Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: LtJimmy on 01-11-2009, 06:11:49
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I'm of the opinion that the 3.7 cm Pak 36 is an under-used weapon in game (in both senses of the word: under-used because it's next to useless in a fight and under-used in that it doesn't appear in many maps). However I think I may have come across something that would get a lot more use out of it and give it a new lease on life.
Gentlemen, behold:
(http://www.germanmilitaria.co.uk/pics/stielgra41.jpg)
The German 37mm Stielgranate 41 'Pak 35 / 36'
"The 37mm Pak 36 anti-tank gun, for example was formidable enough in 1936, but by 1942 it was of very little use against anything more then a light tank or an armoured car. To permit it to remain in service and do some useful work, it was provided with a 'spigot bomb' shaped-charge projectile which could deal with virtually anything on tracks. The 3.7cm Steilgranate 41 consisted of a large shaped-charge warhead about six inches in diameter, with a long tail rod. Around this tail rod was a sleeve carrying four fins. The dimensions of this device were such that when the tail rod was slipped into the muzzle of the 3.7cm Pak 36 gun, the sleeve and fins fitted snugly around the barrel and warhead was in front of the muzzle.
A special cartridge was provided and the sights suitably adapted, and the projectile could be fired with adequate accuracy up to a practical range of about 300 metres or an absolute maximum range of about 800 metres. The warhead contained 2.42kg (5.34lb) of a TNT/hexogen composition and could blow a sizable hole through 180mm of armour plate at any range, which was quite sparkling performance for 1942. This device saw quite a lot of use..."
Hogg, Ian V., German Secret Weapons of the Second World War2nd Ed., London: Greenhill Books, 2002.
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/65860-2/pak36-camo)
Obviously I realize that you can't implement the actual reloading animation due to the restrictions of the Battlefield 2 engine however I thought a neat compromise would be that once the weapon has been fired to have a reload sound of a guy shuffling/walking/moving to the front of the gun, metal sliding against metal (the shaped charge being fitted to the gun barrel), the standard Pak 36 reloading sound, and finally the shaped charge actually appearing on the end of the barrel.
In terms of ingame implementation I'd recommend Normandy maps for now and it being a mobile weapon rather then a static implacement.
(http://www.germanmilitaria.co.uk/pics/pk41stiel.jpg)
[EDIT] Just found that it is featured in the 'Carentan' episode of 'Band of Brothers', not that I'm saying that's a legitimate excuse/reason for it to be ingame.
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4792/vlcsnap2009110118h39m54.png)
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3739/vlcsnap2009110118h40m27.png)
Questions/Comments?
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The Stielgranate 41, which was mounted on the Pak36/41, was actually incredibly common amoungst Fallschirmjager units, and is the Pak gun I command. The warhead was essentially a Panzerfaust head, and yes, had to be manually inserted into the tube from the front.
All in all, I think it would be awesome to have, and would only need a reskinned Pak36 with longer barrel and the rocket on the tip, which could fire out from it, disappearing from it, then when reloaded reappear at the tip, much like the rockets on the Stuka zu Fuss.
So really I guess I'm just saying that any map where you have the FJ in Normandy against tanks, that thing should be there.
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I love this idea and I agree that it should be mobile since the short range of the projectile requires you to ambush the enemy tanks. If it is static you can't ambush for obvious reasons.
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...So really I guess I'm just saying that any map where you have the FJ in Normandy against tanks, that thing should be there.
I wouldn't confine it to just FJ maps, imagine the sheer awesomeness of its presense on Lebisey, the perfect map for it to be on considering the close confines of the map. I propose that if implemented, a mobile version could spawn here:
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/Lebisey/Lebisey_05.jpg)
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It definately has my vote. The Stielgranate would really increase the Pak36s usefullness.
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plus it looks so damn awesome on it.
I would LOVE to have a mobile Pak36
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seconded
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Suggestion approved...but,what maps could use it?
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püpchen?
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Suggestion approved...but,what maps could use it?
My map, for one ;D
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Suggestion approved...but,what maps could use it?
While they are not used in FH2. Pak 36 and Pak 38 where still common on the Westren front.
They where so called retired yes, but if you have a gun wich can still pierce a tank its armor somewhere, and you have shortages of equipment, you will use it
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PaK38 isn't that bad actually.
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PaK38 isn't that bad actually.
No it issent. Surely it needs a couple of shots on the frontal armor of a sherman or a cromwell, but its still pretty combat effective
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püpchen?
