Author Topic: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts  (Read 2789 times)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« on: 21-07-2010, 16:07:45 »
Here's my overall philosophy about SP

In my personal opinion, AI should no longer be seen as a training ground for playing online. Sure you could learn to fly better and bot pilots do fight similar to humans compared to other bots, sure you could learn to familiarize yourself with tanks, aiming etc, but then, the gameplay is so completely different, it must be said that SP/COOP is an alternative way of playing FH2

Whereas humans play essentially as a 'collective solo', sneaking and hiding, bots play more in the open as a group, with AT guns and mgs permanently manned to form defensive lines, infantry moving up against their target, relying as much on their numbers as their 'skill' and weapons to overwhelm the enemy.

I would actually say, SP/COOP plays more at peace with the layout of the map, and frankly more in line with what WW2 would have felt like... albeit, I'd want them to learn how to tea-bag just for shits and giggles

In the end, whereas CQ is totally based on skill of the player, SP/COOP, surely having this aspect with some rathe stubborn bots, is more of a show of logistics, with each armies war machine pit against the other and idealy playing according to history... But that's where the player comes in



The kind of work I want us to do in SP/COOP specifically is to give a complete alternative to the CQ scene. A reason why I specifically wanted to see Artillery firing at all times and at the limit of its range is to get the complete experience.

Bots, unlike humans don't care for their solo existence but being 'robots' they do as they are told, and what I'd want us to tell em is to do things as close to reality as the game would permit: Stuka's flying high and diving sharply,

Tank standing at range and blasting away with HE at Static defenses, mgs at infantry and AP at other tanks. Infantry would move, stopping only to take aim and fire, mgs proning at the limit of their range to give cover fire, getting up and moving in and doing it again.

AT infantry would move in more cautiously, dashing up to tanks and trying to take them out while their focus is else where. Aircrafts would strafe infantry and light vehicles and try to eliminate other fighters doing the same thing as well as clearing the skies of divebombers and such.

Scout vehicles would move in fast and cause havok on infantry formations and emplaced positions, engaging tanks only if there is the remotest chance of dealing damage to them, using their speed to get clear before it can retaliate

APCs will mechanize the infantry attack, them getting in for cover, getting out close to their
target while giving covering fire.

It always warms me when I see elderly people enjoying the game and I always wish our efforts meet thier particular preference - After all, it being WW2, being like me, CQ qould seem rather unsatisfactory in frequent play, and I can imagine its the same for them, and more so since I can imagine it being close to home

Some aspects I'd love to work better regarding this philosophy:
1/ Artillery firing at its full range
2/ More deadly strafing runs
3/ All units doing precisely what the commmander ordered, improving tactical play for humans
4/ Bots being able to obey players orders in totality, with players even able to get bots to follow them in the event an objective would best be capped by numbers...
5/ Bots being able to dash more
6/ Stukas steeper dip-diving
7/ Tanks perfected in thier motion: Firing from range HE as far as they would fire AP, and moving in once the target is eliminated or to get a better shot - This is partly there thanks to Leagion
8/ Bots using all mgs more, especially deployables, so players can set up mgs and have bots cover them while they move in, like they can for mortar
9/ Armored cars and scout cars focusing on Infantry as they should, and less on tanks
10/ Bots seeing a tank and instantly laying down a mine before engaging with something else
11/ One time use of smoke by tanks before agressively using HE or AP, and not using smoke on underpowered targets like APCs and light guns
12/ Light tanks not going toe to toe with heavier tanks but engaging them as they move fast to their own targets, or moving at in a radius around the heavy while engaging it rather than driving right up to it
13/ PZIIs engaging at range and not stopping in their fire as they do now
14/ Bots being more senstive to sound, especially for static guns
15/ AT riflemen using their guns at the limit of their range, like mgs, both to snipe and take out tanks, presenting themselves as small targets, perhaps not firing at heavy tanks at all
16/ Using AP mines when bots see enemy infantry in the exact same way they would AT mines
17/ Less tunnel vision
18/ Bots being biased to use more abundant weapons than scarce ones so bots think rifles are better against infantry than mgs and engineer kits against tanks than AT kits, for immersion
19/ A better communication system that can get bots taunting engaged enemy, audibly communicating across the battlefield
20/ Multiple speed on vehicles that allow mechanized forces to move in unision and speeding up either when engaged or when close to their target
21/ More balanced use of ordinance, with planes always flying, guns always manned and tanks at the rear always being brought to the fight so that the map layout and the vehicle's mechanics are more of a tactical factor than luck
22/ Commander AI that can tell his men to defend a key point on some maps without it having been under a threat first
23/ Commander being able to use artillery assets, perhaps at key points in a battle, and not because a flag is being capped
24/ Bot idling

