, I have to deal with it. And to say "I don't care for it" is certainly not the right way to keep this mod alive. I know about the development situation, but please keep in mind how people will understand such a statement. Shouldn't we think about compromises then?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-08-2013, 15:08:17
Why don't you see that devs, moderators and betas are tired of this bullshit? After a year I have enough of listening that we haven't test something or we are too stupid or blind that we haven't seen this or that. And I'm only a beta tester, so what do devs feel about their work after seeing all those posts? Not every patch must be perfect. Everyone wanted 2.45 to be better than previous one but something went wrong and it isn't easy to fix some bugs or design mistakes. Keep repeating your points is just fucking annoying, especially because we get your points after the first reports. Many bugs have been fixed since last release but probably there is no enough active devs to finish the next patch. They have their RL problems, vacations, anything. I don't see a reason for devs to come back to active modding when I see a bunch of ungreatful fucks like Mudzin who not only criticise a lot of good work but think that they are better and smarter that everyone else here. Not to mention that some of them also want to make their own rules on this forum. IMO all those whiners already killed this mod and it's just a matter of time for FH2 to bleed out. I believe that no one want to work just to see negative response on their entire work because of few broken things in the mod. You want go back to 2.4? Seriously? Go fuck yourselfs instead.


Just my two cents, don't bother to response I don't even mind if I will get banned for this post, this game is almost dead anyway.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 07-08-2013, 16:08:49
You want go back to 2.4? Seriously?

Yep.

Go fuck yourselfs instead.

(http://i.picpar.com/xro.jpg)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 07-08-2013, 17:08:17
So Jan tell me what 2.45 update brought relevant comparing to 2.4, relating to gameplay aspect only?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 07-08-2013, 17:08:08
So Jan tell me what 2.45 update brought relevant comparing to 2.4

Broken tank combat...now be quiet and show your gratitude ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-08-2013, 17:08:43
Jan, there was a point when the FH2 developers got alot of praise for their professionalism and high standards and they rightfuly deserved that and there are alot of points where they are still damn professional. Just take a look at the current state of the beta and the last news. It looks just damn good.

Now after 2.45 things have changed, but not to the good. People keep critizising the current situation until it changes, that's the nature of it. That's how you have to deal with problems in your RL and in your daily bussiness aswell. Or do you say to your boss, that he should go fuck himself, after he critizises you? When you spend some time on the server you will see that people are really interested in this project and ask what is going on. This mod is far, far away from being dead. Otherwise we would not have such active discussions and allmost 24/7 a good populated server.

If devs, moderators, beta testers (you Jan aswell as me) aswell as the players want to see FH2 going strong in the future, then insulting the players and the supporting community is certainly not professional or the way to reach this goal, but in the same way it is not the right way to insult the developers and testers. Besides this do I have the opinion, that this should be a quite openminded community that is open for praise aswell as for critics and free discussions, so why don't we stop the bitching and bury our hostile attitudes? Is my question too offensive to deal with it so that you have to tell me that I should go fuck myself?

The same question goes do Mudzin and Defibkiller aswell btw.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 07-08-2013, 17:08:26
So Jan tell me what 2.45 update brought relevant comparing to 2.4

Broken tank combat...now be quiet and show your gratitude ;)
I'm sorry, but you guys really make the impression like you want to be seen as whiners. Everything which is posted by a dev/admin/betatester is not good enough for you guys. And when someone else posts something along the lines of a dev/admin/tester (and therefore disagreeing with you guys), he is an "ass licker". Really mature.  ::)

And in the meantime, this is all off-topic. So, like I suggested before:
Quote
Also, this is turning into a Catch 22 thread quite fast, so it would be nice if it could be on topic again.

Agreed with 5hitm4k3r on the hostilities, it brings us nowhere.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 07-08-2013, 19:08:19
Wow, this thread is quite depressing, I mean seriously, I wasn't happy with everything 2.45 brought (yes, tank combat blah blah blah) but some people here are acting as if it completely destroyed the game, and the responses are just fucking rude. Dev's don't owe you anything, you don't pay them, stop acting as if your were their bosses or something. Go play some other game or wait for the next patch.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 07-08-2013, 19:08:08
Answering the question that the thread title asks: Yes, there is some. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: pizzzaman on 07-08-2013, 21:08:40
This thread has lost it's purpose, moderators/admins/devs delete it out of existence, leave no traces behind.

Shall no one speak about this thread ever again.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Wilhelm on 07-08-2013, 23:08:18
The angle mod works as intended.  The only problem with it is that many of the vehicle meshes are not totally optimized for it since they were created long before its implementation (the cromwell being an aforementioned example). Even with a mesh being fully optimized with the angle mod taken into account, there would still be the odd bug.

Also, in response to those that accuse the testing team or developers of not being aware of certain issues or bugs: the team is aware of many of them even before the release of a patch, but you have to set priorities and deadlines in order to get anything completed.  If the developers stopped to fix every single issue then we would never be able to release anything in a "timely" manner.  Sometimes you have to just say "good enough" until you can find the time to deal with an issue.

You also have to take into account that development of the mod and activity of each individual dev is sporadic, so not all issues can be dealt with at certain times.

The factors that dictate what gets done are usually one of the following:

1. Time
In the case of the angle mod; going through and fixing all the vehicle meshes is a very time consuming process and one that you sometimes have to set aside in order to progress in another area of development.

2. Availability
Each developer has experienced their own period of inactivity or limited availability.  Sometimes this can seriously slow down progress in development due to a dev being critical in a specific area (coding, modelling, mapping, etc).

3. Iterations and Experimentation
There has always been a lot of trial and error behind the scenes with the mechanics of the mod.  Systems like the angle mod, damage factors, vehicle physics and coding, etc are so complicated because of the many variables and assets that are affected by sometimes the smallest change. As someone mentioned before, sometimes fixing or resolving one bug can create yet another problem.

I personally found the angle mod and related changes to be a good thing, but it does definitely have some serious issues.  However, I don't believe anyone on the team expected to not be able to resolve those issues in the future...it just so happened that for the last several months or more development has slowed to a crawl for one reason or another.  What I can tell you is that there is A TON of content that has yet to be released, so I hope that development picks up again so everyone can enjoy it all!

As a final note: What I mentioned in this post is from my personal perspective and might not be 100% accurate in terms of the technical stuff.  I also have not been active playing the game for a while now (though I was active post-2.45).



Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-08-2013, 02:08:28
 Wow you guys bitch and complain more than a group of women at a PMS meeting...

 

I think its about time for ole' Jimi to head on down the road and find another game & community to be apart of....

 Its been fun, rude, egotistical, arrogant, very biased & finally patronizing. Ill stop by from time to time, but it will be very sporadic.




I want to say one more last thing
I didn't mean to take up all your sweet time
I'll give it right back to ya one of these days

Hahaha



Later......JH
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 08-08-2013, 02:08:34
You can't be serious... you're leaving because of this?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 08-08-2013, 03:08:04
Dont go, it is fun playing FH2 with you!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-08-2013, 03:08:09
Oh no, one of the drama queens is leaving because of overwhelming emotional pressure. At the end you will show up like everyday because you are addicted to it  ;D

To be serious, Wilhelm made a quite good post and that's how I see it too. The last active step in developement is from a week ago or something like that. I feel that there is still some (forgotten) hope ...

@Pizzaman: deleting this thread will lead to nothing. It is just a part of this community.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Butcher on 08-08-2013, 13:08:37
Wasn´t the range modifier what fucked things up? On short distances problems don´t occur very often, however beyond 100m or so is where the randomness starts.

I know that the modifier and angle mod work as intended, but did you really prefer the randomness and unkillable medium tanks on every map to the occasional top armor kill on Tigers? Imo you chose the bigger of two evils.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 08-08-2013, 16:08:33
Well it doesn't really matter. If you remove angle mod people will start "heavier tanks are bullshit bla bla bla."

When they can't kill a Sherman with Tiger they will start bitching about "this is ridiculous this is a Sherman not a KT bla bla bla. "

You can't please everyone and I say with minor fixes to the angle mod this could become playable. For example we made a little fix for Cromwell in our tournament that turned out to be perfect.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 08-08-2013, 17:08:27
Just play the game and don't look at the forums, it's the best way to avoid being disheartened by this community.

It's no wonder why devs barely ever post on here, all they see is their work getting shit on by people who have no idea of the complexity of making a mod, let alone making a mod bug-free. A good deal of you need to a) stop being so entitled and realise that the devs that are left do this in their free time, b) realise that it's pretty likely that there are so little devs left because of this comparatively unsupportive community and  c) realise that the best way to change something is to change it yourself i.e. start learning the bf2 editor and help the developers out. But I digress because I feel that the damage has been done and it may or may not only be downhill from here. However, what has been achieved so far with this mod, the quality at very least, speaks for itself and I still look forward to at least another release.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jupp-FH1/2 on 08-08-2013, 19:08:31
I thought the original intent was to make a game that was as close as possible to reality. In FH1 you could bounce shells off Heavy tanks all day long and a Tiger could take out a Sherman at any angle almost as far as the eyes could see.

The quality of the models, textures, mapping can't be questioned. However, they may have over-engineered the game mechanics a bit. If someone doesn't know that you can't charge into a Tiger with a Sherman and live, it's not our fault.

The only real gripe I have is the way vehicles handle, something has to be done to correct the sluggish response to commands. The turret rotation thing also need a fix. It has totally broken gameplay with tanks. It's sad to see all tank combat suffer because some players might be able to acquire targets quickly by upping sensitivity.

Some sort of indication that these issues will be remedied at some point would ease the nerves quite a bit.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 08-08-2013, 21:08:17
If someone doesn't know that you can't charge into a Tiger with a Sherman and live, it's not our fault.

I'm sorry but now you're acting like this sentence doesn't hold in the game anymore....

98 % of the time when you charge a Tiger with a Sherman (75 mm - percentage is a bit less for 76, which is ok, as it does have a better gun) you'll end up dead. Sure, you might bounce the first shot (through some divine intervention, as I wouldn't call ending up in the red part of the damage-bar a bounce), but the second one will surely kill you.

People are acting up like they should be untouchable in the Tiger/whatever but we all know, even in FH 1 a Firefly would kill a Tiger - first shot! If anything the Tiger has a bigger advantage now as it there's a chance to survive the Firefly's ambush and return fire...

Although I have an idea (an old one). And that's bringing the critical damage bleed back (afaik it was in vBF2 and we already discussed it). That could solve the whining of Axis biased people of "unkillable Shermans" (although they are very killable, just not always with 1 shot, which is an instant blasphemy in the eyes of any Axis fanboy).

With the critical damage bleed a Sherman that is hit could still return fire, but if timed right he would burn up before he could do it effectively. The same goes for other tanks.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 08-08-2013, 22:08:21
Tanks should be 1s1k (if it penetrates), regardless of who is shooting who. Like it always was (with small exceptions) before 2.45
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Stubbfan on 08-08-2013, 22:08:10
I'm sure there's a tank thread where you can tank specific things in.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jupp-FH1/2 on 09-08-2013, 15:08:12
(although they are very killable, just not always with 1 shot, which is an instant blasphemy in the eyes of any Axis fanboy).

I guess asking for tank combat to be close to reality makes me an axis fanboy. That's where this mod went wrong, tweaking tank combat so CoD kids could charge into combat and not cry when they got smoked with one shot.

The firefly should also be able to kill the Tiger with one shot. Like in FH1 the Firefly is the tank killer and needs to be protected from inf and smaller tanks by the allied team so he can go about killing heavies. Which is pretty much how things were in WW2.

This is straight off of wiki :  "It soon became highly valued as the only British tank capable of defeating the Panther and Tiger tanks it faced in Normandy at standard combat ranges. In recognition of this, German tank and anti-tank gun crews were instructed to attack Fireflies first."

The mod has been so heavily influenced by some Carebear let's make it easy for everyone so no one hates our mod attitude, that it's created a broken tanking system that is just plain boring and equally frustrating.

If you want to know how tanks should behave, go play FH1. Those devs weren't constantly trying to please a playerbase with no knowledge of WW2 tanks tactics.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 09-08-2013, 15:08:20
[...] Carebear let's make it easy for everyone so no one hates our mod attitude, that it's created a broken tanking system that is just plain boring and equally frustrating.

If you want to know how tanks should behave, go play FH1.[...]

I could not have put it much better. The tanking system as it played, handled and felt in FH0.7 and FH2.4 created lots of the Forgotten Hope fascination that kept players with a taste for realism (Non-BF3/COD fans) coming back. It made FH2 a real alternative to off-the-shelf or 08/15-games that are on the market today.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 09-08-2013, 18:08:50
Yeah that's true, standard Sherman needs 2 shots from side to take out a Tiger from side in this version, and Tiger also needs 2 shots (sometimes more) to take this funny Sherman...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 09-08-2013, 19:08:17
Shit's all been fixed in next patch. Motherfucking tiger come play out of the woods Shermans going to break down in nuts and bolts without one shot fired.
Yáll happy now.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 09-08-2013, 19:08:20
After a few rounds on the pub server I realized the game doesn't need fixing at all. The community on the other hand, does. Teamwork non existing, people TKing in main, asset hoarders, people derping around in Citroens, and of course the endless stream of whiners that are constantly typing "they should fix this, they should fix that".

I guess I still have F|H, and it's good that I do.

Over and out.

EDIT: Also, this is my post #2000 and that has to mean something :P
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 09-08-2013, 19:08:48
Come on LuckyOne,

not so black and white please. If they tk for fun, type !admins and let us know.

If 20 people wait for 1 tank, that is their own loss. Derping around in Citroens, well I guess that is what they built it into FH2 for. Personally I love the signal horn and cross country performance before the flame out :P. Whining, well that must be the Germans on the server, we are grumpy in general. ;)

Other than that, join a squad of which you can see the SL is no newbie (at least a First Sgt., that is what the ranking is there for), you will feel the difference. Join the Teamspeak and say hello.

I know it is not a tournament, but that is what we do have F|H and WaW for. Public is for the quick fix in the evenings, so it's normal the tactical discipline is not that high.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-08-2013, 20:08:09
After a few rounds on the pub server I realized the game doesn't need fixing at all.

Are you drunk? There is a reason why we lost so many longtimers with the last patch and there is certainly a reason why developers are still fixing and improving things. I want FH2 to be a nice game experience with a strong playerbase for a few more years to come and I am damn sure that most of the devs share this feeling. So 2.45 as it stands now, is certainly not the right way to go. FH2's strength of the past was it's historical accuracy and the game that we currently play is not like that. You can drive a Sherman quite careless into PAK positions and that's not historical accurate. It needs fixing and I think alot of people agree on this point.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 09-08-2013, 21:08:26
Are you drunk?
No, he simply has a different opinion.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 00:08:34
So people going godmode on bikes is the way to go and will be still available in the next version of FH2? Sometimes thinking before writing helps alot. And maybe you should check what got fixed in the current beta. This has nothing to do with opinion or not, it is mandatory for proper gameplay ::)

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 10-08-2013, 00:08:59
How can I check what was changed in the current beta? When testing is closed for the veteran gamers and community doesn't know what's the status....  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 10-08-2013, 01:08:04
So people going godmode on bikes is the way to go and will be still available in the next version of FH2?

I should hope so, it always makes for a good laugh.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 01:08:13
How can I check what was changed in the current beta? When testing is closed for the veteran gamers and community doesn't know what's the status....  ::)

Just apply as a tester and see what happens. But I guess you will have to change your tone a bit.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 10-08-2013, 01:08:24
So people going godmode on bikes is the way to go and will be still available in the next version of FH2?
No, of course not, who says that?
Sometimes thinking before writing helps alot.
Same goes for you: you really go overboard sometimes when someone hasn't got the same opinion as you have. And you said hoistilities would get us nowhere, but ou are also somewhat hostile to people with a different opinion. What you think is uber important, might be only a minor nuisance to someone else.

About my thinking before writing: I don't even state my opinion here, but for the record, it is not far from yours. It is just that you overreact to people who don't think like you and you should be careful with that. That's why I emphasized he was only giving his opinion instead of "being drunk".

And what got fixed and all: I know that, but still, nothing is "mandatory". By stating stuff like that you come across like you want to enforce your opinion on others. Not the way to go, imo.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Alakazou on 10-08-2013, 02:08:31
How can I check what was changed in the current beta? When testing is closed for the veteran gamers and community doesn't know what's the status....  ::)

Just apply as a tester and see what happens. But I guess you will have to change your tone a bit.

I personally hope he will never be one of us. Seriously, he's annoying as hell with his disrespectful tone...
Anyway, it's doesn't work like that. So...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 02:08:37
Slayer, where am I overreacting? Lucky stated that the game doesn't need fixing at all. Do you want to tell me that encouraging people to go god mode on bikes is something that is not worth of being fixed? If the game doesn't get fixed at all, as Lucky stated, people will allways abuse this. Ofcourse it leads to some funny moments, but at the end such stuff doesn't belong into any game, because it is nothing different than a cheat. Yeah, maybe that "Are you drunk?" was too hard to handle, but my point still stands and shouldn't be that difficult to understand, especialy when you as a beta tester take a look at the current state of the game and what got fixed.

This has nothing to do with different opinions, but logic and consequences and it was not my intention to be offensive. Sorry if it sounded like that.  ;)

@Alakazou: as much as I understand your point and share your opinion about this special case, I see it as a big advantage if the community would get involved a bit more. If you communicate with people you can educate each other and then at the end the harsh tone might fade away. Atm it feels splitted a bit like elite people and the rest of the community. But that's only my personal impression.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Alakazou on 10-08-2013, 03:08:26
I'm not against community involvement, but those like mudzin, I can't feel them. The dev owe nothing to the community and the community should be greatful for what the Fh2 team did. It was what I was meant to say.