The pupchen would also be cool, but was far more rare then the Pak36 with Sthg41 :P And yes, it could be on other maps, I'm just saying that ANY map that had FJ and has enemy tanks, it should be in. As for mobility, it def should be faster to move then the Pak40, having handled those, I know that with just a 4 man crew you can run with it.
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Ye, Atm all movable AT guns have the same speed.
A 6Pounder should be easier and faster to pull then a Pak40 imo
And a Pak38 faster to pull then a 6Pounder
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Fast PaK 36 eh?
I can imagine myself scouting for enemy movements behind the lines, suddenly I see 2 vehicles coming towards me. I pull out my binocs to see them better and sigh for relief. Its just Kübbelwagen and Pak 36 racing against eachother ;D
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lmao, not that fast. More like halfway between walking and sprint.
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lmao, not that fast. More like halfway between walking and sprint.
Uh, so while pushing an AT gun around you walk faster than you normally would? Riiiiight....
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lmao, not that fast. More like halfway between walking and sprint.
Uh, so while pushing an AT gun around you walk faster than you normally would? Riiiiight....
If you want to go even faster, push the pak into the rail roads to travel safe and fast. ;D
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The momentum built up from getting something like that moving would inevitably gain a fair amount of speed, even on flat or slightly inclined land. Like a roller coaster.
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lmao, not that fast. More like halfway between walking and sprint.
Uh, so while pushing an AT gun around you walk faster than you normally would? Riiiiight....
No, I'm refering to the fact that when you're actually moving an AT gun, you technically move it backwards, with two crewmen holding the trails up, and two pushing the shield/pressing down on the barrel to help balance the load. When you do that, you can pick it up and sprint with it, I remember doing that fo about 200 yards at one battle when we were retreated. We picked it up and ran with it.
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No, I'm refering to the fact that when you're actually moving an AT gun, you technically move it backwards, with two crewmen holding the trails up, and two pushing the shield/pressing down on the barrel to help balance the load. When you do that, you can pick it up and sprint with it, I remember doing that fo about 200 yards at one battle when we were retreated. We picked it up and ran with it.
I would like 2 crews in AT guns now then. 1 but you cant sprint just push the thing like you do in FH2. 2 crew then you can sprint with it and load faster.
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Ok, then who is gonna volunteer to sit in a position and do nothing. Sorry, but games don't work like real life.
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Ok, then who is gonna volunteer to sit in a position and do nothing. Sorry, but games don't work like real life.
I played WW2 Online, around 1 month of trial. And the guy could spot targets for me and move the gun. Dunno maybe the loader/spotter could gain points.
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WW2 Online, sure. That's a MMOFPS. FH2 is not a MMORPS. It is just a first person shooter based on realism. You are not going to find someone who wants to sit there, unless they just go AFK, grab a drink, and do something else.
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WW2 Online, sure. That's a MMOFPS. FH2 is not a MMORPS. It is just a first person shooter based on realism. You are not going to find someone who wants to sit there, unless they just go AFK, grab a drink, and do something else.
I would to help my team like that if I could. If I were to design a game I would create some anims to the loader, stretching to grab a fresh round, insert it in the breech and lock it, then patting the gunner in the back to say its ready to fire or simply yell LOADEN!
But yeah I dont expect people to be that responsive to team work.
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The momentum built up from getting something like that moving would inevitably gain a fair amount of speed, even on flat or slightly inclined land. Like a roller coaster.
Sorry, but momentum is a constant speed: MV(intial)=MV(final)
AT guns should be slow to move, or faster with 2 people on it (if they added that).
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WW2 Online, sure. That's a MMOFPS. FH2 is not a MMORPS. It is just a first person shooter based on realism. You are not going to find someone who wants to sit there, unless they just go AFK, grab a drink, and do something else.
But yeah I dont expect people to be that responsive to team work.
Bingo. Your arguement is moot.
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Great to see everyone likes my idea, I just hope the Devs like it too.
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Before Toddel comes I am going to tell you that you should be happy with having already movable AT guns.
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Suggestion approved...but,what maps could use it?
My map, for one ;D
I second that
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A little something like this?
(http://www.bfewaw.com/mod/Paasky/stielgranate.png)
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yeah just like that. it almost looks like the real thing
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/PaK_36_with_Stielgranate_41_displayed_Military_Vehicle_Technology_Foundation.jpg/300px-PaK_36_with_Stielgranate_41_displayed_Military_Vehicle_Technology_Foundation.jpg)
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Just some holes in the tube now. My own picture from Munster:
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3407/panzermuseummunster046.jpg)
This also gives a nice insight about the retexture the PaK will need.