What impresses me about what we have
1/ Bots use of the APC, especially the Hanomag, with bots fightnig in and around it
2/ Bots use of static guns
3/ Mortar use
4/ Plane handling
5/ Clivewill's AIX Stuka mechainics
6/ Planes dropping bombs
7/ The hope for artillery
8/ Infantry logic and range, save for any afore-mentioned gripe
9/ navmeshes, especially for newer maps
10/ The nebelwerfer
11/ Spotting
12/ Minimalized use of grenade launchers.. Once upon a time, you couldn't take cover without being hit with one for doing so
13/ Accuracy of bots - Quite cruel, but seemingly more 'realistic'than CQ


Maps that seem to bring these perfectly in are Totalize and alam Halfa and Purple Heart Lane, bringing out the beauty of the maps themselves
« Last Edit: 21-07-2010, 16:07:46 by djinn »

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #1 on: 23-07-2010, 03:07:03 »
Here's why I think none of this is going to happen outside of our community.  We are shunned not only in RTS community but in any game both designed for Multi player and Single player.  In the RTS community when you ask for a game to include pause, command and queue you're spat on by the multi player freaks and stoned for, "wasting developer resources".  In the end there is absolutely no reason why a video game developer or mod developer can't acquire and put resources to work in both areas.  The two have almost nothing to do with each other.  Totally different skill sets with different target audiences. 

The sad truth is most of these multi player gurus play 5-9 and look at us weekend warriors as a joke.  We are cannon fodder and they want us on their servers for target practice.  They are the elite because they can own us and they also know how to lick developer anus.  The truth is we are more in number and most often can barely afford a few hours a week to enjoy their mod let alone wet their backsides in forum thanking them for the honor of shooting us.

Personally most of my LAN parties I would much rather play Project Reality but because of the piss poor lack of single player support both inside and outside of the developer ranks we load up Forgotten Hope 2.  We are happy to do it because you guys keep the mod alive. Long after these knuckle heads move on to a bigger and better game you can basically keep up the good righteous work of keeping the mod alive off line in our LAN parties and on our dreaded stand alone machines.

I mean shit...when we get really bored we still play Bobot for Wolfenstein Enemy Territory that just this month released a new version of their mod.  We were overjoyed that the single player community is still making and updating a mod for a game that is over 7 years old and did not include the single player function.  In 7 years this FH2 mod that is still being developed mostly for multi player will be long dead and their developers developing yet another multi player game with little or no single player support....but we will still be playing their mod when ZERO servers are running and my 7 year old will be saying, “What the F is FH?”

Their time is temporary at best...your time is permanently etched in stone.

(It will be even more etched in stone if you can fudge a way to insert nose cam back into your single player mini-mod...my guys couldn't fly a plane to save their lives but this split screen nonsense have made the planes static objects that only bots can fly)

Offline Ts4EVER

  • Banner of THeTA0123
  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7.812
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #2 on: 23-07-2010, 08:07:35 »
You realise this is not some kind of Call of Duty "play game for a month then drop it for next one" community?

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #3 on: 23-07-2010, 11:07:04 »
I hear your concern DirAtillerySupport. I can't say I totally agree because I wouldn't really want the camera changed by the SP fan-modders as that will go right against another philosophy, the developers'.

I also think that our voices, once the unheard minority, is actually quite loud these days, and the devs are now seeing Sp as a factor to consider. It wasn't that they didn't give a rat's ass in the past, it's more that, development of the FH2 mod was always a slow process, especially with their numbers never quite being up to what is ideal, and their having an issue getting a permanent SP developer. Singleplayer was just not a priority as compared to just getting the game out...