What the community should remember is to behave with respect.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 10-08-2013, 05:08:28
Do you want to tell me that encouraging people to go god mode on bikes is something that is not worth of being fixed?
I like "god mode" on bikes, if its removed, i'll never use them again, they'll just become a death trap and may as well be removed at that point.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 10-08-2013, 06:08:49
Do you want to tell me that encouraging people to go god mode on bikes is something that is not worth of being fixed?
I like "god mode" on bikes, if its removed, i'll never use them again, they'll just become a death trap and may as well be removed at that point.
Yeah, I agree with that. It might even be difficult to fix as well, needing to redo the way bikes work.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 10-08-2013, 11:08:32
How can I check what was changed in the current beta? When testing is closed for the veteran gamers and community doesn't know what's the status....  ::)

Just apply as a tester and see what happens. But I guess you will have to change your tone a bit.

No, I don't want to become a beta-tester. I just want to get more information (I bet community too), on what devs are working currently, what bugs were fixed, what changes relating to gameplay are planned, etc. If devs want to hold the information about maps, just to surprise us in the end, fine, I can accept this, but other things should be open for the community. If you gave such information, people would see that this mod isn't dead and such threads like this would never appear...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 10-08-2013, 12:08:09
No, I don't want to become a beta-tester. I just want to get more information (I bet community too), on what devs are working currently, what bugs were fixed, what changes relating to gameplay are planned, etc. If devs want to hold the information about maps, just to surprise us in the end, fine, I can accept this, but other things should be open for the community. If you gave such information, people would see that this mod isn't dead and such threads like this would never appear...  ::)

The thing is, they tried give us some insight with the devblogs, but as manpower is short they don't really have time to write devblogs all day if they want to get things done. I'd rather have them working on stuff and me not knowing about it than spending their hours writing blogs for our amusement.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 12:08:37
Do you want to tell me that encouraging people to go god mode on bikes is something that is not worth of being fixed?
I like "god mode" on bikes, if its removed, i'll never use them again, they'll just become a death trap and may as well be removed at that point.
Yeah, I agree with that. It might even be difficult to fix as well, needing to redo the way bikes work.

I understand that you guys like going godmode, because it is a cheat  ::)
Both of you simply don't get the point at all. We had bikes as a nice gimmick before 2.45 aswell - working good and people used it for shits and gigles. So did they got removed? - I don't think so. Is it impossible to fix? - No. So what's next? Tankers going godmode? Pilots going godmode? You both simply miss the whole problem.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 10-08-2013, 12:08:55
No, I don't want to become a beta-tester. I just want to get more information (I bet community too), on what devs are working currently, what bugs were fixed, what changes relating to gameplay are planned, etc. If devs want to hold the information about maps, just to surprise us in the end, fine, I can accept this, but other things should be open for the community. If you gave such information, people would see that this mod isn't dead and such threads like this would never appear...  ::)
Development progress of FH2 was always an internal thing and few guys crying that they don't know current beta status won't change the rules. Become a beta tester if you want to help and see how the newest beta version looks like, that's how it works. If don't want to be helpful in any way, you won't get any information as long as some developer will decide to leak any info for such ungreatful punk like you.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 10-08-2013, 13:08:32
Development progress of FH2 was always an internal thing and few guys crying that they don't know current beta status won't change the rules. Become a beta tester if you want to help and see how the newest beta version looks like, that's how it works. If don't want to be helpful in any way, you won't get any information as long as some developer will decide to leak any info for such ungreatful punk like you.

Seriously, who'd want to be part of a little club/clique that has arrogant idiots like you as a member.

At the end of the day, your going to be the ones left with a Mod that has no players....clever. ::)



Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 10-08-2013, 13:08:12
Slayer, where am I overreacting?
When Lucky says he has played some rounds and had a good time, he says the game doesn't need fixing in his opinion. Then you assume that he endorses cheating. That is overreacting, imo.

What is a big issue to you, might be only a minor nuisance, or even totally unimportant to others.

Yeah, maybe that "Are you drunk?" was too hard to handle, but my point still stands and shouldn't be that difficult to understand, especialy when you as a beta tester take a look at the current state of the game and what got fixed.
Like I said, I agree with a lot of what you say about the mod, but sometimes it seems like you want everyone to think exactly like you, and all others are "not understanding".

This has nothing to do with different opinions, but logic and consequences and it was not my intention to be offensive. Sorry if it sounded like that.  ;)
I still think that how stuff should be handled in FH2 is everyone's personal opinion, but I appreciate it that it isn't your intention to be offensive. :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 10-08-2013, 13:08:24
Please someone delete or lock  this thread. It creates nothing more than hostility between the officials and the players.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Butcher on 10-08-2013, 13:08:01
Better having some rant in this thread than having this discussion invading every other topic.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 10-08-2013, 18:08:28
No, I don't want to become a beta-tester. I just want to get more information (I bet community too), on what devs are working currently, what bugs were fixed, what changes relating to gameplay are planned, etc. If devs want to hold the information about maps, just to surprise us in the end, fine, I can accept this, but other things should be open for the community. If you gave such information, people would see that this mod isn't dead and such threads like this would never appear...  ::)
Development progress of FH2 was always an internal thing and few guys crying that they don't know current beta status won't change the rules. Become a beta tester if you want to help and see how the newest beta version looks like, that's how it works. If don't want to be helpful in any way, you won't get any information as long as some developer will decide to leak any info for such ungreatful punk like you.

If you call whole community by "few guys"... No comment...

Sarcastic mode on:
"Ah last version was the best version of this mod at all! Now I can take Cromwell and even Tiger is not big problem for me - his rounds bounce of my armor and I can shoot him by only 2 rounds from side! I'm Allied tanking fanboy, so I'm glad that Sherman can stand multiple shots from 88mm guns! Also Panzerfaust can't do anything to my armor - that's awesome! Or I like becoming godmode by simply taking Halftrack or Truck and all 88 mm rounds will bounce off me or I can ride a bike and cap flags alone and look only how poor guys chasing me from flag to flag, great!"

Am I now "grateful"?

Sarcastic mode off
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 10-08-2013, 19:08:41
If you call whole community by "few guys"... No comment...
It's not the whole community  ::)  It is more than a few guys, I agree, but it is not the whole community.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 10-08-2013, 19:08:39
I've never had a 88mm or seen a 88mm AP shell bounce off a Sherman or a truck. Forgive me but I just need to check, are you sure you play this game? This one, Forgotten Hope 2 version 2.45?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 10-08-2013, 19:08:56
Are you sure you play 2.45?
There were times when i needed 3 hits with a Tiger in the back of a Sherman. More than 1 time. Yes, he is playing 2.45.
But btw. i have never seen you on any server. Do you use another nick in game?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 10-08-2013, 20:08:26
I've never had a 88mm or seen a 88mm AP shell bounce off a Sherman or a truck. Forgive me but I just need to check, are you sure you play this game? This one, Forgotten Hope 2 version 2.45?

Yeah I've also never had a problem like that when spending a nice night with Christina Aguilera at the club.
Oh... wait...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 10-08-2013, 20:08:57
Maybe trying to communicate without sarcasm would help a bit, after all it is possible that not everyone has had the same experience during the game.

So wondering whether other people are playing the same game is a bit of a dead end, don't you all think?

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 10-08-2013, 20:08:37
The question that stands is whether Korsakov can tell of the frequency that bugs occur with when he does not play public that much.

http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=239960543&ln=en

That makes his opinion in the matter less significant, because with more time spent in a game the probability of errors being seen rises.

He also speaks of "half assed admins" at [762] whereas it is highly doubtful that he has ever taken the time to read any of our forums or contact any of our admins directly about a problem he had on our servers.

So out of my experience with him I dare to not take his quick responses to factual matters very serious.

There Slayer, one post completely free of sarcasm, just for you.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 10-08-2013, 21:08:22
Do the things I've said only once and many months ago still bother you after all this time? That's good to know, and quite hilarious! Fact is, I play every other week, just not on 762, as I have been doing ever since 2.45 came out.
There were times when i needed 3 hits with a Tiger in the back of a Sherman. More than 1 time. Yes, he is playing 2.45.
I'm willing to bet that this is on 762's end since the people who notice it the most here seem to frequent that place. It just adds to the many reasons that I stay away from there.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 10-08-2013, 21:08:19

I understand that you guys like going godmode, because it is a cheat  ::)
Both of you simply don't get the point at all. We had bikes as a nice gimmick before 2.45 aswell - working good and people used it for shits and gigles. So did they got removed? - I don't think so. Is it impossible to fix? - No. So what's next? Tankers going godmode? Pilots going godmode? You both simply miss the whole problem.
There is no problem, a rifle grenade or lots of mg fire will quickly destroy it.  Your not invincible and there are hundreds of "cheats"....its a game.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: DaWorg! on 10-08-2013, 21:08:32
Shit's all been fixed in next patch. Motherfucking tiger come play out of the woods Shermans going to break down in nuts and bolts without one shot fired.
Yáll happy now.

Yes! I am happy now
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 10-08-2013, 21:08:20
[...]
I'm willing to bet that this is on 762's end since the people who notice it the most here seem to frequent that place. It just adds to the many reasons that I stay away from there.

Yes, Korsakov, it is all [762]. Blame them. It must be them. Problem solved, we can close the thread.

Fact check: We do not mod the game server sided. Oh sorry, yes we did. We fixed the objective mode on our servers. Sorry.

So much opinion and attitude yet so little knowledge. There is a reason I do not take you serious.


Edit:
@Chad: My question is whether it stops at the bicycle. Isn't it the same problem that prevents players with rifles from shooting gunners standing on the Sherman's turret MG although the shot should be a clear hit? Because then it would affect more than the bike.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 10-08-2013, 21:08:30
I guess asking for tank combat to be close to reality makes me an axis fanboy. That's where this mod went wrong, tweaking tank combat so CoD kids could charge into combat and not cry when they got smoked with one shot.

Can't agree more. That's exactly the frank version of: "We want the tank combat to last longer so there's more fun".

For the third time in this thread: bring back the 2.4 server!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Horstpetersens on 10-08-2013, 21:08:40
I've never had a 88mm or seen a 88mm AP shell bounce off a Sherman or a truck. Forgive me but I just need to check, are you sure you play this game? This one, Forgotten Hope 2 version 2.45?
yes i am, but with 60h on the clock u cant know that
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 22:08:10

I understand that you guys like going godmode, because it is a cheat  ::)
Both of you simply don't get the point at all. We had bikes as a nice gimmick before 2.45 aswell - working good and people used it for shits and gigles. So did they got removed? - I don't think so. Is it impossible to fix? - No. So what's next? Tankers going godmode? Pilots going godmode? You both simply miss the whole problem.
There is no problem, a rifle grenade or lots of mg fire will quickly destroy it.  Your not invincible and there are hundreds of "cheats"....its a game.

So you wanna tell me that it is more common to ride on a bike into a war zone and that enemies will first try to destroy the bike with their MG's and explosives instead of taking out the biker himself? Don't you see how comic like and joke like this "feature" makes the game look like? Every new player will just join the server, see how bugged it is, laugh his ass off about such stuff and move on to something else. That's the whole problem of this and it seems, that it is quite difficult to understand for you. It is your opinion, and I respect it, but your arguments are not that hard to counter. "You are not invincible" - are you trolling me? Ofcourse you as a player are invincible and there comes the whole problem. Driving a bike in FH2 is like driving a tank - you can only take it out with explosives or MG's. But you never ever will take out the biker himself - it is always the bike. Still too hard to understand?

But I understand that people love it to engage with the infamous Panzerkampfwagen 666, codename "Esel", that was well known to allied tankers and feared for it's strong armor, and gave it's passengers the power to get invincible to MG fire and bullets. It might be a sectret Nazi weapon - maybe something for a new Alpenfestung map ;D

(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h223/bbum_photos/PanzerfaustDonkey.jpg)

There are "hundred of cheats" - may I ask you to show me some of those "hundreds of cheats"? Are you using one? I don't. I don't know about you. Should we encourage people to use cheats? Still too hard to understand? This is also a question for Slayer btw.

@Korsakov: yes, we modified the tank system on our server, just to be able to point out problems about the tank system over and over again right here in this forum and to be able to annoy the players on our server and ourself and make them move on to other servers or games. How can you expect people to take you serious when you assume such stuff. Some people can't just follow simple logic ...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Wilhelm on 10-08-2013, 22:08:04
Players being invulnerable on the bike is a known issue and a bug, it was never a feature.  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 22:08:12
Thatswhy the "" tags.  ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 10-08-2013, 22:08:57
@Korsakov: yes, we modified the tank system on our server, just to be able to point out problems about the tank system over and over again right here in this forum and to be able to annoy the players on our server and ourself and make them move on to other servers or games. How can you expect people to take you serious when you assume such stuff. Some people can't just follow simple logic ...

So put it back the way it was then, if anything it's been made worse. Why the hell would you keep it like that just to deliberately annoy people?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 10-08-2013, 23:08:08
So put it back the way it was then, if anything it's been made worse. Why the hell would you keep it like that just to deliberately annoy people?

With people like you, I do not wonder any more how George W. Bush got reelected for a 2nd term.

(http://www.allmystery.de/i/tb9d84a_double_facepalm.png?bc)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-08-2013, 23:08:11
@Korsakov: yes, we modified the tank system on our server, just to be able to point out problems about the tank system over and over again right here in this forum and to be able to annoy the players on our server and ourself and make them move on to other servers or games. How can you expect people to take you serious when you assume such stuff. Some people can't just follow simple logic ...

So put it back the way it was then, if anything it's been made worse. Why the hell would you keep it like that just to deliberately annoy people?

Don't know whether it is a language barrier or not ...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 10-08-2013, 23:08:20
Don´t know wether to laugh or cry.

Now i know, why we shouldn´t use irony and sarcasm.

Korsakov?
Where else should i collect all my experiences? One time per week with 15 players on WAW? How many encounters with tanks do you have there?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 11-08-2013, 11:08:08
The question that stands is whether Korsakov can tell of the frequency that bugs occur with when he does not play public that much.

http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=239960543&ln=en

That makes his opinion in the matter less significant, because with more time spent in a game the probability of errors being seen rises.
Understandable, I already thought it would be something along the line of "player A has 4 times the hours of FH2 than player B, therefore player B has never seen 88mm bounce off", which is quite logical.

There Slayer, one post completely free of sarcasm, just for you.
Thank you, it cleared up a lot :)

Now i know, why we shouldn´t use irony and sarcasm.
Point on sarcasm proven, I guess.

This is also a question for Slayer btw.
Again, it seems like you want everyone to think exactly like you, and all others are "not understanding", but OK, I'll bite: what exactly is the question? You pose several, so which one is also for me?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 11-08-2013, 12:08:23
The question that stands is whether Korsakov can tell of the frequency that bugs occur with when he does not play public that much.

http://www.762-ranking.de/fh2stats/?page=playerstats&pid=239960543&ln=en

That makes his opinion in the matter less significant, because with more time spent in a game the probability of errors being seen rises.
Understandable, I already thought it would be something along the line of "player A has 4 times the hours of FH2 than player B, therefore player B has never seen 88mm bounce off", which is quite logical.

4 times!? More like 40 times...  ::)

And seriously, if he didn't see an 88 mm bounce off in 60 hours it means that the problem is neither that significant (to an average FH 2 player) nor occuring with the frequency you are trying to make us believe.

Like I said, 90 % of the time it doesn't happen, and when it does in 50 % of the cases it can be attributed to other factors (lag, connection, crappy bf2 hit detection). Now if that 5 % of the cases bother you so much, you have much more serious problems than this.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 11-08-2013, 12:08:42
Yesterday, I jumped on the server, took Crowmell and first frontall shot (90 degree) from Tiger bounced off my turret...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 11-08-2013, 12:08:15
Like I said, 90 % of the time it doesn't happen, and when it does in 50 % of the cases it can be attributed to other factors (lag, connection, crappy bf2 hit detection). Now if that 5 % of the cases bother you so much, you have much more serious problems than this.

You will not see me argument with percentage values, unless I have tested it.
So where do you take these "90% not happening" from? Have you tested anything? Have you fired 100 shots and only seen it bounce off in 10? I hardly believe that.

It is more frequent, that those unlogic effects occur. Take the time, try it out and then give me the percentage if you like, I'll be happy to discuss that. But don't throw around arbitrary percentages, please. That is not helpful.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 11-08-2013, 12:08:34
^ Alright, I'll do some testing today and get back with some less arbitrary numbers. But we all know that the issue is often bf2 engine and crappy network code, which can be very hard to reproduce on local or an empty server.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 11-08-2013, 12:08:36
I played hundreds and thousands of hours with patch 2.25-2.4 on the same server without any of the mentioned problems.
How do you explain this? Server stays the same and no problems including all the patches before. And now with 2.45 the server inflicts the problems? Seriously?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 11-08-2013, 13:08:47
We do have 1 test server runnning. You can ofc stop by on our TS and then we can have some tryouts, if you like.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 11-08-2013, 13:08:08
I played hundreds and thousands of hours with patch 2.25-2.4 on the same server without any of the mentioned problems.
How do you explain this? Server stays the same and no problems including all the patches before. And now with 2.45 the server inflicts the problems? Seriously?

Yes but since 2.25 things have changed dramatically. Sometimes changing one variable can have tremendous impact.

We do have 1 test server runnning. You can ofc stop by on our TS and then we can have some tryouts, if you like.

That would be nice, yes. But first we need some agreement on the terminology (as I feel this could be the root of our disagreements). For example the term "bounce". What does it mean to you?