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Just some holes in the tube now. My own picture from Munster:
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3407/panzermuseummunster046.jpg)
This also gives a nice insight about the retexture the PaK will need.
In my opinion they should focus in adding a nice camo like most german pak crews did. Add some netting and leaves and is ready. I now wonder if they include this, how would be the reload time and how much of this special projectiles the Pak 36 should carry.
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I would think 2 or 3 with them, as for reload time im thinking 15 seconds at most
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a72_S-_wglc&feature=PlayList&p=14D168D560BEB6F9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22
Right at the beginning, they have the PaK on the move. Of course with a full crew it goes fast, but the thing is truly haulin'. Besides, a bunch of FH2 equipment was crewed by entire teams. They're just invisible due to coding restrictions, so the PaK36 sounds like a speedster in the ATG department. It's obviously not impressive with running standards, but it's better than tortoise speed.
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Yep, that actually is realistic, you can run that fast with just 4 guys on it, and since as you say, we already represent a full team, that's how fast it should move ;)
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I would think 2 or 3 with them, as for reload time im thinking 15 seconds at most
I would think that no more then 5 and no less then 3. If the movement speed is going to be as fast as it is shown in BoB (and from what Vm is saying) then it would be fairly easy and quick to bug out and reload at an ammo crate.
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I would think 2 or 3 with them, as for reload time im thinking 15 seconds at most
I would think that no more then 5 and no less then 3. If the movement speed is going to be as fast as it is shown in BoB (and from what Vm is saying) then it would be fairly easy and quick to bug out and reload at an ammo crate.
Yep, plus, don't really expect to get off more then 2 shots...IRL, it was basically an ambush thing. If you didn't knock out the tank, you might get one more shot. If that didn't do it, you ran like hell because otherwise you're dead.
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It could be a kit you would find next to the gun.
With it, you have 2 "rockets" a pistol and binoc and foliages on your helmet ;D .
With out the kit, the gun act as a normal pak36.
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I dont think thats possible, engine wise. Might work with restoring ammo to it
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I would think 2 or 3 with them, as for reload time im thinking 15 seconds at most
i think it should be automatic, just like the nebelwerfer, in real life i gues those rockets had to be put in manualy i gues
anyway i think this piece of equipement could be a real plus for FH2
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Arnt you guys afraid of to much concentration on the german weapons than?
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why? the germans had more different types of equipment, that was also a downside of the army, to have too much different weapons systems or too much types of different tanks.
the allies have a lot of sherman types and planes. they didnt had that much variety in vehicles but just
overwhelming numbers.
besides, this piece of equipment should only be for sertain branches of the german army, like the Fallschirmjagers.
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why? the germans had more different types of equipment, that was also a downside of the army, to have too much different weapons systems or too much types of different tanks.
the allies have a lot of sherman types and planes. they didnt had that much variety in vehicles but just
overwhelming numbers.
besides, this piece of equipment should only be for sertain branches of the german army, like the Fallschirmjagers.
but the allies also had their little gadgets like this, and the german ones are almost always added, compared to the allied one
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why? the germans had more different types of equipment, that was also a downside of the army, to have too much different weapons systems or too much types of different tanks.
the allies have a lot of sherman types and planes. they didnt had that much variety in vehicles but just
overwhelming numbers.
besides, this piece of equipment should only be for sertain branches of the german army, like the Fallschirmjagers.
but the allies also had their little gadgets like this, and the german ones are almost always added, compared to the allied one
STOP SAYING THAT! It was funny for a little while, but it's not funny anymore and simply insulting (kinda like the the LumberJack Commandos). I remember a suggestion about the Mills Bombs fired from the rifle-nade cup. That made it in game and a few Devs even said they never heard of it until someone provided pictures and Field Manual excerpts. The Allies get all kinds of nifty stuff. It just the simple fact that the Axis had more "specialized equipment" and "hey that might work, let's build it" stuff that was actually used. I'm sure some of the stuff made for Normandy that didn't quite get put to use in time for 2.2 (like your precious AVRE or the Stuart Recce in the game files) will be tearing stuff up in the next update. Hell, someone made the single most useless piece of equipment ever: The Paratrooper "Cricket" Clicker. Guess what, that's American. The only discernible use for the Cricket that I can think of is to add even more insult to injury by clicking it while you Teabag some dude's corpse. We already know that 2.2 was a rushed release so that they could get it out before everyone went on vacation, the little stuff should be here soon enough. Just be patient.