Now though, I know they realise the sheer size of fans who are strictly SPers...

What I outlined frankly was more of what goes on in my head when I attack the Singleplayer work in FH2, the picture I have of where it should go, broken down into the various aspects of play


I'm of the belief that if vehicles work like they would in real life, if maps are laid out as they should be, and bots can use each vehicle and move on each map in the way they should, we should pretty much get any map that comes our way playing exactly as it should in real life, or closely so, on the basis of logistics alone... And that naturally, that would bring a tactical challenge to players that they can enjoy: Playing against the forces of the terrain, the weapons and vehicles they wqere pit against, with those they had on their side ... Given them a reason to play SP at all...

I am actually very hopeful for SP, but then.. I have been known to be rather quixotic :-)

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #4 on: 23-07-2010, 17:07:42 »
Guys the rosy picture you are painting sounds good on paper but until the big video game companies start seriously churning out single player support for multi player games (coop) we are nothing more than a headache and they really don't want to hear from us.  It certainly doesn't play well into the whole off line/digital rights management trend.  Flip the coin and the same excuses are given when we ask if the single player portion of the game will include the ability to complete it using multi player (coop).  We scream at the top of our lungs, “Give us coop” and they talk, plan, lead us along and say they are going to do it but time and time again they fall short and give us some technical explanation as to why they couldn't do it or some marketing jargon saying time was a factor in releasing the game earlier...and so...we swallow it.  Not only swallow it but when some “anarchist” comes into the community to criticize their decisions the player base comes to the company's aid of their precious product.  I mean....wow...they  really know how to work us.

In the end it's about diverting resources to broadening the target audience to include everyone (hardcore and weekend gamers) but at minimal expense.  So they squeeze out a small turd for us to feast on and a few dip switches to control a limited AI and leave it to their customers to mold the turd into something more palatable.  It's far cheaper to simply provide content and have your paying customers fill in any one aspect of the game-play that might otherwise require some artificial intelligence that would cost the company huge money to develop and continue developing in order to keep us entertained....so they just don't bother doing it.  It's not profitable to have someone bashing away in a multi player game against costly AI and have them complaining about how stupid the AI is and demand them to fix it.

As to the whole camera concept honestly what I do on my own coop server in my living room with my friends shouldn't be limited by the philosophy of any one individual, small group....or company.  The fact is they can't fly...they have jobs and families that take precedence and are basically being told if you don't like it....get the f out of the vehicle or go play another game! Who are we hurting exactly?  In the end we aren't getting our coop games because someone is making the same sort of idealogical decision not to give it to us to suit their own gaming philosophy or marketing model.  Lately these things just sorta happen...and not everyone is clapping...but that's sort of “the way” of things lately.  Crow barring seems to have become the acceptable norm lately whether it be “electing” leaders, throwing up cameras or swallowing harmonized sales tax.  A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down and when it doesn't...shove a feeding tube down their throat.

Offline Ts4EVER

  • Banner of THeTA0123
  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7.812
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #5 on: 23-07-2010, 17:07:31 »
Errrr wat? You do realise if a company designs a game as a multiplayer game, having singleplayer in it is kind of low priority? There are tons of games out there with singleplayer focus, so vote with your wallet and buy those instead of mp games. If you don't like multiplayer games: Don't buy them instead of running to the developers demanding they include singleplayer. If they really thought they could make more money that way, they would include it.

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #6 on: 23-07-2010, 18:07:53 »
We HAVE achieved many of those things I listed, and the rest are very theoretically possible, so I dunno.. what are you saying