I would consider a shot being bounced off if:
 a) The shot didn't inflict any damage
or
 b) The shot inflicted damage that is insignificant  considering the health of the vehicle (maybe up to 1/3rd of the bar)

So when Mudzin for example says "my Cromwell bounced off a Tiger shot". Does that mean that the Tiger failed to damage him at all? Because if it did that is a serious problem. And if it didn't then on what range it happened? For as I can tell there might be nothing wrong with the tank system if we look at it from the devs point of view.

Of course, if we look at from the player's point of view, many of whom still have fresh memories of killing everything at any range frontally, then it's broken, as that is not possible to do anymore.

EDIT: some quick local testing reveals that the most bothersome part of the tanking system changed in 2.45 might be the damage over distance modifier, combined with the increased deviation of the shots.

On Totalize, Tiger vs Cromwell, frontally:

Range Angle  Shots  1-hit-kills  critical(red)  damage  no penetration
200 m  90  5  4  1  -  -
350 m  90  5  1  3  1  -

Of course these results are on a small sample and with no confirmation on where the shots actually landed, as that is very hard to do alone on a local server. I might do some testing with Odium in the afternoon so we'll post more relevant results.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 11-08-2013, 13:08:11
Obviously the problem isn't on 762s end, that isn't even possible.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 11-08-2013, 14:08:44
Again, it seems like you want everyone to think exactly like you, and all others are "not understanding", but OK, I'll bite: what exactly is the question? You pose several, so which one is also for me?

I don't want to to make everyone think like me. If I see strong arguments, I can change my mind aswell - but as you see, Korsakov and Chad fail quite hard to base their opinion on strong arguments and Korsakov even applied as the FH2 forum poster of the year.

Both want to have the invincible biker ingame, wich is a cheat so my question to them and you was:
Should we encourage people to use cheats?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 11-08-2013, 14:08:56
By "bouncing off" I meant that it didn't make any damage at all! And the distance was 100 m? Not sure, but it was quite close...

Did devs try to implement such feature that depending on length a tank will take different damage?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: gavrant on 11-08-2013, 14:08:43
Guys, does anyone of you really expect that a dev will gladly read and answer in the thread mostly containing "The mod is dead", "You're an idiot - No, you're an idiot", "I spent X cm online and you spent X/1000 cm online", undoubtfully very informed opinions on how many days/months/years it takes to finish a map, and shocking relevations that Korsakov had dirrect relationship to the re-election of Mr. Bush? It especially amuses me that I counted 5 beta-testers fighting each other on the previous page.

Before you continue, please consider the following:
- The invulnerable bike riders are fixed in the internal beta, as long as tanks mgunners and AT gunners.
- The objective mode is fixed in the internal beta.
- Ticket bleeds are fixed in the internal beta, at least the ticket bugs the devs know about.
Add here a bunch of other, less controversial, bugs fixed.

Also I'd like to specifically adress x4fun ODIUM:

Get ready to be patronised and told it's all in your imagination.

My personal 2.45 best-of:
...
"K98 has no added deviation. The SMLE is not better."
It may surprise you, but deviations of K98 and SMLE are identical in 2.45 (I chose only that part because it really takes mere seconds to check this).

But for how long do you guys know now, that these issues exist? Not a tiny hotfix in so long a time.
A tiny hotfix is not possible ATM. There are so many changes, that it's either a full blown patch or nothing.

Fact check: We [762] do not mod the game server sided. Oh sorry, yes we did. We fixed the objective mode on our servers. Sorry.
No, you didn't. At least that's not what I saw a month ago on your Anctoville. The map is broken, probably more than in vFH2.45.

And x4fun, could you slightly lessen the "762 is the only remaining stronghold of the mod" attitude, "it's as if they [the devs] want the game to fail" (a direct quote of another 762 admin from your forum)? Personally, I have nothing against 762, I played for 192 hours on your servers and still remember my debuting online rounds there. But what you and that "another 762 admin" constantly repeat here and there makes me somewhat unwilling to talk and cooperate with you two guys.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 11-08-2013, 14:08:54
Please check your facts Gavrant. As of yesterday, we could play Anctoville. Before we made the alterations, that was not possible. Because objects did NOT appear. Now the stars sometimes stay on the map, yes. But the necessary next objects appear ingame and can be destroyed. That is what matters.

On the K98 I might be wrong. So it is just me having a hard time hitting with it. Agreed.

You can give clear names, I have no problem with being contradicted, Gavrant.
I have not put the said "attitude" out here. It is when I get people claiming things that are not true, where I do contradict.

- such as "broken ranking" (not true)
- such as "angle mod is a [762] problem" (not true)
- we ban so many players that it kills the mod (not true)

EDIT: As of today there are 9 players banned on [762] for 2 or 4 weeks (repeated TK, smacktard, etc.)

There are about 70 others that are permanently banned for reasons such as Racism, Cheating and Hacking our servers. For example a certain Swizz person "lollercauster" who hacked Team Cont@ct, HSLAN and us in the past for example. Some of the bans we took over from PR servers when the hack was proven. Every player who feels himself unjustly treated can complain in our forums and expect a polite answer.


It is the problem that some people are good at dishing out accusations but quite bad when it comes to taking facts. When you read my posts you will see that in the majority of cases I try to give facts to underline my points. I do not have any problems with other servers coming up for competition. I would love to have HSLAN back or more players on VBIOS. But that is nothing I have a hand in.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 11-08-2013, 14:08:33
Thanks Gavrant for the post I was waiting for. Tell me also what is the status with fixing the angle mod/meshes or whataver which is responsible for this bugs relating to tanking?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 11-08-2013, 15:08:00
There are about 70 others that are permanently banned for reasons such as Cheating 

Why did you make the biggest cheat in FH2 (UniqueMck24) one of your server Admins, when you had previously banned him for such cheating?

..you know, one of the few good things to come out of the broken tank combat in 2.45 (because camping in tanks is all that cheating scumbag ever did),  is that it seems to have even pissed him off so much, he no longer plays.


 
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 11-08-2013, 15:08:04
There is another thread where we have discussed and answered that in all length, Defib.
I will not answer to that anymore, it has all been said.

@LuckyOne, server is up and running, should have all maps "[762] Custom Maps".
Just stop by or give me a PM when the time is right for you that week.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 11-08-2013, 15:08:53
Gavrant, there is a line between fighting and discussing. As long as we don't call each other names I have no problem with it and I don't think that the other beta testers or participants have a problem with it either, because people keep discussing and are interrested in the subject as you see, otherwise it would be damn quiet. Atleast that's how we do it, where I come from. I don't know whether you call a discussion with different opinions fighting? We even learn this in school. As a long as it stays clean - and I think it is atm - I see no problem.

That you say that Anctoville is more broken than in 2.45v is just plain wrong and not true. That's a fact, as we removed it from the rotation, because it got stuck. With the current fixes Neo and Knalli made it possible to get it back into the rotation atleast so that people could play the objective mode aswell. See, that's a chain of facts and argumentation.

Furthermore: why don't you have the strenght to say the names of people, who you don't want to cooperate with? We deal alot with people who don't share the same opinion, we discuss and we can take critics and feedback. We won't go mad, just because you say that you don't like person XYZ.
Odium has a good point: as long as people come up with their wild speculations, we can defend 762. We get alot of hard words from people like Korsakov, but nothing based on FACTS, and that is the point where we start to take part in the discussion. Because we will not accept, that people spread their lies about us.

Next to this I would like to state, that the biggest part of the active community is not posting here in this forum: people from Team Cont@ct for example and a big part of the 762 admin team, aswell as many other players and longtimers who share the same opinion. We are trying to communicate the problems that we see in our daily contact with the players and bring this to the devs. I don't know whether this is something that we should be ashamed of or not. The mainreason, why we are so stubborn and try to push and motivate the devs, is to keep the mod alive, nothing else. I understand that we can get a "bit" annoying from time to time, but it would be sad to see this mod dying sooner than later just because of failed communication.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 11-08-2013, 16:08:23
There is another thread where we have discussed and answered that in all length, Defib.

Really..where?


I will not answer to that anymore, it has all been said.

Why..because you don't like being reminded of making a cheat a server admin?

I don't care what he told you, once a cheat, always a cheat.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 11-08-2013, 16:08:01
I don't want to to make everyone think like me. If I see strong arguments, I can change my mind aswell
OK, but you make people look as dumbasses when they disagree with you. You post stuff like "Is that so hard to understand?", implying that the people who disagree with you simply don't have the brains to comprehend what you are saying. A bit insulting, if you ask me.

Both want to have the invincible biker ingame, wich is a cheat so my question to them and you was:
Should we encourage people to use cheats?
Same here. I'm not stupid, of course I don't want cheats. I also never said that the biker thing is good. And where did you read that they actually prefer the biker to be invincible? You are making the biker way bigger than he actually is. You wrote yourself a while ago that the bike was put in by the devs for the lulz, so why are you making such a fuss about it?

I don't know how often people grab bikes to cheat with them, I have never seen it myself. But if it happens everyday, ruining gameplay, then I understand your point. Still, you should try to refrain from posting stuff like "Is that so hard to understand?", because you are perfectly capable of discussing with a bit more respect, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 11-08-2013, 16:08:24

A cheat could be the ability for tankers to simply sit and snipe with there zoomed in sights, or planes to reload on the fly, some guns to have unlimited ammo, or an engineer sitting on a tankers ass constantly repairing him, these are all things that are not true to real war therefore, based on your opinion of the bike issue, these must be "cheats".  I really don't understand what the issue is with the bike?  I know you can't kill the guy by shooting him, but its not like theres hundreds of bikes on the maps, theres maybe one or two and they hardly get used.  Too me it just seems to be a minor issue.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 11-08-2013, 16:08:58
Next to this I would like to state, that the biggest part of the active community is not posting here in this forum: people from Team Cont@ct for example and a big part of the 762 admin team, aswell as many other players and longtimers who share the same opinion. We are trying to communicate the problems that we see in our daily contact with the players and bring this to the devs. I don't know whether this is something that we should be ashamed of or not. The mainreason, why we are so stubborn and try to push and motivate the devs, is to keep the mod alive, nothing else.


 Jimi stands and claps... At 1st i was appalled at the Private 762 Awards system & saw it as self serving....still do....but now my feelings have morphed into acquiescence as i see your heart is in the right place.....

...Actoville DOES work better & your communities efforts SHOULD be noted by the DEVS in the form of cooperation.



I understand that we can get a "bit" annoying from time to time, but it would be sad to see this mod dying sooner than later just because of failed communication.

 I applaude Shit's integrity for telling it like it is & being a man about it.

Prost!



 Ok...back into semi-self enforced fh2 forum retirement .......
 :P
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 11-08-2013, 16:08:05
When did a thread titled 'Development Progress' turn into a 2.45 tanking thread (slightly relevant but there's already a thread for that in the Feedback forum) and more recently a 762 bashing/ questions thread? (of which there is one somewhere)

Also Lightning/ garavant both gave us previously unknown information about the state of the development progress AND what's to come in the next patch. Other than those two posts its been almost ten pages of personal arguing and insensitive whining. ::)

Is this now just a complain about your bad times in FH2 thread?... cause if so.. *the sky in Sidi Bou Zid is very desolate and makes me sad when I play the game :'( therefore it should be changed in the next patch otherwise the devs are just WAITING for this mod to fail >:(* *sarcasm*
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 11-08-2013, 18:08:56
But we are talking about serious things which make this mod unplayable...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 11-08-2013, 18:08:46
Personally I enjoy the lighting and sky in Sidi Bou Zid.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 11-08-2013, 18:08:18
Indeed. Less irony and sarcasm.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: gavrant on 11-08-2013, 20:08:53
Thanks Gavrant for the post I was waiting for. Tell me also what is the status with fixing the angle mod/meshes or whataver which is responsible for this bugs relating to tanking?
I have some relation, direct or collateral, to the bugs listed in my post, while the armor affair lies completely out of my "department", so sorry, but I can't say anything useful here.


Please check your facts Gavrant. As of yesterday, we could play Anctoville. Before we made the alterations, that was not possible. Because objects did NOT appear. Now the stars sometimes stay on the map, yes. But the necessary next objects appear ingame and can be destroyed. That is what matters.
OK, here's what I saw during my Anctoville round as a Brit on the #4 server (IIRC) on the 22nd of June:
- Quite chaotic and messed up spawning. The British could spawn in the middle of the first group of objectives before it was destroyed. Both the British and the Germans occasionally spawned almost in the same place at the same moment.
- The round ended before the last group of objectives appeared.
- The objective stars from Anctoville were still visible on the following PdH (the flak) and Totalize which confused some of the players.
Good if all the issues above are fixed now.


On the K98 I might be wrong. So it is just me having a hard time hitting with it. Agreed.
It's probably the same thing as with SMGs. I prefer the Beretta 38 or Thompson M1A1 over the MP40 even if I know that they are exactly the same in the config part.


Gavrant, there is a line between fighting and discussing. As long as we don't call each other names I have no problem with it and I don't think that the other beta testers or participants have a problem with it either, because people keep discussing and are interrested in the subject as you see, otherwise it would be damn quiet. Atleast that's how we do it, where I come from. I don't know whether you call a discussion with different opinions fighting? We even learn this in school. As a long as it stays clean - and I think it is atm - I see no problem.
But even your opponent doesn't consider that as a clean and calm discussion, see reply #210 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19210.msg308070#msg308070).


You can give clear names, I have no problem with being contradicted, Gavrant.
Furthermore: why don't you have the strenght to say the names of people, who you don't want to cooperate with?
If the name is so important, the piece I quoted belongs to Watchy (http://www.762-ranking.de/forum/showthread.php?850-Fix-For-Objective-Mode-Help-us-test-762-3&p=7737&viewfull=1#post7737). Well, maybe, the post is not particularly criminal, but that shell landed near my foxhole, figuratively speaking.


I have not put the said "attitude" out here. It is when I get people claiming things that are not true, where I do contradict.

- such as "broken ranking" (not true)
- such as "angle mod is a [762] problem" (not true)
- we ban so many players that it kills the mod (not true)
Odium has a good point: as long as people come up with their wild speculations, we can defend 762. We get alot of hard words from people like Korsakov, but nothing based on FACTS, and that is the point where we start to take part in the discussion. Because we will not accept, that people spread their lies about us.
For me, as an outside viewer, the defense often follows this scenario:
An enemy ship dares to sail near the 762 territorial waters. The ship is intercepted by a scout boat which is soon joined by a wolf pack, while the ship is reinforced by passing convoys. Both sides then proceed with the usual routine of trying to torpedo and mine each other with who banned whom for bazooking infantry in the year 200x, whose ranking is true to the Bible, what would the Founding Fathers say about the ABC line rule, and so on.
Perhaps, if you occasionally let a trawler to slip away, people would long forget most of the false accusations instead of reiterating through them again and again?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 11-08-2013, 20:08:26
The Mp40 and Beretta are identical, the Thompson shoots a different rounds with more damage and more recoil.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: gavrant on 11-08-2013, 20:08:03
M1A1, 1928 or both? In my recent experience with our lethargic AI bots it takes the same 3-4 hits to kill someone with the M1A1 as with the MP40.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 11-08-2013, 20:08:34
All Thompsons use .45.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: gavrant on 11-08-2013, 21:08:41
Then I stand corrected - for me, the Beretta is better than the MP40, and the Thompson M1A1 is better than 1928 :P
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 11-08-2013, 21:08:17
Thanks for the reply Gavrant. You are welcome to stop by on the servers and check if how Anctoville is working as of today. Criticism and feedback is ofc welcome, you can directly contact Knallkopp and Neo about that.

About watchtower, he is entitled to his opinion, I will not regulate every word my admins say or attitude they have. If there is a serious problem, feel free to contact me and I'll try to help solve it.

Nice fleet analogy, but we don't have a battle plan on how to counter criticism.

We let more accusations pass then you may realize. I only react to serious criticism, when Theta comes up with his Panzerfaust story nowadays, I have learned to smile and ignore him along with the rest of the audience. Other than that I have learned that accusations have a tendency to mobilize into rumors and rumors into bad reputation if you do not contradict at one point.

Such as "stolen ranking" or "lazy developers". Both is nonsense. Just at some point you step in because you want to rectify it, may you be [762] contributor or FH2 developer ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 11-08-2013, 21:08:07
Peace and prosperity! Peace and prosperity!  :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 11-08-2013, 22:08:23
Gavrant, Slayer told me that I make my opponents look like "dumbasses" - his words, not mine. Did I call them "dumbasses"? No. I admit that my discussions can be quite hard and I may ask them some unpleasent questions (wich some of them still fail to answer - yes, you Chad1992), but you should know that I stay fair and that I never insult my opponents. If I see proper argumentation I have no problems to change my mind or give room, but both fail to argue. I don't write their posts so they are responsible how people perceive them and the stuff they post. I don't need to explain why we can't take people like Korsakov serious and Chad doesn't seem to understand the difference between a gameplay mechanic that translates reality into a game and a hack/glitch or cheat and why this stuff is important, not only for fluid gameplay but also for me as a server admin.

About Chad's argumentation:

"Sniping tanks looking through their optics" - what a damn hack. Seriously? I agree on the plane and rearming mechanic - but still not a hack or glitch. "Guns with unlimited ammo" - Does this give me the abbility to get bulletproof with my body exposed? Chad simply misses the important point that people in fact abuse the ability to get bullet proof on bikes. Whenever there is a map with bikes, I see people riding them into the flagzones. Brest, Sfakia, PeB just to name a few. That's not a joke, that's the reality on our server and it makes the game look like a complete joke. Sad but true ... when you are not so often on a server, you won't notice this hiding in your corner, but when you play quite often and walk with open eyes over the maps, that gets something different. So when you have a strong playerbase, the biggest part of it will notice it. At the end Chad still owes me the answer, whether we should encourage cheating/hacking or not.