Damn, that came out more hostile than I expected. Sorry.
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You see all those special scopes for the german weapons, but do you see The more common diffrent british hand grenades?(Hawkins, Gammon)
Or the Jam tin grenade!
Or the lee-enfield with the more side mounted scope. They where also around.
Yes the germans had many rare specialised equipment, but does that mean that all of them should be added? >:(
Take this Pak36 with Stielgranate thing. This is something that Should be added. But their are other things that shouldnt be imo
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I agree
i practically all forgot about the allied kits en special shit
and hell yeah this would be a nice thing to have for the Axis
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well ofcourse it will be. The pak36 was an important Light AT gun. Just like the M6 37MM gun was for the americans. They couldnt fight the modern tanks yes, but so many where built, why not use them for other goals?
IRL Pak36's and M3 Anti tank guns where used for other purposes, like Concentrating on Light tanks or soft skinned vehicles. Or to be used against infantery.
Especialy Half-tracks where common targets for both AT guns.
And then give 2 or 3 Of these stielgrante things for the Pak36. And FH2 dev team could get the M3 ingame for the US.
This was the reason why both AT guns where kept in service
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Yep, that actually is realistic, you can run that fast with just 4 guys on it, and since as you say, we already represent a full team, that's how fast it should move ;)
If its going to be fast moving, the devs should have to remove the run-shot thing with at guns, and the gun barrel should be pointing to the ground when running, like in the BoB scene
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You see all those special scopes for the german weapons, but do you see The more common diffrent british hand grenades?(Hawkins, Gammon)
Or the Jam tin grenade!
Or the lee-enfield with the more side mounted scope. They where also around.
Yes the germans had many rare specialised equipment, but does that mean that all of them should be added? >:(
Take this Pak36 with Stielgranate thing. This is something that Should be added. But their are other things that shouldnt be imo
Jam-Tin grenade? I think your mixing up "Africa" with "Gallipoli". We only used Jam tin bombs in the Great War, mate. Anyway, the No. 74 was a relativly rarely used grenade, and it's one of the current Allied staples in the game!
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You see all those special scopes for the german weapons, but do you see The more common diffrent british hand grenades?(Hawkins, Gammon)
Or the Jam tin grenade!
Or the lee-enfield with the more side mounted scope. They where also around.
Yes the germans had many rare specialised equipment, but does that mean that all of them should be added? >:(
Take this Pak36 with Stielgranate thing. This is something that Should be added. But their are other things that shouldnt be imo
Jam-Tin grenade? I think your mixing up "Africa" with "Gallipoli". We only used Jam tin bombs in the Great War, mate. Anyway, the No. 74 was a relativly rarely used grenade, and it's one of the current Allied staples in the game!
the jam tin was actually joke :p
but the hawkins wassent, it was infact used by US paratroopers aswel
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Yep, that actually is realistic, you can run that fast with just 4 guys on it, and since as you say, we already represent a full team, that's how fast it should move ;)
If its going to be fast moving, the devs should have to remove the run-shot thing with at guns, and the gun barrel should be pointing to the ground when running, like in the BoB scene
I think the fix could be making it so that it only goes that fast when you're going backwards. ;)
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would indeed be nice, though still the problem with shooting while moving. it just dosnt make any sense
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Well. if you're trying to move forward quickly, you'd have to turn it around and drive backwards, using the crtl view to see where you're going. Of course, this means you wouldn't be able to shoot at the enemy much :P
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It is so simple people... Remember the Marder III before FH2.2? Seat #1: Driver, Seat#2: Gunner. Put a 5-10sec DelayBeforeUse and hey presto!
Well, except if it was double manned. But that doesn't happen often.
Another way would be to make the aim of the gun go haywire if you move it, and stabilize in a few seconds after stopping. Should have the crosshairs with that though.
Then ther's Camera Shake while you move. Make that large and the stabilizing time long.
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why? the germans had more different types of equipment, that was also a downside of the army, to have too much different weapons systems or too much types of different tanks.
the allies have a lot of sherman types and planes. they didnt had that much variety in vehicles but just
overwhelming numbers.
besides, this piece of equipment should only be for sertain branches of the german army, like the Fallschirmjagers.
but the allies also had their little gadgets like this, and the german ones are almost always added, compared to the allied one
boys carrier, piat carrier :-[
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You think that 3rd person animations would be possible? Instead of just seeing a crouched guy moving the at gun with his mind? I know it must be hardm but it will add a nice feeling to the game.