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #7 on: 23-07-2010, 20:07:22 »
Dude to you I'm saying thank you! You are the reason we load up this mod every other week.  You're doing the best with the tools provided...giving priority to something obviously not worth giving priority to...things that the developers of the game/mod would have included had they included you on their teams.  It's amazing what a few weekend developers can do when they don't have anyone to answer to but themselves and their own imaginations free of stipulations handed down by higher ups.  What's frustrating is less than half of the mods for BF2 even bother with coop in a big way...and there are really only two mods left that actively update content...the rest are closing up shop and of the two only one has fan based coop support.  That's  you buddy.  Has anyone noticed what happens when a mod dies? Of the mods that actually contain it 10-20 empty coop servers slowly blink out of existence.  All that work...all that content lost.   BF2 is dying and what's even more disappointing is the majority of the video game industry is moving towards downsizing technological advancements in both AI, graphics and shear scale to accommodate a non-upgradeable extremely limited hardware platform that you plug into your TV.  It's setting the video game industry technological advancement back 10 years or more while they squeeze the life out of these platforms that continue to limit the number of players on a server game by game.  When the decision was made to cut out my friends, the inept pilots and the shitty shots, that just want to have a little fun and kill some bots it just makes them sigh and say...can we play something else?

What's even more frustrating is I can't speak with my wallet because no video game company has provided us with a new single massive multi player FPS that encompass Land/Sea/Air in the last seven years...seven years?! That's twisted...it's not like we aren't crying for one.  When the wake demo hit the scene it was like the sky opened up and full sunlight shawn down on us...more so with Planetside (no bots...but who needed them).  Any idiot with a joystick accustomed to either first person or third person could jump in a plane just as easily as drive a tank.  It put everyone on an equal playing field and we whored and loved every minute of it killing each other and bots alike.  In Planetside it didn't  matter how much you sucked because with 300 people on the same server on enormous maps there's a better than average chance you will get ignored by the kill whores...so long as you stayed inside the herd or stayed away from the herd altogether completing other tasks.  On this game with these small maps and with only 64 people most of which are whoring bastards born of whoring mothers you quickly learn that the only way you are going to have fun is disconnect.  To actually make a conscious decision to not include us in your mod confuses me and confuses them.

No video game company in their right mind will ever create a game that doesn't allow it's customers the choice to use ALL of their screen.  I just don't see how limiting these options to the inexperienced masses will diminish the game play for the hard core gamers and how they choose to run their servers.  Honestly I don't think the bots give a shit one way or another how they are killed or whether hard core gamers think they should even exist.

Keep up the good work and keep navmeshing those maps because if you don't...it appears...no one else will.

Offline Ts4EVER

  • Banner of THeTA0123
  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7.812
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #8 on: 24-07-2010, 00:07:36 »
Ah, I think I misunderstood your first post, sorry.
However, I think the picture you paint of FH2 online players is not quite accurate. Since the game is comparatively hard and complex, our players tend to be college aged or older, so few of them really have time to play the game all day. This is not Call of Duty where annoying 12 year olds scream at you over voip, because they are usually bored by the slow gameplay. I myself play at most (as in when I have a lot of time/motivation) 4 hours per week, yet I never had the feeling of being inferior or totally outclassed by "pros".
I'd suggest you give normal CQ another try. Get these friends of yours together in a squad. Believe me: the advantagein numbers and communication will make you a very formidable foe, even if you mis one shot or another (;)). Or failing that, join a server alone and watch out for squads that have lots of forumers in them. Join them, stick around and you will have success. And believe me, I never ever once witnessed somebody being kicked out of a squad/berated for being "a newb" or something, if that's what you are afraid of. In fact, FH2 can get so immersive and intense that they could care less about your or their own score.
Other than that, the lack of SP in FH2 is mostly due to bad luck with SP Devs. Let's hope Remick sticks around, he already is showing a lot of promise and dove right into the new stuff ;)

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #9 on: 24-07-2010, 03:07:02 »
Wasn't really dumping on FH2 so much as I was urinating on Project Reality.  Vanilla FH2 is very playable even with what they have given us but keeping these closet Ritalin junkies happy is like watching them follow their bullets into the ground with the plane they are firing from.  ALT-F4 load up AIX...but those bots really suck.  We all play in a squad all the time except when one mysteriously disappears and  you find them stabbing you in the back with a Hitler youth knife and an ice cube goes flying across the room.  Everyone is on the floor crying tears.  We have fun for a few hours but that's it for the week and playing a game roughly 45 times a year for a few hours? we won't be visiting any multi player servers anytime soon.  Learning curve is just too high and being humiliated is only fun if you're stoned.  What ever happened to just having fun where everybody has an equal chance at it? ...having fun that is.