I think, I don't have to explain why invincible players in computer games are a kind of hack, glitch or cheat. And we will not accept this stuff on our server. We can't do much about the biker atm - thatswhy it is so important for me that it got fixed by devs - but we will kick people for abusing glitches like hiding inside objectives and this stuff. If this is not enough of explaination, then I am lost for words. Ofcourse there are people who have the opinion that cheats are cool and they are entitled to have this opinion and they also might think that this is a "minor issue" to quote some of the people here, but in general those kind of people get a quite bad reputation and find themself alone on a server.

Over and out  ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: TASSER on 11-08-2013, 23:08:21
Remember the days when we used to talk about, well, the game. Like "whoa this would be a cool historically accurate inclusion to the mod" or "I recently found a cool tactic doing this!" Cause I don't...

It would be nice if we could have discussions that don't turn into:
1. The tank system, or
2. 762 (honestly nothing against the server, but good God I'm sick of seemingly every thread turn into a 762 battle).

Absolutely fantastic mod. Forgotten Hope has honestly been a big part of my life for years, ever since 0.7. Devs, you've made an incredible game and I look forward to all the great things to come.

God these forums are depressing though...

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 12-08-2013, 04:08:10
@shitmaker, no I don't encourage cheating, actually it really pisses me off.  There I answered your question.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 12-08-2013, 10:08:52
Remember the days when we used to talk about, well, the game. Like "whoa this would be a cool historically accurate inclusion to the mod" or "I recently found a cool tactic doing this!" Cause I don't...

It would be nice if we could have discussions that don't turn into:
1. The tank system, or
2. 762 (honestly nothing against the server, but good God I'm sick of seemingly every thread turn into a 762 battle).

Absolutely fantastic mod. Forgotten Hope has honestly been a big part of my life for years, ever since 0.7. Devs, you've made an incredible game and I look forward to all the great things to come.

God these forums are depressing though...

The tank system will be talked unless it gets fixed. It's IMO the only thing wrong in 2.45. It makes the game unplayable sometimes. It gets really frustrating at some point and you want to quit. We appreciate all the works and time devs put into this but sometimes things tend to end badly. This is one of them and there is no point in defending it. Angle mod is by far, is the most hated thing in 2.45.

Is it too hard to give Allied more tanks while giving Axis a few heavies. Make AT guns stronger. Make Handheld AT stronger as they were supposed to be. If Allies had retreated everytime they saw a Tiger or Panther, Germans would win the Normandy battle in a month. German Heavies are not indestructible. I had no problems destroying them in FH1. Because you had the means to destroy them. We didn't have this kind of maps.(So many bottlenecks-invitation for camping) no teamwork whatsoever, people waiting at base for vehicles while their team gets destroyed. I mean the mod itself, is not bad. It's the bad choices the devs had to make because of changing player base. The game has to become CODish because of the hotheaded boys who would cry over for almost anything.

People these days tend to go around with the motto " Meh if it's not like this than imma gonna play this" and I think this effects development.

What the devs really should do, is to get back their level of development like in FH1. Get your own decisions. You can't make everybody happy. You can't make a change when people wants something changed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 12-08-2013, 12:08:49
Erwin, your post is a bit contradictory. On one hand you say that devs should do what they want and on the other hand you call the 2.45 tanking system the most hated thing in the game. This tanking system was a development desicion by the devs to prolong the battle communication as stated several times.

There comes always a point when things can go wrong and then communication helps. Gavrant made alot of changes to current maps, that will make them a bit more balanced and enjoyable for both teams for the next version. These changes are a result of communication and discussions between betatesters and devs to find the best solutions. Maybe Gavrant can give some further information, as I don't know what I am allowed to tell or not.

@Chad: thanks for the answer  ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 12-08-2013, 13:08:24
The angle mod is the result of people bitching about heavy tanks getting killed by the shots to their topside. Nothing else.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 12-08-2013, 14:08:14
Gavrant, Slayer told me that I make my opponents look like "dumbasses" - his words, not mine. Did I call them "dumbasses"? No.
Apparently youy don't see why I say that. You ridicule the other participants in a discussion with you by saying stuff like "Is it that hard to udnerstand?" implying that they are too dumb to see what you mean, by your standards. Instead of trying to improve this, you simply continue (with stuff like "when you are not so often on a server, you won't notice this hiding in your corner, but when you play quite often and walk with open eyes over the maps, that gets something different" - again implying that all people with a different opinion play on your server hiding in a corner with their eyes closed...), making the impression that you a) don't understand it (that would be a surprise to me) b) you don't want to change it (which means you're stubborn).

Gavrant called me "your opponent". In fact, like I said, I agree with a lot you say about the mod. I just dislike the way you argue, as it is a cheap way to try and gain the upper hand.

as I don't know what I am allowed to tell or not.
You can easily find out by reading the internal forums: Testing Discussions/Information Regarding Leaking.

It would be nice if we could have discussions that don't turn into:
1. The tank system, or
2. 762 (honestly nothing against the server, but good God I'm sick of seemingly every thread turn into a 762 battle).
Yes, indeed that would be nice. I have linked to the tank thread many times already, but it doesn't work. The people who have a problem with the damage over range modifier* somehow get satisfaction out of posting their stuff here over and over and over again.

*= some call it the angle mod, while with the angle mod itself is not really that much wrong, and others go even further and say "the tank system" is wrong, like everything considering tanks is broken now - but this is all the result of people talking about stuff which they don't really know about, but when that's posted people just don't want to accept that and are insulted.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 12-08-2013, 14:08:11
You could let 5hitm4k3r off the hook here Slayer, starting to pick on him over and over does not do much to pacify the situation either. Or you guys can talk that through in all length via PM.

About the angle mod: Yesterday I drove a Pz IVH on Bastogne, had to fire frontally on an American captured German EDITED Sdkfz. 7 251 APC at a distance of roughly 50m (across the street). 2 shells 75mm AP bounced off it's frontal engine cover, it started to smoke (so I must have done something) and the 3rd shell AP killed it. So I presume that the angle of the my shell to the engine cover was so small that it "semi bounced off".

Question is, if this is intended, shall I only fire on APCs with HE (not always working so well either) to kill lightly armored vehicles with my tank?
Or is it not working as planned (as in "something IS wrong with angles and deflection")?

Why we keep bringing up that stuff - you know the saying "Constant dripping wears the stone."
We just want to make it heard that it is a problem that disturbes and scares away many players.
If someone has to be the annoying forum dude that keeps talking about it until it is improved,
I'll happily play the part, and so will 5hitm4k3r. We're not going for popularity here,
we want to see the mod improve.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 12-08-2013, 15:08:44
The SdKfz 7 doesn't even have anglemod enabled...

Panzer IV fires 75mmL48-AP-Projectile if I'm not mistaken, which is material 328 and does 125 base damage at under 10 metres and 49 base damage at 600 metres. The SdKfz 7 body consists of material 121 "tank_10mm" and has 125 hitpoints. Damage amplifier of material 328 against 121 is 17.25, so the minimum amount of damage that can be done is 49 * 17.25, which is 845.25, well above the vehicles maximum hitpoints.

Other materials used in the SdKfz 7 are Cloth 1016, AutoGlass 1018, Grnd_Tank_Tracks 86 and Rubber 102. Damage amplifiers of material 328 against these materials are 0, 0, 1 and 17.25.

Likely you hit the first shot against cloth or glass, doing no damage and the second shot against tracks, doing a little less than 125 damage.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: katakulli on 12-08-2013, 15:08:06
    So, one page on topic but 15 pages of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAvf-lyAF0o ?
 Dear EpicFoodEpic i apologize for the fh community.  :(
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 12-08-2013, 15:08:56
The SdKfz 7 doesn't even have anglemod enabled...

EDIT: My mistake, I was firing at a Sdkfz. 251 APC. I am sorry.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Butcher on 12-08-2013, 16:08:55
2.4 tanking was quite good. 2.45 tanking is not. What exactly did happen between those patches? I don´t know what you did exactly to the angle-mod. But I know you added a range modifier. I don´t get why that´s even in game at those short distances.

You combat vehicles which are about 400 meters away ("fog of war"). The penetration is set at 500 meters. I´m fine with that - it was like that in 2.4. But why was a modifier for the range needed? I could understand such a thing if we didn´t have "fog of war" and could actually look a kilometer far - but we can´t. Thus I think the range modifier wasn´t needed at all. Now you can´t kill tanks that are 300 meters away. The situation is silly as the tank that´s hit shrugs of the shot as if it was rather 3km away (aka taking less and insignificant damage).
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 12-08-2013, 16:08:49
You could let 5hitm4k3r off the hook here Slayer, starting to pick on him over and over does not do much to pacify the situation either. Or you guys can talk that through in all length via PM.
I'm not "picking on him", but OK, I'll be the wiser guy and ignore his "arguing" until he improves it.

Why we keep bringing up that stuff - you know the saying "Constant dripping wears the stone."
And that's where you guys go wrong. The devteam isn't a stone. Once more: the complaints are heard, it is understood, it has been brought up internally. Now it's up to them to see if they want to change it, and how.

We just want to make it heard that it is a problem that disturbes and scares away many players.
There are many reasons why players move on. I myself had a long break from FH2 just because I didn't want to play games for a while. Now I picked it up again and so have some others. Sure, there will be some players who quit FH2 because of the range modifier, but there are 1000 other reasons why the community is not as big as before. So pls don't assume that it is all because of this, unless you can come up with hard facts, for example in an independent survey among ex-FH2 players.

If someone has to be the annoying forum dude that keeps talking about it until it is improved,
I'll happily play the part, and so will 5hitm4k3r. We're not going for popularity here,
we want to see the mod improve.
Yet you push so hard that you are overdoing it, eventually even risking the opposite. I'm really sorry you guys can't see that.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 12-08-2013, 17:08:35
2.4 tanking was quite good. 2.45 tanking is not. What exactly did happen between those patches? I don´t know what you did exactly to the angle-mod. But I know you added a range modifier. I don´t get why that´s even in game at those short distances.

You combat vehicles which are about 400 meters away ("fog of war"). The penetration is set at 500 meters. I´m fine with that - it was like that in 2.4. But why was a modifier for the range needed? I could understand such a thing if we didn´t have "fog of war" and could actually look a kilometer far - but we can´t. Thus I think the range modifier wasn´t needed at all. Now you can´t kill tanks that are 300 meters away. The situation is silly as the tank that´s hit shrugs of the shot as if it was rather 3km away (aka taking less and insignificant damage).

All true, but we have to remember, most vehicle maps are scaled down. And because of the limits of the engine we can't have true combat ranges. Yes, the range modifier is overdone, but it's not exactly totally wrong in the FH 2 portrayal of vehicle combat. I think an appropriate reduction so that tanks can take a few shots on the average fog edge ranges could work ok, and still feel reasonably realistic.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 12-08-2013, 17:08:52
The SdKfz 7 doesn't even have anglemod enabled...

Ah, that's something new to me... So you implemented anglemod to specific vehicles. If yes, can sb enlighten me what was the reason of implementing this anglemod to APCs, trucks when they should be destroyed by everything from every angle with 1 shot?  ???
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 12-08-2013, 18:08:17
But I know you added a range modifier. I don´t get why that´s even in game at those short distances.
if beta testers' opinions would really matter it probably would be removed in the next internal update after the one it was introduced in.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 12-08-2013, 19:08:53
Ah, that's something new to me... So you implemented anglemod to specific vehicles. If yes, can sb enlighten me what was the reason of implementing this anglemod to APCs, trucks when they should be destroyed by everything from every angle with 1 shot?  ???
I think it's because the angle mod prevents vehicles from taking damage from the terrain. However, most APCs and trucks only have anglemod 0.1 enabled, so you will only really notice a difference if you hit at an angle very close to 0. Then again, I'm not a coder, I don't know how the anglemod works, I can only repeat what little I think I remember from what I've read on the forum.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 12-08-2013, 20:08:11
Ah, that's something new to me... So you implemented anglemod to specific vehicles. If yes, can sb enlighten me what was the reason of implementing this anglemod to APCs, trucks when they should be destroyed by everything from every angle with 1 shot?  ???
I think it's because the angle mod prevents vehicles from taking damage from the terrain. However, most APCs and trucks only have anglemod 0.1 enabled, so you will only really notice a difference if you hit at an angle very close to 0. Then again, I'm not a coder, I don't know how the anglemod works, I can only repeat what little I think I remember from what I've read on the forum.

So there must be other issue causing APCs, trucks surviving tank shots...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: gavrant on 12-08-2013, 20:08:26
Gavrant made alot of changes to current maps, that will make them a bit more balanced and enjoyable for both teams for the next version. These changes are a result of communication and discussions between betatesters and devs to find the best solutions. Maybe Gavrant can give some further information, as I don't know what I am allowed to tell or not.
Most of the map balancing belongs to Natty, not me. As for my contribution, it's usually cosmetics and fixes for known bugs. And I doubt that news such as the buggy PHL road being finally fixed will spark major celebrations across the globe :)

if beta testers' opinions would really matter it probably would be removed in the next internal update after the one it was introduced in.
Jan, Jan, Jan...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 12-08-2013, 21:08:17
Ah, that's something new to me... So you implemented anglemod to specific vehicles. If yes, can sb enlighten me what was the reason of implementing this anglemod to APCs, trucks when they should be destroyed by everything from every angle with 1 shot?  ???
I think it's because the angle mod prevents vehicles from taking damage from the terrain. However, most APCs and trucks only have anglemod 0.1 enabled, so you will only really notice a difference if you hit at an angle very close to 0. Then again, I'm not a coder, I don't know how the anglemod works, I can only repeat what little I think I remember from what I've read on the forum.

So there must be other issue causing APCs, trucks surviving tank shots...

Jeeps and APC's are fast moving vehicles so the shots only kinda brush them. But that's not the frustrating part for me personaly as those vehicles can't fire back. When you sit in your PaK 40 and fire into a Sherman side, then the world looks totaly different.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 12-08-2013, 22:08:48
Just to clarify what happened (there was no movement involved, 5hitm4k3r :) ):
This is the situation, just imagine me being a PzIV, had noone to pose for me, but I put the APC in the same place and position. Everything else is the same. I took 3 rounds AP to kill the APC (American GI inside). Any ideas about that?
(http://s21.postimg.org/k5gt5r4w7/screen008.png) (http://postimg.org/image/jfy0te4cj/full/)


On a side note, screen taken yesterday, for the faction saying it is not happening :)
(http://s21.postimg.org/701aznb0n/screen007.png) (http://postimg.org/image/l6h1uvlvn/full/)


Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 12-08-2013, 23:08:48
It shouldn't be taking three shots at less than 30m, especially in a PzIV. Are you sure your aim was on and that there was no lag or anything? Just asking, before I bother to try and see for myself.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 12-08-2013, 23:08:24
I have asked the same question while one of the betatest sessions: would it be possible to completely remove the anglemod from soft targets like AT guns, jeeps or APC's? Or would this cause too much damage by the terrain when you are driving over it?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Leopardi on 13-08-2013, 15:08:54
I personally don't see the problem with hanomag surviving because of its angled armor. It's nice that you can survive by luck sometimes.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jupp-FH1/2 on 13-08-2013, 16:08:20
I personally don't see the problem with hanomag surviving because of its angled armor. It's nice that you can survive by luck sometimes.

Are you serious? You like the fact that luck determines the effectiveness of your gun?

If so, please uninstall and burn your copy of BF2...  :'(
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 13-08-2013, 17:08:19
Leopardi, if it was a rifle calibre round, I would have no problem.
If it was a heavy machine gun (12,7mm) round that would bounce off from time to time with a good angle, fine. As it was in real life. FH2 is supposed to be realism oriented.

But a 75mm solid armor piercing round should at least penetrate that 10mm no matter how sloped it is.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Horstpetersens on 13-08-2013, 19:08:04
luck or somthing like weaponspray is one of the things i hate most in games
i dont care if it is realistic or not it cuts the fun.
...and the weapon spray is unrealistic huge in fh2 for some weapons and ranges
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 13-08-2013, 19:08:22
luck or somthing like weaponspray is one of the things i hate most in games
i dont care if it is realistic or not it cuts the fun.
...and the weapon spray is unrealistic huge in fh2 for some weapons and ranges

You know what's also unrealistic? People running around like headless chickens, people showing absolutely no care for their "virtual" lives, people riding a bicycle in the middle of a warzone.

You can't say "I don't care if it's realistic or not" and then complain that the weapon spray is "unrealistic".

Weapon spray is something you have to learn how to deal with. Can't hit something? Well, then get closer or ask a friend with a sniper rifle to shoot it!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 13-08-2013, 19:08:14
How am i supposed to deal with a RANDOM weapon spray? I can´t rely on anything if cant predict what consequences my actions have.
You can also say learn to play Roulette. It´s the natural character of randomness that you can´t predict results.

I´m not willed to base my play on luck. That´s why i avoid gambling.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 13-08-2013, 19:08:17
luck or somthing like weaponspray is one of the things i hate most in games
i dont care if it is realistic or not it cuts the fun.
...and the weapon spray is unrealistic huge in fh2 for some weapons and ranges

You know what's also unrealistic? People running around like headless chickens, people showing absolutely no care for their "virtual" lives, people riding a bicycle in the middle of a warzone.

You can't say "I don't care if it's realistic or not" and then complain that the weapon spray is "unrealistic".