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would be nice to have a Firing position and a pushing/dragging, position in at guns :)
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would be nice to have a Firing position and a pushing/dragging, position in at guns :)
Guess it will take too much work adding proper animations. Imagine how many player bones would require for a natural or at least robotic anims.
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You think that 3rd person animations would be possible? Instead of just seeing a crouched guy moving the at gun with his mind? I know it must be hardm but it will add a nice feeling to the game.
BF2 only allows animating the arms. And even then you can specify where the fists are and what angle the elbows have.
I guess it could be done. But it would be so ridiculously hard and useless there's no point.
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just make it like any other movable pak, then its all the same and playable
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or just do not care about animation? i was just suggesting two positions so that we can kill that assault gun we have now :P
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hehe do we have a confirmation that this piece will be included? ;D
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hehe do we have a confirmation that this piece will be included? ;D
New content always makes everyones happy.
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(http://www.bfewaw.com/mod/Paasky/pak35_sp41.jpg)
*Ninja Disappear* News Update to Follow.
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Nice work! You shoved it up way too deep though.. Thin part of barrel should also be visible 50% of thin part inside the projectile and 50% visible.
Sexual pun intended.
Anyway, new texture and done!
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8)
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Also, it needs to be the Pak36/41, which had a retooled, longer barrel.
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It needs a nice camo, or at least some leaf camo:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/Yustax/pak36-camo.jpg)
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yeah or some nice decoration of flowers ::)
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It needs a nice camo, or at least some leaf camo:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/Yustax/pak36-camo.jpg)
Agreed, well, all the german AT guns need that camo tbh....
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Also, it needs to be the Pak36/41, which had a retooled, longer barrel.
Give me two clear pictures of old vs new & how deep the SG41 should be and it shall be fixed.
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(http://www.inert-ord.net/rod02h/stielgr/Stielgranate_l.jpg)
For the barrel, its a very small amount of lengthening... L45 to L47, afaik.
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Is that 2cm in the thick part or at the end?
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End, and its not cm, its calibers IIRC :P Otherwise the L71 gun on the panther is less then a meter long:P
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(http://www.inert-ord.net/rod02h/stielgr/Stielgranate_l.jpg)
For the barrel, its a very small amount of lengthening... L45 to L47, afaik.
The grenade in the model is quite big too, I think that I resize wouldnt be too bad. That picture clearly states that.
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End, and its not cm, its calibers IIRC :P Otherwise the L71 gun on the panther is less then a meter long:P
Well, maybe it isn't cm, but L is the length (ex 50mmL42 & 50mmL60)
Yes, looking at it now the head of the SP41 is too fat...
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75 mm L/70 <=> 75 mm * 70 = 5 250 mm
Meaning that the Panther's KwK 42 is 5.25 meters long.
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Ah, thanks for clearing that.
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this thng has to be included!!!! :P
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Dick addition - not a big deal ;D
Man question - correct coding. It's like a giant rifle grenade.
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i think the Pak 36 would be fun to fire upon infantery aswel now with that thing
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Well from my understanding it is a heat shell so it wouldnt be near as effective as an he shell....
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Correct, Tiemann. Its purely an anti-tank shell, very little shrapnel produced.
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Yeah purely anti tank, thats why I think that soldier in band of heroes didnt blow up in little pieces when that thing blow up just on his feet.
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Yeah purely anti tank, thats why I think that soldier in band of heroes didnt blow up in little pieces when that thing blow up just on his feet.
but it also blew a lot of road stones around too. shards of that can be quite sharp.
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Ooopsie I meant Band of Brothers; I always mix up company of heroes and band of brothers, goddamn it.
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Ooopsie I meant Band of Brothers; I always mix up company of heroes and band of brothers, goddamn it.
you are not alone
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Ooopsie I meant Band of Brothers; I always mix up company of heroes and band of brothers, goddamn it.
You can also use the nifty "modify" button in your post and then edit, without the need of posting you meant something else than what you wrote.
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Yeah purely anti tank, thats why I think that soldier in band of heroes didnt blow up in little pieces when that thing blow up just on his feet.
No, that is what is known as a "TV show", in real life he would have been killed by either the small amount of shrapnel that, at that range, would kill, or by the concussion rupturing his insides.
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in my opinion this version still has to be released :P ;D
(http://www.germanmilitaria.co.uk/pics/stielgra41.jpg)