Back when you could change your in game name to anything you wanted on the fly in desert combat one of my favorite names was “I rammed you with my jet xx times” you can imagine how that went.  Then there were the old faithful “artillery aiming aids” for the ever classy pixel shooters looking to take some names with a scud.  I made a few for FH2 but publish them? HELL NO....get perma banned key and all soon as you unload the vierling into a flag on the other side of the map.  Used to be you could search out for a server with the name “rulez” in it...and get over 10 hits all full ....that's where we went....a place with no rulez.  Now it's all about kill records and “realism” and don't you dare get out of line....stop touching that equipment stop moving that vehicle.  I got news for you guys....you are looking through a Kleenex box hanging about 6 inches from your eyes and if you're really really lucky and well off....maybe even 4 inches.  This ain't the army and you're not a sailor and this is supposed to be FUN...fun without limits.

Offline Ts4EVER

  • Banner of THeTA0123
  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7.812
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #10 on: 24-07-2010, 03:07:30 »
So your idea of "equal opportunity at having fun" is acting like a dickhead and ruining the rest of the servers fun with zany antics and pixel artillery? Or am I reading this wrong?

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #11 on: 24-07-2010, 03:07:23 »
*SMILE*

Offline cannonfodder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.228
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #12 on: 24-07-2010, 08:07:16 »
...BF2 is dying...
*sigh*...I wish I had a dollar for every time I've read that in the past couple of years.

In Oz atm (4pm Sat.), the three most populated games on GameArena:

1. BF:BC2 - 185 players

2. BF2 - 164 "         "

3. TF2 - 158 "         "


  ;)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #13 on: 24-07-2010, 13:07:27 »
Look, I mainly said what I did to give a jist of what I see us doing (practically) for AI and the thinking that guides me.

We could focus on so many directions such as trying to make bots play like humans i.e sneaky.. Sure we wont get as far as we have now, but also, we wont get the WW2 feel we get now... maybe, there's something good there too, but we need to find one direction and stick to it...

A small addendum, while running as fast as we can in this direction, I'd be happy if, unlike past permutations of AI in FH2, we don't introduce as many issues and bad features as we fix or improve.

Offline DirArtillerySupport

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: SP/COOP philosophy and thoughts
« Reply #14 on: 24-07-2010, 19:07:24 »
Bah! screw the number of players.  If multi player game play is near perfect the player base will remain constant and even grow regardless of how much time has passed.  Nostalgia is a very strong attractant.  It's the players that entertain each other and the game is only the arena.  The only thing going to draw them away is a bigger better arena with more stuff.  What's gone or “dying” is BF2 mod development....which means it's pretty much over.  Boredom and melancholy are just a few steps away.  BF2 is losing it's hair and the talented mod devs are fading away introducing their kids to dreaded babysitter consoles...like the traitorous scum they are.  May your kids die of blood clots in the thumbs!

What ever you do with the bots don't bother focusing on things you can't fix.  Instead focus on the things that will hide the ai's imperfections and that takes an frigging artist.  Getting too tied up in technical details and troubleshooting may go completely unnoticed for the player that has no interest in reading the changlog or visiting a forum in order to appreciate your work.  Mind you if the game crashes no one is playing anything.  You could probably start by simply deleting the offending piece of equipment or detail and move on from there.  My favorite tried and true troubleshooting technique is method of elimination.  You can always put it back later once you trip over the reason but focusing on it for days and weeks could keep you from developing more noticeable and appreciated details...but don't ask us because we aren't artists and probably don't even appreciate art when we do trip over it.

Speaking of art something that blows me away to this day was how the hell did the NAW guys get that shoulder launched Javelin missile to lock on, fire straight up in the air and attack the target....from the top?! Too bad their last release caused massive crashing on half the machines it encountered and with little or no interest in troubleshooting the mod is now dead...troubleshooting forums are dead...it was released in April with 4 enormous map packs.  The NAW team's solution was really quite conventional and really quite useless.  Fill out this form and we'll get back to you.  I love mods more than anything but fill out a form? FU.