Weapon spray is something you have to learn how to deal with. Can't hit something? Well, then get closer or ask a friend with a sniper rifle to shoot it!

Lucky, there is a point when a game takes too much controll out of the players hand. FH2 is at this point currently. I play alot with different people using TS, communicating what we see ingame and how we perceive certain situations from the shooting as well as from the receiving end, also in different teams. A bit of luck can be nice and a bit of spray too and there is no question that weapons have spray in RL. But not the amount of randomness we have atm. My favorite example is the stationary 2pdr as it has an extreme amount of spray that no player in the world can deal with also on close distance - it is total luck whether you can kill your opponent before you get shot. Ofcourse people are too careless in many cases, but on the other hand can I drive my Sherman totaly careless around, get a shot of a PIV in the ass from 50 metre and still survive and bail, that's something that I do not want to deserve. That's not a joke that's a first hand story from the server today. It just happens too often. :(
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 13-08-2013, 21:08:19
Ofcourse people are too careless in many cases, but on the other hand can I drive my Sherman totaly careless around, get a shot of a PIV in the ass from 50 metre and still survive and bail, that's something that I do not want to deserve. That's not a joke that's a first hand story from the server today. It just happens too often. :(

Yeah, and it's immense fun :P.

Don't remove this devs, I won't be able to run circles around the whole Axis team with the Bren carrier while all the Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks miracoulously bounce off me! The Bren carrier was never so much useful in the whole history of FH 2! Especially now when you can take a few teammates who can spam unlimited nades at the enemy!  ;D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 14-08-2013, 17:08:36
How am i supposed to deal with a RANDOM weapon spray? I can´t rely on anything if cant predict what consequences my actions have.
You can also say learn to play Roulette. It´s the natural character of randomness that you can´t predict results.

I´m not willed to base my play on luck. That´s why i avoid gambling.
Then play another fucking game, BF2 engine can't offer weapon sway so it's either spray or laser beam.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 14-08-2013, 17:08:08
Other games like Roulette you mean?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 14-08-2013, 18:08:50
Laser beam>spray
Besides, FH2 is one of those few games that actually give you properly powerful and accurate guns. So Its not like there many other games to choose from if you want that kind of gameplay... (Red Orchestra maybe? I dunno what else honestly).And thats probably one of the best things about this mod.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 14-08-2013, 20:08:08
Definitly going for the laser beam, encourages skill, not dolphine diving and the likes.
Also because of the reasons stated by those above.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-08-2013, 22:08:52
^ Laser beams = boring Unreal Tournament 2004 insta-gib slugging match. Everyone either too scared to move, or doesn't give a crap about deaths anyway. Spawn-kill-die-repeat ad nauseam.  It's not WW II, it's UT with WW II skins.

However tanks have too much deviation currently...

And if we are going for the laser beams already, why can't I fire my Bren more accurately while on the move? Does it instantly become a useless weapon just because I'm walking while using it? Some consistency would help there...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 14-08-2013, 22:08:07
Because it weighs focken 11kg.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 14-08-2013, 22:08:55
I´m sure you can fire Bren. With less accuracy but you can.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 15-08-2013, 12:08:12
Because it weighs focken 11kg.

So?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-CfuvCHq4I
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 15-08-2013, 13:08:47
Because it weighs focken 11kg.

So?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-CfuvCHq4I

Yeah, 2-3 bullets hits the target others spray over bushes in the back.  ;D

Besides, about spray thingy, I don't know honestly what you're talking about. I can even get out of flagzones with 4-5 people.

If you want this game to be so hardcore realistic you should consider also following facts:

- You have to shit yourself every so often, it will distract you.(In a fight, this is a common thing.)
- You are going to need goddamn help when you get hit. Instead of continue your run and patch yourself with a silly bandage.
- Even a small shot wound matters.
- You can stand next to the AT guns or the arty without disorientating.
- Tanks can smash you if you get in their way.
- There will be shellshock effect.

If anybody wants to continue, be my guest.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-08-2013, 13:08:50
Yeah, 2-3 bullets hits the target others spray over bushes in the back.  ;D

But the difference is, IRL the rounds go where the barrel is pointed, in FH2 they go all over the place. Also the first few rounds should be on target if aimed right, while in FH 2 they have a ton of random deviation. Sometimes it's hard to hit someone 1.5 m in front of you, which is total bullshit.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 15-08-2013, 13:08:23
This discussion will not end until FH moves to a new engine.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-08-2013, 13:08:39
This discussion will not end until FH moves to a new engine.

Or until BF2 engine is open-sourced ;D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Defibkiller on 15-08-2013, 16:08:19
Yeah, 2-3 bullets hits the target others spray over bushes in the back.  ;D

He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 15-08-2013, 16:08:52
He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.
but he's not a regular guy in his 60's.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ec/LockNLoadDVDCover.jpg)

he's a kind of a badass, you must admit it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 15-08-2013, 16:08:53
This discussion will not end until FH moves to a new engine.

Or until BF2 engine is open-sourced ;D
Which it won't be, because EA is still making money off of it, and will continue to for years to come because it's on both Steam and Origin and has two fairly prominent mods reeling people in.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 15-08-2013, 16:08:28
Yeah, 2-3 bullets hits the target others spray over bushes in the back.  ;D

But the difference is, IRL the rounds go where the barrel is pointed, in FH2 they go all over the place. Also the first few rounds should be on target if aimed right, while in FH 2 they have a ton of random deviation. Sometimes it's hard to hit someone 1.5 m in front of you, which is total bullshit.

Yes, that's because the barrel aims at the center of the screen. But yeah sure, why not add laser beam Bren auto-mode hipfiring. Then we can do the same laser beam hipfire buff for the MG42. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57dW3A-DT0
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 15-08-2013, 19:08:06
He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.

DUDE THAT IS fucking R. Lee Ermey. He has fired more machine guns than Rambo. Watch some good movies. Start by looking up Stanley Kubrick in Google. R. L. Ermey an old guy who has never fired...ffs what has the world come to... :(
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-08-2013, 19:08:33
Yes, that's because the barrel aims at the center of the screen. But yeah sure, why not add laser beam Bren auto-mode hipfiring. Then we can do the same laser beam hipfire buff for the MG42. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57dW3A-DT0

The thing is, I just want a chance to defend myself when someone pops out on me around a corner. At least make the first 2 bullets land near the center, then put random deviation like now.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 15-08-2013, 20:08:18
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-08-2013, 20:08:29
He's also an old guy in his 60's firing a Bren for the first time, not a very fit 20yr old who's been trained on the Bren for 6mths before going into combat.

DUDE THAT IS fucking R. Lee Ermey. He has fired more machine guns than Rambo. Watch some good movies. Start by looking up Stanley Kubrick in Google. R. L. Ermey an old guy who has never fired...ffs what has the world come to... :(

Took the words outta my mouth, that guy was a Marine Corps drill sergeant and was a military supervisor for films before becoming the stereotype for drill sergeants everywhere. I'd trust his opinion on weapons and how they're fired.   
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kalkalash on 15-08-2013, 21:08:08
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.
Since when have rifles or SMGs had any deviation (aside from after jumping and going prone)? The last time I played the bullets went where I aimed, even when firing full auto.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 16-08-2013, 10:08:28
But a 75mm solid armor piercing round should at least penetrate that 10mm no matter how sloped it is.

That's elementary mechanics, the shell will bounce with very low angles, even if it's only a 10mm thick plate.

If you have ever seen a picture of a tank shell, you should understand the shape of the shell makes any penetration at angles below 10° (maybe even a bit more) VERY unlikely.
Only an insignificant proportion of the shell's velocity force would be applied on the side of the sharp end of that shell when it hits, and it can only slide on that surface, not penetrate it.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 16-08-2013, 13:08:57
I made a test with the DP28 yesterday and it sprays like hell too and explains the whole problem. Even if I fire in prone position, take my time to aim and fire in singleshot mode (no bursts), the bullets spray totaly random and hit around a center point in the distance (around 150 metre-200 metre) with a deviation of several metres. I wait around three or four seconds between every single shot. And this explains the problem of randomness we have in the game with alot of different weapons. Even if I aim perfectly fine with a very accurate weapon like a rifle, I can't predict whether I will hit or not. I think that it is possible to find a good balance as 2.3 and 2.4 worked better in terms of the accuracy of weapons. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced and will never be perfect, but there certainly is room for improvements.
Since when have rifles or SMGs had any deviation (aside from after jumping and going prone)? The last time I played the bullets went where I aimed, even when firing full auto.

Rifles and smgs have almost no deviation. The DP28 is WIP.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 16-08-2013, 14:08:00
Strat84, I do understand your point and have been to Munster and other places that exhibit tank shells.
The question is, what will a tank shell, with that energy (50m) at that angle do)

a) at the spot of impact (deform the metal, maybe get stuck and deflected downwards by any protruding objects)?
b) where will it bounce to? (I suppose directly into the driver's compartment, killing the people inside if they are not very lucky)

I do not have a problem with having to use HE shells to destroy lightly armored vehicles.
(The idea being, that a sabot round will just pierce and pass through).

Only then it must be assured, that the HE shell, when it hits the APC, assuredly kills it. Which it sadly does not at the moment. The result is (as seen here) that I have to fire 3 rounds of AP on an APC (or AT gun, when unlucky) because AP shells bounce off and HE shells do not work properly either.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 16-08-2013, 15:08:04
Strat84, I do understand your point and have been to Munster and other places that exhibit tank shells.
The question is, what will a tank shell, with that energy (50m) at that angle do)

a) at the spot of impact (deform the metal, maybe get stuck and deflected downwards by any protruding objects)?
b) where will it bounce to? (I suppose directly into the driver's compartment, killing the people inside if they are not very lucky)

That's a good question. In your example, yes there's a quite high probability the shell would be deflected into the driver's armored shutter, and it probably would penetrate it. Or the trajectory might be messed up by the bounce and the shell deflected a 2nd time by the shutter with some luck, that's hard to know.

But shooting the top of the engine of a halftrack while being right in front of it is a worst case scenario. That's one of the very few situations where the game engine doesn't allow to model exactly what would happen in real life, but that's the best tradeoff we can have.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 16-08-2013, 20:08:20
That's elementary mechanics, the shell will bounce with very low angles, even if it's only a 10mm thick plate.
Remined me of an old joke: If a paper is sloped to 0.000000000001 degree, it can withstand any AP shell in any calibre...

Plz google: Shell normalization.

But to be fair, angle mod bug isn't really the problem, it was there in 2.4 and the bugs were minor back then.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 16-08-2013, 21:08:22
Remined me of an old joke: If a paper is sloped to 0.000000000001 degree, it can withstand any AP shell in any calibre...
If we assume the paper is a sheet of 0.1mm thick, an AP shell that hits it at a 0.000000000001 degrees or (89.9999999999999 degrees from the norm) will travel through 5.7295*10^12 mm or 5.7 million kilometres. That's about 15 times the distance to the Moon.

Plz google: Shell normalization.
I only get pages referring to World of Tanks. One site, this one (http://ftr-wot.blogspot.nl/2013/04/digging-deeper-1-shell-normalization.html), quite clearly states that real world normalisation values would be positive, adding to the armour. So the projectile gets deflected off the armour, not into it. Which makes sense to me...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 16-08-2013, 22:08:27
I only get pages referring to World of Tanks. One site, this one (http://ftr-wot.blogspot.nl/2013/04/digging-deeper-1-shell-normalization.html)

This article is arguing the whole idea of shell normalization..

The normailization works like:

(http://i.imgur.com/qaEPW.gif)

Actual pic:

(http://s007.radikal.ru/i301/1104/33/fb64e6acd3fe.jpg)

As it shows the shell is turning into the armor.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 16-08-2013, 22:08:38
Yes, but according to the data of Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingston: WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, projectile deflection plays a larger role and actually increases the effective thickness of the armour beyond the slope alone. At least, according to that site I posted the link of, I can't find the book online to check for myself.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 17-08-2013, 06:08:14
One site, this one (http://ftr-wot.blogspot.nl/2013/04/digging-deeper-1-shell-normalization.html), quite clearly states that real world normalisation values would be positive

Actually this article didn't tell a much different story:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

That means angle has less effect on the penetration of large calibre shells(large compare to the thickness of plate it penetrates). That's why a 75mm or 88mm AP should penetrate an APC even it's hit on 10 degree.

Besides, angle mod of FH2 doesn't bounce the shell. If the vehicle's meterial can be damaged by a projectile, it will "absorb" it, though the angle mod may decide taking less damage.

(http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad76/powerz2/stugivhitbox.jpg)

When you hit the upper purple part of the Stug, in reality the shell should bounce into the frontal superstructure. In game, the shell would be absorbed by the purple part and hardly cause damage because of angle. Same thing happens on the model of PzIV, Cromwell, vehicles like Panther, Hetzer have less problem.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 17-08-2013, 08:08:38
(http://s007.radikal.ru/i301/1104/33/fb64e6acd3fe.jpg)

As it shows the shell is turning into the armor.

Absolutely not.  ;)

If the round had turned like your animation shows, there wouldn't be a perfect straight cut in the lower part of the "penetration tunnel" from the entry point.
The upper part of the entry point in bent because in the first centimeters of travel, the armor left  above was very thin, the friction with the shell was propably enough to soften the metal, and the velocity force of the shell did the rest.

Talking about the exit point yes, the shell turned, but simply because it didn't encounter any resistance below, while there was still something to go through above.

Something that would also be interesting to know is what kind of shell did this hole.  :)

BTW:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

That means angle has less effect on the penetration of large calibre shells(large compare to the thickness of plate it penetrates). That's why a 75mm or 88mm AP should penetrate an APC even it's hit on 10 degree.

You didn't understand the article I think. Yes, he says that larger calibers are more effective than smaller ones, but NOT that the deflection effect doesn't exist with bigger shells.

In other words, there's an actual effect INCREASING the armor effectiveness with sharp slopes whatever the caliber (a positive one, the OPPOSITE of your normalization theory), BUT this effect decreases with shell size.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 17-08-2013, 10:08:52
We fixed the Panzerschreck in our minimod. What we did was simply making it's damage Equal to M1 Bazooka. It works like a charm now.  8)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 17-08-2013, 10:08:21
and who asks about your minimod development progress, isn't this thread about something else?

Oh wait, it went off topic several pages ago...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 17-08-2013, 11:08:09
Since you answered yourself, there is no need for me to answer you.  :P

Anyway, I write this down because I think some of the projectiles is under powered. That's one of the reason people are complaining about angle mod.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 17-08-2013, 14:08:22
We fixed the Panzerschreck in our minimod. What we did was simply making it's damage Equal to M1 Bazooka. It works like a charm now.  8)
This change was made in the internal beta too, 9 months ago.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 17-08-2013, 19:08:01
I really like to hear that, much needed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Butcher on 17-08-2013, 23:08:58
Dafuq? Panzerschreck having Bazooka damage... so why should I take the thing over the Kar98k + Panzeraust again? I hope that´s no final "fix" and only a beta thing.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 17-08-2013, 23:08:44
Dafuq? Panzerschreck having Bazooka damage... so why should I take the thing over the Kar98k + Panzeraust again? I hope that´s no final "fix" and only a beta thing.
Atm it's worse than zook, right? And why pick it: bec faust is 1 shot, schreck is 5.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Gotkai on 17-08-2013, 23:08:55
On which map? Last time i used it they had 3 rockets.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 18-08-2013, 00:08:32
What other minor changes have been done in the latest beta, if its okay to ask?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 18-08-2013, 00:08:28
Latest report

Bikes are more armored, and they are equipped with dual 20mm cannons. ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 18-08-2013, 01:08:45
On which map? Last time i used it they had 3 rockets.
Ah, 3 it is, then. Still 300% of what you get with the Faust.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 18-08-2013, 02:08:15
You didn't understand the article I think. Yes, he says that larger calibers are more effective than smaller ones, but NOT that the deflection effect doesn't exist with bigger shells.

In other words, there's an actual effect INCREASING the armor effectiveness with sharp slopes whatever the caliber (a positive one, the OPPOSITE of your normalization theory), BUT this effect decreases with shell size.

First I don't agree with that article, normalization is not an effect imagined by WoT devs, it's broadly accepted and proved by actual test(like the 120mm penetration pic I posted).

Second, the article itself had been contradicting in using the term normalization:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

If "nomalization higher" here means increasing the target armor, then the first sentence means larger calibre and more mass per mm² helps increasing armor? Even if so, why the second sentence says small calibres are worse?

Third, we are talking about obivious case that shell should penetrate despite angle, like tank AP hitting an APC. The force per space a tank shell apply to 10mm of APC armor is way beyond its resistence, even it's shot from 10 degree.

Things are not just simple trigonometric, if it is, did you ever see a paper bounce off bullet?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 18-08-2013, 04:08:43
Dafuq? Panzerschreck having Bazooka damage... so why should I take the thing over the Kar98k + Panzeraust again? I hope that´s no final "fix" and only a beta thing.
"Damage" in terms of the BF2 tweak files means base damage and does not take the material damage modifiers into account, so on the whole it's only vaguely related to the actual damage you do. Needless to say the Panzerschreck and Bazooka rockets have different materials, so are under the effect of different damage multipliers.

In general terms you could say the base damage was increased from 45 to 55 hitpoints, so the panzerschreck will do over 20% more damage than it currently does.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 18-08-2013, 04:08:55
Just tested the Schreck in the current beta and I can finaly kill Shermans with one shot again.  ;D

And what Lightning said: giving the Schreck and the Bazooka the same capablities is not the way to go. They have different calibres in RL and that's how they should be represented ingame.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 11:08:00
Could you do me a favor shitmaker and check, if you can oneshot a Sherman only to the side or also to the front? Of course only if there are no axtra tracks and stuff.

By the way does the the Panzerfaust 30 has the same damage as the 60/100? I can hardly believe so, since I find myself unable to oneshot a Sherman to the front with a 30 wherelse with a 60/100 its no problem.

If they have different damage why? Didnt they have the same armor penetration capability?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 18-08-2013, 11:08:55
First I don't agree with that article, normalization is not an effect imagined by WoT devs, it's broadly accepted and proved by actual test(like the 120mm penetration pic I posted).

That's the first time I've ever heard about this theory. Calling it broadly accepted and proven when it goes against all the laws of physics is definitively a bit presumptuous.
And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.

Second, the article itself had been contradicting in using the term normalization:

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²). In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.

If "nomalization higher" here means increasing the target armor, then the first sentence means larger calibre and more mass per mm² helps increasing armor? Even if so, why the second sentence says small calibres are worse?
And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X

Third, we are talking about obivious case that shell should penetrate despite angle, like tank AP hitting an APC. The force per space a tank shell apply to 10mm of APC armor is way beyond its resistence, even it's shot from 10 degree.

Things are not just simple trigonometric, if it is, did you ever see a paper bounce off bullet?
This smoky theory may seem obvious to you, but for any skilled physicist it is obviously plain bullshit. And it's a bit more complicated than just trigonometry.
If you ever have the possibility, try with a rigid steel sheet as thin as paper. Or maybe you would like to claim normalization proven if you manage to penetrate a 120mm thick paper plate ?  ;D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 18-08-2013, 13:08:10
By the way does the the Panzerfaust 30 has the same damage as the 60/100? I can hardly believe so, since I find myself unable to oneshot a Sherman to the front with a 30 wherelse with a 60/100 its no problem.

If they have different damage why? Didnt they have the same armor penetration capability?
You can check this yourself really easily with nothing but winrar and notepad. It takes less than a minute.

Go to your fh2 folder and open objects_weapons_server.zip. Now look for the panzerfausts. They are in \Weapons\Handheld. Here you see a .tweak file. This file contains the code for the weapon. Now in BF2 weapons fire projectiles and the damage a projectile does depends on its base damage and the damage multiplier between its material and its target's material. For the panzerfausts however, we are in luck, it's extra simple.

All panzerfausts have a separate directory for their projectile in the weapons folder itself, panzerfaust30m_charge/ for example. Open this folder and open the .tweak file of the projectile. Now, there are 2 kinds of damage for the panzerfaust 30 projectile, explosive (ObjectTemplate.detonation.explosionDamage 140) and regular (ObjectTemplate.damage 55). Explosive damage isn't very interesting, because it's the regular damage that counts against tanks. So we see the panzerfaust 30 does 55 hitpoints of base damage. We also see some other interesting things, like the minimal damage is defined twice and the projectile loses damage over distance, though this only starts after 50m and the projectile can't be shot that far. The most important thing other than the base damage to note here however is the projectile material, which controls the damage multiplier. For the panzerfaust 30 we see that it is ObjectTemplate.material 310.

Now we can check the other panzerfausts. We see, luckily, that both the other panzerfausts also use material 310, so we don't have to check the material manager to compare them. However, we also see that both the 60 and 100 do 90 base damage, so that is quite a lot more than the 30.

So yes indeed, that does not seem to be correct.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 18-08-2013, 13:08:57
Maybe the projectile of the panzerfaust 30 isn't as big as the others ? Or that's a panzerfaust 30 klein we have ingame (even though the model doesn't look like the picture I've found) ?

I know the panzerfaust 30 klein has a lower caliber, but the informations I could find with a quick research about panzerfaust 30 are rather confusing and contradictory.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 18-08-2013, 13:08:35
That's the first time I've ever heard about this theory.
This smoky theory may seem obvious to you, but for any skilled physicist it is obviously plain bullshit.
A "skilled physicist" who first time heard (I'm not saying agree) this theory? Hmm...

And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X
Ok, so a higher value of normalization means harder to penetrate, right?

Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²).
Greater shell diameter makes it harder to penetrate.

Quote
In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.
Small calibres are even harder.........

And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.
I don't prove it, what happens is happened and is clearly shown on the photo. I brought up shell normalization because that's a one theory to explain this phenomenon. You have your own explaination to it on the other thread, fine, but does it make a difference? Isn't the armor plate of the vehicles have the same shape of cross section as the plate in the photo I post? It would make a difference if it's a triangular cross section.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 18-08-2013, 14:08:07
Lightning if you looked in the beta you might have looked at the Faustpatrone, that one has a smaller warhead.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 18-08-2013, 15:08:05
A "skilled physicist" who first time heard (I'm not saying agree) this theory? Hmm...
What do you think, that people have to get informed about every single bizarre theory that anyone may produce in the world ?
It's the same as if you were saying I, as an Energy specialist, had to know every single detail about the shitload of different "perpetual movement" machineries that generations of scammers kept popping out for more than two centuries.

And in case you believed it, no you can't generate energy with any device of that kind.  ;)

And he uses quote marks ... He's not meaning "your" normalization, he's meaning an effect that would make penetration easier with negative values, and harder with positive value. Did you read the bloody chart ?  :-X
Ok, so a higher value of normalization means harder to penetrate, right?
Right, if you use the "normalization" term as in the article.


Quote
“normalization” gets higher values with a greater shell diameter (that means more mass per mm²).
Greater shell diameter makes it harder to penetrate.

Quote
In other words: Small calibers are worse against sloped armor.
Small calibres are even harder.........
Right, but said a misleading way.

The proper formulation is:
The slope of the armor makes penetration even harder than simply comparing the penetration power of a shell to the apparent armor thickness ( armor thickness/sin(angle) ).
This additionnal effect exists for every AP type of shell, and decreases with caliber increase.

And again, as I told you previously if you read what I wrote, you don't need much observation sense to see that your picture doesn't prove anything.
I don't prove it, what happens is happened and is clearly shown on the photo. I brought up shell normalization because that's a one theory to explain this phenomenon. You have your own explaination to it on the other thread, fine, but does it make a difference? Isn't the armor plate of the vehicles have the same shape of cross section as the plate in the photo I post? It would make a difference if it's a triangular cross section.
It's not that I have my explanation, it's only that there is NOTHING on your bloody picture related to that normalisation theory. You're bringing a theory when there's NO phenomenon to explain !

The lower part of the entry point on right is STRAIGHT, which can't be if a shell turned like shown in your animation.

So what do you want to explain with this ? The slight curve at the exit point on left ? The basic balance of forces easily explains this, you don't need any other theory. And anyway it's the bloody EXIT point, who cares about the way the round exits, your point is all about it should penetrate with a turning round !
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 15:08:44
First thank you very much Lightning. Not only for the detailed information, but also für the explanation how to get it for myself next time!

@Ts4ever
But why are those files called Panzerfaust 30m than, not Faustpatrone. Though of course you might be right we should check this.

BUT this difference is very much what my experience ingame suggested. One shoting a Sherman to the front with the 30 is impossible, while with the 60/100 its easy going. (I know there are different Shermans and in my experience it accounts for all of them. Second on the maps with 60/100 there are mostly the stronger M4A3 Shermans, so the 60/100 is even stronger apparently.)

So if there is really the difference between damage of the 30 and the 60/100 Fausts there are three questions in my mind.

First is this based on a historical difference in penetration i dont know of yet. At least German Wikipedia doesnt say so: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust (look at teh table should be understandable for english speakers too)

Second is there any phsical reason, because greater range and higher speed of the projectle somehow causes less penetration (At least sounds implausible to me)

Third is there ar gameplay reason? But having a worse AT weapon with smaler range and better AT weapon with biger range, doenst seem to make sence.


Maybe Devs/Betatasters could have a look at this and consider a change. Thanks.


Okay either I need to open another thread or the two others, probably both....

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 18-08-2013, 15:08:02
I did (accidentally) look at the beta, but not at the faustpatrone. The Faustpatrone does 55 base damage and has material 315.


If we wanted to compare the faustpatrone with the panzerfaust 30, we would open common_server.zip and look under \Material at materialManagerDefine.con. Here we see material 310 is called "Rocket_Panzerfaust" and material 315 is called "Rocket_Bazooka_M9". This is just for checking the name really, the multiplier table is in materialManagerSettings.con. But since this file is very large, we can help ourselves by finding a target material in the define.con. Let's pick 80mm armour, since that's what the Sherman has on the front, if I recall correctly. So we look for "80mm" and find that "tank_80mm" is material 130.

Now we look in materialManagerSettings.con and search for "MaterialManager.createCell 310 130" This is the damage multiplier for material 310 (Rocket_Panzerfaust) against 130 (tank_80mm) and we see it is 15. That means it will do 15*55=825 hitpoints of damage. If we look at the Sherman's hitpoint we see that it's 750, so a panzerfaust 30 will kill a Sherman*. Now, will the faustpatrone do so too? Let' s search for "MaterialManager.createCell 315 130". We see now that MaterialManager.damageMod 10. 10*55=550 hitpoints. That's not enough to kill a Sherman with one shot to the front!

*; Because the Sherman is under the influence of the anglemod, this means you will only do this damage if the angle is between 0 and 30 (or something) from the norm. At higher angles, you will start to lose damage. Because 825 is only marginally more than 750, you will find that you don't need much of an angle to have the Sherman survive your shot.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 18-08-2013, 15:08:26
First thank you very much Lightning. Not only for the detailed information, but also für the explanation how to get it for myself next time!
Sure, no problem.

First is this based on a historical difference?

Second is there any phsical reason?

Third is there a gameplay reason?
As far as I can tell there is no historical or physical reason. Though I can really only find one primary source, it indicates the panzerfaust projectiles are all the same and all can penetrate 200mm of armour. Physically, HEAT projectiles should generally be independent on range and speed.

So is there a gameplay reason? Maybe. But most likely not. The panzerfaust 30 was added to the build over 5 years ago and weapon damage, especially damage done and taken by tanks is something that is constantly being revised and edited. There are a lot of developers and they all make their own changes. And you have to keep in mind that there are like 100 tanks and 50 or something projectiles that can damage tanks, so if a general revision is made, there are so many different combinations, that it is impossible to test them all. Add anglemod and poor collision models to the mix and you've got something that's more or less impossible to test. It isn't until months of public gameplay with hundreds of players that clear patterns will emerge. Most likely, I think, is that it's an oversight. According to the revision log, the panzerfaust damage was reduced from 100 to 55 four years ago during a revision of the tank damage values. It hasn't been changed since, while I'm quite sure other things have changed. The panzerfaust 60 and 100 were added much later, 3 years ago, and likely have had their damage values set independently.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 15:08:35
So if I understand this correctly the reason for the Faust30 not killing Shermans to the front is the angle of the armor.
Or I am just haluzinating/talking bullshit and the 30 is actually destroying Shermans to the front.
I honestly have to say that I am very sure that a 30 is not killing a Sherman when fired at directly (not from a roof minimizing the angle etc.).

So IMO the three question of my last post are not quite answerd. I think the penetration of 200mm should enable all Panzerfausts to kill a Sherman to the front. (Exept if there are historical/physical/gameplay issues)
IMO the data kindly presented by Lightnig shows who the difference Ingame is implemented, but I fails to see why the difference in damage is Ingame in the first place. Meaning why the 30 and the 60/100 deal different ammounts of damage, when compared to historical/physical/gameplay facts or concerns.

EDIT: so apparantly this is an issue concerning testing and the development of the mod. Thank you Lighting for those insights.

I suggest to raise the damage of the Faust 30 and make it equal to those of the 60/100. I hope I have shown why I think so and would like to hear concerns.

EDIT: I think it might be at least worth while to implement Fausts with equally high damage in the Beta and have a look if it seems to work.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 18-08-2013, 15:08:09
I seem to remember Kev saying that it was intentional so that you need to sneak around more with the Panzerfaust 30.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 18-08-2013, 16:08:30
I seem to remember Kev saying that it was intentional so that you need to sneak around more with the Panzerfaust 30.

But that doesn't really make any sense doesn't it? I mean it already has smaller range, meaning you have to sneak around more with it anyway.

Well, thanks for the insights in the dev process, it really is nice to hear things are constantly being revised and improved. Of course with such a small dev team and so much content that needs to be changed, errors are likely to sneak in...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 16:08:09
Aha a wild gameplay issue appears, interesting.

I have to say I find it to be irritating to have a weaker AT weapon on Normandy maps where it is often harder to get close to a tank, while on the Bulge and Germany maps its often easier to get close to them, because of the forests (Eppeldorf, Bastogne, Hürtgen, Meuse Riverline - to some extend).

Sure there are many hedgerows on Normandy maps, but I think forest is still the way better to approach a tank. Cover in terms of visibility is better or almost just as good. Also a hegerow mostly only provides cover from two distinct directions, whereas forest provides universal cover.

Also IMO the historical facts should be of a higher status, but this of course is again really only my opinion.

Isn't the added "sneakyness" already in the 30 with its way worse range which forces you to sneak closer to a tank. What also contributes to the player having to get way closer therefore being more sneaky is the slower projectile speed of the 30. It makes it quite harder to place a sure shot on a tank, especially when its moving.

EDIT: So now my post is totally overshadowed by LuckyOnes, because mine is just longer....saying the same. Thank you Lucky I wanted my attention and get famous you ruined everything...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 18-08-2013, 16:08:49
So if I understand this correctly the reason for the Faust30 not killing Shermans to the front is the angle of the armor.
Or I am just haluzinating/talking bullshit and the 30 is actually destroying Shermans to the front.
It's the angle of the impact.

But now things get complicated. What is a Sherman? Here's a list of Shermans in the mod, their frontal armour and their hitpoints and whether or not a panzerfaust 30 can kill it in one shot to the front at an angle 0 degrees from the norm.

Great Britain:

Name: m4a1early_eu_brit
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1mid_eu_brit
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_mid / sherman_v_mid_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_late / sherman_v_late_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 90mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_v_late_alt / sherman_v_late_alt_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_vc_early / sherman_vc_early_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: sherman_vc_late / sherman_vc_late_olive
Upper Front Hull Armour: 90mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

US Shermans (and British African)

Name: m4a1_early
Upper Front Hull Armour: 70mm
Hitpoints: 750
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: yes

Name: m4a1
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 750
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: yes

Name: m4a1early_eu
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1mid_eu
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a1_76mm
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_76 / m4a3_76_win / m4a3_76_win_alt
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_105
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 80mm
Hitpoints: 1000
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3e2_jumbo75 / m4a3e2_jumbo75_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 130mm (?)
Hitpoints: 1425
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

Name: m4a3e2_jumbo76 / m4a3e2_jumbo76_win
Upper Front Hull Armour: 130mm (?)
Hitpoints: 1425
1 shot Pzfst30 kill: No

So it seems, unfortunately, I picked one of the two Shermans out of a total of 27 which the panzerfaust 30 is able to penetrate. These are both African Shermans, I think, so they would never encounter a panzerfaust. So yes, you are completely right. You cannot kill a Sherman with a panzerfaust 30 from the front, whatever the angle.

Why are Shermans coded like this, with different front armours and different hitpoints? No idea. Probably for the same reason the panzerfaust 30 has a different penetration from the 60 and 100.


The argument that coding a weapon intentionally weak so it forces you to sneak is a very weak one in my opinion, especially considering the range of it is 30 metres, so you are going to have to sneak no matter what. Also, I should note that according to the revision logs, Kev hasn't ever changed the damage the panzerfaust 30 does.

In my opinion, the panzerfaust 30 base damage should be increased to 90, so it is the same as the 60 and 100.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 18-08-2013, 16:08:53
But then we would have to add more damage(and/or accuracy) for Zooks because those things (and to lesser extent Panzerschrek) are more like rocket-shotguns, and their damage is quite lame blah blah blah.
While I would love to have more historical accuracy, I think it would mess with the fine gameplay we have/had until now, I guess we have to have some limited trade-offs.(ok we don't but it would mess up the game)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 16:08:39
I still fail to see how this pretty small and relativly easy to accomplish change in the 30 would break gameplay. I think it wouldn't affect the gameplay too much, but provide us with a somewhat higher degree of historical accuracy.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 18-08-2013, 16:08:36
Why are Shermans coded like this, with different front armours and different hitpoints? No idea. Probably for the same reason the panzerfaust 30 has a different penetration from the 60 and 100.

The hitpoints are more or less consistent. There could be some refinement about the armor thicknesses but it's more or less the proper value.
Except the Jumbo is underated, it deserves a 140 or 150mm.  >:(  :P
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 18-08-2013, 16:08:37

The argument that coding a weapon intentionally weak so it forces you to sneak is a very weak one in my opinion, especially considering the range of it is 30 metres, so you are going to have to sneak no matter what. Also, I should note that according to the revision logs, Kev hasn't ever changed the damage the panzerfaust 30 does.

In my opinion, the panzerfaust 30 base damage should be increased to 90, so it is the same as the 60 and 100.

Wow this is exactly what I wished to hear. Maybe some Dev/Betatester could bring the arguments and conclusion of this discussion into the internal forum. Thank you.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 18-08-2013, 17:08:11

The argument that coding a weapon intentionally weak so it forces you to sneak is a very weak one in my opinion [...]

Fully agreed! The general player reaction is not "Oh hey great, I have to sneak around more."
It is more like "why does the Panzerfaust not work - what is wrong here?" and leads to lots of frustration.

Yes, historical accuracy makes for more challenging gameplay, but if that gameplay and its elements follow a consistent logic (as in: "generally remember what you know from real life data, and you shall succeed"), it motivates players to try harder, train and keep playing.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 18-08-2013, 17:08:11
Yeah? Then make Zooka/Sherman 75 one-shot-kill Panthers from the side, sit back and watch the forums.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 18-08-2013, 17:08:35
So what do you want to explain with this ? The slight curve at the exit point on left ? The basic balance of forces easily explains this, you don't need any other theory. And anyway it's the bloody EXIT point, who cares about the way the round exits, your point is all about it should penetrate with a turning round !
My point is the shell travels less distance than what trigonometric calculation would give. And I don't think I need to write an article to explain that's what happened in the photo. And for the "positive normalization"? The curve should bend to the opposite side if that's the case.

The theory discussion is really getting nowhere. If you still think it's reasonable for the thin APC armor to deflect a 75mm+ AP shell, try find a supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 18-08-2013, 17:08:03

The argument that coding a weapon intentionally weak so it forces you to sneak is a very weak one in my opinion, especially considering the range of it is 30 metres, so you are going to have to sneak no matter what. Also, I should note that according to the revision logs, Kev hasn't ever changed the damage the panzerfaust 30 does.

In my opinion, the panzerfaust 30 base damage should be increased to 90, so it is the same as the 60 and 100.

Wow this is exactly what I wished to hear. Maybe some Dev/Betatester could bring the arguments and conclusion of this discussion into the internal forum. Thank you.

We are allready on it and there is a lot of stuff being done atm. Good things are on their way.  :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 18-08-2013, 17:08:17
There was a change to the handheld AT weapons in july 2009, which set the damage to 55 for bazooka, panzerfaust 30, panzerschreck and piat, as a part of a whole new tank damage model.
I feel too like this is too simple and we should try some adjustments there to reflect the differences of those weapons more, but of course these settings are in use since some time now, changes there might lead to other imbalances and even more problems than a weak panzerfaust 30m. But as long as we adjust between 55 and 90, it should be ok I guess, especially the one shot panzerfaust should not be weakened.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 18-08-2013, 17:08:57
The curve should bend to the opposite side if that's the case.
So you absolutely want to be right but you don't have a clue about the way things work right ?
First you claim a shell would magically turn on impact to be more effective against slopped armor, now you tell me that if it doesn't it should turn toward the steel plate on exit ?

Ever tried to pull your finger through some air ? You can easily.
Then try pulling it through some steel ...

Now have a look at the drawing (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5t6OtMwROM4/UWMbO0k46pI/AAAAAAAAAAM/lZG2CfFVUOA/s320/pen+AP+easy.png) published on the website Lightning linked, have a look on how the forces influence the trajectory of the round (red arrows) and extrapolate for the exit point of a shell that penetrated. If you still can't understand, I'm afraid nobody can help you.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Erwin on 18-08-2013, 21:08:32
For me, Panzerschreck having less damage than Bazooka is ridiculous even if it is for balancing purposes. At least foot infantry should get true power of their AT weapons, because it's not easy to get close to a tank. After you can't kill a tank with 2 shots from a Panzerschreck, you get frustrated. I mean I work my ass off, dealing with enemy infantry and the tank to get close and bam, I fire my handheld AT, only to get blasted away with an HE shell because it can't kill a tank from point blank range.  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 18-08-2013, 23:08:02
Not mentioning the fact that Panzershreck could destroy every tank in WWII in reality...  ::)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 19-08-2013, 00:08:37
Hey guys it was already mentioned by Shitmaker in this threat that the Panzerschreck in the current internal Beta is able to one shot Shermans again.

Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: kingtiger1891 on 19-08-2013, 00:08:05
First you claim a shell would magically turn on impact to be more effective against slopped armor, now you tell me that if it doesn't it should turn toward the steel plate on exit ?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5t6OtMwROM4/UWMbO0k46pI/AAAAAAAAAAM/lZG2CfFVUOA/s320/pen+AP+easy.png)

Just choose from one of the two answers: Does their so called "actual way of AP", blue curve, bend up or down? Up or down?

And again this is not what I tell you, it's what you should have seen in the pic by yourself.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Strat_84 on 19-08-2013, 12:08:26
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5t6OtMwROM4/UWMbO0k46pI/AAAAAAAAAAM/lZG2CfFVUOA/s320/pen+AP+easy.png)

Just choose from one of the two answers: Does their so called "actual way of AP", blue curve, bend up or down? Up or down?

And again this is not what I tell you, it's what you should have seen in the pic by yourself.

It bends up WHEN the DOWN SIDE of the shell is in contact with STEEL (important forces) while most of the UP SIDE of the shell sustains only the resistance of the AIR (almost nothing).

If the shell penetrates, the DOWN SIDE of the shell will finally get OUT OF THE STEEL, while the UP SIDE of the shell will still face FULL STEEL RESISTANCE, thus reversing the balance of the forces you have at the entry point. The shell will tend to turn DOWNWARDS.
Follow with your finger when reading please.

And BTW, I asked you to look at the forces and momentums on that drawing, not the "trajectories". They both give an idea of what happens at the entry point but they are more or less false regarding the actual travel of a round inside the armor.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 19-08-2013, 13:08:55
Yeah, quuite frankly that pic looks like bollocks to me. Isn't there even a law that stuff goes the way of least resistance? I see no reason for that round to suddenly burrow down into the steel.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kalkalash on 19-08-2013, 15:08:04
The resistance goes for electricity only afaik. I guess the whole idea in that theory is that the bottom part has more friction than the top part, thus turning the shell slightly more upwards on entering and on exiting, it's the top part that has more friction which then turns the shell more horizontal.

I don't think that's how it actually works though, considering how the shell gets deformed on impact and any change in direction would be very minimal. Also, all pictures I've seen of penetrations have straight holes.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: F.E.Glöckner on 19-08-2013, 17:08:50
Yeah? Then make Zooka/Sherman 75 one-shot-kill Panthers from the side, sit back and watch the forums.
No Problem, if the Panther 1s1k every Sherman to the front :3
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Musti on 19-08-2013, 19:08:23
Yeah? Then make Zooka/Sherman 75 one-shot-kill Panthers from the side, sit back and watch the forums.
No Problem, if the Panther 1s1k every Sherman to the front :3
See, I would be happy with that myself, by all means please do that, the problem is the whining and crying (especially from newbie derps),would be unbearable I bet. And that probably would break gameplay on quite a few maps.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 19-08-2013, 21:08:31
As we speak a crack team of dev and testers are making your tanking even more enjoyable.
Expect interesting features as

- Ability to catch enemy tank shells and throw them back for exploding laughs and giggles
- Fire explosive sharks with whizzy sounds
- Last stand .. fire one more 105 MM before exploding in a great ball fire. Works even if you don't have 105 MM shells
- Laughs gas will cause bollocks and other frolocks, wreck heavy giggles on the enemy team
 - .... and more !!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 19-08-2013, 21:08:50
I believe a T34 tank that farts out molotovs. ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 19-08-2013, 21:08:13
As we speak a crack team of dev and testers are making your tanking even more enjoyable.
Expect interesting features as

- Ability to catch enemy tank shells and throw them back for exploding laughs and giggles
- Fire explosive sharks with whizzy sounds
- Last stand .. fire one more 105 MM before exploding in a great ball fire. Works even if you don't have 105 MM shells
- Laughs gas will cause bollocks and other frolocks, wreck heavy giggles on the enemy team
 - .... and more !!

Hidden messages?  :o
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 19-08-2013, 22:08:23
As we speak a crack team of dev and testers are making your tanking even more enjoyable.
Expect interesting features as

- Ability to catch enemy tank shells and throw them back for exploding laughs and giggles
- Fire explosive sharks with whizzy sounds
- Last stand .. fire one more 105 MM before exploding in a great ball fire. Works even if you don't have 105 MM shells
- Laughs gas will cause bollocks and other frolocks, wreck heavy giggles on the enemy team
 - .... and more !!

Hidden messages?  :o

Indeed, see those bold printed letters.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 19-08-2013, 22:08:14
As we speak a crack team of dev and testers are making your tanking even more enjoyable.
Expect interesting features as

- Ability to catch enemy tank shells and throw them back for exploding laughs and giggles
- Fire explosive sharks with whizzy sounds
- Last stand .. fire one more 105 MM before exploding in a great ball fire. Works even if you don't have 105 MM shells
- Laughing gas will cause bollocks and other frolocks, wreck heavy giggles on the enemy team
 - .... and more !!

Fixed

Title: Re: Mod dead already?
Post by: jackson on 30-08-2013, 02:08:09
sorry for question but PR 1.0 its finall version? No more new releases?

No new releases but they will keep updating it as long as there are players.
Hi what another mod(BF2) is yet popular like a FH and PR?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 30-08-2013, 02:08:51
sorry for question but PR 1.0 its finall version? No more new releases?

No new releases but they will keep updating it as long as there are players.
Hi what another mod(BF2) is yet popular like a FH and PR?

I hear about a Point of Existence 2 mod every now and then so that has to count for something. Alpha Project is becoming more and more popular, not sure if they've released yet though.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 30-08-2013, 11:08:56
There is a new version for alpha project available:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/alpha-project2/downloads/alpha-project-v021-patch

Point of Existence was pretty disapointing for me tbh. Better go with Operation Peacekeeper if you want to have something similar and there will be also a new version available in the near future. The maps in PoE are quite nice though, but the gameplay is wierd.

And AIX is a very good mod. But I don't know how many people still play it as it was more a sinpgleplayer/coop mod.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jackson on 31-08-2013, 15:08:50
so, now FH and PR is only active?

"VBIOS #1 Real War" server - its a PRmod?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 31-08-2013, 16:08:40
so, now FH and PR is only active?

"VBIOS #1 Real War" server - its a PRmod?
I played Alpha Project with some french guy, yesterday. It was 1 vs 1 but still fun.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Excavus on 30-09-2013, 03:09:11
Bump. Mod's dead I assume. Last real update was on June 12th. What is going on?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 30-09-2013, 04:09:27
Work is going on, that's what.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 04:09:49
Bump. Mod's dead I assume. Last real update was on June 12th. What is going on?

As you seem to be too lazy to read this forum I will quote for you:

It was not just a summer break, things been literally dead for several months, not only for the summer. But now people are getting that much needed injection of motivation (not to mention all that precious time needed for such projects) to get the work done for next release. Mind you, next release is still a long way ahead but now at least there seems to be a future, which you couldnt say the same few months back.

Yes, we are back on track and some of the stuff that is being worked on would blow your entire mind.

Development is progressing, but mostly depended on the amount of resources available.

Several testers amnd some devs have confirmed that development...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 30-09-2013, 04:09:30
Don't forget that they might take another break in a month or two like last year. They didn't even wish us happy new year in a news post, way to break tradition.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Surfbird on 30-09-2013, 13:09:00
Might seem kinda awkward I bring this up as I can't judge the situation properly, but what I noticed lately is that there has been a big "distance" between the developers and the FH2 player base. I don't mean that there are no updates and stuff, I mean that nobody outside the team could really estimate what the situation is like. Then it came apparent that you have a significant lack of active developers and I just wonder why there is so few communication with the community in terms of developement support.

I remember 1 call to developement support from azreal, over a year ago but that's it. You mentioned that you mainly miss people that are able to do coding in some post lately while most people thought it's the maps that are unfinished (having Knockhoffs map preview in mind that stopped at some point for example).

So generally, looking at the situation, I would have expected the dev team to be a lot more open for support or at least communicate more with the community in order to inspire people to help working on the mod.

Of course you have your high standards for your work, but getting new people into it would be a start, even when they have to learn or can only contribute very little. It might only be a few candidates out there, but who knows if there are people interested in supporting and possibly skilled to do it when nobody asks for it?

I don't want to aggressively criticize here, it's just something that would make sense to me. You say the situation is less desperate now and I obviously have no clue what is actually going on, but to me it always seemed a bit like you either don't want or don't need any kind of help for a long time and it might seem similar to potentially skilled and interested people.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 14:09:08
All you guys do is being worried, yet no one eager to help. All of you can apply for a beta tester or even become a dev if you only have skills in BF2 engine codding, moddeling or mapping and have will to help this mod.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Krätzer on 30-09-2013, 14:09:39
It´s going on. What shall we do, if we haven´t any Renders to show?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 30-09-2013, 14:09:26
I have mixed feelings about this. I am not totaly satisfied how the devs are communicating certain things with the community and that's a point where I see room for improvements.

But on the other hand I have to second Jan about this point. We even wrote in this very threat what is needed the most. So if you have any of those mentioned skills like mapping, modelling or coding (everything else is welcome too) and that stuff you are free to apply. Nothing is holding you back.

That's atleast how I did it. I got beta tester like one year ago and I recently started helping out where I could. Nobody asked me for it.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: AfterDune on 30-09-2013, 15:09:04
It's kinda hard to share what you're working on when it's about;
a) maps you don't want the public to know about yet
b) vehicles you don't want the public to know about yet
c) vehicle coding which isn't interesting
d) python coding which isn't very interesting
e) other stuff that basically comes down to a-d :p

But anyways, it's nice to know that things are moving again :).
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Hjaldrgud on 30-09-2013, 15:09:59
It's kinda hard to share what you're working on when it's about;
a) maps you don't want the public to know about yet
b) vehicles you don't want the public to know about yet
c) vehicle coding which isn't interesting
d) python coding which isn't very interesting
e) other stuff that basically comes down to a-d :p

But anyways, it's nice to know that things are moving again :).
Soviet player models then!  :D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 15:09:14
What I strongly suggest to all impatient guys here with some free time twice a week, ability to keep "secrets" and love to FH2 is applying for a beta tester position. It gives you some knowlegde about FH2 progress and possibly will encourage you to start work on this mod taking good direction from the beggining of your work. It might be hard to apply to be a dev "blindly". We need beta testers to properly test new maps and there is a lot to test, believe me ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 30-09-2013, 15:09:09
Afterdune, once more: when you have any of the skills allready mentioned in this threat or skills regarding to the points in your post, you are free to apply for helping the devs. What difference does it make to know wich map needs to be worked on? Or which vehicle or what ever?

Really, apply and then you will see wich task you can pick up.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 30-09-2013, 15:09:47
c) vehicle coding which isn't interesting
d) python coding which isn't very interesting
I have to disagree, vehicle and python coding is interesting. I mean, aside from the moments when it takes days to get something to work properly or when your PC crashes and you lose all your work. It can be a legitimate art form though!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: AfterDune on 30-09-2013, 16:09:44
Afterdune, once more: when you have any of the skills allready mentioned in this threat or skills regarding to the points in your post, you are free to apply for helping the devs. What difference does it make to know wich map needs to be worked on? Or which vehicle or what ever?

Really, apply and then you will see wich task you can pick up.
Huh? Have you even read what I posted? I'm not asking for anything, I'm stating that in many cases it's not very interesting from a developer's perspective to post updates about what they're doing. Trust me, I know all about it.

If I had more time, I would certainly apply, but my time is very limited and is already spent on developing PR and such.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Surfbird on 30-09-2013, 17:09:39
My point does not aim towards sharing content.

I just wanted to state that I would have thought that there is a different behaviour when there is a lack of devs. I know you are free to apply. I just wanted to point out that it's maybe a very defensive way to deal with a lack of developers when you just wait for people to apply. When there are some official announcements/threads that bring up this topic to the community, more people might actually feel like joining the team or start investing their free time in how to mod BF2/FH2.

I don't intend to be offensive in any way with this. I just realized I could only guess that the situation in the developement is not looking good until comments were left about it in this topic. When there was the "Call to Arms" regarding the ArmyRage stealing content from FH2 a lot of people did what they could to help with that, even when it was little. When there is need for developers a similar topic might also mobilize people that know how to mod or that want to learn it.

So my point is about advertising the situation. People are more likely to support when you ask for it. I can not judge in what extend this is needed currently and how stable the plan is, but I just want to spotlight that doing so in certain situations is not a bad idea. People that might actually have the skills can feel redundant or not sign up for whatever reason until they are aware of what is needed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 30-09-2013, 17:09:03
"Communication Breakdown, It's always the same,
I'm having a nervous breakdown, Drive me insane! "


Led Zeppelin - Communication Breakdown


 I think the time for secrets has ran its course.

 Its always the same responses. "Cant discuss this, not enough that". Any questions turns into a shit throwing contest.

 Fh2 needs to be more open to the community about what is going on to incite skilled public players to become as Jan puts it..." eager to help"

 The last communication with the community was a news update (6-12-13) about the Polikarpov Po-2. Almost 4 months.

 Most of us are just fans of the mod. Most are not interested in working on it.

 The Dev diaries were awesome. That is an example of what i'm talking about.
 Jan rubbing a hand full of bullshit in the face of the community is NOT what i'm talking about.



 If i'm a fan of a car, do i have to build the damn thing before i can drive it?

Da da dada da doo doo
They don't know
Nobody knows
They don't know
Just don't know
Da da da


Jimi Hendrix - "Who Knows"

 
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 18:09:03
Jan rubbing a hand full of bullshit in the face of the community is NOT what i'm talking about.

All I said is that WE NEED MORE BETA TESTERS, what is bullshit about it? We are too few to even bring you news updates because nobody will waste precious time to create renders etc when there are only few active people on the team (I'm not sure how many developers are there left but only about 10 testers actively participate in sessions, we were never so low on human power). There is NOTHING to show to community in current state because of WIP status but that doesn't mean there's nothing being worked on. If you're not interesting in help, enjoy what you have now because it will take a long time to finnish next patch without more ppl on board. How fucking selfish can you be?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Turkish007 on 30-09-2013, 20:09:01
So anyone can apply? I'm not gonna, but you know, just asking to make all clear.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 30-09-2013, 20:09:03
That's it, enough bitching. I will take some screenshots for you...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Excavus on 30-09-2013, 20:09:23
Ts4EVER, your attitude on this sickens me and many fans around the world. The fact that we have to coax this out of you makes no sense, it should be automatic. All you have to do is tell us what you are working on more often. There is no need for official news updates with fancy renders. Just take a picture of your work and post it in a dev blog, you'd be doing the fans a service and giving much needed morale boost.

When people stumble upon this mod and see that it looks awesome, then they see the last time it was updated was 4 months ago, they think "oh it must be dead, move along." I really love this mod, I do, and I would help if I could, but as for now, a little more activity would do wonders.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 30-09-2013, 20:09:05
Well, I'd be happy with just a dev blog with some sneak peak screens (could be those that spark random conspiracies too  ;D) and a "what we plan to do next" list.

Still, remember guys that the developers of this mod are actually one of the most active modders around, even in terms of news updates. For many mods it takes years to hear any news and then suddenly there's a big update, and silence for another few years after that...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 20:09:57
So anyone can apply? I'm not gonna, but you know, just asking to make all clear.

Basically, annyone can apply but it will be verified in someway if you're the right person. There are some requirements for beta testers like activity and conscientiousness. Test sessions are being held twice a week on thursdays and sundays at 19:00 GMT and tester should be able to join at least one of these every week. Most common problem with testers is them being a flash in the pan. Many new guys appear on first few test sessions get bored and dissapear (we have more than 150 members on internal forum but very little amount of them is active or show up on regular basis). You need to know that testing isn't really cool and fun all the time. If you never worked on the mod, you will be surprised how bugged and problematic some things can be (one little change can create 5 new bugs). New forum members will have more problems with being accepted to the team because we need trustworthy and experienced players with good understanding of how refractor engine works. Ofcourse it isn't needed to have specialized knowledge and modding expierence, although this can always be useful. Not all applications are accepted because it is also quite risky to take people you don't know to internal team as they for example can leak some info about the development here what is strictly forbidden (only developers can decide about their work being revealed to public) but there are some detailed instructions about how all of it works on internal forum.

Anyway, IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED IN JOINING THE BETA TEST TEAM, FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME VIA PM. I will provide you some more details and usefull info and hopefully help in any way. If you will be good candidate I will be happy to bring your case internal and we will see what ce be done about it.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kalkalash on 30-09-2013, 20:09:16
Everyone who has ever worked on a mod knows that there is nothing more annoying than people constantly begging updates. Well guess what, that doesn't make the progress any faster. The next patch will come when it's finished and not any sooner. In fact, constantly trying to please you folk they have to waste time on posting pointless images and devblogs, which then at worst case scenario moves the next patch further.

So stop feeling so fucking privileged, you're acting like children.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 21:09:00
So stop feeling so fucking privileged, you're acting like children.
This.

It makes me sad how it's getting worse and worse all the time. Even experienced forumers are bitching these days like they never saw update breakes before. I won't repeat myself again. You want more updates and faster progress - apply to beta/dev team, it's the only way. If you're not interesting in it, accept what you get so far from FH2 and enjoy it!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 30-09-2013, 21:09:42
How can you test if map is balanced and how will be played in 10 players?  ???
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-09-2013, 21:09:05
We're testing many other things now and don't forget that there were more testers in the past. Balance is indeed problem but it's still better than releasing your map to a tournament hoping that it will work because of advanced team play, Kwiot Mudzin.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Mudzin on 30-09-2013, 21:09:01
I don't know what you're talking about...

Back to the topic, I know that map should be tested to find any bugs, like glitches, floating objects, etc. But I think you must do sth, because in the last patch, even though these new maps look great, the gameplay issue is really bad...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: x4fun ODIUM on 30-09-2013, 21:09:34
Kwiot Mudzin.

I lol'd. Don't unveil his identity! It's secret!!!

And remember, Kwiot is not Peiper! And also not Kwiatkowski ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 30-09-2013, 21:09:54
All you have to do is tell us what you are working on more often. There is no need for official news updates with fancy renders.
Problem is, I can only tell you this: we (I'm not a dev, but only a BT) are currently working on
- (severe) bugs present in current version of the mod
- new maps
- new vehicles

And that's it. When I would tell eberything, and then it won['t be in the next patch, everyone will be like "What?!? And ypu promised us this and that!!!" and shitsorms like that. It's because of that, that there is a little secrecy.

When people stumble upon this mod and see that it looks awesome, then they see the last time it was updated was 4 months ago, they think "oh it must be dead, move along."
Well, the those people should dig into mods a little deeper, because then they would see what has been posted here already: many, many mods have no updates for years. This is still an active mod and you can see that (I'm sorry I have to repeat myself but apprently people simpl,y barge in here and don't bother to actually read the content of thsi thread) because:
- everyday people play this mod. Dead mods don't get played.
- everyday there are new posts on this forum. Dead mods don't have posting members of the community.

Also, when those people are able to check the news updates, they can also click on to this forum and see that the latest post was one minute ago.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Excavus on 30-09-2013, 22:09:03
All you have to do is tell us what you are working on more often. There is no need for official news updates with fancy renders.
Problem is, I can only tell you this: we (I'm not a dev, but only a BT) are currently working on
- (severe) bugs present in current version of the mod
- new maps
- new vehicles

And that's it. When I would tell eberything, and then it won['t be in the next patch, everyone will be like "What?!? And ypu promised us this and that!!!" and shitsorms like that. It's because of that, that there is a little secrecy.

PR does this all the time, I don't see anyone complaining.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Korsakov829 on 30-09-2013, 22:09:57
Fuck PR and FH2 comparisons.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 01-10-2013, 09:10:42
The only suitable comparison to be made between PR and FH2 is that PR's community gets it. For the most part, they get that development takes a lot of time, and people wait for updates paitiently (cue paitient bear).

And on the other hand, FH2's community has annoying people (you know who you are) who just don't get it. These are people that don't get that the devs have their own lives, and this is their hobby. And everyone knows it can be easy to burn yourself out on a hobby if it becomes a chore (which is what happens I'd imagine when you get constantly pressured for updates). It's like these people expect the devs to be serving them, as if they're paying the devs wages. But the mod is free. Everyone complaining needs to shut the fuck up and just wait, or help out. You want regular WW2 related development updates? Follow Traction Wars or Festung Europa or something and stop trying to force a square through a circle, because you're only making it shit for all of us.

(http://files.myopera.com/JanetB/albums/1478531/Patient%20Bear.jpeg)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 01-10-2013, 13:10:27
It's not about who gets what.

There is a Public Relation policy which says don't show until it is finished. Now sometimes somebody makes an exception like The road to Prokhorovka Part.
If it were up to me there would be no secrets and just throw it in the open what is being worked on right now.
If things don't get in the next patch even though there were shown in an update, they will come in another patch or maybe never.
That fact of life, that not all development makes it to the final cut, should not the main reason preventing you to show something.

Anyway there is some good stuff being worked on right now. Hopefully it is game play ready soon.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 01-10-2013, 14:10:00
Fact is PR players spent more time playing the fucking mod than talking shit in the forums...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: AfterDune on 01-10-2013, 14:10:59
Meh, people talk a LOT on the PR forums too, it's pretty much the same thing there :).

We've had a very quiet period while developing PR v1.0 as well, where the community wasn't informed about updates, simply because development was very slow. This is due to real life commitments like education, jobs, partners, children, sickness, etc. or sometimes people just burn out and need some time to get that modding motivation back.

And if a couple of developers have that, there is nothing to let the public know other than "we're working on it". And then suddenly someone has a breakthrough, people get excited again and in no-time you're developing, fixing bugs, creating new features, mapping your ass off, etc.

I think FH2 is suffering (or has suffered) from such a thing. I think all mods go through something like this sooner or later, it's perfectly normal. After all, this isn't our job, it's our hobby.

I'm just glad to know that FH2 is still being worked on and wish the team all the best. We're all very excited about the new version and, like pretty much everyone else, cannot wait to get my hands on it :).
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 01-10-2013, 17:10:14
Im just curious how many FH2 devs are working on traction wars?  Is that the next thing after this?  Will they move on to a new engine?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 01-10-2013, 17:10:47
Kraetzer and Chad, I think? Chad at least is also working for FH2 as well as PR.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Krätzer on 01-10-2013, 19:10:12
I never worked on Traction thing.

I worked on Rising Storm for Red Orchestra 2.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: titsmcgee852 on 01-10-2013, 19:10:35
What did you model for Rising Storm? :D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Lightning on 01-10-2013, 19:10:52
Im just curious how many FH2 devs are working on traction wars?  Is that the next thing after this?  Will they move on to a new engine?
As far as I can tell from their staff page the only person who is a developer for both mods is Chad, but he does a lot of projects, including PR.

I don't know who started the rumour that traction wars has anything to do with Forgotten Hope. As far as I am concerned, the two mods have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hyperanthropos on 01-10-2013, 20:10:23
Exept the general approach. I can understand that you devs want to keep an absolute unique game. And of course FH will always be that.

But its far from unrealistic to compare the two projects. It really looks like they have much in common. Shared developers and a obviously shared fanbase are two strong indications.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 01-10-2013, 20:10:02
As far as I can tell from their staff page the only person who is a developer for both mods is Chad, but he does a lot of projects, including PR.

It really looks like they have much in common. Shared developers and a obviously shared fanbase are two strong indications.

Wut
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 01-10-2013, 21:10:07
I don't know who started the rumour that traction wars has anything to do with Forgotten Hope. As far as I am concerned, the two mods have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Yes they do! WW2. ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 01-10-2013, 21:10:00
@ development progress: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19310.0
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Sir Apple on 02-10-2013, 03:10:52
Im just curious how many FH2 devs are working on traction wars?

Chad and Schism-Rvtl.


Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Krätzer on 02-10-2013, 16:10:11
What did you model for Rising Storm? :D

For exsample the M1 Carbine.
And some statics.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Admiral Donutz on 02-10-2013, 22:10:14
I'm glad that progress isn't THAT fast, atleast it gives me time to catch up somewhere in 2014 or so (when I hope to have a new rig that can run FH2 again, currently I have to make do with a crappy laptop and a small rental house so there wouldn't even be room for a PC if I had the money). ;) 
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 02-10-2013, 22:10:31
Glad you could make your reapperance Dontuz. Now get back to your cellar and finish that Arnhem map.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 03-10-2013, 20:10:23
And another blast from the past  ;D

Curious when Lobo or jumjum will make their reappearances.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Admiral Donutz on 03-10-2013, 22:10:04
Lobo went AWOL? :( JumJum might be a lost case aswell...
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kubador on 04-10-2013, 00:10:37
I'm still waiting for realbadseed.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Wilhelm on 04-10-2013, 01:10:25
Glad you could make your reapperance Dontuz. Now get back to your cellar and finish that Arnhem map.

I was just thinking about Donutz' Arnhem assets and map idea the other day while watching 'Theirs is the Glory."

 ;D

I hope you still have all your Arnhem stuff, Donutz! :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Roughbeak on 04-10-2013, 04:10:04
Don't try to kill us, beta testers... ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Thorondor123 on 11-10-2013, 19:10:10
Lobo went AWOL? :( JumJum might be a lost case aswell...
To be honest you were AWOL longer than Lobo has been..! And Jumjum IIRC. ;D
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Admiral Donutz on 11-10-2013, 19:10:16
Glad you could make your reapperance Dontuz. Now get back to your cellar and finish that Arnhem map.

I was just thinking about Donutz' Arnhem assets and map idea the other day while watching 'Theirs is the Glory."

 ;D

I hope you still have all your Arnhem stuff, Donutz! :)
I do, and I collected more material too ( archieven.nl uploaded a whole load of new pictures, maps etc. including a bunch of blueprints of the bridge -which I already had obtained from other sources such as the ministery/department of public works- ).

http://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?miadt=37&mizig=284&miview=gal1&milang=nl&micols=3&mires=0&mizk_alle=rijnbrug&miej=1945

(at one of those pages are some blueprints aswell)

For now I'll just keep on collecting material, and probably build everything in Revit on High Resolution to export a low res to FH 4.0 in 10 years from now. :p

I bet Lobo missed being knived by me and others, got into a depression and went AWOL. :(  In 2014 I'll buy a new rig and get back into gaming (have to find a place to put the damn rig too, my small rental house has no room for a desk).
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Fuchs on 11-10-2013, 21:10:13
Replace your bed with a desk and sleep in a chair!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Hockeywarrior on 15-10-2013, 03:10:20
And another blast from the past  ;D

Curious when Lobo or jumjum will make their reappearances.
Oh god those ARE names from the past. So is mine, but hardly anywhere as legendary. I'm posting again for the first time in a loooong time. I noticed there hasn't been an update in some months and I have to say I'm a bit worried.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 15-10-2013, 11:10:17
Because there was a long break in development sometime ago but you have nothing to worry about. There weren't many things ready to show you but development is moving forward now and it's going in to right direction! Last dev blog entry shows you a tiny part of what's being worked on! ;)

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19310.0 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19310.0)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 15-10-2013, 13:10:29
Hi hockeywarrior! Don't worry man, devteam has something nice in store for you! (And everyone else too, of course ;))

Make sure you are prepared to join the battles when it's ready, so go on a server some nights and get back into the fight! :)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Meadow on 16-10-2013, 00:10:34
And another blast from the past  ;D

Curious when Lobo or jumjum will make their reappearances.

I don't know if I'm a blast, but I'm from the past.

I've been following FHmod.org for months, well, in all the time I've been away. I'm looking forward to progress too.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 16-10-2013, 00:10:31
Did somebody read aloud from the Necronomicon around here lately?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 16-10-2013, 01:10:58
Did somebody read aloud from the Necronomicon around here lately?
oops!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: NTH on 16-10-2013, 12:10:44
Hi all.. I don't know if you remember me I posted a few days ago. Well it's good to be back again.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Fuchs on 16-10-2013, 13:10:57
I really missed Hockey's avatar.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Kelmola on 16-10-2013, 14:10:36
Did somebody read aloud from the Necronomicon around here lately?
Clatoo, verata, nicto!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Slayer on 16-10-2013, 19:10:18
How cool, all these old-timers posting, I love it. :) Thx Meadow!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Eat Uranium on 16-10-2013, 20:10:09
Next thing you know, the ridable wolves guy will be back.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Admiral Donutz on 17-10-2013, 21:10:43
And another blast from the past  ;D

Curious when Lobo or jumjum will make their reappearances.

I don't know if I'm a blast, but I'm from the past.

I've been following FHmod.org for months, well, in all the time I've been away. I'm looking forward to progress too.
I'll count you as a blast from the past aswell. :) Cheers!

Did somebody read aloud from the Necronomicon around here lately?
Indiana Jones!
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Hockeywarrior on 30-10-2013, 06:10:11
And another blast from the past  ;D

Curious when Lobo or jumjum will make their reappearances.

I don't know if I'm a blast, but I'm from the past.

I've been following FHmod.org for months, well, in all the time I've been away. I'm looking forward to progress too.
Ehrmahgherd it's Meadow! Definitely a blast from the past ... oh the Filefront forum days.

The latest update looks great. I love FH2 with every bone in my body and it's been too long since I have played. Is there still a populated server in the American evening? That's the main issue... I can only play on weekends when all the Euros are playing.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-10-2013, 10:10:05
@Hockeywarrior:

WAW guys are playing at least once a week, you can check this topic:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16791.825 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16791.825)

 ;)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Rawhide on 30-10-2013, 15:10:14
Someone has blown that giant seashell and here I am
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Hockeywarrior on 12-11-2013, 07:11:42
@Hockeywarrior:

WAW guys are playing at least once a week, you can check this topic:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16791.825 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16791.825)

 ;)
Thanks for the heads up! I'm definitely planning on logging some time this weekend if time permits. Lookout, teammates, for another rusty old FH player rejoining the ranks. Teamkills are going to happen.

Honestly I'd play all the time if only there were well populated servers in the evening during Eastern Standard Time.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: jan_kurator on 12-11-2013, 10:11:45
Honestly I'd play all the time if only there were well populated servers in the evening during Eastern Standard Time.
Populated them then! With such attitude there won't be any players. You can always seed server to find out will someone join you. It looks like nobody joins because nobody joined before them, server is empty and everybody is waiting for nothing in the end. It's a vicious circle!


You can always post here when you join, maybe it will attract some others: Going to Play FH2? (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=12901.0)
Maybe we can even use FH2's facebook fanpage to band together? FH2 on facebook (http://www.facebook.com/ForgottenHope2?fref=ts[/url)
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 12-11-2013, 12:11:00
Maybe a shout box in the forum would be good, to initiate quick games.
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: DaWorg! on 12-11-2013, 14:11:22
Maybe a shout box in the forum would be good, to initiate quick games.

This post is worth suggestions forum
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: Chad1992 on 12-11-2013, 23:11:20
Anybody know if vehicles will be made more powerful. By 'powerful' i mean will they be able to climb hills better?
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: LuckyOne on 12-11-2013, 23:11:08
Anybody know if vehicles will be made more powerful. By 'powerful' i mean will they be able to climb hills better?

Stop using them for things they weren't made for! :P

On a more serious note, have you guys had any success in fixing the reversing? Hanomags and many tanks get stuck because of that...

And if it's possible, a bit better turning ratio for tanks would be nice too, they seem to be too slow turning for tracked vehicles....
Title: Re: Development progress?
Post by: hitm4k3r on 13-11-2013, 13:11:21
We are taking a look at the problem of vehicles loosing their momentum. The problem I see with this is that it is difficult to reproduce or atleast difficult to reproduce on purpose.